Guild Wars 2

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The gist of this whole conversation being that if you want to run AH, you’re better off not trying to be DPS at the same time, and vice versa. Any build with any acceptable amount of DPS will not only lose out on a lot of valuable guardian support options in order to fit in AH, but you won’t even get that much benefit out of AH itself. On the other hand, if you’re actually trying to build to make AH effective, you’re investing so much into AH that your DPS will be crap.

One or the other is what we’re saying. And typically the consensus is that for PvE at least, DPS is much more useful than self-regen.

This guy is right.
If u want to go AH, u are left with 40 trait points to play with, so u are left with either going into

1)good DPS route and have bad support (eg 10/30/30/0/0) or
2)good support and low dps route (eg 0/0/30/30/10)

However if u are willing to give up AH, u can have builts with both Good DPS and Good Support but your survivability might decline abit. (eg 10/30/0/10/20 is what i am running).

I really wish we could sticky a thread regarding why AH is not a ‘desirable trait’ as every other week, i see one of these threads about AH coming up and people keep arguing the same things over and over again

Sutcliffe.5491:

I really wish we could sticky a thread regarding why AH is not a ‘desirable trait’ as every other week, i see one of these threads about AH coming up and people keep arguing the same things over and over again

The reason being that the arguments against AH aren’t nearly as compelling or obvious as their proponents seem to think. The same things are being said again and again because because a small class of forum posters seek out these threads here and in the Dungeons forum for the purposes of advocating their positions as undeniable fact.

end of the day it comes to what kind of content you want to do, and how you want to do it. and what works for someone may not work for another.

if people are asking for high or optimal DPS, peolpe will give them straight answers. i personally think AH has a place. and yes, it can most definitely achieve good DPS – for what the build is supposed to do. on the other hand, it definitely is not the highest DPS us Guardians can choose to equip ourselves with, again, key point here, in various portions of the game in different situations.

there should be no black or white for eevry single situation out there.

Well, I don’t want to get in a fight with anyone, so anybody who quotes my post and takes it apart will be promptly ignored LOL but here are my two cents:
DPS is defined as “damage per second” therefore, it is subjective. Hitting all 200 glancing blows still is DPS, just not great DPS. Therefore when I read your post OP, I assume it means you want SOME DPS <— “some” meaning not maximum possible NOR the damage of a wet noodle. Therefore, if you wanted to balance AH with “some” DPS you would want to look at the fantastic builds up on top. But, don’t expect to hit max DPS with AH, because simply put, it’s just not a DPS based trait. I personally plan to run something along the lines of 0/10/30/30/0 with mostly knight and zerk armor. It has AH, and minor support with some crit and crit damage. But remember, play how you want to. Elitists may argue that “playing how you want to” will impact others, therefore in PvE it will mess people up. But remember, the people in your pug chose to pug, they didn’t put up the “zerk only” tag either, therefore you can do whatever you want. It’s not like elitists pug often either, so by running a slightly more survival based build, it’s not really messing up everyone else since it’s not a speed run nor was DPS requested specifically. On the other hand, if you are in a pre-made group…

Fallengrace.9821:

The fantastic thing about Guardians is you can have AH in almost any dps build…

no… no you cant… you can use AH in a balanced build; but not a dps build (the key to dps builds are damage modifiers, but AH soaks up 30 trait points in a tree that is absolutely awful for optimal pve)

The whole reason to take a guardian in fractals would be to provide good support with consecrations and shouts along with good dps. Which means you need traits which effect their cooldowns. There are two options you could take. 10/25/0/25/10 which has a hp cusion giving you a bit more safety against larges groups trash. Or the better 10/25/0/10/25 which retains shout cooldowns but can have both consecration and spirit weapon traits in virtues (and better dps). Theres not much point going 30 in radiance in fractals due to 1h sword cleave being quite bad for the trash clearing sections (dredge). I think you will find the vigor and extra hp in honour will be better for your survivability than the toughness from valor. You wont have a constant heal from boons anymore but you shouldnt need it with the heal cooldowns guard has and the passive regen.

spalt.6938:

Just to clarify, I’m playing her mostly for dungeons.

If you’re looking for a PvE build then you’re better off not going into Valor at all. It’s our weakest trait-line in PvE, and it has mostly PvP related traits. Even Meditations are more useful in PvP than PvE.

The only time you really go into Valor in PvE is when you get (VI) Retributive Honor and (IX) Honorable Shield for a Scepter/Shield or Sword/Shield build with 30 points in Radiance for (XI) Right-Hand Strength.

If you want a build with good support and survivability then this build is a good alternative to AH. With (VII) Writ of Persistence in Honor, the Hammer’s auto-attack chain can provide a party with permanent protection.

