Guild Wars 2

So is retaliation at 50% damage in WvWvW?

It just says it has been changed to spvp but I am not sure what % of full,damage that is.

Thanks.

I believe it was the same in both spvp and wvw to begin with. Confusion however, was not.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Retal: 66%
Conf: 50%

Pain in my kitten.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Pain in my kitten.

I feel your pain. My build was pretty similar to yours. With this plus boon hate given to thieves and warriors and the crappy changes made to wvw (practically still doing things that should have been implemented at release) makes me not regret taking a break from this game…

I’ll log back in to check the updates they did to rodgort and do the new living story but seriously anet… the way you run this game now…. is there no one left from the development team still running this game.. It had so much potential

yup the dawnheart build was the only fun build for guardians imo and the patch ruined it.

I have to agree these changes are too much and seem more of a knee jerk reaction by Anet. Buff 2 classes(war/theif) and neuter everyone else, I do see how they can call this “balancing”.

I’m on the fence of leaving this game and going back to wow/darkfall or just play CS or something to get rid of this terrible experience of gw2 dev team. (not all updates were terrible just they typically drop the ball on actually balancing).

I’m only angry because the only profession I care about is on its way to being pigeonholed when it comes to WvW. And since those are the only two things I care about in GW2…

Yup. 1vx was so much fun and one of my main joys of wvw. Goodbye to that.

Retaliation has been nerfed so hard since launch they might as well remove it. Anet is too busy listening to the complaining button mashers that don’t realise that with confusion / retal if you don’t hit you don’t get hurt.

Well on the bright side, I get my irl back and anet won’t get any more of my gem purchases.

I tested it out today in wvw and retal still does the same amount of damage as it has forever…uh…the only difference is that retaliation damage is now shown to you in this brown box so you are more aware of not instagibbing yourself.

That having been said, what is this sigil of energy change I hear of.

Retaliation is definitely doing less damage than before. Others have tested and reported roughly 66% of former damage. I’ve also taken note of it; pre-patch I was doing 330+ damage consistently with no Might stacks. I’m doing around 250 a tick now.

The Sigil of Energy bit was mentioned in the SOTG for April, apparently. I haven’t heard anything else about it, but it’s definitely worrying me.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

According to that, I should be doing:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=198.45+%2B+.075*1560

is 315.45 or roughly 315 damage. I have 1560 power. If you want proof I can give you a screenie of it, but I only attached the damage numbers for now.

According to the patch notes Retal does the same in sPvP and WvW. The Gw2 wiki page I linked hasn’t been edited in 2 weeks, ergo pre-patch, so yes, we’re hitting the exact same amount for retal as we were before, unless I’m missing something. And yes, I literally tested this not 5 minutes ago.

Tl;dr retal wasn’t nerfed

You’re missing something. In my videos I’m consistently hitting for 340+ with no Might and only 3 stacks of Bloodlust. Now I’m hitting for significantly less.

Watch the Asura at 0:25: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg5rF9WI6hU

And then check out the screenshot below. That’s with the exact same gear and food, add 15 stacks of Might. And the wiki hasn’t been updated for several of the patch notes.

That’s extremely odd. I think it’s a bug tbh.

I’m going to go test out my guardian in wvw, brb.

Retaliation is doing the same damage in sPvP as it was for me before in WvW.

Dafaq…

Yup

Definitely not according to the patch notes.

They “nerfed” WvW retal to sPvP levels apparently, but in reality not at all. sPvP wasn’t changed and wvw was nerfed???!?

I only recently started rolling a guardian, but my pal is 100% convinced he is doing exactly the same damage as before with retaliation.

It’s the same in sPvP, but it is absolutely nerfed in WvW. I haven’t looked in PvE.

…

341 in PvE. 226 in WvW. 66% of PvE value.

Looooool

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Retal-doing-different-damage-in-sPvP-WvW/first#post1937197

This might sound like a newb question but how do people know how much damage they are doing with retaliation? When I look at the combat log it does not list it. Is it a graphical floating number on screen?

