Guild Wars 2

Silentstorm, I don’t understand why you have 20 in honor. The only reason I take honour is 30 honour 10 virtue for hammer cooldown , consecration and symbol duration, meaning you get two blast finishers per utility instead of one. The only other reason for honor would be 20 deep for symbol duration and letting the cooldown trait go.

Can’t see a reason to take it if you’re using gs though.

10/25/30/0/0 +5 would give you 20% more dmg modifier and a loadd of pwr/prec in exchange for the 2h cool down trait, the heal on aegis trait you have, and some hp. That’s a good deal for me. I’d be tempted to put the 5 back in honor for free vigor.

I don’t think AH is great especially if you’re using gs and not spamming shouts (bad playstyle anyway tbh, more mileage out of well timed reflects and retreat). However I do think the valor line gets a bad rep because of ah. It is actually a decent dps line with the crit dmg, but it’s not quite as good as anything with a dmg multiplier in. This means that while something like 20/25/20/0/0 +5 is probably top for max dps, it loses a lot of key guardian functionality and you end up trading for a warrior instead. 20/25/0/0/10 rectifies that somewhat and leaves you with 15 points to go back into valor if the goal is dps without caring about AH. Honestly though the valor line will only be for 15 percent crit damage at this stage. Nice, but you could get vigor, 10 percent boon dura and condi cure on virtue instead, which combined with renewed focus and purge flames makes you just as good as the old pure voice shouters for cleansing.

Tldr: my builds are 20/25/0/5/20 for gs, 15/15/0/30/10 for hammer boonstack, 15/25/0/20/10 selfish hammer. The only deviation for my gs build I am tempted by is 20/30/0/10/10 for the 1h traits (swap between 2h and 1h when whirling wrath and symbol are on cd) and some cooldown on retreat. Or 20/25/10/5/10 with the valor toughness to precision trait. This is purely to maximise dpsin the event I don’t need the extra in virtue for something and unscathed is not an option.

Silentstorm.7531:

Sigh did you really try to use a reflect spam/combo/with might stack with help as a dps test smdh. Stop the bs DnT

Yeah nobody uses Might in actual gameplay. Our bad.

And FYI, that was a boss in Arah p3 who had projectile attacks, hence the WoR. You see, you don’t know anything about this boss because you don’t do Arah. If you did do some of the game’s harder content you would be more familiar with your profession’s mechanics.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Silentstorm.7531:

Sigh did you really try to use a reflect spam/combo/with might stack with help as a dps test smdh. Stop the bs DnT

Yeah nobody uses Might in actual gameplay. Our bad.

And FYI, that was a boss in Arah p3 who had projectile attacks, hence the WoR. You see, you don’t know anything about this boss because you don’t do Arah. If you did do some of the game’s harder content you would be more familiar with your profession’s mechanics.

Hey hey now, his personal Fractal level is 12 or higher, I mean, we shouldn’t forget that he has tackled the harder content the game has to offer.

Also, not to forget camping staff on Jade maw and critting for about a third of my non-crit strikes is obviously the epitome of hitting like a truck and skilled gameplay.

Oh, and not to mention, dodging is for chumps.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Silentstorm.7531:

Sigh did you really try to use a reflect spam/combo/with might stack with help as a dps test smdh. Stop the bs DnT

Yeah nobody uses Might in actual gameplay. Our bad.

And FYI, that was a boss in Arah p3 who had projectile attacks, hence the WoR. You see, you don’t know anything about this boss because you don’t do Arah. If you did do some of the game’s harder content you would be more familiar with your profession’s mechanics.

nike didn’t you know? dodging, projectile mitigation and might-stacking are exploits. I think you should feel ashamed of yourselves. the only use of boons in general is to proc my AH and give me the sick heals.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Silentstorm.7531:

Sigh did you really try to use a reflect spam/combo/with might stack with help as a dps test smdh. Stop the bs DnT

Yeah nobody uses Might in actual gameplay. Our bad.

And FYI, that was a boss in Arah p3 who had projectile attacks, hence the WoR. You see, you don’t know anything about this boss because you don’t do Arah. If you did do some of the game’s harder content you would be more familiar with your profession’s mechanics.

