Guild Wars 2

so i’ve been messing with various classes to get an idea on what i wanna do and the most recent one is the engineer. i looked through the forums and youtube and even though ppl said that turrets arent very useful due to the cd and stuff like that but i thought it cant be that bad, and i really wanted to make a turret engi and stand by them with the rifle and own stuff.
So i got my engi to lvl 20 and got the 3rd utility slot and 30% dmg reduction for turrets.
So off i went to find a champion that was low levelled ( think i went to troll champion)
and it was there and a few peeps were standing around not wanting to attack it.
i went straight to it, plunked down my thumper turret, used the rifle knockback skill to get some distance and planted the rifle and rocket turret( i did take my time to go farm skill points to get the rocket turret) and the gangbang started.
First thing that went wrong occured right at the start of the battle, the troll IGNORED my thumper, me and everyone else who was hitting it, walked over and smacked my rifle turret, it went down in 1 hit, then it went to the rocket turret and did the same thing, finally it moved back to the thumper which mananged to hold it off for a bit before dying…

so…. there is really no hope for a turret build? and what the kitten is with the AI of mobs?

I find most game developers have a blind spot when it comes to destructible/dispellable sources of damage.

What I mean is, in WoW, Blizz devs really didn’t “get” DoTs (Damage Over Time). The difference between a normal attack and a DoT is that with normal attack, you press a button and it does X damage, right now. With a DoT, you press a button and it begins to slowly tick X damage over N seconds. If the target dies, it’ll do less than X damage. If the target gets cleansed/dispelled, removing the DoT, it’ll do less than X damage. And so on, and so forth. Essentially, where normal attack, if it lands, guarantees X damage, with DoT, if it lands, guarantees NOTHING.

Same in GW2, with Engineer turrets, Mesmer illusions, etc. There’s a huge difference between a normal attack, like Blurred Frenzy, and plunking down a turret. Putting a turret down does NOT guarantee any damage. The turret can die, target can move out of range, out of line of sight, etc. So whatever X damage the turret is designed to do, might never happen. Same with illusions – this is especially glaring in PvE. I cast an illusion, like Illusionary Warden, it spawns right next to the mob, and mob immediately 1-shots it before it can even start its attack cycle. Zero damage done. Ability on cooldown for the next 20 seconds. No illusion to burn with a shatter.

Classic design flaw, really. Yet to see a game where devs got this kind of mechanic “right”. Usually takes years. Usually because they keep trying to re-invent the wheel instead of taking a proven formula that works and that took a decade to polish out to that state in another game. Sad, really.

lol, funny story Kitai. I never tried a turret build in pve. I have tried one in wvw/spvp, and I wasn’t really big on it.

When turrets do work, it is AMAZING I must say, but yeah, they leave alot to be desired. Mainly because It does infact seem like mobs rush for the turrets, I think this actually has to do with kiting.

For example, when I kite, The enemy quickly loses intreast in me cause my turrets have been plinking him, But when I stand there at tank his hits, he is much more likely to be pleased to sit on me and beat me down, sadly tanking enemys on engineer is not fun.

Toolkit/Rocket/Rifle was what I ran with supply drop and healing turret. It is neat when it works, or when there is alot of other attention to the enemys.

Sabb kinda hit the nail on the head, Turrets can potentially do the most damage with the least amount of effort, in the perfect situation, while a skill does X damage, the turret does Damage for its entire life, And it will live aslong as its hp lets it. So if skill does X damage, but rifle turret does 0.25X with a rate of fire of 2 seconds, and the other skill has 25 second CD, that means it 10 seconds, a rifle turret out damages it, and by the time its CD is up, the turret has done well over twice the damage, resulting in higher DPS, But as stated, this requires turrets to be able to be left to do their job, which they sadly generally are not left to do heh.

Doesn’t appear very smart to attempt to start a discussion against a build in general based on one single fight with one single mob.

I have used turrets on tough mobs. There is a bug with the trait for now, but when it was working you can place all of your turrets by target and not drop them in front of you.

I remember pics posted with turrets placed on shrubs and other unreachable locations and threads asking if that was working as intended. The devs posted and said yes, if you can get a turret there, then it belongs there. Picking your ground and placing your turrets in strategic locations can make all of the difference in the world.

