Guild Wars 2

basically i see this as a huge disadvantage for guards. i always used to love builds that are scattered through all of the traits. lets say 60611. or 20642. well or even 21641. only one i used that kind of fits HoT was 20660. my personal favorite is now 60611. u got vigor/boons. then Zeal 6 u got scep dmg + greatsword dmg +fiery wrath. and also 6Valor for full Medi build. (maybe not the best build but surely a fun one. great damage and u still can benefit from boons/vigor) no recharge on GS tho. but that doesnt rly matter.

and now we’ll have to choose 3 traits :/ okie so lets say Valor/Honor/Virtues. GS/Scep/Foc. but well… no Fiery Wrath. No 2handed cooldown recharge (GS). wut r ur thoughts? im quite dissapointed. probably the most fitting build for me would be 6zeal6valor6honor. but id loose alot too since i wont be able to get boons. i dunno but im already storing my guard for a long break and rolling a necro. on one side having 3 grandmasters is awesome.. but for Guardians who’ll be still be playing GS/Scep/Foc i highly doubt it’s a great change.

dont mean to be a negative one tho. but really is any1 concerned in the same way as i am? its more of a “agressive” guardian gameplay concern i guess. bunkers will still be awesome i suppose. cheers

Your concerns are partly describing how the system is supposed to work. If you want survivability, you give up some damage potential. If you want damage, you give up some survivability or utility. Guardian has quite a few good traits at the start of lines, so it’s impacted more by these changes. It’s better for balance in the long-run.

My concern is that a lot of trait choices still aren’t good or lack synergy with their trait line. For example, Fiery Wrath would work better in Radiance and the +10% damage while under retaliation trait from Radiance would fit better in Zeal.

A bunker build with Valor, Honor, and Virtues would have an incredible amount of healing as well.

Fiery Wrath used to make sense (and still largely does) in Zeal due to the condition duration. You don’t care so much for the damage the burning is doing, just that the target having burning (which is an innate ability of the guardian to apply) allows you to deal more physical damage. Retal in Radiance works due to the synergy with Radiance 3 (recharge VoJ on kill) and Virtues 3 (virtues apply retal on use), and the synergy of retal and Radiant Retal. It can make sense to swap them, but I think they’re just slightly more fitting the way they are now.

Guardian has a lot of synergy, but sometimes it’s not quite in your face.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Retal in Radiance works due to the synergy with Radiance 3 (recharge VoJ on kill) and Virtues 3 (virtues apply retal on use)

That’s actually what I was talking about. The trait lines lack internal synergy; they should be more self-contained. If you don’t spec into virtues, the damage while under retaliation doesn’t make much sense. Any selection should stand on its own in a trait line, but may become a stronger option when paired with others.

also bit concerning that it used to be “2 handed weapon recharge reduced”. and now they scattered it all over the place. hammer is there, greatsword is there and staff is hell knows where lol. im sure ill go Zeal/Valor/Honor medi… but i noticed ill be loosing quite alot of good stuff it will make me basically “nerfed”. just the thing ill gain will be those Symbols. but who would be so bad in pvp/wvw that would stand in my symbol so i could do 20% more dmg? that sounds very avoidable.

anyway no idea what to think of it yet but yea.. seems like Guardians will change quite alot. cuz best builds were really scattered through 4 or even 5 traits. time for a change ^^

Nope. I did the conversion from my current build to the new one and the only things I’ll lost from my 01661 build will be Justice is Blind and Inspired Vitue, which means becoming less deffensive, but is balanced due in exchange the gs strikes will provide more damage, a bit of sustain (healing), I’ll do a lot more damage while fighting thn gs #4 and the reduction of cooldown in the focus skills will worth the loss.

What bothers me is how the attribute points from the traits will be placed in the armor. For sure will be very expensive to rebuild my gear again.

my only concern is that we have to make tough choices and that some are not fair. the 2h Mastery trait is a good example. I love hammer but if I want to boost it, it does compete with absolute resolution which is almost favorable in any situation if I take virtures in the first place.

