“Stupid guardian got me killed by stacking boons on me.”
“STOP GIVING US BOONS.”
They’re boons! They’re not supposed to have a negative! If a class is supposed to be anti-boon, they should strip the boons not get a bonus based on them, which causes boons to be a negative rather than, well, a boon.
Think you might have exaggerated it by describing it as a “mechanic”, which makes it seems as though it is something that players of any class will be able to perform to counter boons. From the clip, it looks like it’ll be a trait that thieves can spec into that will allow them to amplify their damage based on the number of boons on their target. Not something I’m a particular fan of, but I feel like that if this trait is one that forces a thief into a difficult position, between selecting one that helps them have extremely high burst damage vs. getting something that is good only situationally, then I’d find it acceptable… though annoying..
When ground-targetted bone minion explosions become a thing, I will change this signature.- 2013 http://twitch.tv/alemfi/
Hopefully this is going to be one of those spvp only things because damage in WvW is already pretty crazy with bloodlust stacks, foods, ascended gear etc.
Well, you have to admit it, poor thieves need more damage. I mean, imagine their frustration when they can’t one shot a guardian! It’s not good for their health! :p
A damage bonus based on boons is a unique idea, but honestly, I’d rather them just increase the amount of boon-ripping skills available in order to balance things. For one thing, Protection will mitigate the effectiveness from this sort of bonus (since I can’t really see a damage bonus for this going higher than 10-15%), and also, a personal damage bonus won’t help the team nearly as much as just removing the boons could. Adding damage seems like an indirect fix to the problem.
I can’t say I’m too broken up about what this change means for the Guardian, honestly, because boon mechanics have been responsible for some of the greatest imbalances in the game thus far, and it would be nice to diversify the Guardian bunker meta that’s been in place since launch. Besides, it sounds like they’re mostly considering Warriors and Thieves for this role, classes that currently have no chance against well-played Guardians. I don’t mind changes that will at least give them a fair shot, and which may make it harder for bunkers to indefinitely hold points against 1-2 people.
They mentioned it’s a mechanic that will have to be specifically specced or traited into. A thief who specs into boon hate may do more damage to boon stacked targets, but will do less overall to most targets. It’s a form of specialization and counterbuilding.
I mean, heaven forbid the thief class actually have to spec for something… you know… give and take…
Hmm, Glass Cannon + best Escapability/Survivability (ie Stealth, heals ons stealth, condition removal on stealth, might on stealth, regen on stealth, stun break on stealth)…
It’s a Stalemate… and that’s ~Fine~, where one class is too much Bunker and the other is too much escape.
The main difference, at least in a SPvP setting, is that the Guardian is doing his job by surviving, while the Thief isn’t doing his job, since he’s not killing. The only situation where this wouldn’t really apply would be a 1v1 in WvW, where the goal of both players is to kill the other, but why you’d be solo-roaming with a bunker, I don’t really know.
If it helps, though, Thieves are supposed to be getting reworked in the upcoming patch. Here’s the transcript regarding them from the SotG, courtesy of the GW2 Subreddit/GW2 Guru:
Thief
Reveal automatically activates on stealth ending, not just on attack; Might apply to Mesmer Stealth.
High damage to compensate lack of boon removal. Might get more boon removal in cost of tuned down damage.
Mug is too powerful; But Mug doesn’t synergize well with the whole ‘stealth game’.
Looking to increase mobility for sets other than the shortbow. Elementalists competes too well with Thief’s mobility where thief should be top mobility profession.
So more mobility, less damage, adding boon removal/boon hate, no more permastealth. It will hopefully bring them into line and make whatever anti-boon tricks they get more tolerable. We just have to hope that this all makes it in for this next patch, and isn’t spread out over a couple months.
I’m all for giving this to Warriors. ATM it’s very hard for a warrior to beat a guard if they are equally skilled.
Just because that is true doesn’t mean a change is needed: some classes and builds are counters to others others. Or are you of the perspective that any class/build you can’t beat most of the time should be nerfed? Condition damage necros and thieves and people who know how to kite well give guardians a bad day. Guards can’t away run or chase well at all.
This whole boon hate thing seems like using a hatchet where a scalpel is needed: d/d eles need a nerf and that’s it.
Boon hate was also mentioned as a good fit for warriors. Not sure which warrior tree is so deficient it needs a new theme/flavor… something to tempt them out of using greatsword for every occasion?
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I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
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I think the designers probably just didn’t really take enough time to think about what alternatives there could be to circumvent boon heavy builds, particularly with the THIEF class. Copy and pasting this from a separate post I made:
Something that occurred to me that might be a bit “more acceptable”, at least in regards to the thief class, would be a chance to ahem steal a boon, based on critical hits. It just seems obvious, and probably wouldn’t result in the current outcry on the forums about ruining boons.
When ground-targetted bone minion explosions become a thing, I will change this signature.- 2013 http://twitch.tv/alemfi/
Can’t say I didn’t see this coming. The same things are in GW1 since day one. It’s part of the complete meta that where there’s boon, there’ll be boon hate, and also why spirit weapons were the way they were back then.
This is the reason why I argued that a “boon soldier” concept is intrinsically flawed. They better make spirit weapons into a viable alternative to boons or the one-trick pony guardian will be ruined.
“… but I hate the idea ‘It may not make sense at first’.
I want it to make sense right away, then another sense later. Murkiness =/= quality "
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Because giving thieves even more burst damage makes complete sense… Guess it is a good thing I run a mostly boonless build for roaming.
Indeed. Guess they listened to the thieves complaining all the time that the one class that really gave them trouble is a well played guardian. Considering that wvw (T1 especially) is full of thief groups I dread what will happen if this is implemented.