If you run up and plop your rifle turret right in front of the mob, you have no real reason to complain if he destroys it. What does your comments about the thumper turret have to do with what happened to the riffle turret? Did you have some expectation that the thumper turret gets aggro by default? If you lay all your hopes into assume you can guess where a champions agro will go, you can’t hardly be upset if it turns out you made an inaccurate assumption.

coglin.1496:

Doesn’t appear very smart to attempt to start a discussion against a build in general based on one single fight with one single mob.

I have used turrets on tough mobs. There is a bug with the trait for now, but when it was working you can place all of your turrets by target and not drop them in front of you.

I remember pics posted with turrets placed on shrubs and other unreachable locations and threads asking if that was working as intended. The devs posted and said yes, if you can get a turret there, then it belongs there. Picking your ground and placing your turrets in strategic locations can make all of the difference in the world.

If you run up and plop your rifle turret right in front of the mob, you have no real reason to complain if he destroys it. What does your comments about the thumper turret have to do with what happened to the riffle turret? Did you have some expectation that the thumper turret gets aggro by default? If you lay all your hopes into assume you can guess where a champions agro will go, you can’t hardly be upset if it turns out you made an inaccurate assumption.

So the target ground turret trait is borked? and when it wasnt, you could put turrets on rocks and stuff? thats pretty cool actually, good tips for when they fix it haha.

You still can put turrets in those locations. That is not the issue with the trait right now. The issue is that the trait doesn’t work with some of the turrets for some bug of a reason. Thus, there are a few turrets it does effect and a few it doesn’t effect at all.

so coglin, are you saying that turrets can possibly do well? and i’m not really angry with the mob blowing my turret thing, its just that the first turret to hit it was the thumper, me and the other guys, i had used that knockback skill and got myself knocked back quite a bit too and i place the rifle and rocket turret back there, so what confuses me is that the mob chose to ignore the thumper, me and everyone else and head for the rifle turret which has barely started to shoot, oh and i traited into 30% dmg reduction first so i cant get that deploy turret thingy yet

Yes, I am suggesting that when used with traits and playing in a style in which you work with your turrets and focusing on their benefits they can be very usefull.

so what about the mob ai thingy, is there something that determines which turret they strike first? cuz i dun get why it went for rifle turret first. The thumper was closest to it and has already gotten a couple of hits off and the rocket turret is by far the greater threat and all 6-7 of us were smacking it the whole time so i dunno… the mob priority confuses me

The mob priority confuses everyone. How many times have you been with a group and the mob run right past the melee guys every time, ignoring them? Or ranged attack a mob 3 times, yet it targets and attacks the closest guy to it, who never attacked it at all. That is the whole issue really. It appears various mobs aggro for various reasons. Until someone really determines solid facts on the matter, no one really knows.

well i guess i’ll keep going with this turret engi then, its nice to know it might be good and i hope anet does something about em turrets, thanks for all the replies guys

edit erm i forgot to add this but is rifle the best for turret engi? cuz i rarely see other engineers with rifles

I have no problem with turrets but I get the OP point. I guess I just accepted how they work and planned accordingly. I use my rifle turret as more like an area effect spell. I dopr my turret and immediately have it do automatic fire. If I make it through a full 5s of automatic fire I consider it good and anything after that is a bonus.

I also use my rifle turret as OMG I need to get away skill. I will hit my med kit then drop a turret. Almost always the mob(s) go directly after the turret to give that wee bit-o-time to get away to heal and bring back the pain.

My current build is for pistol/shield turret and I am having a blast.

Warhammer Online had a pvp class (also called engineer). They had just their rifle and turrets.

What they did was give the engineer a really nice damage buff of 20% when in range of their turrets. It took 20 sec to build to max, but was a great idea.

So maybe here do something similar. Or have it be 5% per turret that is out. Along those lines..

I run pistol / shield and use turrets / supply crate as my slot skills. I’ve survived fights that I thought for sure I was going to lose. I like to spread my turrets out and kite mobs around due to the fact that yes, rifle and rocket turrets are made out of cardboard. But, over charging the rocket and thumper turrets knocks foes down, which when combined with the magnetic shield knockback and the time they spend running between turrets it’s usually spaced out enough that I can get my turrets out again after the cd. I’m not putting in one of those “I’m pro” segments lol, just adding in how they work for me.

