Guild Wars 2

So you nerfed guardian’s tanking abilty. Not sure if you noticed it.

Vigor was 1 sec and lasted 1 sec with no real CD. Not it lasts 5 sec with a 5 sec CD.
With altruistic healing, we could heal ourselves for 77 HP everytime it was applied. Since most altruist healing builds also used empowering might, we could be able to sustain a healing stream.

On a 5 sec window, before nerf, we could keep a 770 healing every 5 sec assuming you always crit. (77*2*5)

Now we are capped at 462. (77*5+77)
On a long fight, this is a huge loss to our self healing capacity, specially if you remember we are tanks (or control if you will, since we can’t really taunt)

ehm i dont understand your calculation.

Before the change, assuming that i calculate only AH + VP proc, the heals amount was for every crit you land, because it was dependand to the numbers of enemy, so with a single AOE skill you can heal 70*number of crit landed on the same time. (and maybe this is OP)

Now it proc only once every 5 seconds, so its only 70\80 HP every 5 seconds. (and this is a disaster -.-)

As i suggested a simple solution:

when the trait proc, it give us 5 or 4 ticks of vigor(1 sec per tick) with a 5sec CD. ok its something like 280\350 Hp every 5 seconds, but its a lot better than 70 HP every 5 seconds and its not OP then before kitten

This is another one of these to much/to little changes Anet seem to like to do to Guardians.

Like SoW changed from 10 seconds to 20 seconds then changed to add 10% extra damage to make up for it, AOE healing/buffing from unlimted to 5 then being given an extra 2 seconds of might on empower to make up for it (which we never actully got and now is removed), and now AH from 1to5 vigar heal/s every second (if you crit every second) to 1to5 vigar heal/s every 5 seconds.

I’d be ok with it if it was perhaps 2 seconds of vigar on a 2 second cooldown (even 2.5 seconds), but alas i’m getting used to how we get these changes (and why i seem to be playing my Guardian less and less).

With the nerfs to our “tankability”, and ANet saying they don’t want us very mobile, I have no clue what they want us to be. I’d rather have seen VP get the 1s cooldown rather than this sack o’ crap. Seriously Anet, this is turning into the travesty that was GW1 skill balancing…

Arena net is really bad to balance. They put thiefs running more than evebody, nerf our tankability and buff elementalist dagger dagger aura lol.

I dont know what to think, they want us stronger with boons, but our boons are not so special if compared with other classes. Warrior have less boon option then us, but that boons are offensively stronger and they can use them with an higher uptime then us.(Elite signet you know)
The strongest build we had (AH Heal) is now a demi viable option.
i dont know why they love massive nerf to this class. IS really too much ask some nerf on the mid way? and then look if its enough?(not powerful then before, but not nerfed underground)
They dont listen to us, they broke the things that work (ok maybe thjings that work too much) but they definitely dont fix the things that dont work.

+20% damage on unschated contenteder? dont make me laugh, this trait must be deleted from the game, or tied to a boon that can last some seconds. Tied with aegis, is simply useless.

AH now is a fail build, they want every guardian using meditation. Lets go =D

You know 5 sec Vigor mean u can roll more often with roll on heal + evade more damage. So it is a nerf of AH, but also a buff on other trait at the same time

Dico.4815:

AH now is a fail build, they want every guardian use meditation. Lets go =D

lol next month Patchnote:

- Doubled Cd for all meditations skills.

Joke apart, we are goind on the direction of the single guardian build. OUR options are less and less.

Freezenox.8534:

You know 5 sec Vigor mean u can roll more often with roll on heal + evade more damage. So it is a nerf of AH, but also a buff on other trait at the same time

Vigor every seconds, and 5 seconds of vigor every 5 seconds, its the same things in temrs of dodging, so its not a buff for dodge heals. Its only an AH nerf.

It’s a buff to healing. You aren’t regaining Vigor while rolling. More endurance = more rolls = more heals.

So the new combat style is roll to death?
I was under permavigor even before this patch, so i really dont where is this Dodge buff! But i clearly see the HUGE nerf to the AH build. 70\80 hp every 5 seconds, from VP is just kitten.
im asking for a compromise, with the old VP on multitarget you can just tank without rolling(1000+ heals per sec), but with a vigor tick effect that can assure you 5 tick of vigor with 5 seconds CD to refresh the effect, the healing effect is surely nerfed, but a lot less then NOW.

