Guild Wars 2

Zeal
This line is all about damage, Symbols and Spirit Weapons
Adept

• Zealot’s Speed: This is a weird trait. Most professions get similar traits that activate at 25% health, but those help them surviving. This trait does nothing for our survival and if it did, it would still be located in a weird place. The name of the trait also suggest that it originally gave Symbol of Swiftness, which would have been more useful.
• Protector’s Impact: I don’t generally like the falling damage traits, but I’ve heard of people picking them up for exploring and jumping puzzles. Situational, but not bad. If I’d take this trait, I’d do it more for the reduced falling damage than for the Symbol.
• Revenge of the Fallen: I can’t really see the use of this trait. It works in very narrow situations (namely you are downed right after you downed the enemy). There’s no real reason to pick it up, unless you plan on being downed a lot.
• Shattered Aegis: It fits the damage theme of the line, and provides synergies with other lines and different playstyles. This seems to be in the line more for the benefit of other lines, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

Master

• Symbolic Exposure: Works well with the Symbol theme of the line, but major traits like these force you into Symbols, even though the rest of the line really doesn’t. If you didn’t look at the minor traits, you could easily think that a build with the Sword and the Scepter would be a good idea with Zeal, but the minor traits really wreck that flexibility, which is weird, because nothing else about the line really cares for Symbols, nor do Spirit Weapons have any synergy with them.
• Greatsword Power: I haven’t done any math on it, but 5% seems rather weak for a trait that only encourages one weapon. On the other hand, the Symbol on the Greatsword would work well with the minor traits.
• Focused Mastery: The Focus is one of our more offensive off-hands, but this is still a weird place for a trait like this, especially considering it doesn’t work with anything else in the line.
• Scepter Damage: And this is completely ridiculous. The Scepter works with exactly one trait in the line (Binding Jeopardy) and you would kitten yourself by taking a weapon with no Symbols if you’re this deep into the line. And again 5% damage seems weak for a single weapon.

Grandmaster

• Symbolic Power: See my comments on Symbolic Exposure.
• Zealous Blade: This would seem like a pretty good trait, because it fill a hole (survivability) in a very offensive line and encourages one of our more damaging weapons. The healing is however really low, not enough to be really worth it. It also encourages only one weapon, which isn’t something I like.

Radiance
This traits is about burning, signets and encourages the use of one-handed weapons.
Adept
*Shimmering Defense: This works pretty well with the burning theme, but at 25% health, I’m not sure if more damage is something I’d really want. The 60 second cooldown seems excessive.

• Inner Fire: Seems to be too situational to be really worth it. The wording is also a bit confusing with Zealot’s Flame on the Torch.

Master

• A Fire Inside: this trait should really be an adapt trait, so that a Spirit Weapon build isn’t forced this deep into Radiance to pick it up.
• Powerful Blades: Again, 5% damage doesn’t seem that much (does anyone have some math on it?) and works with only a specific weapon.

continued
Valor
This line deals has the weird spot of being both about surviving and dealing critical damage. It also works well with Meditations.
Adept

• Valorous Defense: Works very well with the defensive theme, but has nothing to do with the critical damage.
• Defender’s Flame: Works well together with Radiance, which is a line that generally works well with Valor, but as the only really offensive major trait at adept, I would have expected it to be about critical damage.
• Strength of the Fallen: Again, I don’t feel it’s a good idea to pick traits with the assumption you’re going to be downed, especially not if you’re going in a defensive line.
• Strength in Numbers: The static Toughness is pretty good early one, but loses relative power later. It would be nice if it scaled with your level our your own Toughness.
• Retributive Armor: Just wanted to point out that this one of the more elegant traits of the Guardian.

Master

• Courageous Return: This seems a little weak. This again comes down to expecting to be downed.
• Mace of Justice: You already know what I think about this. 5% on a single weapon, not something I agree with. This would be a lot more interesting if it increased the critical chance of the Mace.
• Glacial Heart: While the chill effect is really nice, it’s just too many hoops to jump through: Every 45 seconds you have a 50% chance that maybe your Hammer gives a chill effect. Also keep in mind that you need to invest in additional crit for it to be really worth it.
• Focused Mind: The only Meditation with a noteworthy cast-time is Merciful Intervention. The cast-time on Smite Conditions is rather negligible.

Honor
This line deals with surviving, healing, supporting and has themes for reviving and Shouts.
Adept

• Vigorous Precision: This is not a bad trait, but it is oddly placed. Everyone who’s going to play support will have this trait, but they won’t have much precision.
• Wrathful Spirit: This trait was recently weakened so that it only gives 3 seconds, instead of 10. This shows mainly how important it is to make your traits as clear as possible. Three seconds of Retaliation every 40 seconds at best is ultimately not worth it.
• Pure of Heart: This heals for around 650 with no other healing increases. Just so you know.
• Empowering Might: Just like Vigorous Precision, this isn’t a bad trait, just one that is oddly located. This could have easily been an adept trait, so it’s easier to pick up for the builds that can use it (although this may be the reason it was placed at master-level).

Virtues
This line is about your Virtues and Consecrations.
Adept

• Inspired Virtue: This trait may be too good, because I can never think of a reason to not take it.

