Guild Wars 2

So this debate is over……pve?

Berner.7289:

And in my experience, seldom are the encounters where a single Guardian needs to have both WoR and Purging Flames in a single fight. One or the other tends to be more suitable, still letting you take two shouts. But if there is an encounter where you need both, you can take both … at the expense of fewer AH procs. Not the end of the world. You can even take SotA as well. (You are aware that you can change utilities anytime as long as you are out-of-combat, right?)

I don’t run purging flames only for the cleansing, there’s also the fire field factor. And if you really don’t mind getting almost none AH procs you just basically wasted 20~30 trait points. Congratulations.

And before you say “min-max” again, i’ll tell you this:
Bullkitten.
There are two kinds of builds: good ones, and bad ones. Take a look at Zelyhn’s elementalist build. It rocks, it is simply amazing, it doesn’t max out damage, it doesn’t max out support, it provides just enough of both, he’s not min-maxing but made a flexible build that can serve to multiple purposes. On the other hand AH is bad at damage and team support, and have a hard time adapting since all your group-wide utilities are pretty much untraited, all that while potentially screwing your dodges if you don’t put 5 points into honor. So, just stop with this “AH isn’t a min-max” because that’s really a poor excuse.
AH is awful, not because it doesn’t max-out damage, but because it sucks at everything that matters: dpsing, supporting, adapting and even covering your own mistakes (extra dodges are much better than healing from AH).

So please, learn your stuff before you even think about making witty comments regarding my utility swaping awareness.

Berner.7289:

Nope. Don’t assume that the goal of a build with AH is to maximize AH procs. Dishing boons is always a good thing, but of course you don’t have to run any particular weapon set to get the benefits of AH. We’re not min/maxing here. For example, greatsword is a perfectly viable weapon too: more damage at the expense of fewer AH procs. Trade-offs.

If u dun maximize AH procs, then u are better off going into honor for selfless daring if u need heals and survivability.
Yes u lose critical damage, but the traits there are more beneficial to a group as compared to valor. Eg empowering might, superior aria, pure of voice. Trade offs lol.

Berner.7289:

Correct, you have to give up Fiery Wrath (imho). In exchange for 30% crit-damage, toughness, trickle heals, and more Scholar up-time. Trade-offs.

Failed comparison. U are directly comparing a 10 point trait vs a 30 point trait directly which is illogical at all.
U are giving up 100 power/10% damage mod/10% condition duration for +10% crit dmg/100 toughness/AH. U dun have to give up the full 30 in valor to put 10 in zeal. U just have to give up the last 10 points.

pve is not competative so it doesnt matter!

Are you implying that pvp is, spoj?

spoj.9672:

pve is not competative so it doesnt matter!

Its not a debate about pve and pvp and being condescending towards players who enjoy pve. I have respect for players who like pve and pvp, there is nothing wrong with either.

My point is that there is nothing in gw2 that requires you to min-max anything, those are all goals created by oneself not something the game mechanics force you to do. The only barrier that exists is more so of a intellectual and observational barrier i.e the intelligence to know how to dodge and to see when to dodge.

Not having to min-max doesn’t make AH any better at PvE. Plus, you’d spend 3 silvers re-specing for WvW.

Oxxy.7068:

Not having to min-max doesn’t make AH any better at PvE. Plus, you’d spend 3 silvers re-specing for WvW.

I understand what you are trying to say, but so far the only thing you have proven about AH is that you personally aren’t a fan of it. There is nothing wrong with that, you have the choice, just like players have the choice to use it.

Even if they choose AH, it will have little effect on their pve experience. The biggest barrier is understanding the enemy and game mechanics. Once that is overcame then ones build has a very little effect on what can be achieved. There isn’t much in pve that pushes one to change up their build or gear.

Aza.2105:

but so far the only thing you have proven about AH is that you personally aren’t a fan of it.

I sure hope you aren’t serious here.
Anyhow, i like the concept of AH, but there is no reason to pick it up instead of any other actually good traits.
Also, there’s something you misunderstood here: I’m not saying “OP can’t use AH because i said so”, what i did here was to show anyone reading this thread and interested in pve that there are way better options, i even posted an AH build earlier in case OP really wants to use it.
And while everything is viable, there’s a gap between doing AC in 10 minutes while not really caring about speed and spending 25 minutes trying to make it as fast as possible because your party is made of bearbows rangers, healways guardians and minion mancers necros.

