Guild Wars 2

Very few of the elite skills across all of the classes are sort of fire-and-forget or one-shot kind of things that you just sort of work in to the rotation. There are certainly plenty, of course, but the standard design for elite skills does seem to be that in general they are the sort of thing that you don’t just fire off with and go. Guardians do have the property that we don’t have any elite skills that are even close to being that way.

It’s absolutely true that if I could put a normal utility skill in the elite slot, I would do so in a heartbeat, but that’s not unique to guardians.

can i has old roj elite?

I’m going to go with a big fat NO.

Hilariously, I have had the best time with Tome of Wrath (the one I initially thought I would NOT like). In PvE, this burning, crippling, weakness spreading tome works ABSOLUTE WONDERS against big pulls of elite mobs. I’m telling you people, try it. You can also spread quickness AND might buffs to your team.. it’s great.

ToW is also pretty good for Wv3.

Courage is useless and NOT fun to use. The only skills that are worth using are 4→5. This dazes and full heals. Not good in dungeons either, especially when compared to spreading cripple + weakness + burning to multiple targets.

Renewed Focus is just a god awful ability and I’m not really sure who thought that would be an appropriate elite.

Tome elites were powerful when you gain stability and vitality last time.
Tome of courage becomes garbage since you gain no stability when you activates it.
Especially the 5th skill, it is annoying for its long casting time and when you get
knocked down when you’re nearly done the casting.

I don’t understand why ArenaNet hates Guardians! =(

BishopX.6453:

symbols are important… once i learned about combo fields it changed the way I played the game. I just wish they lasted longer when speced and were larger.

They do last a pretty good time when traited, and the increase size trait tends to make them pretty huge, in my experience.

Regardless, you are right. Symbols are awesome.

Vydia, please don’t be a jerk. If you have something intelligent to add – as you do in a variety of other posts – just add it. Don’t spam garbage.

Mates, I think we are losing site of the forest for the trees. Yes, Guardian elites are sub-standard. But no, that doesn’t mean our profession is sub-standard too. I pwn on other classes all day long. What we need is a competitive elite. So why don’t we throw together some suggestions for three balanced elites. Feel free to make up three new ones, or – if you want it more likely that ArenaNet will take your suggestion – work from the starting points of the ones we have.

Please list suggestions for fixing the three Guardian elites.

Assuming we find some that most of us can agree on, we can switch them to the suggestion page and go there to endorse the idea.

Spirit Shackle
Shackles up to 5 enemies around your target with spiritual chains which must be smashed in order to escape. Duration 1 minute.

Pure Light
A beam of light nukes the target site from orbit for 10000 damage and all enemies are knocked back with a 1000 strength blowout. Recharge 20 seconds.

I have a Charzooka, so I am extremely happy. I cannot imagine what you other races must suffer through, not having access to it.

I’ve found the one that makes you immune for a bit and resets your virtues to be quite useful in certain situations. I was happy with it, especially combined with traits that boost the virtues. I’m saving up skill points to get the tome of wrath now, but I doubt it will be nearly as funny as the Charzooka.

George Steel.1804:

I’m going to go with a big fat NO.

Hilariously, I have had the best time with Tome of Wrath (the one I initially thought I would NOT like). In PvE, this burning, crippling, weakness spreading tome works ABSOLUTE WONDERS against big pulls of elite mobs. I’m telling you people, try it. You can also spread quickness AND might buffs to your team.. it’s great.

ToW is also pretty good for Wv3.

Courage is useless and NOT fun to use. The only skills that are worth using are 4->5. This dazes and full heals. Not good in dungeons either, especially when compared to spreading cripple + weakness + burning to multiple targets.

Renewed Focus is just a god awful ability and I’m not really sure who thought that would be an appropriate elite.

Pretty much this. I do use Renewed Focus though. The virtue recharge and invulnerability is really amazing in certain situations. I still think it could be a lot better. For example, I don’t think it should root you while in use. I think it should work like Shelter in that respect.

I’m surprised that so many people don’t like renewed focus.