10/30/30/0/0 does about 20% less damage than 10/25/0/10/25 assuming 5 boons to be permanently up on average (mostlikely more in a group setting). With a proper rotation its even going to be 25%. That doesn’t factor in any damage from consecrations and virtues too.

Try this one "0/0/30/30/10:http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.2|1.1l.h2.0.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|1l.71j.1l.71j.1l.71j.1l.71j.1l.71j.1l.71j|2s.0.1g.67.1g.67.1n.67.1n.67.1c.67|0.0.u56b.u29b.a1|0.0|v.17.18.19.1i|e
It gives okey damage with some survivel. Im auto hitting 2000-4000 while in a zerg and 1000-2000ish without. If u use right combination u can even get 11k+ damage(gs:whirlwind skill).
Just saying im a casual player. Im looking here and there ,and take what i want to use.

Thats going to be less than 50% of 10/25/0/10/25’s damage.

Can someone please explain to me, what is the point of a build that takes AH as well as Unscathed Contender? What is the point of a trait that helps you only when you are not getting hit in a build centered around healing itself from damage.

Or better phrased for the people claiming they can keep it up most of the time. Why are you playing a build centered around healing yourself when your not planning on taking damage?

Pug logic.

durend.6237:

Can someone please explain to me, what is the point of a build that takes AH as well as Unscathed Contender? What is the point of a trait that helps you only when you are not getting hit in a build centered around healing itself from damage.

Or better phrased for the people claiming they can keep it up most of the time. Why are you playing a build centered around healing yourself when your not planning on taking damage?

Just because a build has 30 in valor doesn’t mean it’s centered around altruistic healing, the point of my build for example 0/30/30/0/10 in pug 40s/50s fractals is to do good single target damage(in full zerk, 75-80% crit with 1h, getting the most of the crit damage) and have that extra 300 toughness + strength in numbers, for pugging, never in an optimal group, if I played with a strong group i’d do 10/25/0/10/25.

All that toughness and AH heals help being in full zerk in a chaotic pug situation.. it’s a build for consistency/versatility, the 10 in virtues means on the fights where you need consecrations you got the trait, on some boss fights you can just put on unscathed defender and try not to get hit/use retreat+voc+renewed focus and put out nice scepter/sword damage.

Lack of vigor(from honor trait) is a big deal, sigil of stamina makes up for it on all the trash, +endurance food helps a bit in other places, I don’t think it’s worth freaking out over as if that trait is the most helpful thing of all time in PVE where you know what’s going to happen.

I don’t think the 10 in honor and 15 extra in virtues provide much extra useful support for most pug groups, strength in numbers helps, not being too squishy while still doing good dps helps me… basically for me my ‘ah build’(it’s not about AH at all) is just to do good single target damage without going down too easy when things go wrong as they often do in pug land… 2handers AH and sigil of stamina full zerk makes trash really easy in lev40/50 fractals.

I’m surprised this thread is still going on.

Incomingray.8075:

I don’t think the 10 in honor and 15 extra in virtues provide much extra useful support for most pug groups, strength in numbers helps, not being too squishy while still doing good dps helps me… basically for me my ‘ah build’(it’s not about AH at all) is just to do good single target damage without going down too easy when things go wrong as they often do in pug land… 2handers AH and sigil of stamina full zerk makes trash really easy in lev40/50 fractals.

Why not take a hammer? I’m not saying ignore valor, but having 100% uptime on a 33% damage reduction seems alot more useful than 200 extra toughness.

Not to mention if your doing single target dps that isn’t going to be much use in cliffside/dredge.

15/15/10/20/10. you pick up a 10% damage modifier for the one you lost in radiance, you retain the VoJ blind/vuln spam. Your auto attack is now applying vuln. You gain vigor on crit hits (other honor traits to make larger and longer symbols). And you retain the ability to go between Unscathed to MoC. Also for the end bosses where you’d be better with a 1h sword/scepter you can pick up shout CDs and empowering might (most pugs are bad at retaining might stacks).

Also the constant uptime on protection effects not just you (as 200 toughness from 30 valor does) but your whole party (or at least the ones that are meleeing).

durend.6237:

Can someone please explain to me, what is the point of a build that takes AH as well as Unscathed Contender? What is the point of a trait that helps you only when you are not getting hit in a build centered around healing itself from damage.

Unscathed Contender is a suckers bet. Other than completely scripted single-enemy encounters, there’s just no way to reliably avoid a stray random hit or aoe in normal PVE. And re-applying aegis just to boost your damage is costly and selfish (as opposed to using your aegis to benefit the group).