The GS trait on the other hand is a stupidly easy choice, blinding jeopardy is really not that important compared to a 5% damage boost, sustain and overall higher dps. And if you are going for a condi spec Zeal will likely no be in your set up at all. so kindled zeal really will never see any takers in that line.

Having the hammer mastery in Zeal would make so much more sense.
swap it with kindled zeal arenanet ! do it now, do us all a favor!

Personally, I find it fair that the catch-all Two Handed Mastery was shuffled out to the various other trait lines. Of the top of my head I don’t know of any other class that has that strong of a cooldown reduction in a single trait. That trait alone reduces the cooldowns of skills from GS, Hammer, Staff, Spear, Trident, and would have also reduced Longbow skills as well. From a single trait? That’s a bit much in my tome. I like the alternative of reduce cd by 20% of [weapon] and [get additional feature for that weapon].

Traits overall though I feel like are in a good place. As already mentioned the goal of the new spec system is to do away with the trait line dipping. so things like 46202 or 35042 won’t work any more. Is that going to make for hard decision making. Absolutely. Trait consolidation such as Writ of Persistence Indomitable Courage is wonderful as well (combining three current traits into one).

IMO, the biggest issue is the lack of thought on themed traits to one specific line (so similar traits are not spread across several trait lines).

ie. Symbol traits are still mixed up and all over the place.

There is currently tons of viable builds for guardian, other classes as well. I find synergizing with my team to be nearly as fun as actually putting our composition to use, tweaking and adjusting as we go.

I fear an era of uniformity is coming. While we are getting 4 additional points to work with, the choices available will be drastically reduced. No more short paths, no more choosing multiple traits from the same tier, everything on rails.

The symbols things is a little odd, but then again there are a lot of traits that based around Symbols. It’d be quite the massive sump to put every single trait related to symbols in one line. That, and a lot of appropriate traits would need to be awkwardly shuffled elsewhere.

Zeal seems to based around applying more damage which is reflected in the symbol traits: wrath (retal) symbol at threshold, vulnerability, and additional 10%. The Zeal spec still preserves this theme by adding additional damage potential through symbols: symbols burn, additional 20% against those standing in symbols.

Honor focuses a lot more on defensive capabilities and boon granting. Same thing here with the symbols. Though longer and larger symbol add to more damage those traits still fit with the theme of boon granting: longer symbols have more boon pulses while larger symbols allow for more coverage for allies to get the boons. For the most part we’ve been using it as an additional damage modifier, but thematically it still fits. The healing symbol fits very well in honor as well.

Build-wise, things are going to be more concrete. Oddly enough I find traditional MMO’s being the better example of when you choose a “specialization” you are pretty well committed to it to where in this game we effectively are picking the best of the best.

savacli.8172:

….
Honor focuses a lot more on defensive capabilities and boon granting. Same thing here with the symbols. Though longer and larger symbol add to more damage those traits still fit with the theme of boon granting: longer symbols have more boon pulses while larger symbols allow for more coverage for allies to get the boons. For the most part we’ve been using it as an additional damage modifier, but thematically it still fits. The healing symbol fits very well in honor as well.
….

someone has said before too that the honor line is missing evasive power trait. it actually has been totally removed, but would be nice to still see included somewhere, even if it was a master or adept to choose from.

its been said those adept honor traits are weak (fall dmg redux & rez traits) and could be combined, opening a spot for evasive power

Jaxom.7310:

its been said those adept honor traits are weak (fall dmg redux & rez traits) and could be combined, opening a spot for evasive power

+1

Bulwark is about as good as it gets but is dependant on having a mace. Even then healing is more on the “meh” side vs its current counterpart that gives a constant +250.

savacli.8172:

Jaxom.7310:

its been said those adept honor traits are weak (fall dmg redux & rez traits) and could be combined, opening a spot for evasive power