With 5 points in radiance and 5 points in virtues, I can blind all enemies around me and set them on fire and grant stacks of might to allies, then apply aegis to my nearby allies as well as give them 6 seconds of -33% damage, pulse heal everyone for 1800 health and apply regeneration and then do the whole cycle over again after being completely invincible for 3 seconds.

Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me for an elite on a 90 second cooldown.

I dislike all the “Elite” skills. They really shouldn’t even be using the name “Elite”. I don’t like the type of skills they are, and they also last too short. I’d rather have something totally different.

I agree with the thread starter.

To keen in line with the thread purpose and to add a solution rather than moan about current elites I propose these changes:

Tome of Wrath: 2s cast time (on the run); 150s recharge
- Knock down and damage nearby foes with a massive blast (blast radius 600m)

Tome of Courage: 2s cast time (on the run); 180s recharge
- Fully heal up to five nearby allies (radius 900m; pets and minions are not healed)

Renewed Focus: 4s cast time (rooted); 90s recharge
- Focus, making yourself invulnerable and recharging your virtues. At the end of the cast time foes around you are burned (5s) and blinded (5s) (radius 300m)

If you agree with these suggestions +1 this thread to bring it to the dev’s attention.
Comments/ideas are welcome.

all skill elite are very good onl2 are unuseable: renowed focus that block you in the place and the mystic wolf that for some kind it can be unlock with skill point

I think the main reason people don’t like the tomes is because they’re entirely different from any other skill Guardians have. Its more like one of the Ele’s conjure weapons or one of the Engi’s kits. On that note, my favorite elite for Guardian is the Fiery Greatsword, thank Balthazar they always drop a spare.

I really don’t get why they gave Guardians the tomes, it just doesn’t seem to mesh with the rest of the class. You can make some arguments how ToC fits, but it has nothing to do with the whole magical slasher concept of the Guardian.

arcdash.4039:

I think the main reason people don’t like the tomes is because they’re entirely different from any other skill Guardians have. Its more like one of the Ele’s conjure weapons or one of the Engi’s kits. On that note, my favorite elite for Guardian is the Fiery Greatsword, thank Balthazar they always drop a spare.

I really don’t get why they gave Guardians the tomes, it just doesn’t seem to mesh with the rest of the class. You can make some arguments how ToC fits, but it has nothing to do with the whole magical slasher concept of the Guardian.

This is exactly my biggest issue with the Guardian, other than caster weapons with boring attacks as ranged weapons. The elites feel like they are part of a different profession and a knight with a tennis racked or a tree trunk in his hands looks extremely ridiculous, too.

Tesq.1432:

mystic wolf that for some kind it can be unlock with skill point

It’s just for those with collectors edition.

I love Wrath. The Quickness ability is a huge DPS boost.

I’m using Wrath almost full time.

Overall, I’m happy with the Tomes. I haven’t used the 3rd skill except underwater.

Hidon.4680:

I’m surprised that so many people don’t like renewed focus.

With 5 points in radiance and 5 points in virtues, I can blind all enemies around me and set them on fire and grant stacks of might to allies, then

snip

Then you can wait for rez. You’re dead by then. Guardians can’t take having all enemies around them.

elite skills are horrible so I’m using hounds of Balthazar.

Hidon.4680:

I’m surprised that so many people don’t like renewed focus.

With 5 points in radiance and 5 points in virtues, I can blind all enemies around me and set them on fire and grant stacks of might to allies, then apply aegis to my nearby allies as well as give them 6 seconds of -33% damage, pulse heal everyone for 1800 health and apply regeneration and then do the whole cycle over again after being completely invincible for 3 seconds.

Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me for an elite on a 90 second cooldown.

I am a gigantic fan of Renewed Focus for this reason. It gives you a free release of all virtues, usually giving your whole party 6 buffs and +1000 health (not counting regen even). You can release the virtues while channeling it, too. In PvP, the invincibility can be trollface, especially when you’re getting focused. In PvE, the invincibility is a great extra few seconds of tanking or breathing room for your regen.

I find the tomes to be pretty underhwleming, simply because of their cooldown and my limited mobility when using them. Also: I have no idea why you’re not allowed to release virtues or use utility skills when using a tome. All other environmental weapons allow this.