Teamkiller.4315:

Looooool

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Retal-doing-different-damage-in-sPvP-WvW/first#post1937197

Retaliation has been nerfed in SPVP for months. Thats why it wasn’t any different in SPVP it already got nerfed in that portion of the game. It’s been 66% in spvp for ages.

Retal got nerfed in WvW because in big zerg fights, everyone having Retaliation would destroy anyone doing AoE. (Not that I mind, I hate big AoE fights). Light Fields basically made Retaliation on everyone pretty much a constant with no penalty.

It’s not a bug, they’re just starting to balance WvW/sPvP/PvE separately.

Actually, wouldn’t the nerf to WvW bring it together with sPvP instead of separately?

I’m not one to complain on these threads much …
BUT, it seems that with some of the changes to WvW related issues it must have been bring your child to work day.
Sorry Anet Devs but with the conf/retal, while I’m not saying it was a bit OP prior to the change, bringing it down to sPVP level, which is a completely different environment than WvW, was a bit much.
Arrow carts were also over the top. There are some good posts about what could have been done, I know you Devs are probably protective of your work and ideas you came up with and instituted but please, swallow your pride and give it a rework.

I played my main (guardian…) last night for the first time post-patch and got destroyed more than I have ever before in PvE or WvW; an important side note, I came to this conclusion before I hit up the forums. I say this is important because I didn’t know in advance of any nerf so my view wasn’t skewed by that. Back to the point though, I have never been downed so many times in a dungeon or any other environment on my build – it was so inordinately high that it is what pushed me to come looking to see if any changes had been made. What do you ya know? Of course there were. Why wouldn’t fix something that wasn’t broken? I have an 80 ele, thief, and guardian and the only one not completely broken in my opinion was the guardian.

i don’t think retal was ever the be-all-end-all for Guardians since the very first big nerf? i was still leveling then so correct me if i’m wrong. retal though does add a bit of gameplay, in terms of watching out for what boons your opponents have and react accordingly (use single big hits instead of multi hitting skills, etc) and vice versa, if you have retal, you can choose what shots to take from your oppoents as opposed to which ones to avoid completely, etc.. perhaps in zerg fights it was out of line, but what isn’t going to seem overpowered when you have 50v50?

seems like another band-aid “fix” at the moment. though i think it’s good they’re actively tring to balance the game. i know that it will take time, so hopfully we’ll continue to see more changes in the future.. of course, not just to the benefit of this class, but the overall big picture and longevity of the game.

I don’t get what Anet is thinking, apparently they agreed with the people who thought retaliate and confusion interfered with their button spaming.

purpleskies.3274:

I don’t get what Anet is thinking, apparently they agreed with the people who thought retaliate and confusion interfered with their button spaming.

Yeah this exactly. What they have done is very clearly an ill-thought out band aid fix.

I do seem to get the same damage in PvE and WvW, but maybe I missed something.

Meandor Berdor.5438:

I do seem to get the same damage in PvE and WvW, but maybe I missed something.

I noticed this too, after last night’s patch. I have Retals hitting for 400+

It varies against players, but I’m not sure how. I’ve noticed my retaliation hitting from the 190s to the 330s. My guess is that it now either scales to the incoming damage from an attack (which would mean uplevels and fast attackers would get hit for less per attack) or it’s mitigated by armor. I think it’s the former, but haven’t tested enough to be sure.

Irate Platypus.9318:

It varies against players, but I’m not sure how. I’ve noticed my retaliation hitting from the 190s to the 330s. My guess is that it now either scales to the incoming damage from an attack (which would mean uplevels and fast attackers would get hit for less per attack) or it’s mitigated by armor. I think it’s the former, but haven’t tested enough to be sure.

Definitely isn’t affected by armor. I was hitting people in zergs last night for the same amount across the board.

Irate Platypus.9318:

It varies against players, but I’m not sure how. I’ve noticed my retaliation hitting from the 190s to the 330s. My guess is that it now either scales to the incoming damage from an attack (which would mean uplevels and fast attackers would get hit for less per attack) or it’s mitigated by armor. I think it’s the former, but haven’t tested enough to be sure.

