Guild Wars 2

Hi everyone
Well I’ve a lvl 80 Guardian for quite a while, and I enjoy the class, but recently I don’t feel good playing it, I think is it because of my build, since I’ve allways used the same since I reached lvl 80. It’s similar to an AH build but with focus on Symbols (one friend helped my with getting the build, and at the time I loved it), I go with 0 – 0 – 30 – 20 – 20.
Because of that I decided to swith build, but sinc I only started to came to the forum, does today a weak, I’ve seen that I problably don’t know much about my class at all, I only figured out today what AH means.

Anyway, I’ve seen here some topics talking about AH builds with Zerg or Knight gear, but I wondered why? Is that only for PvE, or WvW too? How it goes for WvW if, with AH build with all Zerg or Knight gear you only have 300 healing power, which I think is low for a Guardian.

That all I wanted to know
Sorry some english mistakes, I’m very tired from worked to think properly :$

Knights Gear is a really strong alternative to Soldiers in WvW, because you have nice defense and compared to full Soldiers you can actually kill someone^^ I don’t recommend full Zerker for WvW but adding some zerker parts to your gear to optimize your stats is fine.

Personally I don’t like Healing Power. It’s just to much of a sacrifice of other stats to get it. To be honest If you want to be supportive Healing Power is fine, but I prefer a more offensive spec with good 1v1 capability. Knight’s with some vitality and partially Zerk Gear works fine for me.

I use ascended zerker jewelry with PVT armor and a zerker GS/pvt staff with the standard AH build, well rounded stats and pretty effective in wvw.

Tried zerker gear before but you go down to quick if you try to melee, it is however also an option if you do not run with the melee train and go with scepter/focus and staff and act as a ranged profession. Just make sure to walk out of red stuff. Downside is that people tend to move and scepter has a hard time hitting anything so it hurts your dps.

2 pieces Cleric’s is fine (ammy and 1 ring). 4 or 5 soldiers with Ruby Orbs and a peppering of Valk’s is optimal. I use this kind of build and it’s great. Grab a food buff, roll heal for 800-900, survive and punish.

1v1 it’s terrible though. I really don’t like Guardian for roaming if you’re just out looking for a fight to grab footage for a pvp video.

Tynyss.8237:

Knights Gear is a really strong alternative to Soldiers in WvW, because you have nice defense and compared to full Soldiers you can actually kill someone^^ I don’t recommend full Zerker for WvW but adding some zerker parts to your gear to optimize your stats is fine.

Personally I don’t like Healing Power. It’s just to much of a sacrifice of other stats to get it. To be honest If you want to be supportive Healing Power is fine, but I prefer a more offensive spec with good 1v1 capability. Knight’s with some vitality and partially Zerk Gear works fine for me.

I use Soldeir armor and Cleric jewelry and Cleric Weapons
My Healing power is near 1000. Well with this I might try Knight armor with some Valkyries to add some Vit and Crit damage since I allready have 30% of that

Sandra Martino.3870:

I use ascended zerker jewelry with PVT armor and a zerker GS/pvt staff with the standard AH build, well rounded stats and pretty effective in wvw.

Tried zerker gear before but you go down to quick if you try to melee, it is however also an option if you do not run with the melee train and go with scepter/focus and staff and act as a ranged profession. Just make sure to walk out of red stuff. Downside is that people tend to move and scepter has a hard time hitting anything so it hurts your dps.

Scepter is too slow for me, I don’t use it and if I ever will, it will be on gates problably

So maybe I didn’t undertand what is an AH build. In a AH build you use Shout’s, with this variation is better to use Meditation skills, and trait them to heal me when I use them?

mPascoal.4258:

Hi everyone
Well I’ve a lvl 80 Guardian for quite a while, and I enjoy the class, but recently I don’t feel good playing it, I think is it because of my build, since I’ve allways used the same since I reached lvl 80. It’s similar to an AH build but with focus on Symbols (one friend helped my with getting the build, and at the time I loved it), I go with 0 – 0 – 30 – 20 – 20.
Because of that I decided to swith build, but sinc I only started to came to the forum, does today a weak, I’ve seen that I problably don’t know much about my class at all, I only figured out today what AH means.

Anyway, I’ve seen here some topics talking about AH builds with Zerg or Knight gear, but I wondered why? Is that only for PvE, or WvW too? How it goes for WvW if, with AH build with all Zerg or Knight gear you only have 300 healing power, which I think is low for a Guardian.

That all I wanted to know
Sorry some english mistakes, I’m very tired from worked to think properly :$

AH build with zerk gear in wvw is not really too good since you’ll be too squishy. You’ll have some mitigation with the knights gear with toughness but without raw hp you’ll still die pretty fast.

DeathPanel.8362:

AH build with zerk gear in wvw is not really too good since you’ll be too squishy. You’ll have some mitigation with the knights gear with toughness but without raw hp you’ll still die pretty fast.

Erm … no. AH, knight armor, soldier runes and zerker weapon/trinkets work pretty fine in ZvZ, unless you lose your orientation in the enemy zerg. But in that case, you will probably die anyway, no matter what kind of gear you use.

mPascoal.4258:

Anyway, I’ve seen here some topics talking about AH builds with Zerg or Knight gear, but I wondered why? Is that only for PvE, or WvW too? How it goes for WvW if, with AH build with all Zerg or Knight gear you only have 300 healing power, which I think is low for a Guardian.

You can think of builds belonging to 3 roles:
Offense, Defense, Balanced.

As you play against other players you’ll earn experience and you’ll notice two things:

1. Offense is great against other Offense types. Whoever hits first, or combo better, wins.
2. Defense is great against multiple opponents, and can beat Offense with ease. Against other Defense types, it’s always a long, outlasting, or draw battles.

So, what’s a good way to face both Offense and Defense types? A Balanced one.
Now it’s about of how achieving this Balance. You need both offense and defense.