Pretty much what Ganzo said, the switch was an AH nerf, the people that were effected most by this already had 100% vigor uptime, so calling it a buff is a load of bull.

I Still think adding a .5 second CD to it would have fixed It alone. The issue was multi hit attacks and AoE attacks, WW for example would be limited to 6 hits total (think it lasts 3 seconds, could be wrong) and Zealots would be about the same, auto attacks on single target wouldn’t be effected but multi target and the sword #3 auto attack would be lowered for healing output some. And keep in mind it only procs of crits so some of those hits wouldn’t even heal.

To nerf it down to the point that the only way to make AH worthwhile is to spend 20 points in a completely different trait line (aka for empowered might) Is a complete and utter WASTE of a trait.

Bakitten291:

I Still think adding a .5 second CD to it would have fixed It alone. The issue was multi hit attacks and AoE attacks, WW for example would be limited to 6 hits total (think it lasts 3 seconds, could be wrong) and Zealots would be about the same, auto attacks on single target wouldn’t be effected but multi target and the sword #3 auto attack would be lowered for healing output some. And keep in mind it only procs of crits so some of those hits wouldn’t even heal.

To nerf it down to the point that the only way to make AH worthwhile is to spend 20 points in a completely different trait line (aka for empowered might) Is a complete and utter WASTE of a trait.

Exact, the 0.5 sec CD solution, for some reason is better then mine for Sword\Gs AH builds. ANd its perfect to avoid AOE AH massive heal.

edit : O_O OMG the censor have censored your name in Bakitten LOL

Ganzo.5079:

So the new combat style is roll to death?
I was under permavigor even before this patch, so i really dont where is this Dodge buff! But i clearly see the HUGE nerf to the AH build. 70\80 hp every 5 seconds, from VP is just kitten.
im asking for a compromise, with the old VP on multitarget you can just tank without rolling(1000+ heals per sec), but with a vigor tick effect that can assure you 5 tick of vigor with 5 seconds CD to refresh the effect, the healing effect is surely nerfed, but a lot less then NOW.

So is Vigor your only source of Boons or something? I use Shouts, and Virtues, and Strength Runes and Sigils. And Empowering Might.

I haven’t noticed a change in my survivability at all. In game hasn’t changed much for me. It feels like this is being blown out of proportion because of how it looks on paper.

Yeah the filter does that on my name, Started recently, not sure why. And assuming Ganzo is running close the same build as I was, pretty much yes. Its a high crit build somewhere along the lines of 0/30/30/5/5 or even 10/25/30/5/0 the point was that you got your crit high enough that you could sustain yourself with the vigor on crit. Other than virtues which were like mini heals from AH, it was your primary source of healing. with those builds

Also, It is kinda BS to make AH only work with Empowering might builds, as I have said multiple times, Spending 20 Trait points to make a 30 point trait work is insane.

It’s a buff to low speed weapons like the hammer and mace, as you only have to make one crit every 5 seconds.

Really when it comes down to it selfless daring is a lot more helpful to the party than altruistic healing and can do very well (at the cost of DPS) to keep the guardian afloat with permavigor.

Actually, it appears as if you would have more vigor and thus more endurance, but that’s not really the case. If you were applying the build correctly, you most likely had a good stack of vigor on you, constantly.

This is a pure nerf, through and through. I Did they mean to do it..? its a massive oversight if they didn’t, however, they did make the same change to the mesmer version of the ability, so…slim..chance its an oversight..? I doubt it.

The Ah/vigor build was popular, it was known, and it was allowing traditional tanking in a game where they don’t want it like that.

Personally, I felt it was balanced, since it countered our lack of mobility and lack of Dps in comparison to our warrior counterparts. So if they were going to fix this and rethink Guardian, they should have at least offered more ways for us to spec.

Solution:

Get rid of some of our useless traits, combine others (ex. Symbols), and give us options to spec into that give more ways for us to manipulate the boons that you say are supposed to be the core mechanic of the guardian class.

Kami.7369:

Ganzo.5079:

So the new combat style is roll to death?
I was under permavigor even before this patch, so i really dont where is this Dodge buff! But i clearly see the HUGE nerf to the AH build. 70\80 hp every 5 seconds, from VP is just kitten.
im asking for a compromise, with the old VP on multitarget you can just tank without rolling(1000+ heals per sec), but with a vigor tick effect that can assure you 5 tick of vigor with 5 seconds CD to refresh the effect, the healing effect is surely nerfed, but a lot less then NOW.