Sutcliffe.5491:

If u dun maximize AH procs, then u are better off going into honor for selfless daring if u need heals and survivability.
Yes u lose critical damage, but the traits there are more beneficial to a group as compared to valor. Eg empowering might, superior aria, pure of voice. Trade offs lol.

You pretty much missed the point of my statement. You don’t need to maximize AH procs because in a damage-centric build, the primary benefit of AH is to top off your health (i.e., keep it above 90%) to maximize Scholar rune uptime. We’re not really discussing healing or survivability builds in this thread, as indicated by the title.

Sutcliffe.5491:

Failed comparison. U are directly comparing a 10 point trait vs a 30 point trait directly which is illogical at all.
U are giving up 100 power/10% damage mod/10% condition duration for +10% crit dmg/100 toughness/AH. U dun have to give up the full 30 in valor to put 10 in zeal. U just have to give up the last 10 points.

Perhaps I fail to understand your explanation, but its not about comparing the AH trait to the Fiery Wrath trait. I was pointing out what you (probably) have to give up in order to have a DPS-centric AH build that doesn’t compromise on group support. With that information, someone can decide if the trade-off makes sense for them, their playstyle, and their content.

Also, you might want to edit your post. According to some in this thread, even a single point in Valor earns you the “filthy casual” title.

Oxxy.7068:

Aza.2105:

but so far the only thing you have proven about AH is that you personally aren’t a fan of it.

I sure hope you aren’t serious here.
Anyhow, i like the concept of AH, but there is no reason to pick it up instead of any other actually good traits.
Also, there’s something you misunderstood here: I’m not saying “OP can’t use AH because i said so”, what i did here was to show anyone reading this thread and interested in pve that there are way better options, i even posted an AH build earlier in case OP really wants to use it.
And while everything is viable, there’s a gap between doing AC in 10 minutes while not really caring about speed and spending 25 minutes trying to make it as fast as possible because your party is made of bearbows rangers, healways guardians and minion mancers necros.

No, I’m quite serious.

There are other alternatives to AH sure, better? Subjective. I’m sure you would do well in dungeons regardless of what gear and build you choose vs someone who doesn’t have any idea about the game mechanics but so happens to have the gear and build you run with.

What you mentioned about bearbow rangers etc seems like a issue with pugs. I personally don’t deal with pugs often, I’ve been playing with the same group of people for close to 4 years.

Its not really subjective when its already been explained that you can get more survivability and more damage along with better group support by not taking 30 in valor. I dont understand why you are trying to argue against us. We were making valid explanations and alternatives and you seem to have a problem with that. This falls under the circumstance of forum stubborness and argueing for the sake of argueing. Anyone asking the same stuff ingame would actually be receptive to the advice given.

spoj.9672:

Its not really subjective when its already been explained that you can get more survivability and more damage along with better group support by not taking 30 in valor. I dont understand why you are trying to argue against us.

Not everyone agrees with you guys and you don’t seem to be understanding our explanations or how we dps and support in the kind of pve we do. Your builds are great for a strong group but pugging is a diff world and they don’t work as well for me as mine, i’ve played the builds you guys are going on about being so great, and they are in the right situation, I bet you haven’t played mine and I bet you guys don’t pug 40/50s fractals all the time and on top of that you don’t play the same as everyone else so stop acting like you can tell everyone whats best for them so matter of factly, i’m mostly hearing strong opinion from a different perspective.

A standard hammer build or 10/25/0/25/10 gs/sword focus build are both very good for pugging fractals. And both of them dont use valor.

Considering I use to pug fractals all the time on my guard I kind of know how painful it is to run a full dps build in those groups. But a hammer or build with atleast 20 pts in honour was always more than enough to get by in the worst of pug groups. I did use to run AH for a while and when i switch to dps build with pure of voice i didnt notice any difference in survivability but there was a definite increase in dps. Basically i felt just as tanky in beserker with 30 pts in honour as i did with knights gear and AH. Just goes to show how little AH does.

spoj.9672:

A standard hammer build or 10/25/0/25/10 gs/sword focus build are both very good for pugging fractals. And both of them dont use valor.

edit: i’m glad those builds are very good for you, I can see they don’t have valor and .. so?

Incomingray.8075:

Not everyone agrees with you guys and you don’t seem to be understanding our explanations or how we dps and support in the kind of pve we do.

What kind of group-support you bring while using AH in PvE? Whatever your awnser is, any build without points in valor can do it better.

Incomingray.8075:

or how we dps and support in the kind of pve we do.