My point was that that boss only really uses his projectile when you are casually ranging him.
@silent, the wall of reflect is really to protect everyone from the hands that throw rocks and knock people down. Basically, nothing that was reflected hit the boss at all.

swiftpaw.6397:

If you want to hate anyone for the fact that GC is the best build and all other builds are useless in dungeons.. Hate A-Net for designing the game that way.

Watching your guild streams, I’m struck by how many times members of your party are downed or defeated during trash runs because they carry no stun breaks or condition removal, and have no toughness or vitality. I wonder what’s worse for the average pug group? A balanced build that takes a little longer on the bosses, or a GC that can’t get to the boss encounter without dying?

swiftpaw.6397:

let me know when you beat our run speed times in your super awesome pvt stun breaker builds.

Don’t get mad; it was an honest question. I don’t think anyone argues that a full DPS party will have a fast run under perfect conditions and good RNG. Your guild’s videos prove that.

But your livestreams shows a very different story because you can’t edit out all the failed trash runs.

Is the goal “speed” records, or consistently successful dungeon runs? I think a lot of people would say the latter.

All I care for is improving my skill at the game and getting things done fast for money for skins, because I’m a chick and I like skins. Unfortunately, if I ever want to pug, because I like to meet new people.. I am constantly dealing with poor players who are misinformed. And I would love to see that change because it’s a real shame.

I understand what guys like you are trying to do. But you’re going about it the wrong way. Trust me I’ve been in MMO’s for 12 years. I’ve been reporting on them for 4 years. If you want the masses to follow treat them as equals. Not like they are beneath you for playing different. All that will do is make no one pay attention to you.

Berner.7289:

But your livestreams shows a very different story because you can’t edit out all the failed trash runs.

Is the goal “speed” records, or consistently successful dungeon runs? I think a lot of people would say the latter.

The goal is consistently fast dungeon runs, which is achieved. It also depends what trash runs you’re talking about; if it’s ones such as from Arah P2, builds are pretty much unrelated to the success or fail of those.

Player ability is more important than player build; but there comes a point where a build will cap a players potential.

As for on stream, mistakes happen, people mess up. This is all apart of being human, and no one can be mad at you for messing up once in a while, this applies to everyone, not just DnT members.

The difference is that DnT members are at least trying to perform their best, by using optimized builds and learning efficient tactics. Their failures hopefully result in learning, and from there they become better players. You can’t become a good player without learning from your mistakes, and build choice is one of them. You can run a bad build for so long, but one day you will need to realize the reality of your build choice, if you wish to continue improving, or simply just to not handicap yourself.

So before you try to belittle DnT members for failing something on stream, I’d like you to reflect on yourself and think: “Do I play perfectly every run?”

I’ve had the pleasure of playing with and learning from some of the best players the game currently hosts; and I can tell you that I’ve seen each and every one of them fail a trash run, or get hit with an attack they shouldn’t have. The difference? That’s the exception, not the expected.

hybrid.5027:

Player ability is more important than player build; but there comes a point where a build will cap a players potential.

And finally the light bulb goes on. Full glass cannon builds are highly susceptible to hard cc and stacked conditions — something rarely seen in boss encounters, but often faced in trash runs. Strengths and weaknesses. Pros and cons.

hybrid.5027:

So before you try to belittle DnT members for failing something on stream, I’d like you to reflect on yourself and think: “Do I play perfectly every run?”

I merely pointed out that a certain build (glass cannon) has a fundamental weakness, even if played by a talented player. Choosing a build that has a weakness doesn’t make someone a poor player, because it’s innate to the game. I wouldn’t call someone a “bad” or belittle anyone for that. No one should. And that’s my point, in a nutshell.

Berner.7289:

hybrid.5027:

Player ability is more important than player build; but there comes a point where a build will cap a players potential.

And finally the light bulb goes on. Full glass cannon builds are highly susceptible to hard cc and stacked conditions — something rarely seen in boss encounters, but often faced in trash runs. Strengths and weaknesses. Pros and cons.

hybrid.5027:

So before you try to belittle DnT members for failing something on stream, I’d like you to reflect on yourself and think: “Do I play perfectly every run?”