As I’ve pointed out previously in this thread, the only DPS-related justification for AH is to support maximum uptime for the damage boost of Scholar runes. While it may provide less-than-optimal maximum damage under spreadsheet conditions, it will give a non-trivial increase to your Scholar uptime. Unfortunately, its just too random to quantify and therefore isn’t recognized by the math heroes in this thread.

Unfortunatley we’re not just math heroes but actualy dungeon speedclearers.

Unscathed Defender is not a trait that people should recommend because if you are good enough to use it, you already do. If don’t use it, you already know you can’t.

Incomingray.8075:

Just because a build has 30 in valor doesn’t mean it’s centered around altruistic healing, the point of my build for example 0/30/30/0/10 in pug 40s/50s fractals is to do good single target damage(in full zerk, 75-80% crit with 1h, getting the most of the crit damage) and have that extra 300 toughness + strength in numbers, for pugging, never in an optimal group, if I played with a strong group i’d do 10/25/0/10/25.

All that toughness and AH heals help being in full zerk in a chaotic pug situation.. it’s a build for consistency/versatility, the 10 in virtues means on the fights where you need consecrations you got the trait, on some boss fights you can just put on unscathed defender and try not to get hit/use retreat+voc+renewed focus and put out nice scepter/sword damage.

Lack of vigor(from honor trait) is a big deal, sigil of stamina makes up for it on all the trash, +endurance food helps a bit in other places, I don’t think it’s worth freaking out over as if that trait is the most helpful thing of all time in PVE where you know what’s going to happen.

I don’t think the 10 in honor and 15 extra in virtues provide much extra useful support for most pug groups, strength in numbers helps, not being too squishy while still doing good dps helps me… basically for me my ‘ah build’(it’s not about AH at all) is just to do good single target damage without going down too easy when things go wrong as they often do in pug land… 2handers AH and sigil of stamina full zerk makes trash really easy in lev40/50 fractals.

If u really need the toughness, why not get cavalier or knights gear instead of going full 30 in the valor line whereby most of the traits are lackluster ? Then u can pick up fiery wraith so your damage wouldn’t drop even if u lose critical damage from the valor line?

10 in honor gives superior aria which reduces retreat coolddown to 48s, which I think is quite good if things go wrong. U get 1 extra aegis for every 4 mins in a fight.

20 in virtues gives absolute resolution which makes virtue of resolution into a grp condition removal without using one of your utility slot. Of course that might not be very crucial in fractals as the mobs rarely use condition there, but it’s good for other dungeons.

Sutcliffe.5491:

If u really need the toughness, why not get cavalier or knights gear instead of going full 30 in the valor line whereby most of the traits are lackluster ? Then u can pick up fiery wraith so your damage wouldn’t drop even if u lose critical damage from the valor line?

10 in honor gives superior aria which reduces retreat coolddown to 48s, which I think is quite good if things go wrong. U get 1 extra aegis for every 4 mins in a fight.

20 in virtues gives absolute resolution which makes virtue of resolution into a grp condition removal without using one of your utility slot. Of course that might not be very crucial in fractals as the mobs rarely use condition there, but it’s good for other dungeons.

I would prob never WvW without those traits you named I just don’t see them as very helpful for pugging fractals, shout cooldown is no prob aegis stays up on alot of boss fights, again I like getting all the crit damage with the toughness, goes with berserker gear well, strength in numbers is quite good too for a pug group, dont need the condition removal as you say.

I get 450 toughness my group gets 150 of that, AH helps alot in some parts in pugs, crit damage complements full zerk and 30 in radiance, I think everything is useful at some points in a fractals pug, I think it’s a better approach than getting toughness from gear and reducing my crit% and adding healing/vitality/boon duration/virtue recharge

The shout cooldown is to use your shouts to block for your group…. 25 in virtues gives you the option to trait consecrations and spirit weapons in fractals. Very useful traits.

Using AH to keep scholar runes up is the same as using signet heal, over kill. You’ll heal more than needed and will lose both dps and utility in the process. Not really a smart choice when you think about it.

Oxxy.7068:

Using AH to keep scholar runes up is the same as using signet heal, over kill. You’ll heal more than needed and will lose both dps and utility in the process. Not really a smart choice when you think about it.

Actually its more like Warriors using Healing Signet over Healing Surge for the same purpose. There’s a trade-off involved, but not necessarily a bad one.

Healing signet is a healing skill, not a trait, using it will not affect utility or dps, in most cases it will boost it (via precision per unused signets). On the other hand, AH requires 30 points into a bad trait line.