You can Gear offensively, and Trait defensively, or you can Gear defensively, and Trait offensively.
The most popular (in sPvP) is Gear offensively (Berserker/Knights) and Trait defensively (Valor/Honor) because they synergize well with the profession’s mechanics.

You leave all your defense to Vigorous Precision + Selfless Daring (more dodges, and heal every dodge), AH (heal constantly), high Toughness (and take less damage when you get hit), focusing anything else you can for offense.

I run with soldier armor and boon duration increase runes. 0/0/30/20/20. Knights amulets, earrings, and acce. With Sentinel jewels. Hp is around 20k. I run AH. With food and 25 sigil of perception stacks, 40% crit chance. crit damage is at 30%. pretty low. But when your staff is hitting 5 targets in front for more than 1k each and giving you might, 10+ stacks of might is very easy to achieve. and boy, you heal for each and every one of those hits. you hit like a truck, very difficult to pull down as long as you crit, and save your selves is runs for 16 seconds, retreat 32 seconds, stand your ground about 8 seconds, you will rarely die.

downside is you need people around you to buff so you don’t die. But I run zerg most of the time, my hp doesn’t go below 80% during clashes

mP,

AH can be done well with everything from Soldiers to Zerker, just depends on your play style. Also, Hammer is great with AH, the Protection boon it drops give a ton of survivability. There is a sticky on this forum with AH Hammer, give it a read.

I’d suggest doing something like this to start and move to more offensive gear as you get comfortable. Hammer is slow so you’ll be in the thick of things but once protection goes down you’re good. The rune setup on the armor coupled with Writ of Presistance trait will give you full time protection if you can keep hitting stuff and hanging out in the symbol (great in PvE). Try to stay with the zerg, more people around you the better AH works. Staff 4+AH gives a massive heal to you and Staff is just plain useful in WvW. Don’t forget your consumables!

This trait layout can be adjusted quite a bit for whatever you’re running. I started with a similar setup and moved to full Zerker gear with a 10/30/0/30/0 build that does good damage and I’m quite happy with.

GL out there,

Blood~

P.S.
Zerk = Beserker’s stat’s on gear, Power/Precision/Crit.
Zerg = large group of people swarming over stuff.

CptAurellian.9537:

DeathPanel.8362:

AH build with zerk gear in wvw is not really too good since you’ll be too squishy. You’ll have some mitigation with the knights gear with toughness but without raw hp you’ll still die pretty fast.

Erm … no. AH, knight armor, soldier runes and zerker weapon/trinkets work pretty fine in ZvZ, unless you lose your orientation in the enemy zerg. But in that case, you will probably die anyway, no matter what kind of gear you use.

Mixing like that is a terrible idea. If you go zerk go full out or not at all. Going partially zerk just nerfs your def/hp while not really providing you with any real benefits that zerk gear provides.
When you add in a little zerk you aren’t going to get any real measurable increase in dps since it just means a little extra crit severity and a tiny bit more prec. Meanwhile your toughness and hp suffers.

Mixing isn’t a terrible idea at all. Any given Guardian build fits on the spectrum with defense and offense at the extremes. Ideally, you choose gear to put you where ever you feel most comfortable on that spectrum. Luckily, doing that works well in this game because of the mechanics:

1. The increases you get for many stats with the exception of toughness translate linearly to your capability.
2. The tradeoffs feel well balanced. If I give up ‘a chunk’ of heals, HP and toughness for an equivalent ‘chunk’ of power, crit and crit damage, or vice versa, it feels like a fair trade.

@mPascoal, i read your initial post as asking, in part, what an AH build even is and why Knights/Zerk armor is used often for them. Since that hasn’t been directly addressed, one of the benefits of the Altruistic Healing trait is not that it heals a lot in big chunks, but that it can heal frequently… whenever you apply a boon. Healing power can help for this, but not tremendously. What tends to help (especially given certain boon-on-critical-hit skills we have) is having more precision so that you can have critical hits more often. Knights and Zerk armor both give you a good precision score, and let you hit decently hard. Soldiers and Clerics armor do not contribute directly to precision, and thus you would have to make up for that precision elsewhere. Going for roughly 40-50% crit rate will net you a fairly constant string of small heals even with no gear investment into healing power, as long as you keep attacking and shouting.

Obtena.7952:

Mixing isn’t a terrible idea at all. Any given Guardian build fits on the spectrum with defense and offense at the extremes. Ideally, you choose gear to put you where ever you feel most comfortable on that spectrum. Luckily, doing that works well in this game because of the mechanics:

1. The increases you get for many stats with the exception of toughness translate linearly to your capability.
2. The tradeoffs feel well balanced. If I give up ‘a chunk’ of heals, HP and toughness for an equivalent ‘chunk’ of power, crit and crit damage, or vice versa, it feels like a fair trade.

1. No it doesn’t. Top guardian builds revolve around focusing on 2 to 3 different stats, not all of them.
2. Well balanced doesn’t mean good. The best builds in gw2 are focused builds.

It’d help everyone if you actually back up your posts with some facts like gear builds or trait setups rather than spewing unsubstantiated misinformation. Of all the times I’ve visited this forum and read your posts I haven’t seen a single post with any concrete facts in them.

I don’t know if it’s a learn to play issue or you are simply trolling, but you definitely aren’t being constructive.

You’re welcome to prove me wrong by actually posting your equipment and trait build on this thread as a response to the OP regarding AH builds or zerk gear since that is what the actual topic is.

I’ve asked you to do this before and you’ve never delivered.

DeathPanel.8362:

You’re welcome to prove me wrong by actually posting your equipment and trait build on this thread as a response to the OP regarding AH builds or zerk gear since that is what the actual topic is.

I’m not here to prove you wrong since I don’t regard your opinion as facts. I’m offering an an opinion to the OP with the reasoning why. I don’t see anything wrong with mixing. If people didn’t mix, they wouldn’t have builds that appeal to them and fit their comfort level. The OP should mix and experiment to find a build he’s comfortable with. He’s not going to play a build he’s not comfortable with with any level of success.