I merely pointed out that a certain build (glass cannon) has a fundamental weakness, even if played by a talented player. Choosing a build that has a weakness doesn’t make someone a poor player, because it’s innate to the game. I wouldn’t call someone a “bad” or belittle anyone for that. No one should. And that’s my point, in a nutshell.

I would avoid looking at it in terms of “pro’s and con’s”, but instead “What is the opportunity cost of building like this”.

The opportunity cost of going full glass cannon is survivability. A loss of suvivability can be countered by strong player skill, and smart use of team damage mitigation tools such as Aegis and reflects. In this scenario, our opportunity cost is minimal, as it can be compensated for by good individual and team play.

The opportunity cost of spec’ing heavily into defense, is damage. Damage cannot be compensated for. Once you have lost damage from a team build, it is gone for good. So your opportunity cost in this scenario is proportionately larger than going full berserker, as it is harder to compensate.

Obviously I’m assuming that in both situations, your parties have access to the same utilities and buffs (banners/might/vuln). What we’re comparing is a build that chooses to sacrifice damage for defense, and a build that sacrifices defense for damage. What we find is that if the player running the build is able, the opportunity cost for going full glass cannon is minor to non-existent, relative to a player running main tank (see: paladin 2.5).

The biggest factor of any comparison is player skill, I think everyone agrees to that. However; it seems illogical to me to assume that as a rule, the average player is capped to playing at a low level. There will be exceptions, but I can’t believe that it is the standard. Players end up capping their own ability due to self-imposed views of themselves, whether that is “this is too hard” or “I’m good enough to complete this, I don’t need to improve anymore”. Builds however, are a mathematical cap in potential.

Also, for the record. People calling others ‘bads’ (strictly ‘bads’, not bad) is one of my pet hates. Even then, I tend to only call people bad when I run out of patience and need to vent.

Of course people can play whatever spec they like when playing with friends. If you’re happy for the dungeon to take longer because you’re fooling around on teamspeak, messing around etc then of course you can turn up with a suboptimal build. However to do that to a pug group or people you don’t know is just rude. You’re wasting your time and wasting their time.

There is no drawback for a massive dps build or at least a very high dps build plus good support (eg 15/25/0/10/20… which is less than max damage but sacrifices a small amount of damage for fantastic group support) that cannot be rectified by a skilled play or a split second res by other skilled players.

@OP AH isnt the questions, its 30 points in valor, what traits you use is totally up to you.

GS/hammer/staff 10/25/30/x/x. Swap every 10 seconds to use cool downs.

Sword+Scepter 10/30/30/0/0. This is also one of the best (if not the best) single target builds around and especially with weapon swap and might stacking.

Both lack cool downs on shouts and consecrations but when i run any of them i use 5 different utilities in pve. Wall of reflection, shield of the avenger, purging flames (GS and cleanse thru symbols), smite conditions and lastly ofc the good old power signet.

So yeah you definitely have very good dps while going 30 points into valor since both honor and virtues have about the same as long as we exclude unscathered contender which i find most people cant exploit.

By all means dress up in zerker with scholars and put 30 points in valor. If you go one handers its probabaly the build with the highest dps around in most situations. At least i find it to be since it only relias on having burns alone on the target to perform max.

Learning how to play guardian the right way is better than running a build that will kitten yourself and your group. AH is a waste of 30 trait points that can be better spent to support the group instead of just yourself. If your just starting to play guardian or are struggling then running a set of knights armor + zerker trinkets then swapping to full zerk when you feel comfortable is the best option. The whole point to posting builds and videos showcasing you doing content is for the community’s skill level to grow. Zerker power builds are best for pve and are what people should work towards.

Currently, the best build is 10/25/0/0/25 gs burst + sword/focus rotations with points left for you to put in shout cd, rh strength, etc as it hits all the general damage modifiers and provides the right support . Another and more pug/beginner friendly option would be 15/15/0/20/20 hammer + gs or staff depending on the situation.

I’m not sure how calculating effective power of a build, the time it takes to complete content, and picking the traits that benefit your group are opinions.

Anyone putting points in valor for dps does not how to make a decent dps pve build.

My instance on AH is simple: It is ok to use if you’re learning your class, but after that you’re just wasting trait points.