Oxxy.7068:

Healing signet is a healing skill, not a trait, using it will not affect utility or dps, in most cases it will boost it (via precision per unused signets). On the other hand, AH requires 30 points into a bad trait line.

A trait line that gives 30% crit damage, so more damage.

Bottom line is there are pluses and minuses to using AH, even in DPS-centric builds. The only people who are wrong are those who deny that fact.

Incomingray.8075:

I would prob never WvW without those traits you named I just don’t see them as very helpful for pugging fractals, shout cooldown is no prob aegis stays up on alot of boss fights, again I like getting all the crit damage with the toughness, goes with berserker gear well, strength in numbers is quite good too for a pug group, dont need the condition removal as you say.

I get 450 toughness my group gets 150 of that, AH helps alot in some parts in pugs, crit damage complements full zerk and 30 in radiance, I think everything is useful at some points in a fractals pug, I think it’s a better approach than getting toughness from gear and reducing my crit% and adding healing/vitality/boon duration/virtue recharge

U claimed AH wasnt that important in your built and u can run without it by leaving the slot empty.
Hence i recommended dropping 10 from valor and put into Zeal.
Eg swapping from a Ring of Red death to a Rurik’s Royal Signet Ring
U lose 68 precision (3% critical chance) and 10% critical damage
U gain 65 power (from Zeal) and 3 extra toughness (lol) and 10% condition duration and most importantly 10% damage against burning foe.
End result : higher damage, same toughness , no AH , same lack of support

Sutcliffe.5491:

U claimed AH wasnt that important in your built and u can run without it by leaving the slot empty.
Hence i recommended dropping 10 from valor and put into Zeal.
Eg swapping from a Ring of Red death to a Rurik’s Royal Signet Ring
U lose 68 precision (3% critical chance) and 10% critical damage
U gain 65 power (from Zeal) and 3 extra toughness (lol) and 10% condition duration and most importantly 10% damage against burning foe.
End result : higher damage, same toughness , no AH , same lack of support

I never said I could leave it empty, I just said I could leave it empty sometimes.. sometimes it’s extremely helpful when things are falling apart in a pug, also i’m getting toughness and crit damage and my crit% is very high so i’m getting value out of that.. I could switch to zeal and do a bit more damage but really it’s not worth it in my experience, i’ve played alot of builds in fractals, I just find at 40/50’s pugging AH can really save the day now and then.

I realize my damage could be a bit higher it’s not complicated, this game has alot of situations you can get into, running with a guild group is completely and totally different to running with a pug which alot of us do at 40s/50s, my guild is strictly WvW, sometimes you get a group that’s total crap and the heals that you can burst out with AH will keep you up to get off another shield or wall or aegis or whatever.

Not looking for optimalization, I want the runs to go smoothly, as they do… our utility in fractals is in consecrations/blocks which I do not neglect, at a really high crit% i’m not neglecting my damage and i’m getting value out of my valors crit damage, AH saves me here and there being in full zerker, there would be more wipes if I didn’t have it in pugs.

Lack of support huh? Sorry but 10 in consecrations is all you really need for fractals support and knowing how to play the class/knowing the situations, 15 more in virtues makes no difference, longer lasting shield of the avenger is not going to save a bad group anyways.. having a shout come up earlier is also not going to make that difference.

Another way to put it i’m built to do good damage without neglecting my survivability in an emergency which tends to happen pugging I believe the most important thing is for me to not randomly go down and not be able to put up a wall or a shield or time an aegis etc., an alive guardian who knows what theyre doing with the right utilities chosen is support, I find pugging fractals with 450 less toughness and no AH i’m prone to going down in an emergency so I can’t save the day, AH can really burst out some heals if you use the right abilities at once.

spoj.9672:

The shout cooldown is to use your shouts to block for your group…. 25 in virtues gives you the option to trait consecrations and spirit weapons in fractals. Very useful traits.

I’ve been running 15/25/0/5/25, shout cooldown isn’t TOO useful. Vuln on symbols isn’t necessarily too useful either unless you camp hammer, but more vuln never hurts I guess.

(For fractals 38+, where you won’t have too much sword uptime).

I think a lot of blokes like the 30 points for the 30 crit damage. Can someone explain why that is bad.

durend.6237:

15/15/10/20/10. you pick up a 10% damage modifier for the one you lost in radiance, you retain the VoJ blind/vuln spam.

What 10% modifier? The 10% crit damage? In that case, you are wrong – in the end, they will increase your total damage only by something like 3%, plusminus a bit.

CptAurellian.9537:

durend.6237:

15/15/10/20/10. you pick up a 10% damage modifier for the one you lost in radiance, you retain the VoJ blind/vuln spam.