The best advice in this thread so far is this …

Bloodgruve.6038:

mP,

AH can be done well with everything from Soldiers to Zerker, just depends on your play style.

Bloodgruve.6038:

mP,

AH can be done well with everything from Soldiers to Zerker, just depends on your play style. Also, Hammer is great with AH, the Protection boon it drops give a ton of survivability. There is a sticky on this forum with AH Hammer, give it a read.

I’d suggest doing something like this to start and move to more offensive gear as you get comfortable. Hammer is slow so you’ll be in the thick of things but once protection goes down you’re good. The rune setup on the armor coupled with Writ of Presistance trait will give you full time protection if you can keep hitting stuff and hanging out in the symbol (great in PvE). Try to stay with the zerg, more people around you the better AH works. Staff 4+AH gives a massive heal to you and Staff is just plain useful in WvW. Don’t forget your consumables!

This trait layout can be adjusted quite a bit for whatever you’re running. I started with a similar setup and moved to full Zerker gear with a 10/30/0/30/0 build that does good damage and I’m quite happy with.

GL out there,

Blood~

P.S.
Zerk = Beserker’s stat’s on gear, Power/Precision/Crit.
Zerg = large group of people swarming over stuff.

Really liked how that build looks, I might try it out. Thanks
Well Hammer is one of the best Guardian Weapons IMO but I just love how swords look, but even that I try to use GS as much as possible with my current build, waht really shines is the Hammer and not the GS. I should make a Warrior if I want to use GS with full power and not a Guardian.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your help and your answers

Obtena.7952:

I’m not here to prove you wrong since I don’t regard your opinion as facts.
The best advice in this thread so far is this …

No because you are here to troll.

I’ve backed my opinions with structured reasoning and facts.

The OP is asking for discussion regarding AH and zerk equipment, and all you can offer is useless drivel.

Okay new question
Most of AH build focus more on Hammer. I like the Hammer but I also really like the GS
Any sugestion of how I can build my Guardian with a build similar to AH but built around the GS

Dont really need to change anything imho. Most AH builds are weapon independent.

mPascoal.4258:

Okay new question
Most of AH build focus more on Hammer. I like the Hammer but I also really like the GS
Any sugestion of how I can build my Guardian with a build similar to AH but built around the GS

You can use any weapon that gives you a boon. Hammer is great because the boon is frequent and multiple but GS gives might on #1 so it’s not a bad choice either.

DeathPanel.8362:

I’ve backed my opinions with structured reasoning and facts.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have your opinion on mixing challenged, especially since it’s an obvious option that exist for a good reason with very well understood impact to the builds. Mixing allows people to find builds they are comfortable with and adjust to their situations. If your mix is ‘None’, fine, but don’t think it works for everyone. The ‘best’ build is going to be the one that a person gets the most performance from, not the one that spills the highest numbers at you on a spreadsheet.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

I’ve backed my opinions with structured reasoning and facts.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have your opinion on mixing challenged, especially since it’s an obvious option that exist for a good reason with very well understood impact to the builds. Mixing allows people to find builds they are comfortable with and adjust to their situations. If your mix is ‘None’, fine, but don’t think it works for everyone. The ‘best’ build is going to be the one that a person gets the most performance from, not the one that spills the highest numbers at you on a spreadsheet.

Your main problem is you don’t back up what you “think” by any facts or statistics. Not every opinion is equal. The only thing that makes someone’s opinions worth listening to is how factual it is.

That’s the main difference between my “opinions” and yours. I back up mine with observable facts while you don’t.

Danicco.3568:

mPascoal.4258:

Anyway, I’ve seen here some topics talking about AH builds with Zerg or Knight gear, but I wondered why? Is that only for PvE, or WvW too? How it goes for WvW if, with AH build with all Zerg or Knight gear you only have 300 healing power, which I think is low for a Guardian.

You can think of builds belonging to 3 roles:
Offense, Defense, Balanced.

As you play against other players you’ll earn experience and you’ll notice two things:

1. Offense is great against other Offense types. Whoever hits first, or combo better, wins.
2. Defense is great against multiple opponents, and can beat Offense with ease. Against other Defense types, it’s always a long, outlasting, or draw battles.

So, what’s a good way to face both Offense and Defense types? A Balanced one.
Now it’s about of how achieving this Balance. You need both offense and defense.

You can Gear offensively, and Trait defensively, or you can Gear defensively, and Trait offensively.
The most popular (in sPvP) is Gear offensively (Berserker/Knights) and Trait defensively (Valor/Honor) because they synergize well with the profession’s mechanics.

You leave all your defense to Vigorous Precision + Selfless Daring (more dodges, and heal every dodge), AH (heal constantly), high Toughness (and take less damage when you get hit), focusing anything else you can for offense.

I like this comment.

mPascoal.4258:

Okay new question
Most of AH build focus more on Hammer. I like the Hammer but I also really like the GS
Any sugestion of how I can build my Guardian with a build similar to AH but built around the GS

Empowering Might with GSword and AH works well too. With GSword I’d run Superior Aria, 2h Mastery and EM in the Honor traits. You can switch out EM for Pure of Voice when conditions are a problem for your team.

On the subject of stat mixing you’re basically gonna min/max and push your play style to its limits or you’re going to mix stats and play something that’s comfortable. At the end of the day you want to stay on your feet so whatever it takes to do that is where you should be, just try to be mindful of your DPS. It’s hard running with a group that does mediocre DPS but its just as hard running with people that fall down all the time. I try to push myself to Min/Max but I’m still running two soldiers pieces in an otherwise full zerk setup. I personally have a hard time staying up consistently if I’m under 14K hp so I know that’s currently my personal threshold. The only stat that I don’t like is healing, Guards especially can stay up without it (PvE).