So is Vigor your only source of Boons or something? I use Shouts, and Virtues, and Strength Runes and Sigils. And Empowering Might.

I haven’t noticed a change in my survivability at all. In game hasn’t changed much for me. It feels like this is being blown out of proportion because of how it looks on paper.

I use shout\virtues\str sigils too.

But beside Str sigils that is 70 hp per sec, if you crit every sec, and its good, the rest are just long CD, and the healing effect is just a side effect. you can use them to heal something like 150\200 Hp every 25\30 seconds, so they are not reliable source of healing, and just run a shout build For AH sinergy, its a Waste of utility skills. and i dont talk about virtues because the virtues Cd is longer then Shouts CD.

As i said, VP without an internal CD is OP, because of AH AOE HEALS, but to fix this, they can simply add a low CD(0.5 sec or 1 sec like empowering might), only to avoid the AOE trigger EFFECT. This 5 Sec duration with 5 sec CD dont make sense.

To tell you the truth, if the patch notes are any indication, AH was headed for a nerf anyway, since it depends on boons expiring. Obviously boonless guardians are going out, so there’s too much of a risk of overlapping duration stacking boons cancelling out AH anyway.

I don’t even use AH and I still manage to stay alive all day against groups. I don’t see the issue here.

Ganzo.5079:

+20% damage on unschated contenteder? dont make me laugh, this trait must be deleted from the game, or tied to a boon that can last some seconds. Tied with aegis, is simply useless.

Actually this is one of the best Scepter traits you can get for pve especially, I use it most of the time in fractals. It’s fun trying to keep Aegis up for max damage, I love this trait change.

kaffaljidhma.1496:

To tell you the truth, if the patch notes are any indication, AH was headed for a nerf anyway, since it depends on boons expiring. Obviously boonless guardians are going out, so there’s too much of a risk of overlapping duration stacking boons cancelling out AH anyway.

ehm, you dont need that the boon expire to apply the AH effect, you only need to refresh the boon.
I have tried on game right now to be sure

It’s been so long since I’ve used AH that i wasn’t aware.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

I don’t even use AH and I still manage to stay alive all day against groups. I don’t see the issue here.

One step closer to getting that build of yours rofl. jk

Vigor is already overpowered and still remains overpowered I can’t believe you guys don’t see this nerf as necessary. Just think about it.. The trait costs 5 points and it has no internal cooldown. Its a miracle Anet just soft nerfed it, but it still remains overpowered because you still have infinite vigor regardless with any decent amount of crit %.

Nirvash.3018:

Vigor is already overpowered and still remains overpowered I can’t believe you guys don’t see this nerf as necessary. Just think about it.. The trait costs 5 points and it has no internal cooldown. Its a miracle Anet just soft nerfed it, but it still remains overpowered because you still have infinite vigor regardless with any decent amount of crit %.

SOFT NERFED!?! lol go from no internal CD, to 5 sec internal CD, and you call it SOFT NERF? 1sec cd With 1 sec duration. With this, they solved all the problems(AOE Massive HEAL) without invalidate the AH+VP combo.

I honestly don’t know what builds you guys are using to claim this is a devastating blow to AH builds. Vigor is certainly not the only boon that procs on guardians. Even more significantly, it didn’t even proc on your allies so it didn’t stack AH heals like protection from hammer symbol or virtues with Virtue 5. I dare say it but it’s probably the boon nerf that has the least impact on an AH builds.

Obtena.7952:

I honestly don’t know what builds you guys are using to claim this is a devastating blow to AH builds. Vigor is certainly not the only boon that procs on guardians. Even more significantly, it didn’t even proc on your allies so it didn’t stack AH heals like protection from hammer symbol or virtues with Virtue 5. I dare say it but it’s probably the boon nerf that has the least impact on an AH builds.

On a WvW situation, is difficult to stand to the hammer simbols to have the AH effect, but is just the only viable solution now.
With other weapons, like Sword, GS, or Scepter even with might generation sigil, without the Vp proc, the AH build is no more a viable option, its better to use a meditation build.

I think it’s a wash for greatsword since it has a third hit boon already and is a good combo finisher.

Might as well start making a warrior seeing as they get no nerfs, more buffs, strong range attacks, shout heals, sounds legit.

XGhoul.7426:

Might as well start making a warrior seeing as they get no nerfs, more buffs, strong range attacks, shout heals, sounds legit.

I’d suggest that. It seems that Guardian isn’t the class for you.