Master

• Elite Focus: I dislike this trait because Elites are something everyone uses, regardless of build, so putting it here, removes the option of improving them for a lot of builds (especially since our elites can’t be improved with other traits). Also, it increases the cast time of Renewed Focus, which I’m not sure is a good thing.

Grandmaster

• Permeating Wrath: I tested it out, and it didn’t seem to actually burn the area around me. Even if it did, it would be a rather bad trait, unless it gave a fire field.

This thread is so full of flame bait that I would feel guilty adding to it, so I’ll only comment on Permeating Wrath.

Very few people have given this trait a fair chance, and unlike you suggested (naively), it does work. Damage-wise, this trait does some serious work in pve and wvw. Imagine beginning a whirling wrath and teleporting into a group of three players and one pet. That’s easily 30 hits (theoretically 9×4 +7 = 43 max hits), or 6 activations of passive virtue of justice, and each one applies a burn to every one of those players. Add in an active VoJ near the end and you’ve gotten upwards of 10 seconds of burning on everybody (4k plus EXTRA damage). If you spend 10 points in zeal, you can also give yourself 10% damage to burning foes, making this some of the highest AOE damage anyone can crank out.

@ens: I just gave my opinions. I didn’t intend to create “flame bait”. I encourage you to disagree with me.

I actually tested Permeating Wrath briefly, and I didn’t really see it do what it described. I’ll test it out further.

Permeating wrath doesn’t “burn the ground” it just applies the burn to everyone around you.

Also Focused Mind is the proper trait to take for many builds, if they don’t use shields primarily. Being instant is more than just having 0 cast time, it means you can use them literally any time; even while flying through the air and stunned and dazed or in the middle of attacking. You will notice it saving your skin more often than you imagine (well, if your meditations heal).

Elite focus is always worth considering. Tome of Wrath is one of the most powerful WvW elite skills of any class; and this not only gives it 50% longer duration, but allows you use skill 4 twice before it ends.

No time right now to continue. Also, how did you choose which traits to comment on? You neglect a lot of KEY guardian traits.

ens.9854:

Permeating wrath doesn’t “burn the ground” it just applies the burn to everyone around you.

Also Focused Mind is the proper trait to take for many builds, if they don’t use shields primarily. Being instant is more than just having 0 cast time, it means you can use them literally any time; even while flying through the air and stunned and dazed or in the middle of attacking. You will notice it saving your skin more often than you imagine (well, if your meditations heal).

Elite focus is always worth considering. Tome of Wrath is one of the most powerful WvW elite skills of any class; and this not only gives it 50% longer duration, but allows you use skill 4 twice before it ends.

No time right now to continue. Also, how did you choose which traits to comment on? You neglect a lot of KEY guardian traits.

Permeating Wrath shows, once again, the importance of clear wording.
I don’t think Focused Mind is actually bad, but I don’t think it’s powerful enough to be a master-trait or even exist. If you made all the Meditations instant we wouldn’t get all that stronger.
Elite Focus also isn’t a bad trait, but it’s again badly located. There’s nothing really about the Virtue-line that makes you think: “This is the line that should make our elites better.” It would be better, in my opinion if it was more accessible to more builds.

I only picked traits that I had more to say about than: “Yeah, pretty good trait, works well in certain builds and fits the trait-line well.” I didn’t feel like going over every trait. Good traits don’t need much discussion (outside of build discussions), it’s the weaker or weirder traits that deserve mentioning.
How I picked the traits to discuss:

• Traits I personally find bad.
• Traits that seem out of place (too deep in a line, in the wrong line…)
• Traits that could be better

I think we discussed this in another thread but not as indepth. Just to overcap, I generally believe in both pve and pvp situations, downed and falling traits are useless. If you’re participating in a jumping puzzle, you should be punished for making a wrong move, plain and simple. I also think the 5% damage increases for specific weapons is a little on the weak side and provides no flavor. After the recent nerf to wrathful spirit, I can’t see myself taking it over larger symbols or even reduced shout duration. I think

Pure of heart should be changed to regeneration instead of an instant heal and here’s why: Upon entering battle, you lose your first aegis at full health so you’re not benefiting from this trait from the first loss.

Strength in numbers needs to scale or be given a higher base stat specific to your level, 30 isn’t enough.

I also believe inner fire should be changed to be affected by all conditions and change it from fury to might so it doesn’t become too strong.

Ynna’s post is mainly of good intent. Seeing how many “We’re underpowered!” everywhere in profession forums, it’s worth to have a close look at each trait and skill instead of screaming another “Anet didn’t care [insert profession]” thread. More constructive this way.

Anyway, I can vouch on Ens about Focus Mind and Elite Focus. Since I’m a support guardian build, I found instant meditation an incredible bonus to many builds of this kind, it’s just that I want them all and I couldn’t make up my mind :P

Tome of Wrath is just insanely powerful, I could flip the side of the table in a contesting node with proper use of it. So extending its duration is very very very helpful.

It seemed to be Ynna was more or like trying to point the flaws in out Trait Lines… of which I don’t agree with any.