Blood~

Bloodgruve.6038:

mP,

AH can be done well with everything from Soldiers to Zerker, just depends on your play style. Also, Hammer is great with AH, the Protection boon it drops give a ton of survivability. There is a sticky on this forum with AH Hammer, give it a read.

I’d suggest doing something like this to start and move to more offensive gear as you get comfortable.

I can see where you’re coming from with this build but I think it could do with some tweaking. I wouldn’t even consider any zerk items/gems with crit damage in them for ZvZ. You already have the 30% crit damage from traits so if you want to to add a bit of dps to a PVT setup I’d just swap some vitality for precision. You are right to take toughness on everything, you literally can’t have too much toughness in ZvZ (as per the memo cliché, “dead players do no DPS”)

As for the skills/traits, wall of reflection is nice to have but purging flames is a waste. I think you need to make a decision between a shout based build (get the most out of AH) or a consecration build (sanctuary and wall of reflection for group utility). ALL guardian ZvZ builds should contain Stand your ground.

While the point some people have made about precision granting you healing through Vigourous Precision isn’t wrong, I wouldn’t get too excited about it. We’re talking about at best a few hundred health per 3 swings of the hammer or the per staff cleave. It’s a nice extra bit of steady healing but is no substitute for Vitality when you’re suddenly under immense pressure.

Regarding healing power, don’t underestimate it. It increases your heal on roll 1 for 1 so adding a few pieces of clerics gear and a sigil of life to your staff will do your survivability (and supportive capabilities) some good. Having said that, don’t overdo it. A few pieces is enough.

I personally like my guardian to play a full support build with consecrations and full defensive gear. I do just enough damage to tag the zerg with my staff but I the utility I provide my group is invaluable. If you wish to play a more offensive ‘Shock Trooper’ type role, I would recommend a AH shout build with a PVT/Knights mix. Take a GS or hammer for offense and a staff with life sigil for defense. I think warriors are better for this though (perma fury and larger health pool)

OP: I thats helpful or at least gives you some things to think about.

PS. Deathpanel must be trolling. If not he/she is a real arrogant kitten and should be ignored anyway

yLoon.5289:

Danicco.3568:

mPascoal.4258:

Anyway, I’ve seen here some topics talking about AH builds with Zerg or Knight gear, but I wondered why? Is that only for PvE, or WvW too? How it goes for WvW if, with AH build with all Zerg or Knight gear you only have 300 healing power, which I think is low for a Guardian.

You can think of builds belonging to 3 roles:
Offense, Defense, Balanced.

As you play against other players you’ll earn experience and you’ll notice two things:

1. Offense is great against other Offense types. Whoever hits first, or combo better, wins.
2. Defense is great against multiple opponents, and can beat Offense with ease. Against other Defense types, it’s always a long, outlasting, or draw battles.

So, what’s a good way to face both Offense and Defense types? A Balanced one.
Now it’s about of how achieving this Balance. You need both offense and defense.

You can Gear offensively, and Trait defensively, or you can Gear defensively, and Trait offensively.
The most popular (in sPvP) is Gear offensively (Berserker/Knights) and Trait defensively (Valor/Honor) because they synergize well with the profession’s mechanics.

You leave all your defense to Vigorous Precision + Selfless Daring (more dodges, and heal every dodge), AH (heal constantly), high Toughness (and take less damage when you get hit), focusing anything else you can for offense.

I like this comment.

+1

Just adding in: personally i use
-PTV armor + Knight trinkets in WvW. I play a support/balanced build on guard, so dmg is not important. but you still have quite a bunch of power.
-full knight or kinght armor + zek trinket (or the opposite) in pve. higher dmg, cause in pve you can avoid much more dmg compared to wvw.

All of this on a usual 0/0/30/30/10 – 0/0/20/30/20 – 0/0/30/20/20 build, depending on situation/mood/party.

Yea, I go Soldiers for WvW/ZvZ and Zerker in PvE and small skirmishes. That build is just a general starting point for PvE and WvW. Always adjust your skills to meet your current environment.

I don’t do a lot of ZvZ on my Guard so I don’t know the benefits of healing gear there but I know its not needed in PvE. Also, when I did do ZvZ on my guard it was in Soldiers and it did quite well.

GL out there,
Blood~

DeathPanel.8362:

Your main problem is you don’t back up what you “think” by any facts or statistics.

Sure, direct me to the nearest quantitative tool that measures the ‘absolute terribleness’ of mixing and show me how you came to that conclusion … Take as long as you need.

There really isn’t any statistics needed to back up the statement that mixing isn’t absolutely terrible because that’s not an fact you can qualify with numbers or statistics. Mixing is about getting the most from a build for a certain person behind the keyboard. You can’t attach a number to that.

Just so we are on the same page, can you please indicate to me where the ‘facts and statistics’ are in this post you made? I just want to make sure I haven’t forgotten what those things are:?

DeathPanel.8362:

Mixing like that is a terrible idea. If you go zerk go full out or not at all. Going partially zerk just nerfs your def/hp while not really providing you with any real benefits that zerk gear provides.
When you add in a little zerk you aren’t going to get any real measurable increase in dps since it just means a little extra crit severity and a tiny bit more prec. Meanwhile your toughness and hp suffers.

Last time I checked ‘nerfs’, ‘real measurable increase’, ‘little extra’ and ‘tiny bit’ weren’t quantitative or unambiguous descriptors for someone who claims to be so factual and statistics-oriented.

I did go ahead though with a bit of calculations to ‘match’ your facts in the above quoted post:

I made a very basic Zerker build to keep it simple (a Greatsword, full zerk armor and trinkets): Effective power 2303, Damage reduction 13.6%
I swapped to a Knights chest (I gave up 29 power and 5% crit damage for 101 toughness): Effective power: 2235, Damage reduction 17.5%

So with that single swap, I had an effective power drop of less than 1% but I increased my damage reduction 4%. Stats and Facts are fun so just for some giggles, I went back and put 30 into Valour just because we ARE talking about AH builds and did the same swap.