If you play guardian for five months and still use it, you’re either super casual and don’t care that much about how you peform or is just wasting trait points. I’m not sure how you can think your build is just as good as 10/25~30/0/5~10/25 or something like that. There is a gap between running, lets say, 10/25/0/25/10 and 0/15/30/20/5, the former is a solid build, while the later is just bad.

I guess your staff crits are even better because of 5 target limit.

hybrid.5027:

The biggest factor of any comparison is player skill, I think everyone agrees to that. However; it seems illogical to me to assume that as a rule, the average player is capped to playing at a low level. There will be exceptions, but I can’t believe that it is the standard. Players end up capping their own ability due to self-imposed views of themselves, whether that is “this is too hard” or “I’m good enough to complete this, I don’t need to improve anymore”. Builds however, are a mathematical cap in potential.

I think this largely sums it up. When I suggested builds, it was with the mentality that every player isn’t going to start with a high level of skill, but that this skill level would grow over time. To this end, I suggested builds that offered the maximum possible payoff in the future in terms of damage, team utility, and – in the case of the 15/15 hammer builds – defense.

Now certainly a 0/0/30/30/10 or 0/0/30/20/20 will offer a more defensive set up than anything I listed, but for PvE content you are rarely doing much to help your party by just staying alive.

With skill growth in mind, it is much better to start playing with suboptimal gear in a build that has maximum payoff with optimal gear than to play with optimal gear but a sub optimal build.

When you’ve been playing with soldier’s gear and a “good” build, when you start getting comfortable with content and switch that first piece of gear to knight’s, there will be a marginal increase in damage taken and in dps, but your play style remains unchanged. The same will hold true for the second piece of knights… final piece of knights… first piece of berserkers… etc

On the other hand, if you’re playing with an AH build once you’re comfortable with content and wish to contribute more to the team, just one point out of valor and your whole play style has to change.

It is that reason why I will always strongly argue against builds taking AH in PvE. it locks you 30 deep in a trait line that’s only skill to support the party is Strength in Numbers which only requires a 10 point investment.

Compare this to playing a 15/15/0/20/10 hammer build wearing soldiers gear and you are: applying constant protection to your party, chain blinding trash mobs, stacking vuln, have the best reflect uptime skill, and can put the extra points into valor for team defense or virtues for condition cleansing.

It doesn’t matter if this player is the most casual that only plays 1 day a week and thus never improves to using better gear, they will always be doing more to support their party than a player with the same skill level putting 30 in valor with more offensive gear.

al·tru·is·tic

1. showing a disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others; unselfish.

Guardian is not a primarily DPS class but a party support class, any DPS we do is bonus to the party. With that in mind, how altruistic are we being by locking up 30 trait points with the only interest of keeping us alive when they can be better spent supporting the party with us wearing defensive gear which has no relavance on party support?

What happens when you still do that despite that Durend? Also your taking into account if you were trying to do support build. If that was the case I’d use a different build. I however was going for a dps/support. Designed to carry so to speak. Which is what I do with the combo.

Again no one can disprove that fact. Which is why its popular in the first place. But like I said all you doing is pushing people to me. Who dislike forum trash talkers. Whatever your goal is it’s failing big time. And at the end of the day. I’m still going to do what I do regardless no less popular. Don’t know what about it’s over some of you didn’t get. Judging how posts are vanishing maybe time for us all to be quiet.

You can carry with a full offensive warrior.

Silentstorm.7531:

What happens when you still do that despite that Durend? Also your taking into account if you were trying to do support build. If that was the case I’d use a different build. I however was going for a dps/support. Designed to carry so to speak. Which is what I do with the combo.

Again no one can disprove that fact. Which is why its popular in the first place. But like I said all you doing is pushing people to me. Who dislike forum trash talkers. Whatever your goal is it’s failing big time. And at the end of the day. I’m still going to do what I do regardless no less popular. Don’t know what about it’s over some of you didn’t get. Judging how posts are vanishing maybe time for us all to be quiet.

That’s just the thing, beyond a 15/15 hammer, I’ve also suggested 20/25 GS build, a 10/30 s/f build. I have offered options for both maximum offense as well as with defense mixed in all the while keeping party utility as my number one goal. Sure all the builds are going to be mostly “support” and not “dps” when you put on defensive gear, but that’s the thing, I see potential for improvement in my fellow players and that with time they can equip the offensive gear and be both “dps and support”

Designed to carry so to speak.