Zeal might have issues with Symbols AND other weapons that doesn’t have Symbol skills, but remember that you don’t necessarily need to pick all your weapons to be the most effective. They’re presented as choices, and if you check other professions’ Traits, you’ll notice the same.

All minor traits in Zeal works with Symbols somehow. As such, it’s a great choice for Greatsword, Hammers and Staff users. Everything in there also increases damage, and 5% is not much, but it all adds up in the end. Other professions, save a few exceptions, are just like this.

On the Zealous Blade, many people think bad of this Trait when they don’t even test it themselves. This is actually a GREAT trait. It makes any hit from your Greatsword to heal you for 25 at 80, which seems low, but they don’t consider how many hits you can deal in any given time. This trait works with Symbols ticks and anything else you can damage with.
Laying down two Symbols at once plus Whirlwind Wrath heals roughly for 700ish (500ish if you drop one symbol only), every 10 seconds or so. I don’t think that extra health is bad for a Grandmaster Major Trait.

For Radiance, the Spirit Weapon trait is a nice addition in a way that, if you choose to focus mostly on 1h and go for Radiance and don’t pick anything in Zeal, you can still use Spirit Weapons effectively. In fact, that trait is the one that increases the Spirit Weapons damage the MOST of all the ones we have…

On Valor, I never really got Focused Mind, maybe they planned Meditations to be casted and changed somewhere, or whatever.
Courageous Return is a nice, you just have to think of when it’ll be useful. Pretty much ANYTIME you get down’ed. If you did get down’ed, it is expected you tried everything to save yourself (including using Virtue of Courage), and in case you Rally, you’d be back in fight with a 90~ sec CD on Courage? So yes, it’s a good minor trait.

There’s nothing oddly placed in the Honor line. That line is about healing and support. You crit? You support others. Using a symbol? Support others. Nothing wrong here.
I don’t know if you’re trying to say Pure of Heart heals for too much or too low – I think it’s amazing. Like someone already posted somewhere, you can get up to 5~ extra Aegis during a tough fight – that’s an extra 3000+ health. Works nicely with the minor trait from Valor 5 and Virtue of Courage (if you dare use it). Another little thing to help if your situation is really that desperate.

Inspired Virtues… am I the only one who dislikes this trait line GREATLY? The only good thing there is the Master of Consecrations because Consecrations are just too awesome to pass, but everything else is just… wrong.
Using a Virtue is usually my last resort, because the passive they give are just too good to lose. Virtue of Justice being the only exception, because it can be refreshed if you trait Radiance, but only for regular, single mobs.

Using Virtue of Resolve for a mediocre heal plus a Regeneration boon? And then losing a minute of 102~ regen per sec? No thank you.
Dare I trade 2 free Aegis for one on demand? No thank you, I have plenty of other stuff to keep me up while I wait for the free Aegis to come.
Virtue of Justice is also weirdly designed, because the Active damage is roughly 5 times the passive damage. If you consider you attack once per second (which is low for most/all weapons we use), you’d deal the same Active damage in 25 seconds, or you could deal it in the first 5 seconds and none in the next 30 seconds. But what about groups? Well, pretty much any group in any DE or even dungeon will have burning already stacked and adding extra timer on it won’t increase it’s damage – especially since the burning duration most of the time never fades off a champion monster. Still, it’s the best “useable” of our Virtues.

Inspired Virtues… am I the only one who dislikes this trait line GREATLY? The only good thing there is the Master of Consecrations because Consecrations are just too awesome to pass, but everything else is just… wrong.

Placing points into radiance requires you to rethink how you play the guardian compared to a straight off damage build. Advantages of the virtues line won’t be noticed unless you fully devote your traits, weapon setup and utilities towards it including your elite.

Renewed focus goes hand in hand with the virtues line which suites the role of a support/bunker build. I find radiance not so good if you place the rest of your points in Zeal and radiance. Virtues have these types of cooldowns because they are group buffs. When you activate these it depends on the situation of the fight. There will be times where your opponent will be dead within 20 seconds because they killed themselves with retaliation and activating your virtues simply speeds up that process before reinforcements arrive.

The virtue cooldown problem can be solved with our elite skill which has a relatively low cool down compared to the tomes. The virtues line changes those skills into something you have to use more liberally in combat and the quicker you adapt to this, the more fights you will win.

This is just not pvp. A well timed Aegis can prevent 1shots and pushback similar to how you can time sanctuary or Mace skill #3. The 5 second burn from VoJ is useful for those fights when enemies go out of range/ disappear or teleport. Enemies or champions that just stand there with their thumbs in their bum isn’t a very good example for that virtue. It has it’s uses, just not on easy or zerg encounters.

Pretty sure I agree with pretty much everything Ynna has said here. Also, Resolve can be more useful than it initially looks As with an on-demand aegis.

On Zealous Blade, if all you WW hit (14 hits) combining with SoW on a single target, you’ll heal for 475 in one combo (19 hits x25). Also, the chance of you to land all 7 projectiles is not dependable so the heals would be less (on average, it’s around 2-5 projectile hits). However, this is not taking into account of other attacks beside WW and SoW.

