Guild Wars 2

I’m not a huge fan of threads complaining about balance. I see them all the time here in the forums and most of the time I try to ignore them as best I can. Enough is enough. I’ve been swapping around classes lately in tPvP really trying to get a feel for more mechanics (previously I almost exclusively played the guardian). My frustrations are beginning to stack up.

I’ve noticed some serious balance issues in regards to trying build a more damage oriented guardian. I have no reliable boon removal to fight against a bunker. I have no reliable condition pressure. I don’t even really have much of a way to exit a fight once I’m in one (retreat?). It seems as if guardians have been pigeonholed into being only a bunker.

I mean, take our “boon removal,” for example: Searing Flames- When you apply burning to a foe, remove a boon. This effect can only trigger once every 20 seconds.
—20 seconds? Really? I can’t even apply burning all that reliably. Sure, virtue of justice applies it every 5th attack, but unless you’re using the sword that’s not even going to happen more than once every 5 seconds or more.

Let’s compare that to a Mesmer: Shattered Concentration- Shatter skills remove a boon on hit.
—Hmm. Now, I’m pretty sure this removes a boon for each hit the shatter skill causes, but let’s assume it just takes off one boon each time you hit it regardless of the number of clones you have. Mind wrack, without traits, has a 15 sec cooldown. That’s half of virtue of justice, so at the minimum you can take of two boons in 15 sec. Then you have three other shatter skills that do the same. Oh and if you trait into it (and let’s be honest, all good tourney Mesmers do), you get another full round of shatter skills at 50% hp. So, at the minimum, in a 30sec or so fight you can take off at least 8-10 boons.

That’s not even to mention thieves and the prevalence of S/d’s boon removal. 2 boons per 3 sec? Come on now. Both of those classes can take me out with zero problems when I’m a bunker because they rip apart my boons. So let’s say I take the middle ground and build a hybrid guardian. I’m not as solid as a bunker, and can’t do as much damage as a guardian with a berserker amulet. I sit somewhere around 2700 attack or so at a good balance of defense and offense. I can’t kill a thief because if I get the upper hand, he will stealth out or use his shortbow/shadow step. I can’t really kill a mesmer unless I use a greatsword because I get overwhelmed by clones/shatters. I certainly can’t kill a bunker guardian, or engineer, or ranger, or elementalist. I might be able to take a warrior and maybe a necro depending on what he has in his slot skills.

I just don’t get it. Even if I’m full bunker, I’m useless without a teammate or two. Those damage classes I listed above demolish me due to boon removal. If I go full damage, I might be able to take them (if they slip up), but have no stealth, no shadowstep, nothing to get me out of the fight if they gain the upper hand. And unlike both the thief and the mesmer, I can’t kill a bunker.

If anyone has some helpful input on this, I’d appreciate it. If I’m missing something, that would be great to know, too. I don’t want to always have to play the same role on my favorite class to be competitive, which is really the heart of the issue.

hm, at least wait until after the 25th before posting this. Perhaps a lot will change, perhaps it will be more balanced out. Here are the leaked patch notes that has been floating around. http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1gr1nh/skill_traits_patch_notesleakedunconfirmed/

Perhaps you are correct, Coltz. It may have been a bit preemptive based on that, but I really hope they do some work on the guardian. I guess I can keep my fingers crossed that the official patch notes will mirror the leaks.

I could say you are “bad” and walk away… but that would make me feel like some kittened wow player.

sooo, have you tried great sword/mace,focus yet? i use it in spvp, you will be a bunker that can (if done right) pop out enough damage to sit someone down. also it may be getting buffed so you can pump out more healing while attacking players and holding points… that is if the leaked info is correct…

i guess what im really trying to say is, we dont need more damage. what you need is to either realize you are playing a “guardian” or realize you havent tested enough specs for the play style you like.

Damage wise.. Greatsword spin does a ton of dmg. Have you tried hammer and greatsword? where u can do ring of warding combo it with GS chain pull and then use number 2 to rip everyone apart?. ( yes the chains pull enemies through ring of warding and they can;t get out afterwards )

Just some helpful hints.. Oo Don;t forget to spam F1 whenever you can for the burn. Guardians are built to last longer than your opponent but in this cases you can definitly do DMG to go on the offensive. Especailly with a 1handed sword and right hand strength AND NULL SIGIL for boon removal xD . gl ~

Ironically I started doing tons of experiment and theory crafting on guardians after a guardian wiped out my whole party solo. Doing TONS of dmg it is possible ~

• he friggin 1 man army defend that castle #@! *

You’re playing the wrong profession. Guardians aren’t about boon stripping or condition spreading, we’re about using burns, raw damage, symbols, and mobility/control. You can play a DPS based guardian and do very well

