Guild Wars 2

When this game started it was marketed as breaking the MMO standards, allowing players to customize each class to play any style… no more DPS, tank, healing triad.

For the most part, it’s been this way. No class excels above the others as a tank, and multiple classes are routinely complained about for their high DPS. Sure, each class has its quirks and specialties, but players really could experiment with different playstyles with the same class.

Except the Guardian.

Guardians can’t do conditions. Look at each of the conditions in the wiki, and you’ll see 20+ skills that trigger each… with not a single guardian icon on the page for most of them. No bleeding, no confusion, no poison… the only damaging condition we have is burning, which stacks by duration and not intensity. Poison is by duration too, but no class is locked into is as its sole source condition damage. Guardians have immobilization, blind, and vulnerability… but so does every other class. Six classes have easy access to chilled (a 50% on crit with a 45 sec cooldown on the slowest Guardian weapon, if traited, doesn’t count as easy), all other seven can cripple, four can do fear.

Guardians can’t to ranged damage. Guardians have a total of 9 non-elite skills that do damage in the 900+ range. Of those, two have cooldown penalties associated with them (torch 4 and staff 2), and two are utilities (Bane Signet and Judge’s Intervention) that have long cooldowns that eliminate them as routine damage dealers, even with the 20% cooldown reduction traits. Scepter 1 could be dodged by a slug with a breeze at its back. Some argue that this is a trade off for heavy armor… but Warriors (also supposedly “frontline” soldiers according to the Wiki) have 4 attacks at 1200 range with the rifle and 5 at 900 range with the longbow. A Warrior could spec solely as a long-range damage dealer…while wearing heavy armor. It’s funny in WvW watching Guardians standing off twiddling their thumbs as the rest of a zerg assaults a keep.

Seriously, what other class is completely locked out of whole playstyles like the Guardian is?

This leaves Guardians with blocking, boons, and healing. Blocking and boons were nerfed in the recent update, leaving healing. Maybe I’ll get a name change contract and change my Guardian’s name to Mhenlo if its available.

If they nerf guardian 2 or 3 more times this class will be absolutly useless with his low hp no range weapon nerf on blocking/boons/healing he dont have nothing

Uh, there’s no trinity in PvP. You can’t hold aggro from real people, that would be silly. You don’t talk about trinities in that sense in PvP.

In PvE, on the other hand, you can trinity extremely well. In fact, the guardian is the best ranged DPS classes in the game, and tied for third-best melee DPS, on top of being naturally tanky and healy.

If you’re talking WvW, on the other hand, guardians are monsters with their reflects and projectile blocks. You can pretty much hold a keep against a zerg indefinitely with just two guardians.

Guanglai -
How is guardian the best ranged DPS in PvE? As for melee, being tied for third puts it in the middle of a pack of eight, not exactly a stellar accomplishment.

As for WvW, you’ve reduced Guardian’s effectiveness to that of a stone wall. Moreover, you’re blatantly exaggerating about the two guardians and a zerg.

My point wasn’t that the Guardian can’t do anything…instead, that our has nothing like the variety of viable options like every other class.

I recall being messed up quite a few times by Guardians in both SPvP and WvW. Maybe you just don’t know how to build them? One time there was a signet warrior and his guardian comrade and that guardian was able to keep 3 of us off his squishy friend and pin us in with all his CCs, jumps, and walls. I’ve seen DPS Guardians who still retain quite a bit of tankiness as well.

Guardians and Warriors are soldier classes; they aren’t supposed to do massive amounts of ranged DPS. I don’t know how you don’t understand the difference between the two either. Warriors get decent ranged weapon damage but that doesn’t compare to their melee damage at all. Rifle is mediocre single target damage, and longbow is medium-low ranged AoE. A warrior spec’d completely for ranged damage would essentially be a ranger with half the damage and half the survivability. Guardians are designed to revolve around being defensive over offensive, so it shouldn’t be surprising that warriors out-damage them in any range. While warriors offense is obviously greater, their defense is significantly weaker. If you didn’t want that then you should have rolled a warrior. It was a very obvious decision between warrior and guardian: offense or defense.

DirtyRich.4903:

Guanglai -
How is guardian the best ranged DPS in PvE? As for melee, being tied for third puts it in the middle of a pack of eight, not exactly a stellar accomplishment.

As for WvW, you’ve reduced Guardian’s effectiveness to that of a stone wall. Moreover, you’re blatantly exaggerating about the two guardians and a zerg.

My point wasn’t that the Guardian can’t do anything…instead, that our has nothing like the variety of viable options like every other class.

Smite damage is through the roof. Even melee classes can’t compare, when it comes to big targets. Even on small targets, it still easily outclasses pretty much any other ranged weapon in the game except engineer grenades.