Karew.2169:

I am a gigantic fan of Renewed Focus for this reason. It gives you a free release of all virtues, usually giving your whole party 6 buffs and +1000 health (not counting regen even). You can release the virtues while channeling it, too. In PvP, the invincibility can be trollface, especially when you’re getting focused. In PvE, the invincibility is a great extra few seconds of tanking or breathing room for your regen.

I find the tomes to be pretty underhwleming, simply because of their cooldown and my limited mobility when using them. Also: I have no idea why you’re not allowed to release virtues or use utility skills when using a tome. All other environmental weapons allow this.

I agree Renewed Focus is the best we get but like I said in my earlier post, it could definitely use a tweak.

Just wanted to chime in, dont have time to read everything at the moment. I hate the guardian elite skills. I tend to use mistfire wolf in PvE if anything. In WvW i use the norn elite snow leopard form. Some times i use Tome of Courage for the heals, but i feel like you still need a group of people that know what your doing for it to be effective. Not really a fan of the sitting duck mechanics of these skills at all.

I use Renewed Focus all the time, I find the Tomes to be too situational. Renewed Focus has a short cooldown, is great with a Crit build when using Lyssa signet set. I Renewed Focus when a Greatsword Warrior comes at me! So many reasons why I love it.

The Tomes can be cancelled out with any crowd control. I am sure they are great in a tea fight but so far I haven’t felt like I would have done better using it.

I remember a skill in another game that basically made the player bunker down in one spot. They took at least 50% less damage (maybe even less depending on their defenses), were immune to knock back and stun, and could attack anything in range without worry. The only downside is they couldn’t move from their spot. I feel this would greatly benefit some guardians- the equivalent would be being immobilized for 60 seconds or so, gaining regeneration, stability, and protection (or a more powerful version of protection) for the duration while having access to all your skills. The cool down, naturally, is very high but if used right could save you in a potentially dangerous scenario.

I still think invulnerability is a poor design choice and a lame, anti-fun mechanic. Just lower the cooldown, remove the self-disable and make RF refresh virtues+grant stability, regeneration&protection.

I very much dislike the elite skills for the Guardian. Made the mistake of making my first character a norn. All but one elite skill replaced all my other skills. Didn’t find this out till level 30. Character deleted.

I think renewed focus is useless in most situation but that is about it.

I’d actually prefer more elites inline with GW1, where they could be used more often as utility, rather than something of an afterthought in many situations. I build around my weapons and traits, rather than my elites, which is the exact opposite of how I built my toons in GW1. Personally, I wish the Guardian had a decent avatar skill,or perhaps an elite that triggered on being downed to act as a Guardian version of Lich.

It’d be kinda humorous to get downed by some gankers, only for them to realize I just turned into Balthazar, and I’m ready to go. =)

When I was testing some of them out in the PvP Tutorial area, I noticed that Tome of Wrath doesn’t do any more damage than our sword or hammer does. In fact it seems slightly less. I don’t call that an elite skill.

It takes me roughly 18 or so seconds to kill the Tutorial Heavy Golem with the sword. With the Tome of Wrath, spamming the first skill it takes me 20 seconds. The Thief I tried can kill the same Golem in 8 or 9 seconds (although his attack is not area effect)

I did buy the Asura Attack Golem because I had no motivation for the other skills. Its ok but it depends on what your fighting with it. It has helped but some mobs its useless.

Not at all happy, especially 1v1. All the other classes have excellent 1v1 choices, ours comes down to Renewed Focus which is a bad Elite for most builds. Only mediocre if specialised in Virtues (which is terrible for 1v1).

Here’s my post from a thread I made about our Elites on Guru……..

Tome of Courage and Tome of Wrath.

AoE game changers when used well.

Tome of Courage especially powerful in turning the tide of the battle by essentially giving your surrounding teammates an extra life.

Because of the power of the complete heal we have seen several nerfs since beta, we have seen a couple of cast times increased, range has decreased and we have now seen stability removed.

Tome of Wrath an offensive game changer if used right, the combination of a 3.5k AoE knockdown and then giving all your teammates Haste and Fury could end the fight in seconds if used right.

Stability removed, long cast timers added since beta, Skill 5 used to fire off instantly originally.