I think this sentence proves perfectly what you see in your fellow players.

@Durend
You make it sound like I don’t have Berserkers on I do. I just scaled it back a little http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFABoIyFYfAgYKqYGveQRFyQA-jkyAYfgkfQSeTjtwpxWBFi01YKXUt7Qkt3ERz2cUhAEsAA-w
Only difference is I use scholar now.

Full berserker gear isn’t that much higher dps wise. So it comes down to traits. I have a full dps build. And full berserkers to put on. Which is why in the video you hear me say I scaled it back. So dudes saying it doesn’t hit hard is full of it. With what i have right now highest no help crit i hit with staff is 1650 it varies. No it’s not 1800 but considering I scaled it back on purpose. I don’t expect it to.

I also go on to say it’s not the highest dps build. And direct them to other builds outside of mine. So you got guys who don’t tell the whole truth here as well. And just say what they want to fit the argument. I also mention a 3.0 I never posted. Because I was forever waiting for that miracle patch. {We never got it} So now I have dudes raging because I decided to shave full dps on purpose. And make a build I liked. And guess what people liked it.

I didn’t even anticipate how much. And still shocked I’m still getting how do I use this build and they love it. So the problem is why do you guys care. And who made you judge jury and excutioneer to deem me or anyone else wrong.

haviz.1340:

Anyone putting points in valor for dps does not how to make a decent dps pve build.

err… 10/30/30/0/0 1h is the highest dps guardian build out there. That or 20/25/25 2h.
Or do you mean the lack of support?

fadeaway.2807:

haviz.1340:

Anyone putting points in valor for dps does not how to make a decent dps pve build.

err... 10/30/30/0/0 1h is the highest dps guardian build out there. That or 20/25/25 2h.
Or do you mean the lack of support?

20/25/15/0/10 or 20/30/10/0/10 using 1h+2h sword rotation, i think. I’ll check it quick.

Edit: 20/30/10/0/10 without stacking sigils/etc. 20/25/15/0/10 in an actal ingame setting.

Silentstorm.7531:

Full berserker gear isn’t that much higher dps wise. So it comes down to traits. I have a full dps build.

The only thing that are somehow “dps’ish” in that build are the few berserker pieces and the runes. The traits are kitten, as usual.

Ok… I’ll bite.

damage forumla for average dps = power * (1 + crit chance % * (crit damage %)) * (total damage mods)

Damage modifiers also stack multiplicatively. So if you have 10% from zeal adapt and 10% from radiance 25 minor you don’t have a 20% increase but rather 1.1 * 1.1 = 21%

This effect will only increase further through other modifiers on sigils/food(potions)/other traits.

So if we start with full berserker gear with scholar we’ll have

2154 * ( 1 + .39 (.78[added crit damage] + .5[bass crit damage])) * (1.1[scholar] * 1.1 [potion] * 1.1 [slaying/night sigil])
= 2145 * (1 + .39 (1.28)) * 1.33
= 2154 * (1 + .499) * 1.33 <- here we see the first problem
= 2154 * 1.99
= 4286

Where marked we see the issue, crit damage is nerfed by crit chance. This will always be the case. People have done tests on the indestructible golems in heart of the mists with builds that have over 100% crit chance, and they would still miss crits on occasion, thus .99 is the best crit chance you’ll get.

Anyway, investing 10 points and zeal and 25 points in radiance we get this version

= 2254 (1 + .51 (1.28[unchanged from earlier]))(1.33[base from earlier] * 1.1[firey wrath] * 1.1 [radiant power] * 1.05[powerful blades])
= 2254 (1.65)(1.69)
= 6296 (2.79 total of crit mod * damage mod)

putting those same points into valor and the last five into radiance to improve crit chance

= 2145 * (1 + .41 (1.58)) * 1.33
= 4700 (2.19 total of crit mod * damage mod)

putting them into zeal instead is only slightly better at 4737.

Either way you look at it the difference is 1.5k difference in DPS. I’ll applauded your build for taking 15 in radiance for the ability to spam blind + vuln for each mob killed, but you have to spend an extra 10 points to get that party support whereas the 10/25/x/x/x does not. That now leaves you 25 points to pick up party utility whereas the 10/25 build still has 45 points open for utility.