Full zerker: 2475 effective power, 24.35% damage mitigation
Swap to knights chest: 2406 effective power, 27.37% damage mitigation

WOW, look at that. Again, I got a less than 1% effective power drop (as expected because it’s a linear function) and got 3% damage mitigation. Lower but still respectable swap.

According to you, this is terrible. I wonder how many experienced Guardians would think that’s terrible as well.

Obtena.7952:

Sure, direct me to the nearest tool that measures the ‘absolute terribleness’ of mixing … Take as long as you need.

You are the one that made the claim to mix gears without actually providing specifics on what pieces to mix, so the burden of proof is on you.

There are plenty of gw2 build tools on the internet, choose one.

Just so we are on the same page, can you please indicate to me where the ‘facts and statistics’ are in this post you made? I just want to make sure I haven’t forgotten what those things are:

I’ve posted full build links on many of my past posts. In those that I haven’t I’ve given figures and specific trait names as well as gear stats and explained why those are useful as opposed to others.

This is totally contrary to your posts, which states totally unsubstantiated things without any builds traits to backup your claims.

The bottom line is, I provide specifics and reasoning while you provide unsubstantiated and therefore useless information.

I don’t know if you are simply doing this to troll or not, which is why I am giving you a chance to actually prove your not trolling by actually staying on topic and providing specifics to why your idea is worth considering.

DeathPanel.8362:

The bottom line is, I provide specifics and reasoning while you provide unsubstantiated and therefore useless information.

Strange, I don’t see anything of that in this thread. Just a great amount of arrogance coupled with unsubstantiated claims.

DeathPanel.8362:

Obtena.7952:

Sure, direct me to the nearest tool that measures the ‘absolute terribleness’ of mixing … Take as long as you need.

You are the one that made the claim to mix gears without actually providing specifics on what pieces to mix, so the burden of proof is on you.

You’re right. I went and did that and edited my post (I apologize for that). Swapping a knights chest into a full zerker AH build gives me 3% damage mitigation increase while losing less than 1% effective power. I’m sure you have some superb ‘facts’ to convert that quantitative result into your subjective (and not factual) ‘terrible’ description of mixing.

The facts will set you free …

Went back again, made a full exotic zerker build (GS, armor and trinkets) and started swapping those three things to knights> I got this:

Full zerker; Toughness 916, Effective power 2586, Damage Reduction 13.6%
Knights trinkets: Toughness 1327, Effective power 2218, Damage Reduction 27.7%
Knights trinkets and armor: Toughness 1506, Effective power 2095, Damage Reduction 32.4%
Full Knights: Toughness 1824, Effective power 1884, Damage Reduction 39.4%

Draw your own conclusions. My favourite part is when I made a ‘terrible mistake’ going to knights trinkets, increasing my damage mitigation 100% but losing a little over 10% of my effective power. Clearly an overall loss. :p

It’s a bit off-topic but I’ll put it here anyway just not to start another topic abour the build
So I want to be more of a “tank” now and not so much about support so I though of this:
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|1.1n.h2|2.1n.h2|1n.7x.1n.7x.1n.7x.1n.7x.1n.7x.1n.7x|1c.64.1c.64.1c.64.1c.64.1c.64.3u.e16|0.0.u65b.u29b.a2|0.0|v.16.13.19.1i|e

Sigil’s Idk which would be better for a “tank” so I just puted Sigil of the Force since they fit almost anytime.
Do you think in a ZvZ this will fit? At PvE I’m almost sure that it will, but in PvE most of the builds do so, that’s not the problem. I give up a lot of support for more sustain.
In the trait’s I’m still not sure If I should have 30 in Valor, or just have 20 in Valor and 20 in Virtues and have Absolute Resolution (but if I put this one I’ll have to change either the Runes or the last trait of Honor otherwise I’ll have a lot of focus in condition removal, which in WvW in ZvZ doesn’t matter so much) or Indomitable Courage.

Sugestions?

Obtena.7952:

The facts will set you free …

Went back again, made a full exotic zerker build (GS, armor and trinkets) and started swapping those three things to knights> I got this:

Full zerker; Toughness 916, Effective power 2586, Damage Reduction 13.6%
Knights trinkets: Toughness 1327, Effective power 2218, Damage Reduction 27.7%
Knights trinkets and armor: Toughness 1506, Effective power 2095, Damage Reduction 32.4%
Full Knights: Toughness 1824, Effective power 1884, Damage Reduction 39.4%

Draw your own conclusions. My favourite part is when I made a ‘terrible mistake’ going to knights trinkets, increasing my damage mitigation 100% but losing a little over 10% of my effective power. Clearly an overall loss. :p

I applaud you for actually using numbers in your argument for once.

The problem here is you conveniently failed to provide the loss of the crit damage severity of approximately 30% in addition to the loss of power of about 368 which are the stats you lost by adding knights if we take your numbers as fact.

Therefore it is far more than a matter of just losing only 10% of your effective power like you say.

Your post is what’s known as a special pleading fallacy.

If we assume your numbers are right then you’ve gained 14% more mitigation in exchange for losing 368 effective power, and 30% crit severity.

Now that all the values are on the table including the ones you conveniently left out, you can decide for yourself if that’s worth it or not.