Because they are so powerful they have needed so many nerfs, even before some people would spec their build to try and ensure the Tome of Courage heal by using Shelter etc.

Now people will need a Stability Shout + Shelter for the same usage, and when you do pop either Tome you instantly become enemy number 1, because it’s so obvious what you are doing and you naturally need to die fast.

I almost feel it’s a liability to bring either, normally if you aren’t jumped on the fight didn’t actually warrant the use of the Tome and if the fight does need it you can guarantee they will shut you down before you become effective now.

Essentially these 2 Elites are too good.

Then we have Renwed Focus which is terrible unless you spec deep into Virtues and if you do that you sacrifice so much, the Virtues line compared to say Arcane for Elementalists just does not compare.

However, due to the liability of the Tomes I find myself now taking Renewed Focus as the worst Elite with a 10-30-30-0-0 spec for a point defender just because it gives me a 3s invulnerability to avoid some of the Heartseeker spam from hasted Thieves or Hundred Blade Warriors.

I really wish we had an Elite skill that was more of a middle ground, no one particularly uses Tome of Wrath and I don’t like the Tome mechanics too much.

How about Tome of Wrath becoming more of a buff like Signet of Rage for Warriors.

It could be an Elite that gives us 5s Haste, 15s Fury, 15s Might, 15s Swiftness on a 90s cooldown like Renewed Focus.

The only elite that I use is renewed focus, and that’s because I’ve traited it to be useful.

I pretty much always use my racial elite… Hounds of Balthazar. So yeah, I’ve found all the guardian elites I’ve purchased to be pretty lame.

Maybe I’ll like some of the tomes better once I’m doing more grouping / dungeons, but I just get owned whenever I use those in the open world.

I think it would have been nice to see elites related to our weapons…like some really powerful spell you put on your hammer or greatsword for 20 seconds that provides secondary effects to your attacks.

Well I don’t like the elites eather…. some aspects of them are fine but the package doesn’t fit at all…

2 Tomes? One is pure offense the other pure defense…. eather way I am stuck with that playstyle while I am in Tome stance….
Either I am totally vulnerable or no threat at all… doesn’t seem balanced to me…
1 tome would be enough … make it balanced in offense and defense 2 heals and 3 offense skills for example….

Renewed Focus? :P Yeah great one :P Not even as a utility skill….

Im not trying to dampen the mood or disagree with any of the point you guys have made, but your elites are pretty game changing to say the least.

Eles have got much worse elites. A terribad-tornado that more often than not end up with you focus fired and dead, an uncontrollable, weak long CD minion or a sword that locks out 99% of your utility for below average damage.

Anlyon, I’d gladly trade tome of courage for fiery greatsword. I’m sure most eles would feel the same.

Also, to all those who will, don’t bring up Signet of Rage. EVERY class is envious of Signet of Rage.

I’d also gladly trade any of our class elites for any other class elites. Our Elites are also not game changing as claimed. I can do as much damage just as fast with my sword or hammer as I can with the Elite. And our damage output is half of what some other classes are. Although I still like playing the Guardian the most. I’m just using my racial elite instead.

I like the potential for refreshing Virtues but a 3 second root/stun in a game like this is absolutely horrific.

The tomes lack synergy with everything else about guardian play. IMO elite skills should complement/enhance existing gameplay/traits/skills not completely replace them with something else.

Tome’s make you a massive walking target with the only useful abilities on slow cast timers that are easily interrupted.

Having to use a utility slot in order to make 2/3 of our Elite skills actually function is completely unacceptable.

You should all be in massive anger over this.

Skill #5 on both tomes is broken, it’s too powerful as a single cast so it has been nerfed so much you basically need to use 2 Utility skills just to be able to cast it!

They should change the Skill 5’s to be over time abilities instead, Big burning DoT and a Big AoE regen that completes in about 10 seconds.
Instead of a slow cast Complete Heal / Low AoE damage knockdown.

The elites are very build specific. I used to run with tome of courage but found the casting times frustrating to deal with especially when the whole thing goes on cooldown because you accidentally moved.