What 10% modifier? The 10% crit damage? In that case, you are wrong – in the end, they will increase your total damage only by something like 3%, plusminus a bit.

Not that I want to make an argument for him; but our 2nd guard for our fractal team has been running that build. Works well, he just camps hammer. Allows him to be a pseudo-anchor, without really sacrificing anything (its sacrificing 10 points from virtues).

Not sure how helpful Strength in numbers actually is; but he (the guard) likes it.

Relentliss.2170:

I think a lot of blokes like the 30 points for the 30 crit damage. Can someone explain why that is bad.

It’s a multiplier on a multiplier. In the range of currently attainable precision, crit damage gives the worst return on investment into damage.

See chart on this page: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

Whether that is a bad investment or not is debatable. It really depends on your precision.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

CptAurellian.9537:

durend.6237:

15/15/10/20/10. you pick up a 10% damage modifier for the one you lost in radiance, you retain the VoJ blind/vuln spam.

What 10% modifier? The 10% crit damage? In that case, you are wrong – in the end, they will increase your total damage only by something like 3%, plusminus a bit.

Not that I want to make an argument for him; but our 2nd guard for our fractal team has been running that build. Works well, he just camps hammer. Allows him to be a pseudo-anchor, without really sacrificing anything (its sacrificing 10 points from virtues).

Not sure how helpful Strength in numbers actually is; but he (the guard) likes it.

Yeah, hammer camping here.

I was talking about using that over running a 0/30/30/0/10 build, 10% to burning foes (in zeal) is picked up when the 10% to foes with conditions is lost (shifting 15 points from radiance to zeal). 20 points shift out of valor to honor.

All told we have:

• lost 150 precision gained 150 power
• lost a 5% damage mod with sword, gained vuln stacking on hammer auto
• lost 200 personal toughness, AH and likely %5 of toughness > precision gained perma party protection and vigor on crits (200 vitality I suppose as well)

I don’t have an exact number on the difference in DPS, but it’s clearly not going to be as high. This isn’t a build an organized team would use in any place outside of high fractals.

But, I’d be much happier entering a random pug and seeing a guardian running this over an AH build. This supports the entire party helping everyone stay alive, AH only helps the guard stay alive.

Berner.7289:

A trait line that gives 30% crit damage, so more damage.

Bottom line is there are pluses and minuses to using AH, even in DPS-centric builds. The only people who are wrong are those who deny that fact.

Still less damage and utility than 25 in virtues (according to dub, 20% less damage). I’m sorry but the fact that AH is a weak trait-line won’t change just because you said on the internet that i am wrong.

@Obtena
If people that tops outs 86~95% critical chance everytime they run a dungeon aren’t running 30 in valor for damage, i am pretty sure that it is a bad idea for the average forum goer. :/

Relentliss.2170:

I think a lot of blokes like the 30 points for the 30 crit damage. Can someone explain why that is bad.

average damage =
Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage + 0.5) ) * Damage Mods

There is also the fact that increasing Critical Damage is additive. If I have 76% crit damage and use a food that gives me + 10% crit damage, I’ll have 86%.

Increasing Damage Mods is multiplicative. If my current mod is 1.39 (the number you’d get from scholar runes, night and force sigils and slaying potions) and I go into zeal for the 10% damage to burning foes and radiance for the 10% damage to foes with conditions I have not increased that number to 1.59, but 1.69.

1.39 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 1.69

Add in the 5% modifier for swords in radiance and were up to 1.77. 35 points spent, and the damage modifier has increased by .38 (1.39 -> 1.77). This number is then strait up multiplied to base damage.

On the other hand, with full berserker/scholar, we sit at 78% crit damage and 38% crit chance. 30 points into valor brings us up to 108% crit damage and the 5% of toughness is applied to percision brings crit chance to 41%.

Now let’s say we’re in a pug group with a shout-heal warrior and a ranger with spotter and a warhorn. perception stacks + spotter boost crit chance to 60% and fury brings it to 80%.

1 + crit chance (crit damage + .5) = 1 + .8 (1.08 + .5) = 2.26

The number that the 10/25/x/x/x build would get however (same party, same stacking sigil):
1 + .89 + (.78 + .5) = 2.14

put those numbers together with the ealier damage multipliers x/x/30/x/x would get
2.26 * 1.39 = 3.14 (total modifier to base damage)

and 10/25/x/x/x has
2.14 * 1.77 = 3.78 (total modifier to base damage)

The reasoning against going into valor after starting with 10/25/x/x/x is that there are better traits for party support in virtues as well as more damage mods. The only damage modifier in the valor line is mace specific (a weapon that has poor dps) and thus the tree should not be considered when specing for damage.