Quick build i put together

similar to what i run when i know i’ll be in group play / zerg play. works out roaming as well. can switch weapons easily as well. my stats i feel are quite balanced. i don’t go too defensive, nor do i go fully offensive. i also use perception stacks, and with that crit chance should be about 54% which is not bad. i threw in sigils of strength to proc might, as well as empowering might, though i usually don’t play with those as i feel even with an AH build, not having strength sigils or empowering might doesn’t hinder the healing at all.

you have nice crit chance, decent crit damamge, balanced power and armor, health is in a good spot, healing could be more but the constant streams of AH healing is more than enough to keep me up. is it SUPER tanky? i efel more than fine surviving most encounters and i still am able to hit well and apply pressure – which in my opinion, in WvW, is the best dmg mitigation, to put your oppoents in defensiev mode.

mP – the new build you linked is extremely tanking, from a stats perspective. if you stick with AH, you should be decent, but remember, more HP means mroe health to fill up when you lost it. if you WERE to switch to a 0/0/20/30/20 build, i’ve seen people do it and they ejoy ti and virtues is a great line, just not as blatantly “defensive” or “offensive” as our other lines may be.. i would then invest in some more Healing Power into your build for some sustainibality though – i woudl try to get t up to at least 700-ish. but that’s just my take.

i want to say you’ll have enough conditional removal.. but at the same time, you can never have enough condition removal in ZvZ! the conditions that you just cleansed will be stacked back onto you twice as fast, twice the amount in no time, depending on which zergs you’re fighting, but usually, it’s not uncommon to see stacks of conditions on you at any given time in a clash.

and don’t forget, once you settle on a build, you can always switch weapons, major traits between battles. a lot of people tend to not do this and i think it’s a good practice to have. even if it’s so much as me equipping a staff while running across the map for a symbol of swiftnes, then i switch back to my regular weapon set right away. so you can more than easily swtch up the Honor major trait to Empowering Might or Two-handed mastery or what not, if not using Pure of Voice. then if you suspect a fight up ahead with a lot of conditions, then you can slot it back in.

good luck! : ))

Tynyss.8237:

Personally I don’t like Healing Power. It’s just to much of a sacrifice of other stats to get it. To be honest If you want to be supportive Healing Power is fine, but I prefer a more offensive spec with good 1v1 capability. Knight’s with some vitality and partially Zerk Gear works fine for me.

I run full Clerics armor in WvW on my Guardian with Knight’s Trinkets, and my 1vs1 ability is just fine. Infact, I’ve often taken on 2-3 guys at once and won. Even beat 4 alone before. The only time I ever lost was to a Necromancer who had a nasty habit of stealing or removing my boons, and it was still a very long drawn out fight, that if he had screwed up once or twice could have gone my way.

I don’t really see the point of Soldier’s Gear on a Guardian that’s specced healing traits and has a build revolving around that, TBH. More health is nice, but it’s a one-time deal. After that, it’s just more health to heal up – but you won’t be able to get it back because your Healing Skills are still only running at base value.

With the amount of healing abilities a Guardian can possess, Healing Power and Toughness seem to make far more sense than Toughness and Vitality in certain builds, as both Healing Power and Toughness improve the effectiveness of the Health and Armor you already have, and go hand-in-hand and are synergistically more effective than Toughness and Vitality. They’ll both benefit you for as long as the fight lasts, whereas Vitality is only good for the first 30seconds of it or so. You could argue that with less health conditions might be a problem, but extra healing power combined with many healing abilities will help you tackle that, and besides, Guardians shouldn’t have any shortage of condition removal.

The fact that healing power also improves your support abilities for when you are with a group is just a bonus.

Once again, I’d say it’s build specific though, if you aren’t bringing many abilities with Heals or Regen (such as Mace 1+2, Shield 5, Staff 4, HtL, SY, etc, etc), aren’t traiting Healing Traits like AH (though it’s true the Healing Power bonus for this on it’s own is minimal), Monk’s Focus and Absolute Resolution, then you might be better off going for Vitality instead – but I would think the builds that would be better off with Vitality are the ones that focus on the first two, pure offensive, trait lines of the Guardian, more then the more defensive final three trait lines.

Obtena.7952:

snip

I applaud your patience… I gave up on replying trolls long ago. It’s still funny to see delusional posts from them (in a weird, sorta sadistic way).

mPascoal.4258:

Do you think in a ZvZ this will fit? At PvE I’m almost sure that it will, but in PvE most of the builds do so, that’s not the problem. I give up a lot of support for more sustain.

Hum this is just my opinion but I think your Power is really really low… but I’m a Power-maniac Guardian, so I might be biased.

I think that in ZvZ battles, the most important is to cause the most impact you can get on it by:
- Locking multiple opponents for your team’s AoE (Various Wardings, Sanctuary and other AoE controls)
- Healing as much as you can, making your team last longer than the enemies’
- Causing the most damage you can, forcing enemies into defense and dropping their attack

So, a build that just… “tanks” people is useless in my opinion. It’s just another player in the middle of AoE showing numbers and granting bags and experience to the enemies.

In really large fights (20+), no matter how tanky your Guardian is, if you’re focused, you won’t last enough and won’t make any difference at all. At best what a tanky Guardian can do is distract a zerg for Shelter + Renewed Focus + Dodges duration, then go down. You’d be just buying your team 7~ seconds or so at the cost of 1 player.

mPascoal.4258:

In the trait’s I’m still not sure If I should have 30 in Valor, or just have 20 in Valor and 20 in Virtues and have Absolute Resolution (but if I put this one I’ll have to change either the Runes or the last trait of Honor otherwise I’ll have a lot of focus in condition removal, which in WvW in ZvZ doesn’t matter so much) or Indomitable Courage.

If you’re planning on ZvZ alot, stick with Altruistic Healing, it outheals Absolute Resolution by far on a group.
Also, you’d lose Might of the Protector which is awesome in ZvZ.

mPascoal.4258:

Sugestions?

I’d prefer more damaging builds while still keeping your tankiness high, such as this (you can change the weapon to Knights), so I suggest you give it a try and see if the damage gain is worth the defense lost.
For me it usually is in all situations I run into, and there’s even times I wish I had even more damage, to burst the middle of those zergs so badly that I’d make 5+ enemies worry and pull back (essentially preventing those 5 from going full damage on my team).

