Guild Wars 2

Please nerf it only at pvp. and dont butcher it to oblivion also.

PvE guard feels so good now.

Guardian has always been TOP tier profession in WvWvW. Guardian has been WvWvW meta since Autumn 2012. Sometimes half of some zergs have been guardians. Don’t you think there should be place for a bit more diversity?

+1 We’re in a good spot finally and it’s a lot of fun to play. Would be so rip if it went back to hammer spam.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Guardian has always been TOP tier profession in WvWvW. Guardian has been WvWvW meta since Autumn 2012. Sometimes half of some zergs have been guardians. Don’t you think there should be place for a bit more diversity?

This has 0 to do with the request at hand. They could easily nerf wvw builds into the ground without even touching pve guard if they so wished.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Guardian has always been TOP tier profession in WvWvW. Guardian has been WvWvW meta since Autumn 2012. Sometimes half of some zergs have been guardians. Don’t you think there should be place for a bit more diversity?

There is a point where its not your job to tell people how to play (specifically referring to balance changes).

This is not one of those points.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Guardian has always been TOP tier profession in WvWvW. Guardian has been WvWvW meta since Autumn 2012. Sometimes half of some zergs have been guardians. Don’t you think there should be place for a bit more diversity?

That question is similar to asking if Anet should actively nerf and buff professions through a rotation of ‘winning’ positions so everyone ‘gets a turn’. No, I don’t think there is a place for introducing diversity with a nerf/buff system because we already have it … If you want diversity, you get it through access of multiple character slots and choice of multiple professions.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Guardian has always been TOP tier profession in WvWvW. Guardian has been WvWvW meta since Autumn 2012. Sometimes half of some zergs have been guardians. Don’t you think there should be place for a bit more diversity?

This only applies for zergs. Outside of zergs (solo roamers, small havok teams, etc) this is not necessarily the case.

When you examine zergs you see many players with whatever builds they want so nobody is excluded on the basis of profession and build.

Thief/Daredevil is one of the best solo roamers, should we nerf it to improve solo roaming diversity?

Obtena.7952:

That question is similar to asking if Anet should actively nerf and buff professions through a rotation of ‘winning’ positions so everyone ‘gets a turn’. No, I don’t think there is a place for introducing diversity with a nerf/buff system because we already have it … If you want diversity, you get it through access of multiple character slots and choice of multiple professions.

Not really, having half the classes as either useless or barely used in WvW raids/zergs, whilst at times half a zerg is made up of one class or there is more of that class than four or five classes combined in a raid/zerg, is the opposite of diversity, you get diversity by giving classes roles so everyone can bring something to the party.

But as Anet basically spent 3 years balancing for their failed “e-sport” neglecting WvW & PvE, with PvE raids only now getting balance consideration, the result has been for WvW, probably the worst class balance over the long term in any MMORPG I’ve played.

Its sad that someone mentions pvp and everyone starts talking about WvWvW.

zinkz.7045:

Obtena.7952:

That question is similar to asking if Anet should actively nerf and buff professions through a rotation of ‘winning’ positions so everyone ‘gets a turn’. No, I don’t think there is a place for introducing diversity with a nerf/buff system because we already have it … If you want diversity, you get it through access of multiple character slots and choice of multiple professions.

Not really, having half the classes as either useless or barely used in WvW raids/zergs, whilst at times half a zerg is made up of one class or there is more of that class than four or five classes combined in a raid/zerg, is the opposite of diversity, you get diversity by giving classes roles so everyone can bring something to the party.

But as Anet basically spent 3 years balancing for their failed “e-sport” neglecting WvW & PvE, with PvE raids only now getting balance consideration, the result has been for WvW, probably the worst class balance over the long term in any MMORPG I’ve played.

I don’t get what you mean “Not Really” … if you want diversity in performance by CLASS in WvW, or anything else, you get it through class choice. How many roles do you think Anet can invent just to provide diversity for each class to not be useless? Let’s be realistic here … It’s not 9. Why would they even strive to do such a thing? Besides … when was the last time you couldn’t participate in WvW with whatever non-diverse, useless class you wanted to use? Answer is NEVER!

zinkz.7045:

…having half the classes as either useless or barely used in WvW raids/zergs, whilst at times half a zerg is made up of one class or there is more of that class than four or five classes combined in a raid/zerg, is the opposite of diversity, you get diversity by giving classes roles so everyone can bring something to the party.