Also, being tied for third for DPS is actually really good because it’s super stable while being inherently supportive. The #1 DPS class, rangers, are reliant on the awkward sword auto-attacks and keeping their pets alive, while #2, thieves, need to be able to constantly backstab and don’t offer any other group support while DPSing.

Being #3 in melee damage with no drawbacks and #1 in ranged damage while also being the heavy armor tank class with defensive buffs breaks the trinity in a whole different way than what you’re imagining.

Guanglai,

You forgot to say smite does the best damage on golem training dummies. Why? Because they do not move.

And you forgot to mention that the more enemies hit by smite, the less damage it does. So yeah….

Responding “One time, at band camp, there was this Guardian and he completely pwned me!” does not address the points I made.
Every class has a viable source of “decent” ranged damage except guardians. The only real long range weapon that a guardian has is useless in pvp and wvw.

Every class can do “decent” condition damage in pvp and wvw, except guardians because their sole damaging condition is easily wiped. They even lack many of the non-damaging conditions.

I just want the same opportunity to explore multiple play styles as other classes do.

I currently run healing power (mix of Cleric’s and Magi’s) with hammer. For whatever reason, I can hold aggression far better than any other player I’ve run across. I’m constantly healing and applying protection. If I don’t have 100% upkeep with protection and vigor, I’m not attacking. For group healing, we’re pretty average. There are better choices, but we can manage. For damage, we’re capable of some high numbers as well. While burning is generally awful in the department of condition damage builds, we apply it often which can boost our raw damage (up to +20% with traits, more with runes).

So, yes, our condition damage fails. We do, however, have a lot more built around surviving without needing to invest heavily into X build. We can use blinds, knockdowns, immobilizies, teleports, leaps, blocks, and aegis to sway combat into our advantage. Any build can use one or more to avoid as much damage as possible. If you think we need better condition damage to be like every class, then look at other classes. Not every class can bunker as well, nor can every class heal as well either. Guardians need a weakness somewhere.

And Scepter is getting a boost apparently. A developer recently commented that its projectile speed was not buffed before when other projectiles were (he used Necromancer staff as a comparison). There’s no ETA on the fix.

Condition damage only fails if you don’t recognize it’s not meant to be the primary damage source and it’s FREE … no restrictions, no requirements to have specific weapons, etc… . That is a different concept than conditions on say, theif, where it is. Therefore, I think the Cond Damage on Guardian is more than appropriate. Anything better like access to an additional condition damage like poison or bleed, combined with a very straightfoward CD build would be ridiculously overpowered in my build IMO.

While there is an issue with Scepter missing hits, when it does, it’s in fact extremely high in damage potential. I don’t know about #1 but I can see where even a few hits from smite along with an appropriate crit build would be awesome.

Bottom line is that Guardian can do both Con Damage and ranged. It’s just not as ‘simple’ to do it well on Guardian as you can on other professions because of how the concepts are implemented.

Aza.2105:

Guanglai,

You forgot to say smite does the best damage on golem training dummies. Why? Because they do not move.

And you forgot to mention that the more enemies hit by smite, the less damage it does. So yeah….

In that case, let me rephrase that to “Smite deals the best ranged damage on training dummies, everything in PvE, every stationary object in WvW, and 99% of players in PvP..”

Better?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Aza.2105:

Guanglai,

You forgot to say smite does the best damage on golem training dummies. Why? Because they do not move.

And you forgot to mention that the more enemies hit by smite, the less damage it does. So yeah….

In that case, let me rephrase that to “Smite deals the best ranged damage on training dummies, everything in PvE, every stationary object in WvW, and 99% of players in PvP..”

Better?

No one stands in smite the full duration unless they aren’t very smart players. And in pve many mobs do not stand still or they come in a group. So your analysis of smite being the best skill ever isn’t very realistic.

there is the use of chains of light. plus other forms of cc’s. you can always coordinate with your buddies to constantly immo or keep an enemy in place as wel. if you don’t have friends to play with? then place the smite where an enemy is heading instead of placing the target where they currently are, knowing they are going to move out of that area so you get more hits in, then immo at the right time. there are many ways to use it effectively. you can knockdowns, then immob. that’s a good extra window for smite to do extra dmg that otherwise would have missed.

try judge’s intevention into someone’s face, immo then dropping smite. in PvP or WvW. you’d be surprised how long they stand still for. surprise factor will get most, save the very best.

i guess my point is, scepter may not be the perfect weapon, but it definitely deserves way more credit then people give on these forums. even scepter autos hit super hard. depending on target, they can go up to 2k on crits. and yes, moving targets. super i won’t eb sniping anyone at 1200 range. but at 600? and if yuo’re good against kiters, you’ll nail ‘em hard. and most people i’ve played against, when they’re being smacked in the face by magic tennis balls for 1-2k each hit, all they’re going to be doing is running.

and ultimately i am fine with the Guard not be excelled at ranged combat. i chose the Guardian to be in your face. there’s a reason we’re a heavy class.