Against 5 mobs, it’s 7 hits from WW (total of 35 hits on 5 monsters) plus 7 projectiles and SoW will give 25 hits (5 hits x 5). Total of 67 (35 + 7 + 25) hits which is 1675 heals in one combo. On AoE, I’ll say this trait is exceptionally strong and get stronger with the more mobs. Again, this is not taking into account of other attacks beside SoW and WW.

Imo, I don’t like this trait since it forces me to use only one weapon, but it’s not a bad trait at all.

Inspired Virtue is already strong just for the 3x mights. I think of it like a Warrior’s Signet of Might (however with 2 less might but effect your whole group). 5 points for an extra signet in theory, I’ll take it. It also has great synergy with Renewed Justice for some might stacking. Regen and Protection bonuses are just a plus. There’s time that you have to activate them because they’re your last line of defense (they can save you). The only tier 1 minor that is better than Inspired Virtue is Vigorous Precision. Also, Virtue of Justice passive will activate more with sword and hammer (activate once every chain attacks) thus overall, it will deal more damage than activating VoJ. This only applies on solo however.

I mainly have a gripe with Zeal and Valor. The rest of the trait lines are pretty good, though some abilities could use tweaks. The reason I focus on those two lines is because their focus is too narrow.

There is basically no point in going 30 into Zeal. Ever. Spirit weapon AI is too flimsy to warrant boosting their damage. Healing on the greatsword, though it seems great on paper, is just that. If you’re attacking 5+ enemies and you aren’t in danger of having your face smashed in, the healing is pointless (nothing is reducing your HP). If you’re attacking a few things and they’re hurting you enough to be scared, the healing is rather weak. Even at the master level, the only overly useful major trait is the one to stop spirit weapons from being destroyed on command (another topic). The 5% damage can be picked up via other traits. On top of that, all the minor traits focus on symbols. If one or maybe two did, that would be okay. But not all 3. In addition, using symbols offensively only works well in PvE.

Valor has the same problem as zeal, which is that it’s overly focused. However, it’s not as bad because at least it has a decent selection of powerful major traits. The meditations are instant trait needs to be re-done, however. This is a relic from beta when all meditations had a cast time. At the end of beta, Judge’s Intervention and Contemplation of Purity became instant by default. But basically, if you aren’t using a mace, hammer, shield, then the master slot seems wasted. I usually see the +5% of toughness->precision trait taken with -20% meditation cooldown taken in the first two major trait slots.

Radiance is pretty good, though its focus is clearly on one-handed weapons. Still, half is better than a single weapon.

Valor I find good all-around. Support builds can use it to help with shouts and healing, and offensive builds also can use it to add healing and damage.

Virtues is good in an “all-or-nothing” sense. It’s very good for heavy support builds, but there’s little in there to make it worth taking for any other purpose. However, the first minor trait is extremely strong and hard to pass up in any build.

Many of the traits Ynna mentioned are actually useful if you have a build for it. For example, I use the trait that has Aegis heal on removal. Ya, it sucks when doing zone content, but in dungeons and PvP, when it resets during combat or you activate the virtue, that healing is pretty good for an adept level trait. If you combine it with a spec into Valor, you get additional benefit because Courage recharges on a rally (and you WILL go into downed state in most content). But in general, Adept level trait issues can be left for later since they were never intended to be extremely powerful.

I would tackle the issue of spirit weapons first. Many seem relatively weak without the master trait to not destroy on command, but some (spirit hammer) seem overly strong when using that trait. I would just make the not destroyed on command trait baseline to the weapons. Perhaps raise the command cooldown and have this trait lower it?

In general, a lot of the bonuses that apply to one weapon need to be combined or made far more powerful to make up for them only applying to one weapon. For example, 5% damage with scepter or greatsword should be the same trait or 5% damage from greatsword and heals on hit (as a grandmaster trait).

Valor’s master traits need to be a bit more broad. I would drop the instant meditation trait (make it default on the rest if needed) and replace it with something that you don’t have to build around in order to use it.

Danicco.3568:

It seemed to be Ynna was more like trying to point the flaws in out Trait Lines… of which I don’t agree with any.

That’s cool. I’d like all our traits to be useful and if I’m mistaken about any of these, I see that as a good thing.

Zeal might have issues with Symbols AND other weapons that doesn’t have Symbol skills, but remember that you don’t necessarily need to pick all your weapons to be the most effective. They’re presented as choices, and if you check other professions’ Traits, you’ll notice the same.

It’s okay to “force” choices. That isn’t bad design. The problem is that nothing about the like (apart from the minor traits) encourages you from using the weapons with Symbols, apart from the Greatsword. If you use the Scepter (which is encouraged by the damage increase) your minor traits lose half of their usefulness.

There’s nothing oddly placed in the Honor line. That line is about healing and support. You crit? You support others.

If you’re planning on playing support, you’re crit won’t be high enough to really benefit from “on crit” traits.

I don’t know if you’re trying to say Pure of Heart heals for too much or too low

I was just saying how much it healed, because the trait itself didn’t and neither did the wiki.

There’s a set with precision/vita/healing which fits pretty well with Vigorous Precision if you want to go support route.

Exedore.6320

Virtues is good in an “all-or-nothing” sense. It’s very good for heavy support builds, but there’s little in there to make it worth taking for any other purpose. However, the first minor trait is extremely strong and hard to pass up in any build.