Obtena.7952:

I honestly don’t know what builds you guys are using to claim this is a devastating blow to AH builds. Vigor is certainly not the only boon that procs on guardians. Even more significantly, it didn’t even proc on your allies so it didn’t stack AH heals like protection from hammer symbol or virtues with Virtue 5. I dare say it but it’s probably the boon nerf that has the least impact on an AH builds.

It stacked AH heals because of how much crit you can maintain with right hand strength. With food buffs and such i can reach 80% crit. Something like zealots defense could easily reach 400+ in healing. Attacks that hit multiple enemies did even more. Also my build had virtue 5 as well. It honestly had a huge impact for any high crit builds because that was the basis for our self healing. Im sorry people cant seem to look outside the AH hammer builds with empowered might, but as i have said, having to spend 20 trait points to make a 30 point trait work is insane.

I’m unsure what you’re trying to say. I only provided examples of things that stacked HA heals … VP isn’t one of them. My whole point is pretty simple .. AH builds still work well enough that nothing should really change in people’s builds. It’s simply over-reactions here.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

I don’t even use AH and I still manage to stay alive all day against groups. I don’t see the issue here.

If we werent on the same team i would be working on a build to kill you just for the fun of it :/ i already know the class that can do it.

Obtena.7952:

I’m unsure what you’re trying to say. My whole point is pretty simple .. AH builds still work well enough that nothing should really change in people’s builds. It’s simply over-reactions here.

You are COMPLETELY missing the point. 0/30/30/5/5 was my build, running high crit. Every crit I landed healed me, providing a constant flow of healing. Now instead I get ONE heal off it per 5 seconds. It is the builds like that, which didnt focus on Empowering might that got hurt badly. If someone can supply me with a working AH build that doesnt run based on hammers or Empowering might, then please do. Until then I have an issue with this.

Also from the patch notes thread:

Guardian
The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

Err, so nerfing one of our primary boons is in line with this…how?

Bakitten291:

Obtena.7952:

I’m unsure what you’re trying to say. My whole point is pretty simple .. AH builds still work well enough that nothing should really change in people’s builds. It’s simply over-reactions here.

You are COMPLETELY missing the point. 0/30/30/5/5 was my build, running high crit. Every crit I landed healed me, providing a constant flow of healing. Now instead I get ONE heal off it per 5 seconds.

I don’t really get where you are coming from. Good AH builds try to get many boons. If your Ah build is only getting one heal from only procing VP, that doesn’t really sound like a build that was taking advantage of AH in the first place, so it’s hard to see what your issue is. You can’t really complain about AH builds getting screwed if your AH build isn’t that good to begin with.

It’s the frequency of boons that matters, not the number of different boons. Although, I guess AH was intended to make you want to apply boons to allies…that’s a different discussion though

That’s why I said all they did was make AH do what it was intended to do. We just got used to a side effect they were too lazy to patch until now. It does suck but I’ll adjust and find a new way as always no point in complaining.

Come on people, vigourous precision is about getting vigour so you can dodge more as it synergises quite well with the other minor traits in Honour, it’s not about keeping your crit build alive so it can facetank anything. I understand you’ve grown comfortable with your free crit heals but really, come on, you know it was stupidly overpowered.

Well… the PvE aspect of these chances aren’t that major. But the WvW aspect puts guardians in a really kittenty place.

Guardians nerf combined with other class buffs = Guardians are kittened. kitten mobility, kitten ranged, kitten snaring. Only thing we had was healing and boons and thats being nerfed.

So what are we good at again?

dizzyd.5213:

It’s the frequency of boons that matters, not the number of different boons. Although, I guess AH was intended to make you want to apply boons to allies…that’s a different discussion though

I believe so as well. There’s nothing “altruistic” about selfish play (I did use AH solo too at times, I just feel it still shines in a group situation if you keep granting those boons to your party.) Many of us think Altruistic Healing is STILL amazing, and it does make us want to “share our boons”-I just never depended on it for self-survival, since I usually had other means for self-recovery as well.

Additionally, many other players, including me on ocassion, stacked Empowered Might might with Inspired Virtues along with that (now gone) Vigor one sec. boon. Along with gear boons, things like Regen from Runes of Dwayna, etc.

Perhaps this hurts more players who didn’t use Healing Power at all and only used those tiny 5 points for a grand total of 50 Healing Power. THat’s OK-their personal choice, that is to be respected. But I believe that we are all responsible for the choices we make for our characters (including myself-I know that I am sacrificing “max DPS” with some of my builds, but it’s a conscious choice, and so should others realize they are missing out on something when totally ignoring Healing Power.)