Forgot to add, my engi is very defensive with a pile of condition damage.

shield huh…. hmm never ever thought of that one… could be interesting to try all the weapon combinations, thanks for the tips
oh and what turrets do you guys usually run with? i am sure i want thumper and rocket but i cant choose between the other 3

I’ve found that in most cases, a turret I place out of reach will just get the ‘invulnerable’ message on every shot, even though the enemy in question was attacking me or another turret.

And yeah… 30% damage reduction is some kind of joke. 60% still wouldn’t help anything but the thumper stand a decent chance of surviving anything. The auto repair would only help them repair between attacks or something if I was defending… but they don’t live that long if they were taking damage anyway, and most of the time I will want to move them then, so self repairing is redundant.

And manual repairs to them… um… yeah, also utterly useless if the turret is actually under attack. I’d be more likely to save it by beating the enemy with the spanner than trying to fix the turret.

Rocket turret is by far the strongest turret. But I’d go net turret together with thumper aand rocket. It gives you more control on the battlefield. If someone gets bonked away by the thump overcharge th netturret fires it’s snares while the rocket turret spams rockets and you keep firing!

Rocket turret is pretty sweet tbh. Overcharge it immediately on deploying, you get two 2 second AoE knockdowns spaced 4 seconds apart. That, in and of itself, makes the turret almost worthwhile. Add to that the AoE damage+AoE burning damage (granted, neither scale with power or condition damage), and your looking at a bit over 2000 total damage per rocket every 4 seconds.

Granted, the 60s cooldown on both the turret and the toolbelt are significant downsides, but imo, having double aoe knockdown + decent damage on a 60s cooldown is worthwhile.

Net Turret is nice, especially given that 3/7 classes don’t have dedicated immobilize breakers, but I prefer rocket turret due to its decent damage + cc combo, although net turret has the better toolbelt imo.

Leveling up I also farmed for crafting mats and found a bug that after 30+ minutes you lose the special attack of the turret, although you get back the toolbelt skill instead of being able to explode the turret. Only thing can do then is to manually pick up the turret(for the CD reduction) and put the turret back down. After 30+ minutes! Darn.

Actually you can just place the turret again (the old one dies) and you can use its ability / make it explode. Picking it up makes it worse, because then you have the c/d.

Do the turrets have a level? I am new to the game but not at all new to MMORPGs(Everquest being my first in march of 2000). And in many MMOs somethings that are set down are by default level 1. And by nature of many agro mechanics in games a KOS NPC will go for the lowest level target first due to wider agro range.

In short do we know if a turret has the same level as the person who placed it? if its somehow by default a level 1 entity, it might have a wider natural agro radius.

Turrets scale with level, so a turret from a level 80 is much, much stronger than a turret from a level 40. However, they do not scale with attributes.

hmm so i guess the utility skills for a turret build should be thumper, rocket and 1 other turret depending on the situation with supply drop for elite and heal turret as heal, and i tried pistol/shield, its kinda odd to use but i think i like it so thanks Shaunz and nepocrates for suggesting a weapon that i completely did not think of :P
So turrets arent so bad after all but they do need some love from devs, anet please

I run with turrets and grenades in PvE and it works really well. I think the thing to realize is that you can’t get too attached to them, they are not permanent fixtures. They are not so much for causing damage as they are for causing delay …

I use rifle, rocket and healing turrets plus supply drop for emergencies. But the general idea is to pull in some mobs, drop a turret (type depends on specific situation) and then – in the precious few seconds the turret buys you – because the mobs are not attacking you – you pelt those suckers with ‘nades, drop some cc on them (nets, etc). By the time they get to you they’re already dead… and if not, drop another turret, rinse and repeat!

I don’t know why there is so much hate for turrets. There are no bad turrets, only bad turret tactics.

I prefer if mobs are attacking me when I kite with ‘nades. All they do is run at me, very predictably, and I’ve got gadgets or elixirs to keep me safe.

I run with grenades/thumper/rocket/supply drop.

Very Important: Keep in mind that when you go explosive on rockets, it changes from a direct-fire mode to a ballistic-arc mode. At point black, the effect is negligible, but the further away the target is from the turret, the higher the arc becomes and the longer the travel time. In small enclosed spaces, this could result in the rocket impacting the ceiling and wasting the shots, so watch the environment and situation.