Oxxy.7068:

@Obtena
If people that tops outs 86~95% critical chance everytime they run a dungeon aren’t running 30 in valor for damage, i am pretty sure that it is a bad idea for the average forum goer. :/

Yeah I agree. My point was that it’s dependent on your precision. If you are in that range of crit chance, a 30% crit damage increase can be a significant increase in damage.

durend.6237:

average damage =
Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage + 0.5) ) * Damage Mods

There is also the fact that increasing Critical Damage is additive. If I have 76% crit damage and use a food that gives me + 10% crit damage, I’ll have 86%.

Increasing Damage Mods is multiplicative. If my current mod is 1.39 (the number you’d get from scholar runes, night and force sigils and slaying potions) and I go into zeal for the 10% damage to burning foes and radiance for the 10% damage to foes with conditions I have not increased that number to 1.59, but 1.69.

1.39 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 1.69

Add in the 5% modifier for swords in radiance and were up to 1.77. 35 points spent, and the damage modifier has increased by .38 (1.39 -> 1.77). This number is then strait up multiplied to base damage.

On the other hand, with full berserker/scholar, we sit at 78% crit damage and 38% crit chance. 30 points into valor brings us up to 108% crit damage and the 5% of toughness is applied to percision brings crit chance to 41%.

Now let’s say we’re in a pug group with a shout-heal warrior and a ranger with spotter and a warhorn. perception stacks + spotter boost crit chance to 60% and fury brings it to 80%.

1 + crit chance (crit damage + .5) = 1 + .8 (1.08 + .5) = 2.26

The number that the 10/25/x/x/x build would get however (same party, same stacking sigil):
1 + .89 + (.78 + .5) = 2.14

put those numbers together with the ealier damage multipliers x/x/30/x/x would get
2.26 * 1.39 = 3.14 (total modifier to base damage)

and 10/25/x/x/x has
2.14 * 1.77 = 3.78 (total modifier to base damage)

The reasoning against going into valor after starting with 10/25/x/x/x is that there are better traits for party support in virtues as well as more damage mods. The only damage modifier in the valor line is mace specific (a weapon that has poor dps) and thus the tree should not be considered when specing for damage.

DPS example for a guardian with a shout-heal warrior, I’ve seen everything.

haviz.1340:

DPS example for a guardian with a shout-heal warrior, I’ve seen everything.

I wanted to show fury in the example, but didn’t want to factor in banner of discipline. I was about to make that ranger a axe/warhorn terrible build so I didn’t have to do spotter either XD

Incomingray.8075:

Altruistic healing I could care less about altho it does save me sometimes esp on stuff like dredge trash with gs/staff, I just want the crit damage and the toughness helps me a bit being full zerk often.
.

Incomingray.8075:

Again i’m not going down valor to get altruistic healing, I just want the toughness and crit damage at the end rather than zeal tree, strength in numbers is helpful, altruistic healing does help keep me up in some situations.

After claiming that you are not going into Valor for AH repeatedly, I provided u a built without AH with similar lvl of toughness and potentially higher damage.
Others like Durend also provided builts without Ah with similar lvl of defense though hammer protection etc.
Then u went on to defend your choice of taking AH when faced with such builts that I mentioned.
U are contradicting yourself so just accept the fact that u are going 30 into valor for AH and not crit damage or toughness.

Sutcliffe.5491:

After claiming that you are not going into Valor for AH repeatedly, I provided u a built without AH with similar lvl of toughness and potentially higher damage.
Others like Durend also provided builts without Ah with similar lvl of defense though hammer protection etc.
Then u went on to defend your choice of taking AH when faced with such builts that I mentioned.
U are contradicting yourself so just accept the fact that u are going 30 into valor for AH and not crit damage or toughness.

Look i’m going into it for the AH AND crit damage AND toughness, all of the above, together, it’s not an AH build, the AH is as useful as several traits in the build, i’m just saying the AH isn’t the key to the build or anything and alot of fights I could leave the slot empty and it probably wouldn’t matter, it’s just very helpful when pugging in some of the 40s/50s fractals situations so I go with it, comes with toughness/crit damage, if I ran with a solid consistent group I would not got 30 into valor… thought I explained why this build works so well for me in my last post.

Being in full zerk and doing good damage in a pug fractals can be challenging, to me support is being alive, AH emergency burst healing and my toughness can save the day and keep me up for the various guardian utilities that can win fights.. also hammer protection is not even remotely useful in pug wipe situations in say a 48 fractals, AH burst healing is, taking 30 out of valor makes me too squishy to run zerk dps in these situations, having 30 valor compliments zerk cause at 75-80% crit i’m really benefitting from 30% crit damage esp when I get fury.