+1

Bulwark is about as good as it gets but is dependant on having a mace. Even then healing is more on the “meh” side vs its current counterpart that gives a constant +250.

indeed, right now, either u use honor w/ a mace, or u use honor and accept u are using 1 less adept trait than everyone else

Jaxom.7310:

savacli.8172:

Jaxom.7310:

its been said those adept honor traits are weak (fall dmg redux & rez traits) and could be combined, opening a spot for evasive power

+1

Bulwark is about as good as it gets but is dependant on having a mace. Even then healing is more on the “meh” side vs its current counterpart that gives a constant +250.

indeed, right now, either u use honor w/ a mace, or u use honor and accept u are using 1 less adept trait than everyone else

+1 that has got to be worst adept choices for any profession, hands down.

ANET pls fix this.

Jaxom.7310:

savacli.8172:

Jaxom.7310:

its been said those adept honor traits are weak (fall dmg redux & rez traits) and could be combined, opening a spot for evasive power

+1

Bulwark is about as good as it gets but is dependant on having a mace. Even then healing is more on the “meh” side vs its current counterpart that gives a constant +250.

indeed, right now, either u use honor w/ a mace, or u use honor and accept u are using 1 less adept trait than everyone else

This ^.

On fall damage, on rez & on rally traits really need to go away so some real choices can be made.

Also the new glacial heart trait sucks compared to the old one.

Jumping off cliffs for the falling damage symbol. Add the Writ and Avenger traits, boom, Honor Guards will be the new meta.

savacli.8172:

Jumping off cliffs for the falling damage symbol. Add the Writ and Avenger traits, boom, Honor Guards will be the new meta.

ah! there’s the synergy. genius

Jaxom.7310:

savacli.8172:

Jumping off cliffs for the falling damage symbol. Add the Writ and Avenger traits, boom, Honor Guards will be the new meta.

ah! there’s the synergy. genius

You gotta do an evading jump though. Make use of them minor traits.

I think Anet is doing this to dumb things down. It seems to be a persistent approach. If it’s easier, it continues to appeal to lower common denominator.

It almost makes it too easy to plan traits. You don’t need to think too hard to decide what points go anywhere. Just choose three lines. It’s not only a trend with GW2. Bioware ruined SWTOR spec system the same way.

I really hope ANET changes its mind and allows us to slot Adept traits in Master slot and Adept/Master traits in GM slot. How can having extra build diversity hurt?

Traditional Medi meta is there.
The Hammer meta is there.
Bunk Guards are there.
Hybrid Guardians are arguably better now than ever

Not having a 20% weapon switch reduction cd is the least of my worries right now. Lets face it, that trait isn’t exactly game breaking. The Specializations are prioritizing the builds the majority already use. People can’t use absurd non-meta “random allocated trait” builds like 5/2/5/1/1 or similiar. I’m not saying these are bad builds… …i’m just saying you don’t have to think as much anymore… yea that’s what i’m saying.

Obtena.7952:

I think Anet is doing this to dumb things down.
[…]
It almost makes it too easy to plan traits. You don’t need to think too hard to decide what points go anywhere. Just choose three lines.

So having to find some awkward combination of traits to get another 5% damage increase was deep and meaningful? Or just picking and choosing a combination that has the largest +% damage or best might-stacking traits as possible?

First, the specialization system is intended to give each specialization line an obvious goal or enhancement/alteration to gameplay. If you want condition damage, you pick the line with a lot of condition damage bonuses. If you like group support, you pick that line. It’s worth noting that the previewed guardian traits aren’t the best example of this philosophy.

Second, by locking major traits to a specific slot, it allows for meaningful choices between major traits. Right now, more than half the trait choices are pointless or extremely niche. With the revamp, the choices will typically all do something similar but in a slightly different fashion, such as in the second major slot in Radiance. Unfortunately the guardian preview had few other good examples.

