Guild Wars 2

They said that any class can do every role, but lets face it, theyve kinda just got Guardians wrong when it comes to DPS.

Lets compare to Warriors. They can throw on a full Berserker set and run around critting people for 13k while having a hefty 23k hp themselves.
Now Guardians, we put on a Berserker set, and we have what…. 13/14k hp? Thats asking to be 1 shot by the above Warrior. A block every 40 seconds and a passive 80hp heal just doesnt cut it in dps build to account for them massive differences.

You are basically forcing the Guardian to go for other gear. What options do we have?
Carrion gear. cool this has pow vit condition damage. Now we have to look for a condition build. Oh wait, all we have is a burn… 1 condition. Not good for the gsword choice really.
Ok we want to keep the crit up to be that Greatsword warrior counterpart, we have to wear gear with toughness and healing as theres no gear in-world which reflects the Knights amulet. Again, wtf?

You really need to take a look at this and either find a way to boost the dps guardians HP without overpowering the support guardian, or implement Knights gear ingame with the actual stats of the sPvP Knights Amulet.

If I was Anet I would rather concern myself with adding a longbow to the guardians arsenal so that the guardian has some form of ranged.

Being honest the amount of damage that a Warrior can dish out in comparison to their HP pool is crazy.

I do feel like I am doing quite decent damage currently with my Guardian in PVP with my just under 20k hp, but then again the amount of damage that a Warrior can do is crazy.

Not being like a kid or anything but this kinda calls for a damage nerf for Warriors.

In PvP I basically faceroll people. Try a heavy critical build with Hammer/Greatsword.

In PvE, I don’t struggle with damage either.

It’s harder to build for damage as a Guardian, but we still CAN do it, if you’re willing to put the effort.

Yes we can’t pull off the same level of burst (still up there actually, such as a 3.5k crit every 4s with Mighty Blow, or 4-6k Whirling Wrath/Zealot’s Defense), but our sustained damage is rather high.

I can kill someone in under 15 seconds on my guard.. It is all about retaliation and 2h sword/shield… I destroy in a 2v1 … I have thoerycrafted a lot to get to the point i am and played over 200hrs in SPvP you can do amazing damage if specd right.. It is there just got to find it. Granted it is not as easy to find as 100 blades warrior but any good player can dodge that… they cant dodge burning!

Pretty sure ANet is gathering statistics about the various classes, how they perform and such. When they have enough data, we’ll see more buff/nerfs across the classes. Pretty sure the warrior will get nerfed slightly.

You seem to over look the fact that guardian has a variety of ways to: heal themselves, protect themselves, negate damage and remove conditions.

Guardian is my main and I know for a fact that if they had hp like a warrior they would be grossly overpowered. There health pool is fine as it is.

Guardians deal fine DPS in pvp.
Any combination of Whirling / MB / ZD gives a solid burst on acceptable CD.
Not to mention all the burning damage.

Our damage is fine, especially when compared to the survivability we have.

Welcome to Guild Wars 2 where professions are not clones of each other in how they do their job.

I can kill someone in under 15 seconds on my guard.. It is all about retaliation and 2h sword/shield… I destroy in a 2v1 … I have thoerycrafted a lot to get to the point i am and played over 200hrs in SPvP you can do amazing damage if specd right.. It is there just got to find it. Granted it is not as easy to find as 100 blades warrior but any good player can dodge that… they cant dodge burning!

Care to share your build?

I have no problems with damage with my guard.
but before I condemn the OP, Id like to see his build. Maybe the problem lies there.

Full berserker set with no pts in Honor will give the guardian almost 11k hp (10.8), but I hardly ever die in dungeons thanks to Monk’s Focus. In SPvP, an offensive meditation guardian has 19k hp/2500 armor which is not bad given the damage (I can blow up squishies in 5 seconds).

There are different ways to deal dps. Facerolling is not the only method of burst. The advantages of a Guardian are insane toughness, access to boons like retaliation, and free burns just for facerolling. The more ppl hit you, the more dmg they take from retaliation and conditions, not even counting the dmg you deal with that big ole sword.