Also, I don’t really have an issue with conditions and I think Pure of Voice + Soldier Runes to be overkill.
There’s very few conditions that can be really annoying and stack up to absurd amount of time (usually from SBow thieves and Grenadier Engies), but it’s usually one or two that lasts that long, and a single Smite Condition would work great for AoE damage and cleanse, or if you want group cleansing, Purging Flames is great as well.

It’s an alternative if you want to free two slots in Honor since there’s a bunch of great Major traits there (Larger Symbols, Healing Symbols, Empowering Might, Resolute Healer, Battle Presence).

Thanks for your ideas, I’m interested in the build you posted Danicco, I might try it out
During this evening, while helping my dad with work I was thinking “What about might, it incrises my damage and I can play support with it with the staff and Save Yourselves”, so when I got back I though of a build around it and came with this:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|1.1c.h1h|6.1k.h6|1c.77.1c.77.1c.71g.1c.71g.1c.71h.1c.71h|31l.0.1k.68.1k.68.2u.e13.3u.e16.2u.e13|0.0.u45b.u29b.a0|5n.1|v.18.19.13.1i|e

What do you think? I think it can work. The way I was thinking of using it is, I usually run around with the staff and before fighting I try to use Empowering Might, since I have might duration and boon duration, plus I get more 3 stacks for 20 seconds on switch I get 18 stacks of might before the fight, 19 if I pop up Save Yourselves and with the hit I might get that even further. The good about it I most of that might will not be only given to me but also for everyone around me.
With that build I also get a good defence and a decente healing power.
What do you think about it? I feel that maybe be this that I was looking for

If you want to increase your damage the best way to do so lies in three traits. Zeal 10 with Fiery Wrath. Radiance 25 with Radiant Power. Honor 25 with Elusive Power. These each add 10% to your direct damage, not sure on conditions. Empowering Might adds another 7.5%, at least that’s what I’ve seen posted on some forums. Superior Sigil of Force and Accuracy also increase you effective power. This is where the 10/30/0/30/0 build comes from. I like the 10/0/30/30/0 that Danicco posted, seems like a good mix. Also, don’t forget consumables!

Empowering Might is good in a group setting but its a rooted channel that sucks to cast. I would use it more for a heal with AH than just a might buff.

GL
Blood~

Elusive Power does not really add 10%, it will probably be more like 3-4 % or so. With permanent vigor, you get endurance so quickly and dodging on cooldown is a net DPS loss if you don’t need to dodge for survival. Furthermore, 7.5 % for EM is crap. If you count 3 stacks of might, which sounds realistic to me, it will rather be 2-3 %, depending on the presence of other might sources.

€: Wait, it seems that you are confounding Empower (the staff skill) and Empowering Might (the trait).

CptAurellian.9537:

Elusive Power does not really add 10%, it will probably be more like 3-4 % or so. With permanent vigor, you get endurance so quickly and dodging on cooldown is a net DPS loss if you don’t need to dodge for survival. Furthermore, 7.5 % for EM is crap. If you count 3 stacks of might, which sounds realistic to me, it will rather be 2-3 %, depending on the presence of other might sources.

€: Wait, it seems that you are confounding Empower (the staff skill) and Empowering Might (the trait).

It was, sorry about the confusion, but I don’t use the staff all that much and though that was the name
Still isn’t it good? I like Danicco build but only 300 healing power doesn’t seem enough for what I’ve reading here

DeathPanel.8362:

The problem here is you conveniently failed to provide the loss of the crit damage severity of approximately 30% in addition to the loss of power of about 368 which are the stats you lost by adding knights if we take your numbers as fact.

No, that’s not possible because I simply swap the pieces. The values are automatically fed to the formulas in the builder as soon as you change it. I have not conveniently ‘forgetten to include’ anything, but thanks for the accusation.

Effective power is a function of power, crit damage and crit chance. (You can test this yourself by swapping a zerker to a soldier peice and seeing your effective power go down if you don’t want to take my word for it). Therefore these differences you speak of that you think I have ‘forgotten about’ are actually automatically included in my data by the single effective power metric calculated by the page, without my intervention. So, contrary to your accusation, I can’t manipulate those values or final value of the calculation. If you think it’s wrong because it hurts your pride, take it up with the developer.

So yes, if you assume the calculations on that builder are correct, I have increased my damage mitigation 100% for a loss of 10% in effective power simply swapping exotic zerker to exotic knights trinkets. My data and analysis are quite solid thank you very much.

mPascoal.4258:

It was, sorry about the confusion, but I don’t use the staff all that much and though that was the name
Still isn’t it good? I like Danicco build but only 300 healing power doesn’t seem enough for what I’ve reading here

Healing power scales like crap with AH. 0.01 is quite useless, so you can safely avoid that stat. The traits you put together are quite OK, but I won’t comment a lot on the rest. Soldier stuff is like a red rag to me. Only condi damage is still worse.

The viability Elusive Power varies depending on what you’re doing. In cases where dodging is required its a welcome trait, and usually if you’re dodging a lot you want to take out whatever your going after quickly. In other areas yes you’re trading unnecessary dodges for dmg increase, in this case its best to dodge before 5>4>3>2 GS sequence or other big hitters. Dodging alone for the 10% is actually a dmg loss, I think… Maybe it should be viewed more as a mitigation to damage loss than an actual reliable damage increase.

I thought 7.5% was a bit high for EM too but that’s the only value I’ve seen posted.

Blood~

Danicco.3568:

Obtena.7952:

snip

I applaud your patience… I gave up on replying trolls long ago. It’s still funny to see delusional posts from them (in a weird, sorta sadistic way).