I actually have to disagree. But it depends on what you want to get out of your build. My basic line of thinking is that more Boon Duration is always good. Whether you Shout a lot, whether you stack Might via Empowering Might or Empower or whether you’re just spammy with your Virtues. You don’t always need to go 30 deep, but 10-25 all have worthwhile picks, even for more offensive builds.

Also consider this: Every piece of gear adds damage in some way. Boon Duration is harder to get and only via Sigils. More of a good thing is always good. Especially if it’s more Might and thus keeping your damage up again.

Master of Consecrations, Consecrated Ground, Vengeful with Virtue of Retribution… ah hell, all the Traits have their uses. The only one I could never get behind even in concept was Unscathed Contender, and I do think that Shielded Mind’s Stun Break is better achieved by picking a Skill or two that will do it (Stand Your Ground or Judge’s Intervention).

I gotta say though, in regards to Unscathed Contender, there have been times where I’m sitting back with a staff, flinging buffs one way and slow, non-projectile projectiles another where I think, ‘Wow I’ve had aegis on me for a long time, imagine if I had Unscathed Contender…’
And then I never change to it because I like ground targetted consecrations.

Schakal.6091:

Exedore.6320

Virtues is good in an “all-or-nothing” sense. It’s very good for heavy support builds, but there’s little in there to make it worth taking for any other purpose. However, the first minor trait is extremely strong and hard to pass up in any build.

I actually have to disagree. But it depends on what you want to get out of your build. My basic line of thinking is that more Boon Duration is always good. Whether you Shout a lot, whether you stack Might via Empowering Might or Empower or whether you’re just spammy with your Virtues. You don’t always need to go 30 deep, but 10-25 all have worthwhile picks, even for more offensive builds.

My point was that unless you’re going for a support style – and I would consider a shout heavy build support – then the benefits of the Virtue line are just not that good. If you’re going for a damage build, then 5 points in Virtues can be great, but 10 points is rarely that useful, and anything more is hurting you. If you go a support build, you probably want to dump 20+ points into the line to increase boon duration in addition to getting some bonuses to your Virtues (which you’ll use quite a bit). You can’t just look at the minor major traits. You also have to look at the stats lost by not going into a different trait line.

I’m sorry, Trungalung, but Zealous Blade is not even close to being a proper healing skill in comparison to the other trait heals the Guardian gets by that level. It is entirely dependent on you connecting with every hit against superior numbers, but that means it’s a niche trait for general PvE…not even dungeons, where you’ll generally be facing only a few enemies at once.

You can get a good 300-400 healing tick from symbol healing, which not only heals you but your allies standing inside of it. This is devoid of any specific number of enemies to estimate its strength, which means it is better against smaller enemy numbers.

If you want to compare it to a user-only heal, though, it pales in comparison to the Valor line Grandmaster traits. They aren’t dependent on the number of enemies around, nor on how many hits are connected. This alone makes them more proficient at their job than the Zeal’s own.

The Zeal line isn’t horrible, but neither is it better than the other trait lines at anything other than spirit weapons. It’s unfortunate, but I’d rather take the Valor line over Zeal any day for healing and damage.

I just want to recap and add some things I think should be altered and I would hope some would agree.

-Zealous blade needs to stack with a stat, 25 a hit isn’t significant enough even if it were an adapt trait.

-Zealots speed isn’t exactly what’s needed at 25% health. Why not have it give protection or swiftness?

-Binding Jeopardy I think should be changed to burning damage since, even when discussed earlier, Guardians don’t stack vulnerability very well.

-All downed and falling traits need to be replaced

-Any weapon master traits should add some flavor instead of a paltry 5% increase. I’ve looked at say the Mesmers traits and some give stat bonuses or range increases.

-Inner fire I think should have it’s named changed and affect all conditions but give a different boon so as not to be too powerful.

-I think the internal cooldown traits should be removed and added to another skill.

-Focused Mind should be changed since most of them are instant and 1 is less than a second for cast time.

-Combine the symbol traits

There’s more but I think most if not all of you get the jest of what I think should be altered.

I’m not entirely sure of the exact numbers, but I think that with Vigorous Precision & Altruistic Healing you heal for about 75 health on every crit. That means with a 33% crit rate this equals the heal of Zealous Blade on all skills. Additionally it also heals for the Buffs that you give your allies so if you lay down Sigil of Wrath this combo will automatically out-heal Zealous Blade as you get Healing for applying Retribution.

Additionally it also Heals for your other weapon set *cough*Empower*cough*, any buffs you give for activating your Virtues or shouts, and I think it even scales with Healing Power…and that’s just with a 33% crit chance. If you’ve got a higher chance, well that’s just even more Heals. If you add Empowering Might, well that’s even more Healing done.

I don’t really care to run the numbers and I know that there are many people that rune low crit builds, but if you do run a crit build Altruistic Healing probably blows Zealous Blade out of the water.

Or you could grab Absolute Resolution and just buff your Virtue of Resolve passive which I think outheals it as well. Might not spike quite as high as Zealous Blade & Whirling Wrath, but overall it & over time it probably outheals it.