You seem to think because we run most dungeons in organised groups that we play a completely different game. We dont. Difference is weve learnt whats good and whats bad.

Oxxy.7068:

What kind of group-support you bring while using AH in PvE? Whatever your awnser is, any build without points in valor can do it better.

Alive Guardian group support, the kind that matters.

spoj.9672:

You seem to think because we run most dungeons in organised groups that we play a completely different game. We dont. Difference is weve learnt whats good and whats bad.

I don’t know, it seems like you don’t pug 40s and 50s fractals if you think valor is completely useless in all pve.. i’m not up for taking it on with 10/25/0/10/25 personally… some groups are really bad and I love the challenge, valor helps me alot with consistently staying alive to keep them alive with our various utility skills when things are going badly.

Just let them run with their favorite AH built.
I wouldn’t bother to argue anymore since they stubbornly think their 30 valor builts are good damage, good survivability and good support in pugs. (I pug regularly with my 10/30/0/10/20 built) i like 10 in honor for superior aria because I hate waiting to swap my utilities.
I think several of us has already stated why AH Is bad and if they are not getting convinced already, then just let them be. I’m tired of saying why builts without AH are better

OH noes, the people that tell you how to play are back. Just in time for Halloween too.

spoj.9672:

Its not really subjective when its already been explained that you can get more survivability and more damage along with better group support by not taking 30 in valor. I dont understand why you are trying to argue against us. We were making valid explanations and alternatives and you seem to have a problem with that. This falls under the circumstance of forum stubborness and argueing for the sake of argueing. Anyone asking the same stuff ingame would actually be receptive to the advice given.

Its subjective since its only true for you and others who so happen to agree with you. You can pull out numbers in respect to how long it takes to finish a dungeon. But its irrelevant since its a self created goal. Gw2 dungeons aren’t on a timer, so creating a build that gets you through the dungeon as fast as possible means very little unless you as the individual cares.

If you feel I’m trying to argue then that is your problem not mine.

Incomingray.8075:

Oxxy.7068:

What kind of group-support you bring while using AH in PvE? Whatever your awnser is, any build without points in valor can do it better.

Alive Guardian group support, the kind that matters.

Good to know you didn’t read anything i’ve said.

Oxxy.7068:

Incomingray.8075:

Oxxy.7068:

What kind of group-support you bring while using AH in PvE? Whatever your awnser is, any build without points in valor can do it better.

Alive Guardian group support, the kind that matters.

Good to know you didn’t read anything i’ve said.

I did, it didn’t make all that much sense.

There’s a saying in my country that says something along the lines of “the worst kind of blind is the one that doesn’t want to see”, that said, i hope you have fun in-game.

Oxxy.7068:

There’s a saying in my country that says something along the lines of “the worst kind of blind is the one that doesn’t want to see”, that said, i hope you have fun in-game.

And how would you apply that saying?

Aza.2105:

spoj.9672:

Its not really subjective when its already been explained that you can get more survivability and more damage along with better group support by not taking 30 in valor. I dont understand why you are trying to argue against us. We were making valid explanations and alternatives and you seem to have a problem with that. This falls under the circumstance of forum stubborness and argueing for the sake of argueing. Anyone asking the same stuff ingame would actually be receptive to the advice given.

Its subjective since its only true for you and others who so happen to agree with you. You can pull out numbers in respect to how long it takes to finish a dungeon. But its irrelevant since its a self created goal. Gw2 dungeons aren’t on a timer, so creating a build that gets you through the dungeon as fast as possible means very little unless you as the individual cares.

If you feel I’m trying to argue then that is your problem not mine.

You didnt read did you. I wasnt talking about min max builds. I was saying there are casual alternatives to AH which do more for you in all regards. Its ignorant and wasteful to take it no matter how casual you approach the game.

The “AH and Guards” discussions feels so much like “GS and Mesmers” ones..

Oxxy.7068:

There’s a saying in my country that says something along the lines of “the worst kind of blind is the one that doesn’t want to see”, that said, i hope you have fun in-game.

Sounds a little like “if you disagree with me, you’re dumb” to me.

Yeah…

ThiBash.5634:

Oxxy.7068:

There’s a saying in my country that says something along the lines of “the worst kind of blind is the one that doesn’t want to see”, that said, i hope you have fun in-game.

Sounds a little like “if you disagree with me, you’re dumb” to me.

I wonder why.