For my tactics, turrets aren’t really a primary damage source, but a tool for controlling battles. If things start getting out of hand, I drop a thumper and see if the mob will focus that instead (don’t thump it, you want the mob ON the turret, not away from it and loose). If that doesn’t work, drop rocket point blank and knock them flat with explosives, let that run out, then drag it to the thumper for a knockback. That should have bought a few precious seconds and the rocket is well on its way towards a second volley already. If things jump into the express handbasket to hell, drop the crate for an extra stun, and hopefully the extra random turrets provide additional damage/immobilize/pull hate.

Turrets work great in Story missions and DEs where you have choke points and wave action. Drop the thumper in front or in a choke, let the mobs pile on it for a couple seconds, then start raining grenades on them. Keep the rocket in back and trigger explosives when the big mob arrives to keep the thumper alive longer. Sometimes for veteran mobs, I run up, drop a thumper at its feet, and roll away for distance. Give it a couple seconds to work its magic and rain grenades. Depending on how confident I am, I may or may not bother with dropping rocket near myself. Pop explosive if I’m worried about stretching the thumper’s life out, or if it runs up to me.

Turrets in general, and thumper in particular are also great for drawing attention when running away. Drop it while running, and don’t look back. If it hasn’t sacrificed itself for you in ~10 seconds, detonate it so you restart the timer.

Side note: turrets seem to track the target closest to them. They also can target destructible objects which seem to have a placeholder in the world even when they are not currently present. Combining the two causes some very frustrating situations where turrets are virtually useless unless utilized at near point blank range, or away form where you would ideally have deployed them, so be aware of the environmental impacts and watch what they are shooting at.

Dice Dragon.4326:

coglin.1496:

Doesn’t appear very smart to attempt to start a discussion against a build in general based on one single fight with one single mob.

I have used turrets on tough mobs. There is a bug with the trait for now, but when it was working you can place all of your turrets by target and not drop them in front of you.

I remember pics posted with turrets placed on shrubs and other unreachable locations and threads asking if that was working as intended. The devs posted and said yes, if you can get a turret there, then it belongs there. Picking your ground and placing your turrets in strategic locations can make all of the difference in the world.

If you run up and plop your rifle turret right in front of the mob, you have no real reason to complain if he destroys it. What does your comments about the thumper turret have to do with what happened to the riffle turret? Did you have some expectation that the thumper turret gets aggro by default? If you lay all your hopes into assume you can guess where a champions agro will go, you can’t hardly be upset if it turns out you made an inaccurate assumption.

So the target ground turret trait is borked? and when it wasnt, you could put turrets on rocks and stuff? thats pretty cool actually, good tips for when they fix it haha.

Go ahead and give it a try. If the place truly is “unreachable” (cannot be accessed easily via pathfinding) by a PvE target, the target becomes invincible to all your damage (that’s both YOU and your turrets) until you lose aggro. Also, they will still aggro to you. So while you can’t touch it, the enemy will still pound your face in.

Careful what you wish for.

I’ve tried turrets both in pve and pvp extensively…

PvE is generally mediocore,dies easily against hardhitting mobs or AoEs(traits is not very helpful on turrets),if not,very powerful dps overall,cooldown draws it back quite alot especially when mobs relocate to a unreachable range.Rifle,rocket,thumpet for power,rocket and flame turrets for condition built.

PvP is where it shines quite abit on holding position,net turrets are absolute hindrance to enemies,rocket turrets knock down when activated,flame blinds,rifle is meh…but decent range.Didn’t try thumpet kitten range,activate skill might be useful.

I still went back to grenadier/elixer with berserker set afterall ,easier,long range high dps with decent CC.

Kolya.8032:

Side note: turrets seem to track the target closest to them. They also can target destructible objects which seem to have a placeholder in the world even when they are not currently present. Combining the two causes some very frustrating situations where turrets are virtually useless unless utilized at near point blank range, or away form where you would ideally have deployed them, so be aware of the environmental impacts and watch what they are shooting at.

This bug drives me absolutely nuts sometimes, while it is quite situational it’s really frustrating when it happens.

@ Xocolatl

Not sure what your talking about, with the “try it” comment, I have been doing it since the beta weekends. I just don’t understand how you can sit here and claim that ranged attacks such as the ones turrets do, would not reach a mob with melee attacks.