Personally I’d rather build a Guardian as a juggernaut that lols at dmg. The whole burst obsession has got to stop, you can’t dps when you’re dead.

Yes but remember, all classes can spec into toughness. This isn’t the one thing Guardians are exclusive to, same with Retaliation.

I can understand how you would compare the guardian to a warrior (Both heavy armor) But if you compare the guardian to other classes right now, they’re in a strong spot. Take elementalists for example, they’re squishy and still don’t have the burst to make up for it. Damage wise Ele’s are just as powerful as guardians, but nowhere near as tanky. I think there should be other priorities right now when it comes to buffing/nerfing. Guardians are fine, Warriors are a tad too strong and Elementalists are a bit weak right now. (Can’t jugde other classes, only got lvl 80 ele, lvl 20 Warrior and lvl 42 Guardian)

Sorry but you are playing guardian wrong, usign a 14.7k glass cannon guardian I fought my brother and another warrior 2v1 using the 100b evisc glass cannon builds and while I got downed, I downed them both. I also use save yourselves which is amazing for 1v1, so no guardians damage is just as good. My zealot’s defense alone does about 6k on average, add in my shield of wrath explosion since I almost always precast that is another 4-5k, and smite conditions which is another 3-4k and thats a hefty 15-16k burst in the span of 2 seconds. Yes I have done this, and yes Im willing to prove it. All of that damage is if I crit ofc, just like a warriors 13k 100b is if he crits. Remember, warriors take 50% more damage during frenzy, pop retaliation and watch them kill themselves. In fact I duel thieves and warriors using save yourselves and auto attack only, and I always win. if needed I can share a build or 2 but Im telling ya, guardians are not weak. Im infact as strong if not stronger than warriors of any build.

I agree with the OP.

atm guardians can’t go ranged at all and they’re also weaker in a group where everybody can benefit from guardian buffs, since guardians have lower stats compared to almost every class in the game (half hp of a necro or a warrior, lower atk with the same power stat, lower armor)

They said every class can do every roll, I don’t recall them ever saying every class can do every role just as good as every other class can. This would be pointless no? Because by this logic they now also need to rethink warrior to include consecrations/symbols/meditations/whatever because guardian has them and it doesn’t.

I can promise you that my 15k hp guardian standing toe to toe with any1 will win 1v1, in fact if you just auto attack me and I auto attack you I will win, even if you have 30k hp. Guardians damage is fine, stop crying and get good.

3B burning Guardian. Have fun.

I hate to be the guy to point this out, but Guardians right now HEAVILY reflect another games vanilla Retribution Paladin.

You were looked at as if you were a cat in a room with wolves. You were laughed at for trying to do something other classes could do with ease, your main priority (based on the devs outlook) was heal/buffbot.

HOWEVER, there were a few of us back then, and I mean very few, who made it work. We didn’t whine and moan; we didn’t cry. We took what we had, and we were feared.

I have no issue on my Guardian, who is in Full Carrion Exotics, with a Greatsword/Sword|Torch. I use a condition based build. 10.30.0.0.30. Burning, blind, and vuln, and I do very well in both PvE, instances, and of course WvW. :]

I think before complaining about what you have, you should try and use every bit of it to get the job done.

Guardians can do great damage. They can’t really do efficient burn damage, but I don’t see that as a problem. Burst-damage is easily evaded, while sustained crit-damage (such as a Guardian can do) can’t really be stopped. When I used my damage build, I burned down enemies fast enough and I lived long enough to do so.

If I was Anet I would rather concern myself with adding a Longbow to the Guardian’s arsenal so that the Guardian has some form of ranged.

Rifle, not Longbow.

We have a Spirit Weapon that is a Bow, why would they give us a Rifle?

Daedalus.3954:

We have a Spirit Weapon that is a Bow, why would they give us a Rifle?

This is exactly what I have been saying to everyone who suggests rifle. All our other spirit weapons are usable weapons for guardian. It seems like we were supposed to have the bow but they ran out of time or something, the spirit bow doesn’t make sense currently.