On the whole, in my opinion, spec’ing into Zeal isn’t worth the points. You can get all the extra damage you need from all the +power on your gear and you lose too many useful traits from the other attributes.

The point is that you’re comparing Traits from different lines. That doesn’t make sense.

Sure, Altruistic Healing heals for more than Zealous Blade ANYTIME with a Greatsword because of the Might / Retaliation you’ll be applying all time (against 1 mob), but you’ve gone that far in a TOUGHNESS Trait Line. You get extra defense, more mitigation via skills, and more heals for survival.
Comparing with Zeal, a DAMAGE Trait Line, of course you should get more survivability. Or you can accept Zeal as the damage line, and get extra Vulnerability on Symbols (works for everyone), extra damage AND get some survivability if you go for Greatswords.

If they were all equal, there would have no point in going to either the damage or defense lines, because all Grandmaster Traits would do the same.

We’re analyzing traits…in depth. It makes perfect sense.

Also, you don’t need that much power. Try a few other traits and see what works rather than taking the “Moar power!” approach.

@Danicco

Valor is not all toughness. It also provides crit damage. Depending how high is crit chance, that 30% will boost your total damage substantially (at 50% crit chance, it’s 15% damage overall from the bonus). According to 80 berserker gears, every % of crit damage equals to about 12-14 stats. Therefore, every point in Valor will equal to 12-14 stat bonus comparing to every point in Zeal for 10 power stats.

Analyzing is ok, but there are comments comparing how Trait from line A is better/worse than Trait in line B.

Like arguing why the 3rd minor trait from Honor gives more damage bonus than any minor or major trait from the Zeal line…

And I like Power. The more, the better.
Some like to be tough, some like to be healthier, some like to crit… I like pure, simple and raw power.
There’s plenty of viable, non power focused builds, and this is why I think Guardian are pretty good (can’t say the same for other professions, as I haven’t played them extensively as I did with a Guardian) – you can be as effective or nearly as effective as any other Guardian regardless of the build you choose.

The build I use is very useful in both PVE and WvW. Lets be honest, I believe we are all here to PvP..I am. I go 20/25/0/20/5. I use a combo of GS and shield/sword. When engaging a group of players I start off with Save yourselves (gives multiple boons), Leap of faith which creates an AOE blind that causes vulnerability. I then activate virtue of justice which will allow my next hit to be fire. I then activate symbol of wrath which will aoe fire. My trait is setup to do 10% more damage with GS and 10% more damage to burning foes. I then do WW which does HEAVY aoe damage. With my stats built mainly on power/crit/precision if I am not focused I can literally take out a group of at least 15 people. Also if you put a sigil of intelligence on your one hander and sigil of battle on your shield, you can rotate to sword/shield and have 3 stacks of might with a next hit 100% crit. Once you switch to sword and shield you activate flashing blade with will create venerability and then Zealots defense. With your 100% crit and stack of might on, your Zeolots defense hits crazy hard for 7 hits.

Danicco.3568:

The point is that you’re comparing Traits from different lines. That doesn’t make sense.

Sure, Altruistic Healing heals for more than Zealous Blade ANYTIME with a Greatsword because of the Might / Retaliation you’ll be applying all time (against 1 mob), but you’ve gone that far in a TOUGHNESS Trait Line. You get extra defense, more mitigation via skills, and more heals for survival.
Comparing with Zeal, a DAMAGE Trait Line, of course you should get more survivability. Or you can accept Zeal as the damage line, and get extra Vulnerability on Symbols (works for everyone), extra damage AND get some survivability if you go for Greatswords.

If they were all equal, there would have no point in going to either the damage or defense lines, because all Grandmaster Traits would do the same.

Except the vulnerability stacking of Guardian is laughable, and you get more general utility out of Radiance for an aggressive build than Zeal. The added symbol damage is lackluster, and there is little synergy with other trait lines. So really, you wind up going into Zeal for a niche build—the weapon traits. It makes a great spirit weapon build, but that’s about it in terms of non-weapon utility. So, in other words, going 30 into Zeal means you have less tactical options available.

If you go Radiance, though a bit bugged I believe atm, I think you get a better shot at doing more continuous damage to a target. It also benefits sigils, which is very nice due to our “best” heal being one. So while the two might share a bit of synergy between spirit weapons, again…very niche.

But, this is good. Zeal is underwhelming, and I’d like to see it get better. If you can make Zeal work for you, that’s great—but don’t take that as an assumption that the line is fine. If we can get all the trait lines up to par with Honor (by far the most balanced of them all, imho), then we Guardians are in a very nice shape.

“Except the vulnerability stacking of Guardian is laughable”

One symbol adds about 7 seconds of vulnerability from 1~4 stacks, with 30 in zeal (adds 30% duration).

“The added symbol damage is lackluster”

A 400 damage Symbol will improve to 500ish damage. That’s a 25% damage increase, and assuming you can use it every 8~10 seconds… that’s a nice boost if you play two weapons with Symbols.

“and there is little synergy with other trait lines”

It’s pretty equivalent to Radiance, if you want 2 Handers you pick Zeal, if you want 1 Handers you pick Radiance… or both if you don’t mind Valor/Honor.