You can run out of fight as a guardian as long as You have staff on swap.
While retreating (running in oposite direction than enemy) place Line of warding before you (You must a little train this – point is that on end of cast line appeared on you – so while You are running You must place it little before You)
and after crossing it drop Symbol of Swiftness under Your legs (to catch swift),
also wall of reflection may be good thing.
all of this will work while You are retreating (in group or before group) – while You are not primary target for enemies, that method will let You escape (I escaped by that with 50 lvl guardian from situations where my 80 lvl ranger bunker wouldn’t make it.)
also shelter on healing would be good option because of block.

btw. as for me guardian is gw2 version of gw1 paragon – so We (guardians) are best in defensive/supporting playstyle. but can be played in another way – as guys told about dps guardians.
(PS. on some intsances Paragon in GW1 was a must in party and was nearly keeping party alive (with little help of two monks :P)

@Coltz ombo You where talking about would work only if:
1. enemies were already in range of ring of warding
2. if not point 1 You should take gs pull enemies toward You swap to hammer create ring of warding swap to gw and use Whirling wrath – sorry swap weapon cd is too long for that

Of course you could say that, Twitch. I’m not worried about your perception of my play skill. I’m rank 39 and can hold my own against most. Mind sharing a link to your GS/Mace+focus build? like I said in the OP, if I’m missing something I’d like to know what that is.

Mrauls, you’re kinda missing the point. From a competitive pvp standpoint, we don’t even apply much burning pressure, let alone consistently enough to get through condition removal. Our raw damage isn’t very high and I really have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to mobility. We do have lots of control, that point I’m not contesting. The point is that this game was marketed as being able to play however you want to play. The trait lines just don’t allow for such when it comes to competitive pvp. If you have a dps build that you’re getting success with, feel free to share it; I’d love to test it out.

Lord Trejgon, I’m well aware of the staff combo to get out of a tight spot. However, given that staff is a bunker support weapon, it’s not what I’m using in any type of dps build.

I run 0/5/30/30/5 with everything berserker. My mobility comes from GS and sword. Condition clearing allows me to stay pretty mobile against any class. My raw damage can spike depending on the gear of my opponent, but I consistently hit high. I’ve played 10/30/0/30/0 before, and I can say it has a higher damage output for less survivability. I believe there are a lot of viable builds out there, it just depends on where you find your niche. The key to what I do is making sure I don’t allow a gap to develop between me and my opponent

I PvE and WvW (I do fight clubs a lot)

Hi Frustrated Guardian, I was once like you. I fully understood your frustration. From your post I can see you are still not clear how powerful a Guardian is.
Guardian is the King of AOE DPS. The way of Guardian is to be unstoppable, to never retreat in a fight, forever pursue your opponent even if you are healing (Shelter) or Renewed Focus. IMHO,a bunker guardian is a burden to a competitive tpvp. Ele Bunker and Engineer Condition Bunker is more reliable. Bunker Guardian completely undermined the true purpose of Guard as it is a sin if you neglect the potential AOE DPS of a Guardian.

I’ve never like to be the punching bag while pathetically waiting for teammate’s aid. Here’s my build on pvp:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARSlUgKDHHyKEf4ERli4dPMFYMjXPgYEbIA-ToAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNAZxB

Weapon
Hammer + Greatsword
Runes of Lyssa : Guardian’s favorite abuse runes (trigger all boons for 5secs after Renewed Focus + Clear ALL of your conditions) Works best to stomp on warrior, engineer.

Utilities
Purge Condition : best move in the game,heal condition, AOE dmg 3k, and heal you if traited. 16secs cool down? OMG! OP!
Judge Intervention : Surprise Attack, Retreat Plan, Longest Teleport Range ingame! OP!
Stand Your Ground : Aoe stability 5secs with 24secs cooldown? OP!

Combo:
Hammer(5) + Judge Intervention, now that if they are trap in the Ring of Ward, instantly Swap GS(4)(2)(5), Purge Condition for extra damage IF you got condition. Autoattack and non-stop chasing. Pull them back when they are about to heal(i got a habit of pulling them too soon and burst my Purge Condition cause it looks so cool xD), in most cases if this pull off perfectly, thief and mesmer will die.
This combo works great with a Trap Ranger. I used to owned 3 player at once with just ranger easily lay down the trap staying on top on mid (Forest of Niflhel)

In normal fight, starts with Hammer, get near your opponent, swap GS so the chill hits on them, and use GS (2) on them instantly. 70% will hits.
The secret way to win lies on the sigil of intelligent, PLEASE use Hammer (2) once you swap it. Instant 5k aoe dmg, your teamate will love you.