I truely hope that Anet does not streamline all the classes. I enjoy being unique as a Guardian. I have to find other methods of staying alive, and dealing damage. If I wanted to run around with 23k health and critting for 13k then I would have rolled a Warrior.

As far as only have 1 condition, it just so happens to be pretty much the most potent condition in the game … so no complaints there.

I have not yet been one shotted in PvP, in fact it takes quite a lot to take down my defensive Guardian. As for DPS I focus on Crit and Condition Damage and can put out some nice consistant numbers. I have always enjoyed sustainted DPS over burst DPS.

Again, please please please do not make each class a clone of the other … just because Warriors wear plate and can use a Greatsword does not mean that Guardians should be able to preform the EXACT same way they do … Think outside of the box a bit and you will learn how to make it work for you.

Guardians will never see the use of Bows, Rifles, or Pistols. The class was centered around being a melee type that has many defensive utilities to keep itself alive. If you do not enjoy playing a support/control class, please just move on and stop asking for this junk.

Kindread.9481:

I truely hope that Anet does not streamline all the classes.

Again, please please please do not make each class a clone of the other … just because Warriors wear plate and can use a Greatsword does not mean that Guardians should be able to preform the EXACT same way they do … Think outside of the box a bit and you will learn how to make it work for you.

Very, very well put.

@Rifle vs Longbow: I always propose Rifle because:
A) I like the aesthetic of it.
B) It’s easier to unorthodox things with a magical Rifle because people don’t have expectations.
C) Bows are overdone.
I don’t see “we have a Spirit Bow” as a compelling argument.

@Kindread: That’s rubbish, in my opinion. Guardian’s weren’t designed to be melee-only. If we were we would have seen vastly different skills on Scepter and Staff and the devs wouldn’t have come out somewhere in Beta saying that Guardian’s were indeed rather useless at range (and then gave a rather meaningless range buff).
And Guardians have an easier time doing support or control, but that doesn’t mean they should be pigeon-holed into that role. The design-intent of GW2 was that each profession could do anything.

Dante Dragonhand.2538, nobody said that guardian is not a great solo class. The point is that any class can receive every boon that a guardian casts on him/herself and become superior, relegating the guardian to the role of a mere supporter.

Example.

Party has a guardian, a necromancer and a warrior, all of them with tank build.
Wich one is the better?
Guardian has great damage mitigation with all the aegis and shouts. OPS, every virtue active effect or shout (except save yourself, but a battle lasts longer) is aoe, meaning that the guardian and the nacro have THE SAME BUFFS of a guardian next to them.

So again, who is the best tank among them? I’m sure it’s not the guardian, becouse has the same armor and half the hp, even with the same equip.

This makes the guardian an awesome all around almighty class when it comes to solo play, but a mere buffer/supporter in a party or group event.

Also, have you ever tried WvW?
All a guardian can do there is the supporter. Yes, it can completely change everything thanks to his buffs or the full heal provided by tome of courage, but DOESN’T GET ANYTHING FROM THAT, not a single loot.

So, other options? Can’t be ranged. Can’t chase opponents or cripple them (pretty sure it’s almost the only class with no cripple). Can’t reliably escape (healing the cripple or removing the block once every 40 seconds is not enough).

SOLO: can do everything, you’re right
GROUP: just be a buffer and know your place.

Ynna.8769:

@Kindread: That’s rubbish, in my opinion. Guardian’s weren’t designed to be melee-only. If we were we would have seen vastly different skills on Scepter and Staff and the devs wouldn’t have come out somewhere in Beta saying that Guardian’s were indeed rather useless at range (and then gave a rather meaningless range buff).
And Guardians have an easier time doing support or control, but that doesn’t mean they should be pigeon-holed into that role. The design-intent of GW2 was that each profession could do anything.