I’m not discussing opinions though, but you’re also assuming the trait line is not fine.

I agree that Honor is the best trait line, there’s plenty of majors I’d pick but only three choices, it adds boons, heals, damage, utility…

No, I’d say Zeal for greatsword, not staff (Honor, Virtue) or hammer (anything but Zeal, tbh). Like I said, it pushes you into a very specific role melee-wise, sans spirit weapons. And yeah, I’d say the vulnerability is lackluster because it doesn’t carry over to PvP very well; if you don’t care about PvP, then go right ahead. There are plenty of effective builds out there that utilize underpowered traits, as there is a difference between inefficient and broken.

The damage is decent from the Grandmaster minor trait, but keep in mind to fully bring it out you’ll require 20 points into Honor as well…again, shoe-horning you a bit. Now, it’s good because Honor is good to invest in. But still, that means 50/70 points are already used up just so you can heal yourself with the greatsword. And a minor heal at that.

I guess what I’m really trying to say is that Zeal doesn’t really have a good set of traits that sets up a wide variety of builds, or inspires most builds to dabble a bit into it. Radiance is great with 15 invested, Virtues are great at 5, and Honor/Valor are just fine with 20. However, few very builds go just 10, or 20 into Zeal…it’s the all-in type of trait line. Now, I don’t know specifically what can be done to improve Zeal, aside from its Grandmaster traits, but it still requires some tweaking.

It’s okay to admit the trait line isn’t spectacular, because then everyone can nail down what’s bad about it. I’ve said countless times that Valor is missing a good Master trait, and Virtues could use a little boost in a few areas.

It’s interesting how you can defend the use of traits like you’re actually going to get the full stack of damage/vulnerability off. This game is all about mobility and you’ll be lucky if you get one tick from any symbol.

Draeka, I have to common, with your last two paragraphs there. There are those that just think “more power = more damage”. They just immediately spec 30 points into it, take whatever traits are available there and that’s all there is to it for them, not realizing how much synergy there can be if you put your points elsewhere. It’s just stack power, toughness & vitality, grab a greatsword and see big numbers.

For me, as I’ve said above, Altrusitic Healing, Renewed Justice, Inspiried Virtues, Writ of Exultation, Two-Handed Mastery, etc, etc. There’s interplay between them and it’s just more survivable.

I’ll also agree with Valor missing a good Master trait. I take Retributive Armour & Purity in that line on my way to Altruistic Healing. If you’re playing Mace or Shield, you’re good. If you’re not using something else, not so much.

“They just immediately spec 30 points into it, take whatever traits are available there and that’s all there is to it for them, not realizing how much synergy there can be if you put your points elsewhere. It’s just stack power, toughness & vitality, grab a greatsword and see big numbers.”

Sometimes I don’t even know why I try to discuss something…

Zeal might not be balanced compared to other lines (matter of opinion), but it has it’s strengths and if you want to be blind about it, that’s not a problem. Just don’t assume everyone else is.

Enjoy your build. I’m enjoying mine.

Danicco.3568:

“They just immediately spec 30 points into it, take whatever traits are available there and that’s all there is to it for them, not realizing how much synergy there can be if you put your points elsewhere. It’s just stack power, toughness & vitality, grab a greatsword and see big numbers.”

Sometimes I don’t even know why I try to discuss something…

Zeal might not be balanced compared to other lines (matter of opinion), but it has it’s strengths and if you want to be blind about it, that’s not a problem. Just don’t assume everyone else is.

Enjoy your build. I’m enjoying mine.

I don’t think he’s trying to be blind. I just believe he’s trying to compare and have a discussion about each tree and what they have to offer. Zeal can be excellent for spirit weapons and symbols but as I stated above with how this game works, it’s very difficult if not impossible to take full advantage of each symbol.

Only reason i could find to go a full 30 Zeal is for the +300 power and condition duration. I’d grab fiery wrath, GS +5% dmg, and either Zealous Blade or Shattered Aegis.

The major mastery’s dont seem all that great… but the 300 power…. thats the only thing i can think of being a major plus

“I don’t think he’s trying to be blind. I just believe he’s trying to compare and have a discussion about each tree and what they have to offer.”

I found his comment filled with disdain, so I don’t think that was “comparing and discussing” anymore.

Symbols are troublesome to land in PvP, but they’re not difficult to use in PvE at all. Most monsters stay still, and even champions/veterans or dungeon mobs don’t need to be kited to avoid their damage.
When it’s focusing on me, I find it easier to just walk around it, or through it (with the melee assist off in Options) to avoid it’s attacks. Then my attacks and symbols can still damage them (Symbols are Larger is a must imo).

And I agree with you. I just thought this discussion was leaning towards pvp is all. As much as I hate to say it, i’d rather prefer auras instead of symbols for mobility.

Also, I tried some other builds that didn’t involve GS or Staff or Hammers.
I like Swords and Shields, and I was trying to come up with a decent build that I’d find as effective as the GS/Staff or Hammer one.