VS thief
There is only 2 types of thief, one that burst you down, another that slowly kills you with condition. Burst thief is very predictable, they started their burst with venom to halt you. That’s when you hit your panic button, Renewed Focus to counter their burst. I always use hammer against thief, its so easy to trigger your AOE Reta and watch them kill themself, and, do not stop to swing your hammer even when they are stealth. Stay in your symbol of protection, trust your hammer, their dagger will lose.

VS mesmer
Mesmer is designed fully to cater the function of a duelist. To lose to them is nothing surprise of. In fact , they should be ashamed of themself if they couldn’t kill you. A good mesmer always stays away from group fight unless they are support build,which is kinda rare in hotjoin pvp. To kill a mesmer, first you must distinguish the real one and also their moving patterns(strafe left right rear, lay down their hand during casting/healing). In most cases, mesmer would stay from a distance from you. Use Stand Your Ground first before engage on the combo i mentioned earlier. Postponed the GS(4)(2) awhile after you trapped them cause a fast reflex mesmer will use BlurrFrenzy or Distortion. Most mesmer got Blink in their disposal, be keen on their skill and force them to use it or your combo will be a missed on them.

Never give up ! That’s the guardian way!

Source:
Main Guardian
Rank 31 PVP
Aurora Glade

Mrauls, thank you for the build input. I’m not sure if it will translate to pvp, as that’s my primary focus, but I’ll look into it!

yLoon, I’m going to give your build a shot. Thank you for the constructive post and explanations. I’ve been playing bunker for so long now on the guardian it becomes hard to see things from outside that box, hence my post here.

Anyone else with helpful builds or feedback, please feel free to share. Ideas are good!

I would gladly show you in hotjoin if you are interested to =p
However, for now, im gonna sleep xD

Good luck trying!

I agree with part of this post. Killing a bunker as a glass cannon guardian is difficult.

Beating a mesmer is going to be difficult and require some skill. You should be able to take down a thief, particularly a burst thief. A stealth spammer is a bit more complicated.

If you are intent on soloing, try one of those boon duration+healing power guardian builds.

When I run dps in pvp, there are two builds I primarily use. First one, is more tanky and more support. Second is just raw dps.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8dlUgyCXFyvDfIFRuAbBYPwI8741DHSRGC-TsAg0CsIqRVjrGTNyas1MwYFyuAA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8dlUgSDHHyNEf4Eh1DAKQ/VVIeXPcIEbIA-TsAg0CsIqRVjrGTNyas1MwYFyuAA

They serve me well in both tpvp and spvp. Also check out Silven’s thread, think that would help.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Silven-s-PvP-Guardian-Build-Guide/page/3#post2105555

yLoon You forgot that Stand Your Ground also grants Retaliation

about my previous post – yes that is more bunker thing but I like to be bunker
(You can say that being bunker is my playstyle)

and about guardian as dps class….
it’s all about taking proper weapons and traits

Before you continue your discussion I’d like to clear some things.
You cannot compare a guardian in sPvP to a WvW guardian. Being an offensive guardian in WvW is possible due to the amount of stat-freedom as well as the extra help from food buffs.
Guardians can deal huge amounts of dmg going 10/30/30 scepter/focus, sword/torch and meditations. This said; It is very subpar in both dmg and survivability to other classes that apply for the same role.

There is a difference in doing good while playing hot-join or solo-roaming and actually being competitive in tPvP. For the latter as of this moment therer is no way an offensive guardian would be preferred to another class.
To answer your question (assuming you’re playing tPvP) = Yes, the only choice you have atm is to be a bunker.
The 10/30/30 build might work in a very niche team comp, I havn’t tried it

There are many builds out there. Hybrid-GS guardians are actually very strong in tPvP, also pure dps-guardians are considered very strong. Just not popular enough and because of that the majority believe it’s not viable. As we played highly competitive with a dps-guardian I can tell you it’s not a bad choice at all. It just has to fit into the team-comp.

KrisHQ.4719:

Before you continue your discussion I’d like to clear some things.
You cannot compare a guardian in sPvP to a WvW guardian. Being an offensive guardian in WvW is possible due to the amount of stat-freedom as well as the extra help from food buffs.
Guardians can deal huge amounts of dmg going 10/30/30 scepter/focus, sword/torch and meditations. This said; It is very subpar in both dmg and survivability to other classes that apply for the same role.