Not sure how your playing but most folks should have enough common sense to put the turrets in range, and your complaint will not occur. As well, most folks move and dodge, to prevent that whole “face pounding” thing your talking about.

In essence, I am simply suggesting that if you have the two issues your talking about, that your doing it wrong.

I used rocket turrets, healing turrets and a rifle in PvE.

The turrets can be used for the straight damage and healing they do, or for shifting aggro away from you and onto the turrets. The rifle can be used for the straight damage it does, or for trapping the enemy with the net and or blasting him backward.

If I timed things carefully, I could exert a great deal of control over an enemy’s movements, to defend the turret from his attacks until the rockets had done their work. Or I could have the enemy chase me, turn back to attack a turret, then chase me again, then attack the other turret, then chase me again, while I whittled away his health.

If I faced two or three enemies, I could isolate one with the knockback/net, distract the other two with a turret, then concentrate on killing the isolated one.

For any event that called for players to control a point while waves of monsters attacked our position, the rocket turrets and healing turrets could simply be planted in a good spot before the enemy attackers even reached our position.

In WvW, the healing turret is still popular for group support, and some people use flame turrets to burn enemies on the other side of fortress gates, I believe.

Turrets scale with level, so a turret from a level 80 is much, much stronger than a turret from a level 40. However, they do not scale with attributes.

Ahh okay shoots down my primary theory then.

But with more gameplay I can confirm turret agro oddities. Doing a character plot quest where I had to fight one guy, The second I dropped my flame turret he instantly switched targets.

Well i didnt really get a chance to skim through the replies but what i do is i position myself before i attach bigger enemies. for example i start off with a thumper than a few paces ahead of that a rocket turret and even a little further a rifle turret. the rifle turret will go down however assuming u have a rifle let the rifle turret pull than net it when the rocket is in range when it gets in melee distance of the turret quick use the shotgun spell and overcharge when u get back on your feet net him and use spells accordingly the basic design of this is u set up ur area u defend ur thumper mainly but defend all turrets the same know when to let it go down and fight for it if the stuff hits the fan stay back by ur thumper its ur last line of defense i was fighting lvl 26s at 21 with this strat unfortunatly u cant always use the due to CD but if u really need to give it all you got this is a good strat. =)

filan.6495:

Turrets scale with level, so a turret from a level 80 is much, much stronger than a turret from a level 40. However, they do not scale with attributes.

Ahh okay shoots down my primary theory then.

But with more gameplay I can confirm turret agro oddities. Doing a character plot quest where I had to fight one guy, The second I dropped my flame turret he instantly switched targets.

If the aggro mechanics share many similarities with GW1 some enemies will prioritise low-hitpoint or low-armour targets. I would assume turrets have less health than a player so it’s quite likely this that causes the sudden shift even before the turret attacks. Mesmers have the same issue with illusions.

Personally I think this leaves certain pet-based builds at a severe disadvantage in PvE as pets in general are simply not tough enough to survive direct attacks in many situations and players have few ways to stop the mobs making a bee-line for them. They also need a damage reduction from AOE effects in my opinon.

Career engy here. I used turrets all the way to 80 and I still use turrets.

I have 20 in the toughness line, for 30% damage reduction to turrets and self-repairing turrets. This self-healing plus my rifle (knockbacks and immobilizes) keeps my turrets alive. I very, very rarely lose one unless I completely ignored it and left it to die intentionally. Usually I finish my fight, scoop up the turret with E, and move on.

I don’t use them as tanks, that’s for sure. I don’t even use them for grabbing aggro or delaying a fight. They’re additional DPS sources and the rockets are good for interrupts and knockdowns.

Basic strategy…
1. Lay down Rifle Turret (it recharges FAST, so it’s good to have alongside slower turrets) and Rocket Turret, spaced a little distance apart.
2. Open fire. Juice up the turrets with their overcharges.
3. Enemy comes at you and gets repeatedly KD’d by the rocket turret. When it eventually gets close enough, Blunderbuss, point blank Jump Shot, Overcharged Shot to knock it back, Net Shot to immobilize.
4. Later, rinse, repeat until dead. Scoop up turrets with E and move on.

Did the fight already start? No problem, circle around the edge of the fray dropping your Rifle and Rocket turrets. Drop a supply crate on the veteran/champion’s head to seriously tilt the battle in your favor. I don’t think twice about jumping a veteran anymore and I contribute heavily to veterans, as my turrets plink away at the midrange without going down.