I don’t actually mind because in a way, he was right. If I would have crushed his ‘facts’ with the numbers in the first place, this silliness might have stopped a while ago. The funny part is that now he’s got the numbers and facts, he’s accusing me of ‘forgetting’ things in the calculation, even though the calculation is done automatically by the builder. /sigh

Bloodgruve.6038:

The viability Elusive Power varies depending on what you’re doing. In cases where dodging is required its a welcome trait, and usually if you’re dodging a lot you want to take out whatever your going after quickly. In other areas yes you’re trading unnecessary dodges for dmg increase, in this case its best to dodge before 5>4>3>2 GS sequence or other big hitters. Dodging alone for the 10% is actually a dmg loss, I think… Maybe it should be viewed more as a mitigation to damage loss than an actual reliable damage increase.

I thought 7.5% was a bit high for EM too but that’s the only value I’ve seen posted.

Blood~

EM is usually worth about 3 stacks of might based on your crit chance and attack rate. With any decent level of power, one stack of might is worth between 1.5 to 2% extra damage. In general it is safe to estimate that Empowering Might is going to be worth about 5% extra damage for the entire party.

Obtena.7952:

Danicco.3568:

Obtena.7952:

snip

I applaud your patience… I gave up on replying trolls long ago. It’s still funny to see delusional posts from them (in a weird, sorta sadistic way).

I don’t actually mind because in a way, he was right. If I would have crushed his ‘facts’ with the numbers in the first place, this silliness might have stopped a while ago. The funny part is that now he’s got the numbers and facts, he’s accusing me of ‘forgetting’ things in the calculation, even though the calculation is done automatically by the builder. /sigh

The builder’s calculations notwithstanding, you actually aren’t getting that much extra damage mitigation out of adding knights compared to your loss in DPS. You may be doubling your current damage mitigation but that’s all relative to how much you are currently mitigating. With an attack power multiplier that is going to be worth 5-6x base damage, losing 10% of that is actually going to cost you a damage value of about half of your base power. By comparison, your damage mitigation value is so low to begin with that in practice you aren’t actually mitigating that much more, even if you double it marginally.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t actually mind because in a way, he was right. If I would have crushed his ‘facts’ with the numbers in the first place, this silliness might have stopped a while ago. The funny part is that now he’s got the numbers and facts, he’s accusing me of ‘forgetting’ things in the calculation, even though the calculation is done automatically by the builder. /sigh

Well it’s not the first time I see you (pointless, in my opinion) discussing with him, but let me show you how I see it:

OP: Hey guys, how do I do X and Y?
Community Guardians: You can opt for A, B or C.
Troll: Use A.
You: Why A? B and C are viable options as well.
Troll: Only stupids use B and C. I’ve show undeniable facts that A is the way to go.
You: Presents sensible arguments on B & C
Troll: You’re just avoiding my question. You show nothing and therefore your argument is invalid. A is the way to go.

repeat ad infinitum in every topic the troll posts

So, I wonder why is it that you even bother setting up arguments, making builds, checking math just because some random guy said “it’s wrong because I said so”.

For that patience, you have my respect.
For feeding the troll and brightening my day, I salute you.

(I know I have some sadistic issues but I won’t delve into that)

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The builder’s calculations notwithstanding, you actually aren’t getting that much extra damage mitigation out of adding knights compared to your loss in DPS.

That’s a fair opinion but I think you missed the whole point of the argument with Deathpanel. The dispute is about if mixing traits was ‘terrible’, not if trading 10 of your damage for an absolute increase of 14% damage mitigation is a ‘fair trade’. Even if you don’t think so, it’s unreasonable that someone would describe mixing traits as ‘terrible’, especially if that person is so fixated on everyone else but themselves using facts, numbers and statistics to back up their statements.

The whole underlying point I am making here is that as person’s success with any build is so dependent on their playstyle that blanket statements like ‘mixing is terrible, just use full zerker damage build’ is just stupid. <— why do people not understand this?

mPascoal.4258:

Still isn’t it good? I like Danicco build but only 300 healing power doesn’t seem enough for what I’ve reading here

That’s a different type of build and play style.

Healing Power scales absurdly well with Selfless Daring (1 to 1 ratio), which means if you have 1000 Healing Power, you’ll be healed for 1000+ every time you dodge.
With Vigor always up from Vigorous Precision, that means a 1000+ Heal every 3 seconds or so (Altruistic Healing can’t match that, and is group-dependant).

You just the enough to sustain yourself through your battles.
Altruistic Healing, like mentioned before, scales poorly with Healing Power, meaning it doesn’t matter much if you have 100 or 1000.

In my opinion, this is a good thing because I don’t have to invest in Healing at all, just Power/Health, since the Healing it brings is enough for me to keep going.
I choose to use Soldier because of the awesome defense it brings (both Toughness and Vitality) while still having high Power (and I just spend a bit on Crit % to deal a good sustained damage).

With this setup, I don’t die in 1v1s at all unless I’m bursted/combo’ed so badly that it’s my fault as player for letting that happen, or I’m AFK, or I’m alt-tabbed, etc

Against Cleric players which I’ve fought quite a few times, I don’t kill them either, I do think my attacks take quite a chunk of health when I connect (or they just play with low health), but they fill that so quick so it just ends with both of us going somewhere else.

Against others that doesn’t have a high defense or healing to keep up, I can keep up the pressure well and it’s just a matter of how long they can fight me (they usually flee when they notice I’m steadily getting the advantage).

In the end, it depends on you, as any Guardian in here probably tested it themselves and reached their own balance and are comfortable with it.
So I suggest you trying it out, mix things up (traits and gear) until you find your “best” survivability/damage ratio and keep tweaking from there.

This doesn’t means you should invalidate someone else’s builds and opinions, but in the end they’re just ideas you need to test yourself to see if they’re really worth it.

Danicco.3568:

So, I wonder why is it that you even bother setting up arguments, making builds, checking math just because some random guy said “it’s wrong because I said so”.

Well, it’s because someone asked for legitimate help. Even if the discussion dives into an argument with someone, the OP hopefully gets value from it by seeing how the respective parties come to their opinions (even if some people state their opinions as bible truth).