The “‘we can’t tank now” argument is flawed, because I used to “tank” all the time-and still do-without Altruistic Healing (using"tank" in the most liberal sense of the word, not as per a “trinity” role.) Guardian can be quite sturdy with the different defensive options he/she has been given, and there’s not one way to play, as a “tank” or otherwise (as in “AH-way”.)

It’s also ironic that some feel we have been given “less options” due to this nerf-in facts, more options have been opened, because AH will no longer be that one, “only effective” build to use. It will probably force some players to look for answers elsewhere, which is where the options are.

I mean no offense, especially since I didn’t consider that nerf necessary. It just didn’t hit Guardians as hard as some are making it out to be, IMHO AND IME.

buki.3108:

One step closer to getting that build of yours rofl. jk

I’m giving it out soon. I made a video. It’s my first ever though, so I’m too stubborn to render in anything less than 1080-24p, so…36 hour upload. Still waiting.

Bakitten291:

If we werent on the same team i would be working on a build to kill you just for the fun of it :/ i already know the class that can do it.

It’s unfortunate that it takes a fairly specific build to do it efficiently. ^^

Silver.8023:

Come on people, vigourous precision is about getting vigour so you can dodge more as it synergises quite well with the other minor traits in Honour, it’s not about keeping your crit build alive so it can facetank anything. I understand you’ve grown comfortable with your free crit heals but really, come on, you know it was stupidly overpowered.

I pretty much only WvW, there isn’t much facetanking in WvW.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t really get where you are coming from. Good AH builds try to get many boons. If your Ah build is only getting one heal from only procing VP, that doesn’t really sound like a build that was taking advantage of AH in the first place, so it’s hard to see what your issue is. You can’t really complain about AH builds getting screwed if your AH build isn’t that good to begin with.

dizzyd.5213:

It’s the frequency of boons that matters, not the number of different boons.

This is exactly what i was trying to say. You could apply the vigor on crit boon faster and more often than any other boon, due to it not having an internal Cooldown, Shouts are great because they apply boons to other allies, but they all have 20 second plus cooldowns and only effect 5 allies. As I said before, the only issue where this ever seemed to become “OP” was in multi-hit, multi-target situations, such as using WW or torch #5 where even adding a .5 second cooldown to the trigger would have been enough to tone down some.

And as far as saying that my “AH build isn’t that good to begin with”, Brutaly (The author of the AH Hammer guide that is stickied) Said in another thread its the same build he normally runs with. It was a good mix of self sustaining and damage. Just because some people like to think of better ways to use traits than sticking with the empowered might build does not mean they are not good specs.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

buki.3108:

One step closer to getting that build of yours rofl. jk

I’m giving it out soon. I made a video. It’s my first ever though, so I’m too stubborn to render in anything less than 1080-24p, so…36 hour upload. Still waiting.

Bakitten291:

If we werent on the same team i would be working on a build to kill you just for the fun of it :/ i already know the class that can do it.

It’s unfortunate that it takes a fairly specific build to do it efficiently. ^^

I know, And sadly I don’t think there is a way any guardian can achieve it solo >.<

You guys are making it out to be WAY worse than it is. Sometimes something really is just overpowered – and this Vigor/AH synergy was just that, overpowered.

AH is not useless. It is not crippled. It is still an amazing trait, it’s just slightly less so now that something which, in all likelihood, was never even designed with AH in mind, has been toned down a little.

You still have tons of other skills and traits, both active and passive, that provide a huge variety of boons for AH to play off of.

Yes, the Vigor/AH synergy was terrific. Yes, your self-healing potential has been somewhat diminished. And yes, that was the point of doing it – it was too good.

Mira.4071:

You guys are making it out to be WAY worse than it is. Sometimes something really is just overpowered – and this Vigor/AH synergy was just that, overpowered.

AH is not useless. It is not crippled. It is still an amazing trait, it’s just slightly less so now that something which, in all likelihood, was never even designed with AH in mind, has been toned down a little.

You still have tons of other skills and traits, both active and passive, that provide a huge variety of boons for AH to play off of.

Yes, the Vigor/AH synergy was terrific. Yes, your self-healing potential has been somewhat diminished. And yes, that was the point of doing it – it was too good.

THe AH+VP was OP, maybe yes, But the way its fixed now is just Wrong.