Lastly, this new system makes balance easier and allows for expanding the specializations in the future. With the current system, each trait slot, minor or major, tries to balance not just with its direct peers, but also every other trait slot The deeper into any line you go, the more it needs strong traits along the way or an extremely strong grandmaster trait in order to compete with the shallow traits. What happens is that picking a lot of low-hanging fruit is often the best solution. The new system makes lines compete against other lines as a whole and each slot only compete with its direct peers. For example, ANet may decide that each damage trait lines must have a certain percent damage increase for the entire line. But they’re free to choose how to arrive at that increase. The “low-hanging fruit” problem goes away because placement of a trait within a line only matters for its two direct peers.

So while you’ll see less variation in which lines are chosen for a particular role (PvE will pick the damage ones), you should see greater variation in the choices within a line. Knowing which lines someone has chosen gives you a decent idea of what their role will be. And really, is it any less brainless than looking up a build on a website?

Anyone else remember that excellent 14/14/14/14/14 cele meta? Way back before the cele stat buff and when trait lines were 30 points.

Good, meaningful build choices right there. So sad to see them go.

Exedore.6320:

Obtena.7952:

I think Anet is doing this to dumb things down.
[…]
It almost makes it too easy to plan traits. You don’t need to think too hard to decide what points go anywhere. Just choose three lines.

So having to find some awkward combination of traits to get another 5% damage increase was deep and meaningful?

Is it? I didn’t say or imply it was deep and meaningful. I’m just responding to the OP’s concerns because I am also concerned. See my sig … how dumbed down do you think this game should be? At some point our choices become trivial. It’s already happened with gear, NPE was changed to be trivial and now it’s starting to happen with traits.

I’m constantly swapping traits in dungeons/fractals atm. The only thing I’ll swap in the future is prob virtues & dragonhunter specs. From a PvE perspective it’s definitely dumbed down, but less so than ele for example.

As for PvP, I see quite a few interesting new traits for a medi build. Not feeling like being forced into 1 viable build there.

My real concern is to have useless traits like Retaliatory Subconscious and a few other. This kills the diversity.

Also, the Honor line will go from one of the best to the worst. The adept line is garbage and master line is weak. They should at least put Writ of Persistence in Master (swap with the useless Pure of Heart). This would make support builds more attractive.

They MUST put a second functionality on all falling traits as well. Some classes already have, like Thief.

Spartacus.3192:

I really hope ANET changes its mind and allows us to slot Adept traits in Master slot and Adept/Master traits in GM slot. How can having extra build diversity hurt?

They won’t for the simple reason that they want meaningful choices in tiers which can be seen by some choices being tough having to give something up and take something else. By the amount of "I can’t take this and this anymore anrt wtf " threads they accomplished their goal. Think they stated somewhere if we haven’t changed your build and its still there let us know so we can.

The second reason is with less choices the game actually becomes easier for them to balance. I would take a few less choices but a much note balanced and refinded system and game any day over what we have now.

They only joked about wanting to changed your build I’d it was untouched. What they did say, is if the sprit of your build is gone, key them know because they could try to bring it back.

For almost every build, the sprit is still there. The only build I can think of that didn’t survive in spirit is elixer bombs for engineer, and perhaps ricochet unload IP sustain thief, although you can do ricochet unload and unload IP, just not ricochet IP. For many builds like Medi 2/1/6/1/4 or something, the blind on VoJ every 28 seconds or vigor on crit were not pillars that the build was built on. Medis are the only real pillar, with absolute resolution as a support. With the new traits, you can fully form the virtues pillar while keeping your main Medi pillar, and you still have another line to go into. Every build in the future is going to be much better than the current offering because of the stronger choices we get to make.

My point was the choices are stronger and more meaningful but there are less of them. Having a smaller number of things to take I to consideration would make balance easier. An easier balanced game would get note frequent balance changes ( can only pray )

What worries me is the other classes revealed so far will all see a nice power gain through this expansion and we will take many small hidden nerfs to balance out our power gains. So we will essentially be the same while every other class gets boosted. This is the worrying predicament of HOT.