[edit: oops fixed some typos]

The auto attack on the scepter actually does a lot of damage and one of the highest on single stationary targets. Where the weapon starts to lose it is against pulls of multiple targets since the damage of smite is spread and the auto attack only hits the one target. However I’m happy with this as it encourages guardians to get into melee combat which in my opinion excel at.

The Guardian is designed around close combat, sustained damage and control. The Burning condition which comes pretty much for free with the Guardian is a particular example of sustained damage. I don’t know any other class that can apply Blinds (which are a great damage mitigation tool) on a regular basis. And Scepter is actually very good for ranged PvE, and it will also be better in PvP once dev’s will buff the projectile speed as already promised by John few days ago. And I am not even starting about the Staff, which is simply an amazing weapon.

Yes, Guardian has its limitations. But so does every other class (save for Ele ^^).

green plum.7514:

The Guardian is designed around close combat, sustained damage and control. The Burning condition which comes pretty much for free with the Guardian is a particular example of sustained damage. I don’t know any other class that can apply Blinds (which are a great damage mitigation tool) on a regular basis. And Scepter is actually very good for ranged PvE, and it will also be better in PvP once dev’s will buff the projectile speed as already promised by John few days ago. And I am not even starting about the Staff, which is simply an amazing weapon.

Yes, Guardian has its limitations. But so does every other class (save for Ele ^^).

Thief can apply blind on command with dagger/pistol, limited only by initiative regen.

I think there is a difference between the game being based on the triad or not, and the flexibility of the guardian…

The game is clearly not triad based, because there is no direct healing class and there is no real tank focus. Instead it’s mostly a balance between how you accomplish dps, defense, and utilities. I don’t think every class needs access to every method. I don’t see Guardian’s getting a legit range only build.

To Rich’s point, the Guardian doesn’t offer much flexibility in how you accomplish DPS… it’s essentially melee only without conditions. Our range weapons excel at utility more than DPS. So, the Guardian is mostly about adjusting weapon sets, traits, and runes to come up with different builds of melee DPS and Utilities.

I’ve played Right-Handed Strength builds focusing on sword/focus and Meditations, and I feel like that is a significantly different play style than my AH/Shout build. Some folks are into AH, consecrations, and battle presence and boons, not sure it plays much differently than normal AH… maybe just a twist on it.

For a another unique playstyle, we could probably use a legit melee DPS build based on the Power and Radiance lines and that is a hybrid condition/power and take advantage of conditions and symbols. Some of the traits exist now, it just isn’t as efficient as our other builds. In my opinion, symbols could travel with the Guardian as we move… like Strength in Numbers from Valor. Maybe Symbol of Wrath applies Retal to us and pulses Vulnerability or Burning to them (in order to be less impacted by condition removal). Then use your +5% dmg to enemies with conditions applied or +10% crit chance to enemies affected by a symbol, etc.

DirtyRich.4903:

Responding “One time, at band camp, there was this Guardian and he completely pwned me!” does not address the points I made.
Every class has a viable source of “decent” ranged damage except guardians. The only real long range weapon that a guardian has is useless in pvp and wvw.

Every class can do “decent” condition damage in pvp and wvw, except guardians because their sole damaging condition is easily wiped. They even lack many of the non-damaging conditions.

I just want the same opportunity to explore multiple play styles as other classes do.

Band camp stories are usually irrelevant to what the conversation was about; personal experience that has everything to do with the subject at hand are completely different. Why post on a forum if you’re going to ignore what everyone else says anyways?

You also make it sound like you want every class to have access to everything. Why would there even be classes then? Guardians don’t have access to HIGH ranged DPS. You are probably the only one to be surprised by that fact. Then you go and call the staff useless for all PvP? You couldn’t be more wrong. If you want ranged damage with good survivability then go play a ranger or mesmer. You’re playing a primary tank/support class and complaining you don’t have ranged DPS or condition damage options.

You do have somewhat flexible builds. Their effectiveness may vary, but you aren’t pigeonholed into one build. You can use whatever you like to suit whatever playstyle you want to use.

Aza.2105:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Aza.2105:

Guanglai,

You forgot to say smite does the best damage on golem training dummies. Why? Because they do not move.

And you forgot to mention that the more enemies hit by smite, the less damage it does. So yeah….

In that case, let me rephrase that to “Smite deals the best ranged damage on training dummies, everything in PvE, every stationary object in WvW, and 99% of players in PvP..”

Better?

No one stands in smite the full duration unless they aren’t very smart players. And in pve many mobs do not stand still or they come in a group. So your analysis of smite being the best skill ever isn’t very realistic.

Um, they don’t have to. Even if you get 1 or 2 tick off on someone it every 5 seconds, it’s very good. Root them for the full duration with #3.