So what you are saying is that you want every class to be the exact same, except with a different cosmetic skin? Personally, I enjoy being an individual, and I think most people do as well! Guardians are a Support/Control class that has an option to put out some DPS. As far as being “pigeon-holed” into any type of role, the developers have stated that Melee classes do far superior damage to that of ranged classes. This is an intentional design because of all the defensive traits/skills required to survive in melee range that the numbers even out in the process. I have also yet to discover a class that could not fill the role of support, control, or DPS to some extent, though none of them are the best at all 3. Most classes just seem to excel at 1, do very good at another, and fall slightly behind at the 3rd … I call that good balance, and a good way to create individuality between the various classes.

If I was Anet I would rather concern myself with adding a longbow to the guardians arsenal so that the guardian has some form of ranged.

^This

Welcome to Guild Wars 2 where professions are not clones of each other in how they do their job.

^ And this.

No I didn’t say (or even imply) that I want every profession to be the same, just with different visuals. That’s you putting words in my mouth so you attack me easier.

Guild Wars 2 design intent is that each profession can participate in each role equally well. Check out the design manifesto and early information on the game as well as interviews with the developers.
The professions don’t have to do it in the same way, but they should be equally viable. That’s what I mean when I say people shouldn’t pigeon-hole the Guardian as a support profession. Because A) The Guardian can actually do great damage if people give it a chance and other professions also have great support to offer.

Though I’m pretty sure ANet intended to remove the holy trinity and not the range/melee debate.

A guardian can play tank build and they can play dps with condition damage+power and they can heal. Thus fulfilling the criteria of Anet’s goal.

Except that during one of the beta-weekends one of the devs came out and said that the Guardian not having ranged capabilities wasn’t intended (and then they simply increased the range of the Scepter, solving 20% of our problems…).
It also depends on how you read: “We want each profession to be able to do everything.”

Evangeline.8197:

Though I’m pretty sure ANet intended to remove the holy trinity and not the range/melee debate.

A guardian can play tank build and they can play dps with condition damage+power and they can heal. Thus fulfilling the criteria of Anet’s goal.

You’re talking about solo, because in wvw or istances is not like that.

In WvW guardian is completely useless as tank (lol, tank in wvw) or dps. Why? No ranged weapon in castle siege and no ranged weapon or cripple to hit ranged foes. Also no safe ways to escape from a difficult situation. In WvW guardians can only be supporters (and get NO reward from doing it).

In any party istance, guardians are supporters. Why? Simple. Any class with guardian buffs is better then the guardian who buffed.
A warrior with guardian buffs is a better tank, a mesmer with guardian buffs is a better dps, a ranger has 2 fodders for guardian buffs (and could even tank better since has 50% more hp and protection/regeneration traits + 2 pets).
Useless to talk about necros, that even complaining about their minions AI, have TWICE our hp, minions, ranged weapons, DEATH SHROUD, and IMPRESSIVE armor traits (like +400 toughness while channeling and +20 for each minion). It doesn’t even need guardian buffs to be honest.

Also, lol, “damage mitigation”.. A couple of aegis every 30 seconds are NOWHERE like 100% more hp of a warrior.

Guardian has been nerfed too much.

“Guardian has been nerfed too much.”
You keep saying that, but apart from WvWvW, Guardians are doing fine. In multiple situations, with different builds.

You’re just considering SOLO PVE, that in this game could be easily done by a blind pikachu. Do you understand that any ranger/necromancer with a minimum of skill could play naked in this game?

I’m talking about party istances, where guardian is really efficient only as a buffer/supporter (for the 10th time: every class buffed by a guardian is better then the guardian who buffed) and is usually a second choice when it comes to tank/dps. It also has no real ranged weapons, so even as dps it tends to get hate from the boss, since it’s all about proximity (it seems), and while a guardian is already frail, a dps guardian is even worse.

So we can’t dps (no ranged), we can’t tank (not the most efficient and low on hp), we can’t do almost anything in wvw beside supporting (= no loot).

If you’re only concerned about plain pve, then you shouldn’t be reading this thread.

During the beta I’ve read that guardian was considered godly and almighty, so they nerfed it. It seems they went too far.