I used to hate renewed focus but slowly have changed my mind about it. Guardians who placed runes into improving their virtues would understand as many Bunker builds rely on activating their virtues for boons and retaliation. This is why so many damage builds get ripped to shreds by bunkers because they blow all their abilities at once hoping for a quick kill. Renewed Focus has saved me countless times in pve and php but for anyone else who doesn’t have any points in virtues, they won’t be getting as much out of it.

I often die while casting Renewed Focus.. it makes you immune to incoming damage sure, but if you have conditions on you like burning, poison, bleeding and you use it at low health, then you can die from the dot damage. I actually used to like it too, but i died way too often from casting it in tpvp at low health.

Since then i changed to more support/healing and i love Tome of Courage, someone said the 2 and 3 skills being lack luster i think? near spamable blind on one and protection/regen on the other (which go hand in hand together making the regen more effecitive). Though that might be because i played a fair bit of Holy Paladin in the Voldemort of games here (the one that cannot be named it seems)

I often die while casting Renewed Focus.. it makes you immune to incoming damage sure, but if you have conditions on you like burning, poison, bleeding and you use it at low health, then you can die from the dot damage. I actually used to like it too, but i died way too often from casting it in tpvp at low health.

I had this problem as well as I used to treat it as an “oh ****” button when I’m extreme low health but forgot that I had 6-10 stacks of bleeds on me still. I found that being more liberal with renewed focus is a good thing and you shouldn’t be afraid to use it when you’re 40% health and you’ve already activated your virtues.

Tomes suck, Renewed Focus is exceptional and has been a lifesaver on many occasions.

I think the problem here is those of you dissatisfied are expecting the Guardian to be more similar to the Warrior (WoW / Everquest players are probably thinking of Paladins).

But Guardians are straight-up fighters.
They’re designed to be supportive fighters. Pretty much any spec or weapon you focus on will have ways to heal, grant boons, or otherwise support allies.

The Tomes are made for use while having allies around, to control enemies and heal/boost allies.
Stop thinking ToW is more offense-oriented because of one burning skill.

• BOTH are made for support and control.
• ToC is for healing
• ToW is for granting boons

If you want a fighter-style elite, your only option is Renewed Focus and that skill is AMAZING. (Unless you want to use a racial skill, but that’s not for PvP)
- But even then, it’s suppose to be focused on recharging your Virtues. If you think the Invulnerability is the important part, you’re dead wrong. (The proof is in the fact that a few of you are even complaining that you die while using Renewed Focus)

I must agree with most posters on the shaky usability of some of our elites. I never use either of my tomes; I have found renewed focus somewhat useful in critical WvW situations where those 3 seconds helps me avoid massive damage. The tomes for me, alot of the abilities take too long to use. And giving up the versatility with all my weapons and utility skills for those 5 moves… I feel kittened when using them.

Most of the time I simply have Snow Leopard equipped (Norn ftw) and use #4 to help me travel long distances in WvW or to escape a huge mob of people.

I really don’t feel like my elite skills play any part in the way I play the class as I don’t focus too much on Virtues. I mean I do love my virtues… Maybe I should explore that option some more….

Jack Angelfoot.2697:

You guys are right, our utilities are a lot better than our elites, since they don’t completely interrupt our gameplay as Guardians.
Right now, our elites interrupt gameplay to:

1. Sit on the sidelines, taking and giving no damage (we literally watch the game around us) so we can spend time recharging our virtues a little quicker.
2. Replace a bar we like with skills that are overpowered, over-recharged, and internally imbalanced. Like the tomes or hate the tomes, you have to agree that they are very disruptive. Sure, they can change the game, but it is in a bizarre, almost silly, way. One moment you are the front lines hack-and-slasher, the next you are an over powered monk, straight out of GW1, or a glass-cannon elementalist.

If I may be so bold, I think all three elites should be reworked. The point should be to make Renewed Focus better – it just has to be better, I would opt for any utility over this, as I tend to prefer the Virtue passives. And the Tomes should enhance gameplay rather than change it into something completely different.

Suggestions:
Renewed Focus – The Guardian sharpens his focus applying the Chilled effect to all burning enemies within AoE 10 seconds, and applying 5 seconds of Quickness to all allies. In the end, this is not quite as good for your team as the Mesmer elite, Time Warp, but the Chilled Effect – making use of the Guardian’s burning ability – would make up for the shorter duration.