Also on the fights where I don’t need my AH I can put in fury on meditation and get meditation cooldown and smite condition every 16 seconds for all my burst for a boss like say mossman or the frost guy when they come out of hiding.

Incomingray.8075:

also hammer protection is not even remotely useful in pug wipe situations in say a 48 fractals,

Damage taken = incoming damage / armor (source)

incoming damage = 1,000,000 (hypothetical)

0/30/30/0/10 guard armor (full berserker and Strength in Numbers) = 2577

1,000,000 / 2577 = 388 damage taken

15/15/10/20/10 guard armor (same as above) + 100% uptime protection = 2377

(1,000,000 * .67) / 2377 = 282 damage taken

Protection doesn’t matter does it? Not to mention that the protection from the hammer doesn’t just effect you but your entire party.

“But AH can give protection too with Hold the Line”
-At best HtL is 15~% uptime. You simply are not going to have it when you need it.

“Hammer protection only helps people in melee”
-Wall of Reflection will protect those at range, as will ring of warding stop mobs from advancing on them.

“0/30/30/0/10 does more damage then 15/15/10/20/10”
-I’ll give you that one. But that’s on the strength of the radiance line – not valor. For the cost of 250 toughness (you’ll still get hit less hard with 100% protection and no valor than you would with full valor – 315 to 388 in the example above) you can run 15/25/0/20/10 and have better offense and defense than 0/30/30/0/10 (see my above post for the importance of damage multipliers over crit damage for this).

So if 30 in valor isn’t better offense and it isn’t better defense, we’re down to “I want AH”
AH will heal for 69 per boon, if that skill gives 1 boon to the whole party thats 345. most shouts are going to only do double that, same with activating virtues. The only true “burst” heals you’ll have are symbol of wrath which ticks 5 times giving 345-1725 depending on how many allies are in it and empower which is 828-4140 depending on how many allies are within 600 radius of you.

While that 4k max may look nice, using it requires:

1. All party members in range, not a 100% in a pug
2. All party members being alive, something an AH build cannot do very well.
3. You to plant yourself for 2.5 seconds, during this time you cannot evade attacks or you end up losing your healing. Mobs in level 40 fractals are more then able to do 4k damage over that time to negate this healing however
4. You to lock yourself into a low DPS weapon for 9 seconds

Meanwhile, you can be running life regen food (candied dragon rolls are less then a silver) for 325 life every second. That put together with vigor on crits and you’ll have plenty of sustainability through taking less damage (100% protection), having a constant heal, and being able to dodge when it matters more often. Not only this, but you are free continue using a weapon with decent DPS. If your still worried, grab signet mastery to essentially bring yourself to full life every 30 seconds.

Oxxy.7068:

Still less damage and utility than 25 in virtues (according to dub, 20% less damage).

No one said AH was a min/max build. You seem to be arguing with yourself here, so I’ll leave you to it.

durend.6237:

stuff

Sorry but you’re just not seeing my situations pugging in these fractals properly, do you pug level 40/50 fractals? People range 9 times out of 10, forget about hammer symbol it’s not gonna save the day in a pug, I can use hammer in some situations and get benefit from it though with my build.

30% crit damage in valor amounts to alot when youre at 75-80% crit and 100% crit with fury, AH/toughness and whatever food I choose can help keep me up quite alot in an emergency to get off another wall or aegis or whatever is needed, fractals has so many situations and at high levels with the usual pugs I find I really save people by staying alive despite being in full zerk in a pinch and get off my utility skills, i’m just going to agree to disagree with you, this thread is going in circles with people who run different group types in different pve situations, AH and toughness are doing a good job of barely keeping me up enough so I can continue to be supportive with consecrations or whatever.

I’ve played sooo many builds in fractals since it came out and this one is just working so great for me and I recommend people pugging 40+ that want to full zerk to try out 0/30/30/0/10 as it’s survivable with nice damage and support… do not go down valor if you dont have high crit% and are super amazing at staying alive with no toughness/AH emergency backup heals when things get crazy(as they often do pugging).

Berner.7289:

Oxxy.7068:

Still less damage and utility than 25 in virtues (according to dub, 20% less damage).

No one said AH was a min/max build. You seem to be arguing with yourself here, so I’ll leave you to it.

You said it was a good trade off. It ins’t. But hey, great argument right there, you really proved me wrong.

Oxxy.7068:

You said it was a good trade off. It ins’t. But hey, great argument right there, you really proved me wrong.