There is a difference in doing good while playing hot-join or solo-roaming and actually being competitive in tPvP. For the latter as of this moment therer is no way an offensive guardian would be preferred to another class.
To answer your question (assuming you’re playing tPvP) = Yes, the only choice you have atm is to be a bunker.
The 10/30/30 build might work in a very niche team comp, I havn’t tried it

This is pretty much exactly my point right here. Again, to those of you that are posting WvW builds or PvE builds, they’re just not viable in tPvP; it’s a completely different environment. Even hotjoin builds aren’t necessarily applicable there. And the ending sentiments pretty much echo my frustrations: the offensive guardian simply cannot compete with what other classes have to offer in the damage department, or mobility department, or killing a bunker….it’s all done better by multiple other classes. Hell, even the bunker role seems to be done more viably by engineers and rangers because they can actually put out enough damage to kill someone 1v1. Staff + Hammer? Forget about it. You can control a point, sure, but no better than an engineer can, and they can self rez.

@Logical Paradox You are the first man i see who admit that in SOMETHING ranger is better from any proffesion
and now go and tell it that old criers in ranger forums

btw. guardian have one thing – maybe as dps You won’t outdmg some classes…
but guardian dps is a way more survivable than any other class dps build.
and You are still supporting (You forgot one thing – maybe ppl forgot but in 5v5 tPvP giving massive amount of boons to allies could be good) that are things that any other class have.
but there You have something about guardians: our class sense is bounded with the old sunspear order teaching (from gw1) “Sunspears, and remember – You never Fight Alone!” – I mean that guardian lost many of its potential when he fight alone – but if not – if You have at least one companion to fight – guardian potential grows.

warrior got Destroyer of the empowered (sucks donkey balls). IDC what you say thats not boon hate. people have it much kittening worse.

the more offensively built Guardians do have a place in tPvP, though again it really boils downt o team comp and chemistry and dare i say it, tactics even.

apart from the standard 10/30/30/0/0 builds, you can go for a slightly varied version 0/3030/5/5. it’s more or less the same, but does add a lot of survivability with the added utility of virtues as well as vigor procs. see Silven’s guide here on the forums.

i actualyl ran 30/10/30/0/0 for tPvP once. was in a group with an engi, necro, and mesmer, also a warrior i think. we all solo queued. they sent me, the Guard naturally to hold keep. i said i’m not a bunker though. then they asked, then.. what are you? i told them my spec. they didn’t say anything. but it didn’t matter because we played so well together and i was able to down people a lot faster than normally, while not getting downed so easily myself. we played so well together that we teamed up, except for the warrior. and played, 3, 4 more games afterwards and doign extremely well. tons of communication. called for incs and help, etc. sure this is anecdotal, but i didn’t feel i was hindering my group. sure you can the other teams were probs bad, but doesn’t mean the spec doesn’t work. with ANY build, ANY profession, you’ll always run into bad days. and vice versa, just means the more good days you’ll have when you can set your mind to things, or not be focused on how bad Guardians are. cause it hink, tbh, entering any game mode with that in mind, you’ll naturally perform more poorly.

I haven’t played a guardian in awhile, but in sPVP they are always a tough fight whenever I face one. This is mostly because I use things like turrets and minions and phantasms, which dole out damage for me since I lack in the skill department. Heck, last time I played a guardian I used spirit weapons. Anyway, hard part about guardians has always been that their AoEs slaughter my turrets and minions, and once they are all on cooldown the guardian is much bulkier and does more damage than every other class I have. It doesn’t help that I like to use condition builds, and most guardians are lolwutconditions. I’m not sure about a lack of condition pressure, though. Not many guardians capitalize on it, but there is something to be said about having an opponent who is permanently on fire.

I definitely have to disagree about disengaging. I once spent half an hour chasing a guardian who was running in short circles because me and the 2 other guys chasing him could never catch him. He kept using warding skills to stop us, the greatsword leap to jump distances we couldn’t, so much stability that we couldn’t control him, so much condition removal we could never chill him, and also permanent swiftness.

Though I do see the OP’s point, though. A-nets balancing method of whack-a-mole has been continually hitting the places where the guardian is the strongest. Boon hate existed before in limited quantities, but now it is in full swing. It is so much that Engineers, another other class that received almost no boon removal, is getting this in their elixirs.

There was a time when condition cleansing meant quite a bit more than it does now. But lately it seems like every class I fight has oodles and oodles of condition removal. I main Engineer and Necromancer the most, and even with their condition pressure I find my opponents just shrugging off everything I apply to them. But hey, at least I can pwn warriors real hard with it.

Retaliation was originally boss in WvW, and even in sPVP when a guardian could keep it up for a long duration. But then they nerfed the duration, and then they nerved the damage in WvW, and guardians are left without anything to do here, either.