While I enjoy the mental image of a blind Pikachu in front of a computer (I’m so going to take that picture tomorrow), the rest of your post isn’t really accurate.
So far, I’ve found myself caring uncharacteristically little about PvE in the game. So I’m hardly considering solo PvE (I’ll admit to my lack of knowledge about dungeons).
I’m talking mostly about (s)PvP. I also find it difficult to believe what you say about dungeons, since it’s not backed up by anything I’ve read. (Incidentally, to anyone reading this, could you back Kidel’s opinion up? I’m just generally curious.)

And did you actually play during beta? Because the people who claimed the Guardian was “godly and almighty” were:
- The same (type of) people who’re calling for Guardian nerfs.
- People who only thought about Tome of Courage.
- People who didn’t do WvWvW.
- People who only did Open World PvE (or sPvP in BWE1).
- People who didn’t actually play the beta.
- … (I’m probably missing a few, but you get the general idea)
The rest of us were on the forums, asking for more ranged, more rewards for support, asking for more mobility on our abilities (we were rooted in place for more than we are now)… Just as we’re still doing.
The Guardian did start out strong. Too strong. We did get a few noteworthy nerfs in beta because (and remember this) beta is for balancing. We’re a lot more balanced then we were at the first beta. We’re not as weak as you think we are.

I haven’t played beta, thanks for your info, now I know who I should blame.

You can find users supporting and not supporting me (I don’t actually think I’m an almighty source of truth xD) in those threads:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Devs-please-stop-ignoring-us/first#post193249

However most of us agree on some major issues, like the lack or ranged options (being the only class in the game with no ranged weapons is kinda frustrating) and no rewards either in stats or loot (in wvw) for buffing others.

What I say about istances is not hard to understand:
Guardian + buff = non_guardian
guardian + buff < non_guardian + guardian_buffs

Making guardian an incredibly useful buffer, but no more than that.

Psy.6153

They said that any class can do every role

Psy.6153

Lets compare to Warriors. They can throw on a full Berserker set and run around critting people for 13k while having a hefty 23k hp themselves.
Now Guardians, we put on a Berserker set, and we have what…. 13/14k hp? Thats asking to be 1 shot by the above Warrior.

Here’s a truth: “any class can do every role” – which in the original post is likely referring to Damage – are not the same as “any class can do every role in any armour”

Kidel.2057

I don’t actually think I’m an almighty source of truth xD

Kidel.2057

being the only class in the game with no ranged weapons is kinda frustrating

Here’s another truth: it does not help our cause when people who “discuss” our weaknesses choose to selectively ignore/omit things.

I’m talking about party istances, where guardian is really efficient only as a buffer/supporter (for the 10th time: every class buffed by a guardian is better then the guardian who buffed) and is usually a second choice when it comes to tank/dps. It also has no real ranged weapons, so even as dps it tends to get hate from the boss, since it’s all about proximity (it seems), and while a guardian is already frail, a dps guardian is even worse.

Every class buffed by a guardian is better than the guardian who buffed them. But without the guardian, they get no such buffs. If you don’t like being the quintessential team player Explorable mode parties crave for, then frankly, this profession isn’t for you.

Guardians have basically become glass cannons without the cannon part. We have a horrifically low health pool, relatively low dps, mediocre toughness, okay condition damage( with one condition). I understand guardian’s are a good support class but as of now that’s the only role we play relatively well , however, the support role is one of the most unrewarding and useless in independent world pvp.

So many opinions in this thread…

Guardians are fine. I’d like to see a Longbow added to our weapon sets because I’d like it (and because I don’t like the other ranged option), but other than that, Guardians are perfectly fine.

Guardians can’t do damage? Ask that for any class who happens to get close when you’re Whirling… I see my enemies health drop around 50% when they get combo’ed in a couple of seconds…
Hammer/Greatsword is unmatchable for melee 1v1s. But since not everyone enjoys meleeing a Guardian, it’s not always the best option…
Sword/Shield or Focus is the most annoying thing ever for any kind of enemy. With a Valor build, it’s probably a broken build for PvP.