Again I have issue with your statement. I have never seen anyone “kicked” from a zerg for playing what they want — so the lack of diversity (if there is one) is due to personal player choice, not an enforced meta. Yes some professions are desired (rev for resist. guard for stab, etc.), but that’s not at the exclusion of other professions.

If your argument is “my favorite class doesn’t work well in a zerg” that’s different problem — a problem that’s not solved by nerfing anything.

juno.1840:

If your argument is “my favorite class doesn’t work well in a zerg” that’s different problem — a problem that’s not solved by nerfing anything.

My only argument is class balance in WvW has generally been absolutely horrible because Anet basically ignore it, which is why there is such huge disparity between what classes and how many of each is desired in raid or a zerg, and no that is not simply “player chocie” that is what is effective, which is what class balance is in a video game.

As for nerfs, that is part of how you balance, along with buffs, and frankly an awful lot could do with a nerf in this game as the powercreep and the tedious dull combat it has produced is one of the reasons PvP & WvW are in the state they are in.

That argument makes no sense because Anet doesn’t ignore class skills and balance; we have multiple, focused class balance patches to prove it.

Disparity between classes exists simply because they are … not the same classes. What is desired in a zerg in WvW is irrelevant … the commander gets whatever flotsam and jetsam players bring to their map regardless of how useless those classes may be.

You seem to be under the impression that somehow, you don’t see balance in the game, yet the things you say as evidence aren’t related to balance … Powercreep isn’t a balance issue (you can still get it even if classes were perfectly balanced) and tedious dull combat can also exist with perfectly balanced classes. Me thinks you don’t understand what balance does and how it will affect the game.

Obtena.7952:

That argument makes no sense because Anet doesn’t ignore class skills and balance; we have multiple, focused class balance patches to prove it.

What? Are you new? For the first 3 years they basically balanced around PvP, with HoT they balanced for PvE raids also, out of the thousands of changes made, only a handful were for WvW, they basically don’t balance for WvW.

Or perhaps you think they do, and that they are just massively inept at it, to the point for WvW guards, necros, etc have largely been basically a requirement in vast numbers for the entire game whilst mesmer, thief, engy, ranger, etc have been between a couple for niche roles or totally surplus to requirements the entire game, perhaps on whatever planet you live on that is called “balanced”, here on planet earth it isn’t.

Obtena.7952:

Disparity between classes exists simply because they are … not the same classes.

Erm no, disparity between classes exists because of disparity between how useful or efficient they are, that is what balance is supposed to address, if guilds don’t recruit classes X & Y because they are subpar to other classes, but require 10 of class Z in a 25 man raid because it offers so much it is indispensable, then that is what is known as kitten poor balance.

Obtena.7952:

Me thinks you don’t understand what balance does and how it will affect the game.

The irony is strong with you…

It’s sad that you can’t realize that balance can be something else than how a class performs relative to others. It’s more sad you can’t see that kind of balance becomes more difficult and less achievable as the combinations of skills and classes increases .. like we have in GW2 now.

Regardless, if you want diversity, you already have it, which is the discussion here because Anet designed each class to have a fairly unique flavour and unique class skills, completely independent of any consideration in balancing for other classes. If you understood what you were talking about, you would see that achieving increased diversity is, in fact, in direct opposition to achieving class balance. Class balance, as you see it, requires classes to become more like each other and their own tools to become more like themselves …

So choose … you either want balance or diversity. You don’t get to play both sides of that fence. You see it all the time in games.

Good point. Let’s of complaints are made about balance as if balancing gw2 pvp were as easy as balancing overwatch.

@zinkz and @Obtena, are u guys seriously arguing over terminology?

FYI, I hear the next coming balance patch will have been made with mostly WvW in mind, so look forward to it.