Actually, what I said is that it is a trade-off. Which implies both advantages and disadvantages. Whether its a “good” trade-off or a “bad” trade-off depends on a lot of other factors, e.g., content, group composition, skill level.

So yes, you are wrong. And, you’re even wrong about what you were wrong about. Think about that for a moment.

Berner.7289:

Actually, what I said is that it is a trade-off. Which implies both advantages and disadvantages. Whether its a “good” trade-off or a “bad” trade-off depends on a lot of other factors, e.g., content, group composition, skill level.

So yes, you are wrong. And, you’re even wrong about what you were wrong about. Think about that for a moment.

This “trade-off” ins’t even a trade, but since i’m feeling like repeating myself over and over today: You lose damage and utility in order to get AH. You’re basically getting nothing if compared to other setups, aside from some defense that is arguably worse than perma vigor. And while we’re at it: give me one group composition where AH is better than 25 in virtues (hint: there ins’t one).

And here’s a free tip: If you need AH to make scholar works, swap to ranger’s runes.

Oxxy.7068:

You’re basically getting nothing if compared to other setups, aside from some defense that is arguably worse than perma vigor.

Toughness, trickle healing, 30% crit damage, and more Scholar uptime isn’t nothing. It may not be the min/max choice, and it may not be your choice, but it is a viable choice nonetheless.

Berner.7289:

viable choice

Debatable

Berner.7289:

Oxxy.7068:

You’re basically getting nothing if compared to other setups, aside from some defense that is arguably worse than perma vigor.

Toughness, trickle healing, 30% crit damage, and more Scholar uptime isn’t nothing. It may not be the min/max choice, and it may not be your choice, but it is a viable choice nonetheless.

Let’s talk game mechanics.
AH heals you everytime you apply a boon, right? Right. So, to make good use of that wonderful trait we’d have to:

• Use hammer as main weapon to trigger the healing 5x per symbol pulse, assuming your party is at melee range with you.
• Use S/F and shouts.

So, assuming you want to run Hammer, because you know how consecrations are important, you’d run something like: 15/15/30/x/x, either master of consecrations or superior aria or vigor on critical + buffs on virtues. You are simply dishing less party wide protection (and dps) in order to get yourself AH, and IF you trait for longer lasting symbols you’d be hitting like a wet noodle, scholar runes uptime would hardly help your dps in that case.

Now, if you want to run S/F, it gets funnier: You can’t have fiery wrath, lasting consecrations and superior aria together, because you have to put at least 25 points into Radiance, not only that you’d have to use at least two shouts to make use of that wonderful trait, purging flames and WoR? Pffft, your group is too pro and doesn’t need both.

Yeah, AH is totally viable and clearly a good trait choice.

Oxxy.7068:

AH heals you everytime you apply a boon, right? Right. So, to make good use of that wonderful trait we’d have to:

• Use hammer as main weapon to trigger the healing 5x per symbol pulse, assuming your party is at melee range with you.
• Use S/F and shouts.

Nope. Don’t assume that the goal of a build with AH is to maximize AH procs. Dishing boons is always a good thing, but of course you don’t have to run any particular weapon set to get the benefits of AH. We’re not min/maxing here. For example, greatsword is a perfectly viable weapon too: more damage at the expense of fewer AH procs. Trade-offs.

Oxxy.7068:

So, assuming you want to run Hammer, because you know how consecrations are important, you’d run something like: 15/15/30/x/x, either master of consecrations or superior aria or vigor on critical + buffs on virtues. You are simply dishing less party wide protection (and dps) in order to get yourself AH, and IF you trait for longer lasting symbols you’d be hitting like a wet noodle, scholar runes uptime would hardly help your dps in that case.

All you’re saying is that AH isn’t a min-max build. You can’t maximize damage and boons in the same build, with or without AH. We all know this, so you can stop saying it over and over.

Oxxy.7068:

Now, if you want to run S/F, it gets funnier: You can’t have fiery wrath, lasting consecrations and superior aria together, because you have to put at least 25 points into Radiance, not only that you’d have to use at least two shouts to make use of that wonderful trait, purging flames and WoR? Pffft, your group is too pro and doesn’t need both.

Correct, you have to give up Fiery Wrath (imho). In exchange for 30% crit-damage, toughness, trickle heals, and more Scholar up-time. Trade-offs.

And in my experience, seldom are the encounters where a single Guardian needs to have both WoR and Purging Flames in a single fight. One or the other tends to be more suitable, still letting you take two shouts. But if there is an encounter where you need both, you can take both … at the expense of fewer AH procs. Not the end of the world. You can even take SotA as well. (You are aware that you can change utilities anytime as long as you are out-of-combat, right?)