Oxxy.7068:

I wonder why.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Me: Dude, the earth is round
Citizen A: Ahaha no, it is flat.
Me: But look at it’s shadow on the moon…
Citizen A: But if you swim too far you’ll fall on the horizon.
Me: <explains from various viewpoints that our planet is indeed round>
Citizen A: IT’S FLAT BECAUSE MY FEELINGS SAID SO.

You do realize that there’s no such thing as a 100% undisprovable fact, do you?

Then by all means please show me how AH is better than other traits, and how the earth ins’t round. I’ll be waiting.

Oxxy.7068:

Then by all means please show me how AH is better than other traits, and how the earth ins’t round. I’ll be waiting.

Glacial Heart is better than AH if you want to slow enemies down.

The earth isn’t round if the Matrix actually exists, to give one of the easier to understand of the many examples out there why the earth being round isn’t 100% certain.

Oxxy.7068:

Then by all means please show me how AH is better than other traits, and how the earth ins’t round. I’ll be waiting.

Stop trying to change the debate to suite your position. This isn’t a thread about whether AH is the best trait. It’s about viable damage-centric builds that use AH, as indicated by the thread title “A DPS Build that uses AH?”

But i did post one AH build that should work as a dps build. The difference between me and you is that i provided better alternatives instead of saying “Use it, it is DABEST according to my feelings”. And if you don’t want to debate with me, stop replying, it is that simple.

@Aza
Refer to Spoj’s post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/A-DPS-Build-that-uses-AH/3099504
So far i provided facts. I don’t think i’m a teacher, what i do think is that people come at the forums seeking information to be a better player, saying something like 15/15/30/5/5 and leaving at that ins’t going to help much.

How is that an insult? :|
I’d argue that you calling me childish and angry, or asking if i know how to change utilities are more insulting than that, but then again i didn’t find any of your comments particularly insulting…

This situation reminds me of my recent 3-men lyssa event. Everything goes smoothly, lyssa almost dead after about 1 minute and then he came.

The Warrior, The Beast, The Predator.

Lyssa suddenly stopped losing her hp. I tried to tell him very kindly to swap his weapon for something more beastly but he had too much dignity. Moral of the story? Replace friends with bads.

What I find most odd about all the AH hate is that while the 15/15/0/20/10 with 10 spare build is seen as a decent combination of dps and support, switching to 0/0/30/20/10 results in dps only around several percent lower in exchange for 450 toughness and AH.

I’ll admit the hp gained from AH even when using purging flame+mighty blow and extended hammer symbol isn’t amazing, and neither are the minor traits in valor. In fact, 15/15/0/x/x is probably better than 0/0/30/x/x due to the spammy virtue.. but realistically if the hammer build is seen as good, there’s no reason the ah variant should be labelled as trash.

There is no such thing as a DPS AH build and there never will be

Several percent lower? As opposed to doing a 15/25/0/20/10 which would give you the 15% damage modifiers(conditions and fire), as well as more crit chance? Also in dungeons like arah, I generally only have 1 shout on at a time to apply boons anyhow, so AH would be a big fat waste of time. Wall of reflect is too kitten strong, and Retreat should only be used to block for teammates, not to try and heal for 200 hp.

AH is bad, because it makes bad players feel like they should carry more shouts than necessary, even when consecrations would fit situations much better. Just my two cents.

Cat – you assumed the 10 spare went to radiance (15/25/0/20/10) whereas I put them in honor (15/15/0/30/10) for the additional blast finisher on every purging flames/hallowed ground. To clarify – going from 15/15/0/30/10 to 0/0/30/30/10 results in less than a 10% dps drop. If your starting point is 15/25/0/20/10 and you are happy with that, then putting the points into valor 0/0/30/20/10 with 10 spare – probably for zeal… is not such a great bet.

I was suggesting they should go to radiance. And saying that a 15/25/0/20/10 build was superior to the other build by a fair margin. However all this is a moot point to me. All people have to say is “play how I want”. I shall move on and just accept guards will keep using AH, sceptors, and auto attacking with staves from a 200 distance in dungeons.

I agree 15/25/0/20/10 is superior, but going 30 in valor isn’t the end of the world as a lot of people would have you believe. As long as you stick with the zerker gear that is.

A lot of people like 20 in virtues for the extra condi removal, in which case you’ve only got 30 points to play with in zeal/radiance. So it’s either 15/15 or 30 to valor, which is actually a fairly close call if you ignore the usefulness of blind spam.