I guess only the heal trap is worth to be looked at …

In regards to the wvw argument. Guard,war,rev,ele,necro,mesmer, even engi are anywhere from decent to great in wvw atm for zergs. Out of all the classes there are only 2 i would say aren’t really desired but even then can be useful in certain comps/strategies. If thats not diverse enough for you idk what you want.

As for pve and pvp, we’re in a pretty good spot for pve atm no complaints there. On the pvp side of things i can see how people would want a few things to be toned down a tiny bit no ones going to deny that traps can be frustrating to play around when theres 4 dh’s on a team but i think we’re largely ok, not amazing, not bad either. Most of the qq is more from anets horrible matchmaking system then guardians actually being a problem. Would hope thats plain enough for anet to see without needlessly nerfing things which don’t need to be.

wvw zerg meta should never be used as a basis for balancing anything, ever.

Yannir.4132:

@zinkz and @Obtena, are u guys seriously arguing over terminology?

FYI, I hear the next coming balance patch will have been made with mostly WvW in mind, so look forward to it.

No, it’s not an argument over terminology. It’s a discussion about people being narrowminded and assuming about class balance and it’s relation to the topic of the thread.

Darknicrofia.2604:

wvw zerg meta should never be used as a basis for balancing anything, ever.

Thief’s auto buffs were for PvE and DH LB nerfs were because of WvW.

Anet takes WvW and PvE into account when they try balancing PvP. It’s a terrible reality that they do.

Saiyan.1704:

Darknicrofia.2604:

wvw zerg meta should never be used as a basis for balancing anything, ever.

Thief’s auto buffs were for PvE and DH LB nerfs were because of WvW.

Anet takes WvW and PvE into account when they try balancing PvP. It’s a terrible reality that they do.

The other way around has been the case a lot too. PvE guardian is finally in a good place. It’s not overpowered but competitive and definitely fun to play. I fear it’s gonna be shortlived tho. In the AMA they talked about many balance changes in the next patch being for WvW and we can all see the cries for pvp nerfs. Gonna be rip guard once more.

Obtena.7952:

It’s sad that you can’t realize that balance can be something else than how a class performs relative to others.

It’s sad you have zero understanding of what class balance is, if a class is so weak that it is basically not wanted in a game mode that is an issue, this isn’t a MOBA with 100+ champs, it is a game with just 9 classes.

Obtena.7952:

It’s more sad you can’t see that kind of balance becomes more difficult and less achievable as the combinations of skills and classes increases .. like we have in GW2 now..

No dear, I realize that, fundamentally it is a kittenty design that gives the illusion of variety to nabs and makes balance more difficult, but again you are just making excuses.

No one expects perfect balance, but you know some level of balance would be nice, if I compare PvP or PvE raids to WvW raids/zerg then those two game modes are far, far better balanced than WvW is, not just in terms of more classes having a useful role, but also in their being a far smaller gap between the strongest classes and those that are less strong, and also in terms of basic functioning skills / mechanics that work in those modes, but then that is what happens when you actually balance for a mode, as opposed to basically ignoring it.

Obtena.7952:

Regardless, if you want diversity, you already have it…

No, what you have in WvW is a lack of diversity.

zinkz.7045:

No one expects perfect balance, but you know some level of balance would be nice, if I compare PvP or PvE raids to WvW raids/zerg then those two game modes are far, far better balanced than WvW is, not just in terms of more classes having a useful role, but also in their being a far smaller gap between the strongest classes and those that are less strong, and also in terms of basic functioning skills / mechanics that work in those modes, but then that is what happens when you actually balance for a mode, as opposed to basically ignoring it.

Oh here we gooooo….

Yes, Anet gives us no balance and ignore game modes … you got me! :/

Or perhaps you think a bit about why you perceive this and realize it’s because Anet doesn’t balance the way you think they do >< Nah, that would shatter your entire understand of how balance works and why we will never have it. It’s simply that Anet sucks right? You can’t be wrong.

Well, I guess you can be satisfied that you can always blame balance for whatever you please.

The only thing i wish Anet “balances” in this game is the AOE+cleave spam…

Reduce aoe skills, reduce cleaves, make better aoe skills on staff elementalist etc.
More trade offs, more options.
Less lag being spammed.