Yes your build can take damage better then 10/25, but that’s where I keep saying, build defense with armor and as you get better at using dodges/blinds/aegis/renewed focus/shelter/focus shield(for s/f builds) to mitigate damage improve to higher dps gear.

The problem with AH is that it is a crutch. You see green numbers covering you and think that is helping you stay alive. Earlier today when running SE I was with an AH guard. He was running low on health and swapped to staff for empower. I proceeded to watch his health spike up on each tick of empower and spike right back down for the hits he was forced to take due to planting himself with the skill for a 0 net gain.

All the hits however were ranged, so if he would of instead used wall of reflection, his would of still had 0 net gain health, but the mobs would of taken a lot more damage.

AH was his crutch, he noticed he was low, and instantly went to heal. Without that crutch he could of realized he could of used WoR and used the extra time to either kill the mobs or for his healing skill to come off CD.

@Durend
I agree with you on that which is why a month or two ago i did this 3.0
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFABoIyFYfAgYKqYGveQRFyQA-jkyAYLgkPQyjRjtwpxWBFiU1o6aMt7Qkt3ERz2cUhAEsAA-w

But I’m not sure I like it over 2.5 which is why I never posted it. One day I will maybe when I get a legendary staff etc. Either way I don’t struggle supporting. Which is a lot of the reason I use the staff. I’ll be fine people will be fine. I say it again it’s not your place to determine what I see fit. And if you didn’t get it by now I’m not going to change what I do.

@ Bright. Hahahaha, I think you missed the first half of my post you quoted. I’ve been with you the whole time on “no AH”

I simply put that quote in there to agree with it XD

5 paragraphs though… I’d feel bad if you wrote that for nothing. Let’s say you convinced me not to revert to AH for the next 5 months

durend.6237:

@ Bright. Hahahaha, I think you missed the first half of my post you quoted. I’ve been with you the whole time on “no AH”

I simply put that quote in there to agree with it XD

5 paragraphs though… I’d feel bad if you wrote that for nothing. Let’s say you convinced me not to revert to AH for the next 5 months

Lol, I got that as ‘well Bright, if you’re so logical, provide me logic why AH is bad’…

Bright.9160:

durend.6237:

@ Bright. Hahahaha, I think you missed the first half of my post you quoted. I’ve been with you the whole time on “no AH”

I simply put that quote in there to agree with it XD

5 paragraphs though… I’d feel bad if you wrote that for nothing. Let’s say you convinced me not to revert to AH for the next 5 months

Lol, I got that as ‘well Bright, if you’re so logical, provide me logic why AH is bad’…

Nah, that’s too easy. I’d have to make it challenging “provide me with logic why AH is good”

I haven’t seen anything to give me that yet aside from “yay heals”

Still haven’t seen a counter argument to my “why not play a good build with defensive gear and work your way up” argument either >.>

Just did a quick calculation where i compared my usual (not maximum damage 10/25/0/10/25) build with "suboptimal" food/stacking sigil (solo lupi setup) to the one he linked in this thread.
Result: I deal 264% of his damage, assuming he camps greatsword and uses all skills on cooldown in a solo setting and still 210% of his damage in a group setting.
While, as a sidenote, supporting much more than him.
Just for science, when i take our usual circumstances into account i’d deal over 520% of his damage. Again, while supporting way more than his build allows him to.

Silentstorm.7531:

Also as I said fractals footage was old. I just didn’t upload it until then. My staff crits are 1600ish. I’m actually standing in game with 10 people right now looking at it. They kinda saying wtf is wrong with you guys. Like I said keep going all you doing is making people seek me out.

A super casual example of the type of dps your build isn’t capable of, since videos are what matters.

I’m glad people are seeking you out, you deserve every dollar your machinima partnership will pay you. I do wonder, why do you builds come out with iterations in .5 increments? Are there 4 proto-build iterations that aren’t ready for public consumption? What if one of those proto-builds (2.7 for example) is perfect? Would you release it as 2.7, or just call it 3.0? These are the types of questions people care about.

Get ready for my dagger necro 2.1 build. Its gonna be stronk.