It’s not facerolling ownage like a GS Warrior or anything like that, but it’s extremely viable in PVE and has gotten me far.

Turrets can work.

The problem is, you have to give up a lot of other stuff to make em work.

• Spec down the Inventions traits
  Not always desirable, as most want damage-damage-damage.
  - You at least need the Autotool Installation trait if you want your turret to be more then minor support.

• Utilize the Tool kit.
  That’s if you want to be the trench-warfare kitten who just laughs as enemies get mowed down from a distance.
  - I’ve yet to see an engie wielding a wrench, so it doesn’t seem all that popular.

Turret-focused Engies are meant to be supportive style players who stay in the back line, and work their Mortar or aim their Supply Crate.

Most people don’t see this style as their first choice, so naturally turrets seem subpar.

That goes for any utility category heavy build.

All turret builds – you have to give up a lot of other stuff to make em work.

All gadget build – you have to give up a lot of other stuff to make em work.

All elixir build – you have to give up a lot of other stuff to make em work.

All kit build – you have to give up a lot of other stuff to make em work.

The short of it is, I agree with Dream to an extent. Turrets are great free hands damage and control, but do little when you need a stun breaker or condition removal.

You can specialize in turrets without FILLING your bar with turrets, though.

My current approach comes at engineering three ways simultaneously:

1. My weapon, either rifle or pistol depending on if I want crowd control or conditions, with a slew of proc-on-crit traits. These also transfer over well to flamethrower. This is my primary direct means of damage and while I don’t do insane burst damage I do more than enough to put things down before they put me down and to keep control over the fight.

2. Slot 7, which I leave open for either Elixr B (self buffing) or Flamethrower (terrific AOE when doing events with groups) or an Elixr for condition removal if things are getting rough out there. If I’m grouped and we’re good for mitigation, I can throw another turret in here instead (but flamethrower’s usually better).

3. Finally, 8 and 9 are Rifle Turre tand Rocket Turret respectively, using my Inventions traits (30% damres and self-healing turrets).

I’m not giving up a lot to use turrets. My other traits focus on dealing damage and keeping me alive. Engineers are a class that don’t need to give up much because they can be a jack of all trades, excelling at nothing but capable at everything.

I feel that Healing Turret is in a good place right now, I think that Thumper Turret is alright (knocking people off points and decent AoE damage over time with a button for instant blast finisher is ok IMO.), but the rest need something more. I just feel underpowered slotting them, even Net Turret dies too easy for me to tun it and not feel handicapped though I do legitimately want to run it for the crowd control. It makes me sad sometimes.

Well my comment was meant to be sarcastic and seems some missed the point: my turrets lasted for well over 30 mins, I even afk’d to use the bathroom or root around in the kitchen.

Currently I’m mainly in wvw and not using turrets too much. Working for the rifle slayer achievement. However, I still use the thumper turret. Lay it down, send a bunch of bodies flying in the air and then blow it up for more damage. It’s saved my butt many times while getting chased by a mob of angry foes. Use the thumper turret as I’m running away, trigger it’s attack, Elixir B and I’m gone.

turrets are useless they pull stuff i dont want to have in Fight. In WvW on a 1vs1 my turrets pulls a bear O.o

i use a pistol/shield, although a rifle would work, and their abilities to keep the mob aggro on me and not the turret, and when it is on the turret, i try to get the aggro back on me and i continue kiting. i need the turrets to stay alive, so i put the effort to keep them alive.
but ever since i discovered grenade kits, i’ve only used grenades for mass mobs. i only ever switch to triple turrets when i’m up against ane vent boss or mass mobs where there are lots of people or a boss fight in a dungeon and i need damage or to draw aggro away from mobs chasing me or to kill stuff in an event for me that i really cbs doing so i take a dunny break and come back. but yeh, keep the champion troll aggro on you and not your turret and they should give dividends.

tl;dr: turret good if you keep them alive

in wvw i use grenades, turrets are kinda useless to the aoe everyone has. except healing. i use rocket and flame turrets behind doors so it can hit them when inside a tower/outside for extra dps when tehre are no ppl defending or when ppl are attacking the door + grenade kit so i do enough damage to hurt them.