With all of their defensive skills, Guardians used to be able to bunker extremely well. But thanks to boon removal, their survivability was cut substantially. Now, engineers and elementalists are the new bunkers, since they have just as many defensive abilities. Engineers get 50% more HP to start with, too.

So now I do ask myself what a Guardian’s role is supposed to be. They don’t have super high burst damage, retaliation does very little nowadays, they aren’t superb at bunkering anymore, and most builds handle their own conditions quite well. Guardians have decent controls skills, decent healing, decent AoE damage, but aren’t king in any of those. The only thing I can really think of is support specs that use things like shouts and wall of reflection to provide support and defense for other players. It seems that in all of our clamoring over the revealed debuff and bunker elementalists, the Guardian has slowly fallen into the back line.

I’m not sure how to fix it, though. As much as I like the fact that Necromancers are getting burning, I don’t like that necromancers are getting burning. A big complaint, and a somewhat valid complaint, is that classes and combat in the game are homogenized: everyone can do everything that everyone else can do. Want to apply conditions really well? Then your class of choice is anything but Guardian and Warrior. Want to clean conditions like they’re nothing? Well, that is every class but warrior. Want to be incredibly evasive and really frustrating to fight? Well, that’s any class that isn’t a necromancer. Want to have a bunch of summonable minions that fight alongside of you? Well, that’s any class but Warriors. Want to remove a bunch of boons? Your choices are theives, mesmers, necromancers, and soon engineers. Want a ton of control effects? Well, that is pretty much anyone who isn’t a ranger.

The worst part is the classes are getting more homogenized. The solution to this whole “Class A can do so and so but Class B can’t” seems to be to give Class B what Class A has. So to fix this problem, what exactly should be done with guardians? Should they make it so they remove a boon every 5 seconds with burn, so that Guardians can remove boons like all the other classes that remove a boon? Should they make it so sword attacks cause bleeding, so the guardian can be like every other condition spec? Should they make it so guardians get haste and can do insane burst damage, as it is with every class not a necromancr? Though it is true that if every class had everything we would be balanced. It is also true that it would be boring.

I agree with mostly everything but — how can you not kill rangers? They’re atrociously unbalanced and under-pare. Sorry, off topic, but that just stood out to me. :P

Razor.9872:

I agree with mostly everything but — how can you not kill rangers? They’re atrociously unbalanced and under-pare. Sorry, off topic, but that just stood out to me. :P

What?
BM-Condi rangers are freaking OP 1v1.

KrisHQ.4719:

Razor.9872:

I agree with mostly everything but — how can you not kill rangers? They’re atrociously unbalanced and under-pare. Sorry, off topic, but that just stood out to me. :P

What?
BM-Condi rangers are freaking OP 1v1.

BM rangers are getting a huge nerf coming this patch. like, for some pet attacks, 50% damage nerf. They’ll get a few buffs in the condition field, but nothing our condition removal can’t fix.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

You can run out of fight as a guardian as long as You have staff on swap.
While retreating (running in oposite direction than enemy) place Line of warding before you (You must a little train this – point is that on end of cast line appeared on you – so while You are running You must place it little before You)
and after crossing it drop Symbol of Swiftness under Your legs (to catch swift),
also wall of reflection may be good thing.
all of this will work while You are retreating (in group or before group) – while You are not primary target for enemies, that method will let You escape (I escaped by that with 50 lvl guardian from situations where my 80 lvl ranger bunker wouldn’t make it.)
also shelter on healing would be good option because of block.

btw. as for me guardian is gw2 version of gw1 paragon – so We (guardians) are best in defensive/supporting playstyle. but can be played in another way – as guys told about dps guardians.
(PS. on some intsances Paragon in GW1 was a must in party and was nearly keeping party alive (with little help of two monks :P)

@Coltz ombo You where talking about would work only if:
1. enemies were already in range of ring of warding
2. if not point 1 You should take gs pull enemies toward You swap to hammer create ring of warding swap to gw and use Whirling wrath – sorry swap weapon cd is too long for that

As i said if you read, you can PULL INTO ring of WARDING~ with your GS for some reason that was a big tip ~

Elaboration:
Do ring of warding on the floor and swap to GS and PULL enemies THROUGH the ring of warding walls. While you are on GS use number 2 to spin ~..

If people still don;t get it i better leave it at that =_=

Also for your getaway plan experienced players would walk right through your line of warding with stability. and they are quick about it supplying it to the zerg ~

@Coltz when I was posting that I forgot that ring of warding doesn’t stop pull or luanhc

about rangers condi bunkers…
well built guardian don’t have to care about mortal things such as… conditions.
really if there is a profession could not cares about conditions that would be guardians…