Silentstorm.7531:

Like I said the difference isn’t even worth caring about. It’s all about what the player wants. I’m losing 200-400 in point damage. That’s all stop being drama mommas. When you play correctly that doesn’t matter.

Hell the 3.0 version that I did live stream the gap is even less. But your more vulnerable. Also consider I don’t have a ascended staff and still doing 1600. Don’t think I care enough to make a Ascended Staff. I rather make or buy the legendary one.

nearly 3k staff hit, self buffed/debuffed only. Build: 10/30/0/10/20.

Do I win?

Nope durend
I said stand there and attack. Not buff and attack nice try though. Is nice staff damage after the swap though. You guys are funny trying to short cut.

fadeaway.2807:

err… 10/30/30/0/0 1h is the highest dps guardian build out there. That or 20/25/25 2h.
Or do you mean the lack of support?

And what traits do you pick with so many points in valour? Few more percent to crit. There is nothing except critical damage this trait line has for whatever reason. You do not make a build around trait lines bonuses only. Plus, valor with the exception of strength in numbers, is a complete selfish trait line, it is like picking 5 signets instead of banners because your dps would be higher. Finally, you have no vigour which means you need a team support to sustain yourself.

tl;dr apply practical thinking into spreadsheets.

Oxxy.7068:

Anicetus.1253:

Just did a quick calculation where i compared my usual (not maximum damage 10/25/0/10/25) build with “suboptimal” food/stacking sigil (solo lupi setup) to the one he linked in this thread.
Result: I deal 264% of his damage, assuming he camps greatsword and uses all skills on cooldown in a solo setting and still 210% of his damage in a group setting.
While, as a sidenote, supporting much more than him.
Just for science, when i take our usual circumstances into account i’d deal over 520% of his damage. Again, while supporting way more than his build allows him to.

You know he’ll call it bullkitten and say it is not noticeable right?

Ooooh, i forgot factoring in that he uses staff!
Assuming he plays like in the jade maw video i’d deal 772,78% more damage.

The test was stand there and auto attack.
It wasn’t buff up and go ham.

Silentstorm, I apologise if my post makes it sound like I am ganging up on you.. but I have some numbers here.

If we take your build as linked (celestial, valk, pwr/vit food) as build A.
20/25/0/0/25 in full zerker gear/food as build B.
Your build but with full zerker gear/food as build C.

Build B has roughly 34% more effective power than build A.
Build B still has roughly 27% more effective power than build C.

The above assumed you get no damage increase from power of the virtuous. In reality this could be up to 8%. If on the other end of the line you assume the full 8% bonus damage, the difference between build A and build B increases to 44%. And the gap between build B and build C increases to 37%.

The biggest problem comes when we look at what you gained in exchange for that huge dps loss.
3000hp?
300 toughness?
Might and burning when you block?
20% cooldown reduction on 2h?
AH?
None of the above help you kill the target faster or keep your group alive. The only benefits you get are self only, and they’re not great benefits at that. In fact by killing targets slower you endanger yourself and your group even more.
In addition to that you lose out on a bunch of boon duration, consecration mastery, and condi removal.

This doesn’t mean that valor is useless though. In fact you could do a 10/30/30/0/0 build and have dps similar to build B listed above AND have the option of dancing between 2h and 1h/focus. The problem is exactly the same though – you lose out on a bunch of boon duration, consecration mastery, and condi removal. Your big problem arises because you didn’t take valor as the third and final part of a dps beast (the first two parts being zeal and radiance) you took it and honor with the intention of defensive play.

When building good groups you put 5 of the highest damage dealing people together, notice that they lack condi removal, reflects, utility etc and then ask “who can sacrifice the least dps for the most group condi removal/reflects/utility?”. The answer comes in the form of the dps guardian. What your build has done however is stripped off the dps and provided none of what the group wanted in exchange.

This thread really needs to be locked because it has run it’s course. There’s nothing wrong with running a AH build in mostly or full zerker. Yes, ofc there are other builds out there that will give higher dps. However just because you use AH doesn’t mean you’re a bad player or not contributing.

Berner.7289:

swiftpaw.6397:

let me know when you beat our run speed times in your super awesome pvt stun breaker builds.