Tomes – in my opinion – should accentuate, rather than replace the Guardian’s gameplay style. Thus, rather than replace all skills, perhaps they should be charged/channeled skills.

Tome of Wrath – Guardian reads from the Tome of Wrath for 3 seconds. After which nearby enemies take XX damage. The Guardian gains 5 stacks of Might, Fury, Swiftness and Vigor for 15 seconds. Allies gain 2 stacks of Might and Fury for 10 seconds. This is simply a much better version of buffing and AoE damage, something Guardians already do. The Channel time, makes the Guardian cautious about just spamming it on recharge.

Tome of Courage – Guardian reads from the Tome of Courage for 5 seconds. After which he is healed completely, and gains Protection, Retaliation, Regeneration, and Stability for 20 seconds. Allies are healed XX and gain Protection and Stability for 15 seconds. The full/group heal makes this better than any other allied buff the Guardian currently has available. Yet, it is not outside of his typical utility. Again, the channel time offsets the obviously powerful benefits.

If ArenaNet made these changes, the Guardian would be better. Not because his elites would be more powerful – many people probably would feel the current tomes pack more punch. But rather, he would be more himself. You wouldn’t have to try to revamp your play style each time you use the elites. They would become part of your playing style.

Please let me know if you like/dislike, or want to modify the ideas. I just want to give ArenaNet the best ideas possible.

How can you complain that the elites interrupt the flow of the guardian’s battle then suggest changing the tomes to something else that also interrupt the flow?

Renewed Focus applying Chill is nearly worthless to us. Having it grant you invulnerability while recharging the virtues means that you can get into the fray, use your Virtues and if you get into a pinch, you pop RF. You are now completely immune to damage for 3 seconds (5 if you take a trait) and all your virtues recharge which means you can now apply an AoE blind, heal yourself and grant regeneration, and gain protection and stability along with a block.

The Tome of Wrath is better as it is instead of giving a few stacks of buffs. The spammable burn on 1 is brutal against gate zergs, and you can already provide two buffs with it. You can also debuff allies. The 5 skill is more or less impossible to pull off against a group, sure, but it deals high damage coupled with a knockdown.

Having Tome of Courage channel for a few seconds into a full heal then going onto a long cooldown is worse as well. And granting 20 seconds of Stability can you not see how that is ridiculous for a few seconds of channeling? ToC in its current iteration grants you a spammable heavy heal, an enemy blind/ally condition removal, group buff, AoE stun and a full heal.

Our elites are pretty good the way they are, they just don’t accentuate literally every playstyle perfectly.

Clairvoyance.1926:

I really don’t feel like my elite skills play any part in the way I play the class as I don’t focus too much on Virtues. I mean I do love my virtues… Maybe I should explore that option some more….

The virtues are a key part of Guardian gameplay. The passive are nice, but the actives are quite potent as well.

Neglecting something like this is a good example of how many other players can’t playing a profession to an optimal degree.

DreamOfACure.4382:

- But even then, it’s suppose to be focused on recharging your Virtues. If you think the Invulnerability is the important part, you’re dead wrong. (The proof is in the fact that a few of you are even complaining that you die while using Renewed Focus)

Well when it states that you become invulnerable but yet you still die in it then it makes you question.
I don’t doubt for a second that its good with a virtues build, i used it in the Mediation bunker build have has 20 points in virtues, it was very good, but there are times when you are in combat and you get low and want to use the invulnerability and the freshly renewed virtues to survive the encounter (happens a lot definding 1v2/3 in tpvp) but if you don’t manage to rid yourself of all conditions before doing so, you can die while casting it, or if you cancel it early to survive it goes on cooldown.

Maybe if it stated that it only makes you immune to direct damage while casting then sure, no problem, but the tooltip just says invulnerable, which would generally mean all forms of damage.

No, I know exactly what we should get:

Signet of the Champion-
Passive: Guardian has Unshakeable
Active: Allies gain two stacks of defiant.

….Oh come on, it’s not OP at all!