This sounds pretty logical. In the pvp state of the game interview the pvp devs did last week they mentioned wanting to change retaliation to react more to burst damage. It would have been nice if they explained it in the patch notes if this indeed is what they did.

Here are a few data points. Apologies for the screenshot quality; they’re screengrabs from videos.

#1: Ranger autoattack; retaliation hits for 241
#2: Guardian hammer (maybe mighty blow); retaliation hits for 326. So far so good.
#3: 3 hits on various enemies for 223 each.
#4: 3 hits on various enemies (same fight as #3) for 194 each.

I’m not sure how to explain #3 and #4 being for exactly the same amounts for multiple people if it’s based on the amount of incoming damage. Maybe there’s something more complicated going on, which would explain why the patch notes are so vague.

Irate Platypus.9318:

Here are a few data points. Apologies for the screenshot quality; they’re screengrabs from videos.

#1: Ranger autoattack; retaliation hits for 241
#2: Guardian hammer (maybe mighty blow); retaliation hits for 326. So far so good.
#3: 3 hits on various enemies for 223 each.
#4: 3 hits on various enemies (same fight as #3) for 194 each.

I’m not sure how to explain #3 and #4 being for exactly the same amounts for multiple people if it’s based on the amount of incoming damage. Maybe there’s something more complicated going on, which would explain why the patch notes are so vague.

Are you sure it wasn’t just a case of you having different amounts of Might stacks when you did each test?

With varying stacks of might I’ve seen my retal hit up to as high as 450-500 per person in wvw….think it’s affected by that person’s armor rating as well with regard to what kind of numbers to expect.

For the screenshots above, I actually had more might in the ones where I was hitting in the 200s than in the 300s. In the bigger fights we had stacked might beforehand. As they expired the damage did go down (3 points per stack), but that doesn’t explain the 326 vs 241 and such.

Further complicating this is that all of my results from yesterday show hits in the 300s again. There’s a thread in the wvw forum that thinks the change was rolled back.

edit: one possibility is that the ones showing reduced damage had protection up and there never was a change in the first place. That would explain how we all arrived at that 33% reduction number.

What I noticed in WvW is that NPCs have the PvE value applied and if hit by players it has the sPvP value (33% reduction) .

I’m still relatively fearsome on my Dawnheart-esque Guardian. I have only been beaten in 1v1 by a thief so far, which is awful as they got some unblockables and boon steals now, and I never used to lose to the guy before :/

On top of this there was a post in the WvW section going on for a few days with people trying to nerf Retaliation into the ground, calling for internal cooldowns or 50-75% dmg reduction. It’s really our only decent way of being effective at range anyway

If they change energy sigils I will seriously be annoyed as hell, ‘make it more useful’ they say; if that means anything other than buffing it to 75% endurance gain, I’m gonna go and curl up in a corner and sob myself to death. I don’t know what we can do to stop it though, apart from make a petition of some sort. Seriously it will destroy my game should it be brought about, perpetual state of dredd commenced.

Potentially coming back after a break, This has to be some of the best news I have read so far for changes. I always warned Christos they were going to nerf it :P

Bakitten291:

Potentially coming back after a break, This has to be some of the best news I have read so far for changes. I always warned Christos they were going to nerf it :P

So you appreciate an even more build restrictive class since Christos’ build depended on retal? I suppose you felt the same way when you build was nerfed with the Vigor change as well?

Yes, I do, No build that stacks 2 defensive stats should be able to outkill people who stack offensive stats. I have no issue with the build being unkillable, but the fact that it was impossible to counter due to 100% retal uptime was insane.

As far as the old vigor nerf, yes, that did suck, because unlike the Healway build, my old build was still very killable, and in no way was it essentially immortal. Also, it specialized in 1v1 fights, where the healway could easily take 1v3 or even more. But I also got over that, and made my build even stronger. Also, Christos knew this was going to come eventually, we had talked about it before. We both knew how powerful it was, from his vantage point, and from mine from when we were on different servers.