Don’t get mad; it was an honest question. I don’t think anyone argues that a full DPS party will have a fast run under perfect conditions and good RNG. Your guild’s videos prove that.

But your livestreams shows a very different story because you can’t edit out all the failed trash runs.

Is the goal “speed” records, or consistently successful dungeon runs? I think a lot of people would say the latter.

You still don’t get it though just because in stream we don’t play top notch at all possible times doesn’t mean we are slower than pugs.

We screw up now and again sure, we may go down, and sometimes die; absolutely. But the biggest difference is that we learn from our mistakes, and try not to do it again. Even if we do go down or die, our groups are doing far better than any pugs, and still clearing it far faster.

So yes we still have consistently successful dungeon clears, everyday. True our videos for speed clears are kitten near full perfect, but that’s what you do to get such great videos. But please don’t try that whole “you edited the runs to make them perfect” story, it’s rather childish.

Really if you think going day in and day out without ever going down is a sign of a good build, then you must not know that much about the game.

Berner.7289:

swiftpaw.6397:

let me know when you beat our run speed times in your super awesome pvt stun breaker builds.

Don’t get mad; it was an honest question. I don’t think anyone argues that a full DPS party will have a fast run under perfect conditions and good RNG. Your guild’s videos prove that.

But your livestreams shows a very different story because you can’t edit out all the failed trash runs.

Is the goal “speed” records, or consistently successful dungeon runs? I think a lot of people would say the latter.

There is a difference between casual runs and speed run records. Speed run records take hours to accomplish and we demand perfection of ourselves. Our casual runs are obviously not intended to be speed run records, and shouldn’t be taken as if they were failed attempts at a record when they are just a casual dungeon run.

Our goal is both speed records AND consistent success. Our casual runs, even when someone kitten s and goes down, are faster AND cleaner than pugs. What you don’t seem to get is that we could play slow and defensively and use ranged strats and exploits to have “clean” runs where no one goes down. But that would still be slower and less efficient than a run where we go balls out and a person goes down. So yes, despite a run being “messy” here or there they are “consistently successful” in that they are easier and faster than the alternative.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

What you don’t seem to get is that we could play slow and defensively and use ranged strats and exploits to have “clean” runs where no one goes down. But that would still be slower and less efficient than a run where we go balls out and a person goes down. So yes, despite a run being “messy” here or there they are “consistently successful” in that they are easier and faster than the alternative.

Yeah, you missed the point entirely. When DnT members fail a couple of trash runs, the remainder of the party will maybe laugh and make forum posts while they wait. When PUG players fail a couple of trash runs they often get a vote-kick and a loading screen.

Under the current dungeon system, you can hardly fault the average player for choosing a build with better sustain. A balance of damage, sustain, and support will get the average PUG players to the reward screen of dungeons more consistently than maxing two of the three.

[quote=3132174;Berner.7289:]

Damage comes from damage multipliers as well as stats. An AH build looses out on tonnes of stats aswell as atleast 25% damage from trait multipliers. Even if you think you deal high damage using AH you don’t. Convince yourself all you want, AH is a BAD trait as it requires 30 points in a pretty useless trait and has no help to your team. The point of a guardian is to be a ‘selfless defender’ what the hell is selfless about keeping yourself alive better missing out on damage which kills stuff quicker which puts less pressure on your team instead of killing stuff longer thinking you are an anchor even though aggro mechanics is far more complicated than just stacking toughness. to put this straight and people who don’t use AH will agree with me here.

YOU CANNOT BE A DPS AND USE AH

Painbow.6059:

to put this straight and people who don’t use AH will agree with me here.

YOU CANNOT BE A DPS AND USE AH

I don’t use AH, and I don’t agree with you. Stop yelling, and stop assuming.

Berner.7289:

I don’t use AH, and I don’t agree with you. Stop yelling, and stop assuming.

+1

You can have AH and DPS. Just don’t expect to look like a guardian. DPS, AH, adequate support; pick 2.

fadeaway.2807:

Berner.7289:

I don’t use AH, and I don’t agree with you. Stop yelling, and stop assuming.

+1

You can have AH and DPS. Just don’t expect to look like a guardian. DPS, AH, adequate support; pick 2.

You shouldn’t have to pick 2, people should just know it should always be: DPS + Adequate support.