But I couldn’t. No other build I tested (and I’ve spent nearly 1 or 2g with retraits) came close in effectiveness. Damage was always lacking in comparison, and so was utilities.
Which is a shame, because I really prefer Sword & Shields (or Torches) than 2 Handers. But even though I did play with some alternative builds, I couldn’t avoid thinking “This should’ve been dead already”, “I was supposed to take all those at once”, “I’m missing some boons” and such.

Though I won’t say GS and other 2 Handers are OP, but rather that 1 Handers are lacking…

Arken.3725:

And I agree with you. I just thought this discussion was leaning towards pvp is all. As much as I hate to say it, i’d rather prefer auras instead of symbols for mobility.

Suddenly, I can quote again!
I agree with you, the Swiftness is great for walking around, but the Symbol has it’s drawbacks since you get in combat if anything follows you…

But it’s probably one of the fastest Swiftness uptimes you can get, properly traited, you’d be 2~3 seconds without Swiftness at any time (or none with extra boon duration). Other professions don’t have it that good…

Right but is that the only saving grace for symbols?

Zeal has some issues (lackluster Grandmaster), but it’s solid for Spirit Weapons (which I run), and Symbolic Exposure is a good trait.

Speaking in terms of PVE, Symbols aren’t as kittenome people seem to insist. They usually don’t last terribly long—long enough to deal their damage, activate their effects, provide a Combo Field and, with Symbolic Exposure, tick up to 4 stacks of Vulnerability. Which is hardly insignificant.

Symbolic Exposure works great with a lot of weapons. Greatsword has a fast-recharge Symbol. Staff has one too, and at range to boot. Hammer has a Symbol in every auto-attack chain.

Enemies are less mobile in PVE than in PVP. Most enemies probably will stay inside your Symbol radius long enough to tick all four Vulnerability stacks, provided you do it at the right time.

In PVP though, yeah, absolutely. Symbols are still a factor, but enemies will move through them far more often. They benefit more from immobile/static melee than fluid/mobile melee.

I think the intentions are good but the title of the thread is misleading. I was looking for info on traits that I hadn’t had as much experience with yet. This is seems more like an opinion thread about the placement of traits and how some traits do not appear useful to the OP.

Any thread about builds turns into a conversation about trait placement and opinions on them lol especially on the ones they feel might be bugged or dont pull as much weight as others.

Its also the best part of this game, the fact that so many people have come up with different styles and builds (of course most of them claim theirs is supreme or gives the most advantage) but still there really hasnt been a Cookie-Cutter copy/paste build.

Only people who havent number crunched or put much effort into building something or testing it, they’ll look to the ones that have and post on the forums about it. Not that its bad but its just the way it goes.

If you want to discuss the traits specifically, then that’s fine. If you just want to talk about “what goes best with 30 Zeal & Zealous Blade,” then that’s something else. Zeal is all about power, sigils & spirit weapons. Not that great an option. I can see spec’ing maybe 10 points into Zeal for something like Fiery Wrath, but that’s about it because the traits available aren’t that good. I could maybe, maybe see Focused Mastery if you use the Focus a lot for PvP but that’s about it.

Altruistic Healing beats Zealous Blade. 5% more damage? I’d rather have 20% cooldown reduction on all two-handed weapons, because that’s essentially 20% more damage with the non-auto-attack skills. The minor traits are Sigils and the other stuff is mainly Spirit Weapons.

The other trait lines give so many more options and inter-connectivity…that’s where the depth is.

I run a very similar build to what Shadow just described. GS/Hammer and the 20% reduction on them both is significant. It’s also worth noting that if you’re going honor, it’s probably best to go crit for the constant vigor you’ll obtain, especially with whirling wrath.

I also run with 2 Handers, GS/Staff.

My build is 30 Zeal, 30 Honor, 10 Virtues (or Valor, I change often).
I’ve considered Valor 30 for better self healing, but I don’t think the trade off with Zeal is worth it.

Increased Symbol damage, Vulnerability, extra damage on burning foes, reduced fall damage (a must for some jumping puzzles and the regular walking around) and the option to change to a heavy Spirit Weapon if necessary wins against anything Valor 15+ could’ve offer for me.

I pick Valor 10 sometimes since the Aegis at 50% health and reduced Meditations CD or the bonus to precision are GREAT, but there’s not a Master and Grandmaster traits that’d fit my commonly used weapon sets and skills. Same for Radiance.

Virtues aren’t that good in my opinion, if it weren’t for Master of Consecrations, but just because Wall of Reflection is SO awesome… and sometimes Spirit Weapons for fun.

Though for PvP, I find a balanced Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honor build best for 1v1s you get while running the fields, but a build like this also have it’s uses when you’re in zerg fights.
Casting 2 Symbols and Whirling Wrath (with Stand Your Ground for precaution) when a teammate goes down, when you have enemies that rush for the kill… it’s awesome.

For WvW, I don’t have any particular build I find useful, but I stick with the 30 Zeal, 30 Honor, 10 Virtues one, Staff/GS or Scepter & Shield with all Symbols enhancements and extra damage/CD reduction, and every ranged protection utility skill I can get (Wall of Reflection, Shield of the Avenger, Sanctuary).
I don’t get kills, but I think I prevent my team from getting (too much) killed too.

I think that’s depth enough, isn’t?