As far as being more build restricted, I really have to argue that. Yes, the damage is scaled down, but the bunkerness of the build is still very much there, the survivability was untouched, it now just takes longer for someone to die from it, which means that people cant just faceroll retal buttons and have to actually do something. Also keep in mind Scepter AA finally got noticed by a Dev, which means with it eventually being fixed, could open up an entire new set of builds.

Well that’s true in all senses. I just can’t get behind nerfs though to my favorite class

Yeah, saw that Scepter is about to get a boost. I have a very bad feeling we’re gonna pay for it though. And if that pans out to be true, I’d rather have my failed Scepter AA.

I disagree on the ‘faceroll retal buttons’ idea. Nothing about Chris’ build is easy, I’ve seen many try and fail to get it right, especially in more than 1vX situations; a good necro can easily turn the tide in one of those fights, or enough burst. Two backstabbers is generally enough, as it would be for most people; now I wholeheartedly believe that ‘The Dawnheart’ is on a completely different skill plain to me, watching his videos the way he plays it so perfectly is quite beautiful (no kitten , Retal was and is most every guardian’s most useful damage weapon, because let’s face it, we kind of got screwed over in the ranged department. Easier counters for this build have already been introduced, like the thieves having unblockables now, which counters a lot of the build’s damage negation.

As far as I know face rolling retal on this build is a complete understatement and generalisation of what is going on; yes you can take on 1v3s as long as you keep your focus and have a good understanding of the way PvP works, and they don’t. I’ve seen d/d eles fight the same fights and win, it all depends on opponent’s experience and build, which most of the time is a WvW spec rather than something built for small scale combat.

Immolator.5640:

I disagree on the ‘faceroll retal buttons’ idea. Nothing about Chris’ build is easy, I’ve seen many try and fail to get it right, especially in more than 1vX situations; a good necro can easily turn the tide in one of those fights, or enough burst. Two backstabbers is generally enough, as it would be for most people; now I wholeheartedly believe that ‘The Dawnheart’ is on a completely different skill plain to me, watching his videos the way he plays it so perfectly is quite beautiful (no kitten , Retal was and is most every guardian’s most useful damage weapon, because let’s face it, we kind of got screwed over in the ranged department. Easier counters for this build have already been introduced, like the thieves having unblockables now, which counters a lot of the build’s damage negation.

As far as I know face rolling retal on this build is a complete understatement and generalisation of what is going on; yes you can take on 1v3s as long as you keep your focus and have a good understanding of the way PvP works, and they don’t. I’ve seen d/d eles fight the same fights and win, it all depends on opponent’s experience and build, which most of the time is a WvW spec rather than something built for small scale combat.

I call it faceroll because it is insanely easy to keep retal up almost 100% of the time, 3x virtues, 2 shouts, combo fields and massive boon duration, and multiple traits. Im not saying that the entire playstyle is faceroll, trust me I play with christos, i know how good he is, but the point still stands that most of the damage from this build came from a very easy to generate source. Necros should not have been in all honesty that much of an issue due to the amount of sources of retal we have, and also our capabilty to remove conditions and also flip them to boons. Thieves I cant talk about too much as I havent fought any after coming back for today.

Talking about Necroes in a 3-5vs1 situation xD they make it harder with those fields, in the same way that in a 3vs1 when one of them is a confusion mesmer it used to be impossible to win the fight, at least for me and most people. I believe most Guardians have high retal uptimes, if not 100% themselves, or at least a lot of the people on another thread said so Anyways it’s been nerfed now, which is okay-ish, but I’d shank anyone who tries to take away my Energy sigil. Repeatedly.

Irate Platypus.9318:

For the screenshots above, I actually had more might in the ones where I wakittenting in the 200s than in the 300s. In the bigger fights we had stacked might beforehand. As they expired the damage did go down (3 points per stack), but that doesn’t explain the 326 vs 241 and such.

Further complicating this is that all of my results from yesterday show hits in the 300s again. There’s a thread in the wvw forum that thinks the change was rolled back.

edit: one possibility is that the ones showing reduced damage had protection up and there never was a change in the first place. That would explain how we all arrived at that 33% reduction number.

In heart of the mists I am hitting 300s and only 200s In actual spvp matches.

On 3k atk power im hitting 350ish per retal tick