And in dungeons, with a proper build, you can do an awesome job DpSing. First, there’s no DpS meters so it doesn’t really matters, but the fact that I can DpS a boss for about 50% of his health and then I keep kiting it for the remaining 50% means he’s kinda attached to me, he likes me, he hates me, or I just wrecked his threat meter and he can’t stop following me.

Also, despite our lack of a decent ranged weapon in my opinion for WvWvW, I do perfectly fine with a Staff. Yeah, a STAFF. That thing with range 600. Damage seems subpar, but it’s a really underrated weapon.

I can’t say about other professions because I haven’t played them as much, but I can get inside a crowd and get out with a proper build/skills. And depending on how many players I can even down one or two before I have to run.

And don’t say, other professions really get better with Guardian boons? Really?
Every profession gives support in a way or another, EVERY.
It’s just that Guardians do much more frequently and all the while still doing whatever they are good doing: killing stuff.
You don’t use Shouts, Consecrations or Spirit Weapons for others. You use them for yourself, but it just happens that everyone else gets benefit from them.
Meditations are sorta individual, and Signets are the most individual utility skills you can get.

Really, play the game, complain less, and if you’re still not convinced, roll another profession. If you don’t go back to your Guardian you’ve found a profession you enjoy, despite it’s flaws. Because EVERY profession has their issues, go check their forums.

Kidel.2057:

I agree with the OP.

atm guardians can’t go ranged at all and they’re also weaker in a group where everybody can benefit from guardian buffs, since guardians have lower stats compared to almost every class in the game (half hp of a necro or a warrior, lower atk with the same power stat, lower armor)

I personally think if they make the scepter give a liitle more kick and speed then it would be fine. Kinda like a magical pistol to the engineer’s pistol. Also i’d just make the #2 a ability that just centered on the target and followed to make the weapon a little more mobile. Other then that i’d say it is fine since guardians have two abilities that instantly can negate ranged combat for a few ticks.

Guardians are in a funny place. If you know what you are doing you can take on a big bite no problem. But if you aren’t paying attention you will go down fast. But since mine is only at 14 and most experience comes from wvwvw i’m not to sure how much my input matters. Still…far better then my ele has given me.

Instead of a nerf on Warriors, why don’t we switch HP and defense? Guardians always came off to me as a bulky version of the warrior. Why are warriors superior in defense, HP, and attack? I say warriors can keep their insane attack if Arenanet gives us superior defenses and HP. And I mean defenses that actually do something, right now it feels pointless. -.-

Guardians have more damage mitigation and health regen than warriors by far. This is effectively increasing their health pool. Each extra blocked attack or hp of regen is something the warrior would suffer from. I know they’re not the same, but professions aren’t supposed to be the same. Not to mention, the damage mitigation and healing the guardian can offer his/her whole team.

The Guardian doesn’t lack damage. However, he’s the only profession that’s lacking a decent ranged weapon and decent ranged abilities.

If anything, they should get rid of the stupid dps tome and give him a usable spirit bow tthat works similar to an engineer kit.

Sorry if this a bit off topic but, what’s:“3B burning Guardian.” or “6b” etc.
I have read this on the forums, and I have no clue what does it mean.
Thank you.

I treat my Guardian as more of a pusher, pushing the front line, pushing their line back, pushing in to keeps, champs, etc. I’ve never really had an issue with the melee aspect of a guardian, I quite enjoy it. Maybe you need more melee to make it work.

Flanking and driving through enemies lines aren’t really accomplished by ranged.

We also counter the mass range thats in the game. Wall of Reflection decimates a ranged zerg. Push in as far as you can, wait till all the range target you, wall, shelted, double roll back evade for big time jokes.

the fact that the guardian cant go reanged is right but think that op more than warrior, thief or mesmer is a joke……

Specter and focus in WvW = not such fun times for people on the walls. I swap that out for shield and mace in the big melees to help top up the players around me. Anet, don’t mess with my Guardian.