What I find hilarious is I have been cleansing and High dps the whole time. With the Paladin 2.5 build I made 8 months ago. The only thing I change is my gear which you can see here. And for surely isn’t a kitten thing kitten on my dps. And that’s with Zeal in the trash somewhere.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARGoIyFYfAgYKqYGveQRFyQA-j0yAY/ARFCUyXgN5poV4QLuERj6aMlLq2dIy2bioZbOqQACWAA-w

Hit like a truck cleanse heal and don’t die. Because people can call 15/25 all they like. It’s not the end all. And you are not worthless if you don’t have it. Guys need to stop this BS of belittling other players. If you get the job done that is all that matters. Any one who has a problem with that can suck it.

In my case I get it done and make it look extremely easy. I do it every event and have easily 100+ videos showing it. Not using the so called best meta. Which goes to show you bring the player and the skill. Anyone can do that example. Do not listen to try hards tell you that you can’t. Just because you’re not doing the popular opinion. It’s just what it is a opinion that doesn’t mean anything.

Awesome builds, I loved the choice of an elite skill in your video. Very unique.

Aza.2105:

spoj.9672:

Its not really subjective when its already been explained that you can get more survivability and more damage along with better group support by not taking 30 in valor. I dont understand why you are trying to argue against us. We were making valid explanations and alternatives and you seem to have a problem with that. This falls under the circumstance of forum stubborness and argueing for the sake of argueing. Anyone asking the same stuff ingame would actually be receptive to the advice given.

Its subjective since its only true for you and others who so happen to agree with you. You can pull out numbers in respect to how long it takes to finish a dungeon. But its irrelevant since its a self created goal. Gw2 dungeons aren’t on a timer, so creating a build that gets you through the dungeon as fast as possible means very little unless you as the individual cares.

If you feel I’m trying to argue then that is your problem not mine.

You have it completely wrong though.
If what he was saying was subjective it would be an opinion. But, the fact remains that our elitist builds deal more damage, provide the same if not far better support, and we stay alive just as long if not much longer. This is not subjectional, it is fact. Whether dungeons are on a timer or not. Even if only us elitist can do it doesn’t make it a matter of opinion. We know what’s useful and what isn’t we provide this information readily to the public and you still argue.

@silentstorm, Does this look like 500 less per crit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U67QNskKYHs

Gotta love the doggies they work well in ganking. I showed that in Queens Gauntlet. Made it look silly with pet spam, kinda funny. But if you notice that was pretty much the last video I used it. But like more on the topic. It’s more about doing your job. If you do the job to me doesn’t matter how you did it. Long as you lived and actually did good dps. I don’t want a dead dps king I gotta rez every minute.

@Dempsey
Sigh did you really try to use a reflect spam/combo/with might stack with help as a dps test smdh. Stop the bs DnT

Silentstorm.7531:

Gotta love the doggies they work well in ganking. I showed that in Queens Gauntlet. Made it look silly with pet spam, kinda funny. But if you notice that was pretty much the last video I used it. But like more on the topic. It’s more about doing your job. If you do the job to me doesn’t matter how you did it. Long as you lived and actually did good dps. I don’t want a dead dps king I gotta rez every minute.

@Dempsey
Sigh did you really try to use a reflect spam/combo/with might stack with help as a dps test smdh. Stop the bs DnT

Reflect? wut?

Silentstorm.7531:

Gotta love the doggies they work well in ganking. I showed that in Queens Gauntlet. Made it look silly with pet spam, kinda funny. But if you notice that was pretty much the last video I used it. But like more on the topic. It’s more about doing your job. If you do the job to me doesn’t matter how you did it. Long as you lived and actually did good dps. I don’t want a dead dps king I gotta rez every minute.

@Dempsey
Sigh did you really try to use a reflect spam/combo/with might stack with help as a dps test smdh. Stop the bs DnT

That’s our point, we live, we have better dps, it isn’t a matter for debate it has been proven and publicly shown. Honestly even if you have to pick up a newbie full beserker gs warrior and all he does it 100b anytime he is up he’s doing more dps than you are.

Re: IF you honestly believe that that boss is being reflected then I can rest ashore that you have no knowledge of the boss encounter, and therefore far less experience than you claim to have.
It only further proves that that builds you post and provide are so much better have only been tested in open world PvE where you can quite literally run around with no traits at all and accomplish everything the open world has to offer.

Also I suppose my warrior with no such reflection traits or even weapons equipped able to do so, somehow managed to reflect an attack from the same boss?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwsH9Lc3qu8