In all honesty, WTF. As guardians we use our boons to make up for a lot of shortlfalls such as speed, mobility, and health. Taking this away from us is just going to kill the guardian class. As it is we are already a liability with condimancers everywhere ripping and converting our boons.
I hope this is a joke. kitten what’s with all the nerfs going on,this will def kill the guardian,in wvw/pve and dungeons.
dungeons…. really? First understand what is changing before posting. They are considering/implementing traits for thieves/ warriors to combat against boon heavy builds… While a bad/lazy decision imo, this has absolutely no effect on guards in dungeons.
When ground-targetted bone minion explosions become a thing, I will change this signature.- 2013 http://twitch.tv/alemfi/
I doubt it’ll be that bad. Necro’s buffed focus 5 (Spinal Shivers) is an example of balanced “boon hate” skill. Given that it’s a thief, it’ll probably only one boon at a time at the cost of initiative. As long as it’s not heart seeker, it can work out.
Oh my god, I thought I’d seen the worst of community over-reactions before. This just takes the cake.
Look at yourselves. Just look at yourselves. We have almost NO information aside from a label, that is, “boon hate”. It’s pretty much implied that it won’t be a “mechanic”, it’ll be ways for professions with little access to boons to more easily tackle boon-heavy bunkers. That is literally it, and already you’re all up in arms. You’re all ridiculous.
Oh my god, I thought I’d seen the worst of community over-reactions before. This just takes the cake.
Look at yourselves. Just look at yourselves. We have almost NO information aside from a label, that is, “boon hate”. It’s pretty much implied that it won’t be a “mechanic”, it’ll be ways for professions with little access to boons to more easily tackle boon-heavy bunkers. That is literally it, and already you’re all up in arms. You’re all ridiculous.
I hate this community.
It is sort of fun because they specifically mention it as a way to boost thief damage if they were to tone down thief damage.
Although thieves are raging about all thier specs being broken with the new reveal, when infact it won’t change much. Well except for the troll thieves. So I guess we might as well over react together.
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Oh my god, I thought I’d seen the worst of community over-reactions before. This just takes the cake.
Look at yourselves. Just look at yourselves. We have almost NO information aside from a label, that is, “boon hate”. It’s pretty much implied that it won’t be a “mechanic”, it’ll be ways for professions with little access to boons to more easily tackle boon-heavy bunkers. That is literally it, and already you’re all up in arms. You’re all ridiculous.
I hate this community.
Given Anet’s track record of nerfs for the guardian class, I’d say the community has the right to over react. Because more than likely it will be justified.
I expect boon hate to be completely untested, broken and released AS IS when the patch comes (we know anet doesn’t have a ptr or anything). I then expect Guardians and other classes who run boons to say how completely broken the mechanic is.
Then what will happen is the usual, complete silence from anet. The next month they will patch it to nerf boon hate by 5% and to compensate for guardian taking the short stick of it, they will increase guardian’s base health by 5 hp.
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Here I thought you were supposed to use conditions to hurt boon builds (protect does nothing against conditions and both eles and guards have low health pools) or bring a mesmer or necro.
Apparently those solutions interfered with the glass cannons bursting everyone down, so clearly the glass cannons need a buff to deal with the mechanic.
I’m willing to see how the idea works out, and most people in this thread are over-reacting.
Ah, but this is the GW2 community, so perhaps it is a pretty good reaction.
I imagine that it’ll be a direct counter build to boon heavy builds. As a Guard, I can already rip my way through most players rather effortlessly. First to run into the enemy zerg, downing players left and right. Once I’ve gathered enough attention, I get out, wait for a CD or two, and dive back in tearing a path through the enemy zerg again.
I think having anti-tank builds will make things interesting. Perhaps something threatening to my Guard other than the combined focus of 10 players.
Though my only concern is that that speccing Anti-tank should have a decent sized opportunity cost.
I hope this is a joke. kitten what’s with all the nerfs going on,this will def kill the guardian,in wvw/pve and dungeons.
dungeons…. really? First understand what is changing before posting. They are considering/implementing traits for thieves/ warriors to combat against boon heavy builds… While a bad/lazy decision imo, this has absolutely no effect on guards in dungeons.
Once ppl have the stigma set in there minds,everything to do with guardians will be bad.
Also it would not surprise me if npcs got a piece of that action as well in some sort of way.
but still guardians have low hp also do less dmg and stuff and now this.
I guess anet wants everyone just to play warrior or thief then.
When thieves get this it will be impossible for a guardian to stop them. Except maybe glass cannons. probably warrior also because they beat guardian in almost everything but boons is not one of them. Guardian is my least enjoyable class to use in wvw after this change it will probably be useless also.
Oh no, Guardians might not be able to mash their kitten against the keyboard and expect to survive?!
Apparently that’s what they are suppose to do. Use boons to make up for all of their weaknesses. So because of that reason, they are working as intended.
The problem is not with guardian I’d say, but its with elementalist. Its similar to what the devs said in the interview in regards to thief’s mobility. That ele is in fact more mobile than them. Which is true. So in that respect, you can also say that ele is equally as good as being a boon warrior than guardian is, while having things that guardian does not aka mobility and ways to escape combat.
So in short, the guardian class is being punished for the imbalance of ele. Which isn’t right. As noted in the interview, they are the jack of all trades class. Meaning they can do everything but can’t excel at anything in particular. What should really be done is rebalancing ele so that statement is true and not nerfing boons.
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They mentioned it’s a mechanic that will have to be specifically specced or traited into. A thief who specs into boon hate may do more damage to boon stacked targets, but will do less overall to most targets. It’s a form of specialization and counterbuilding.
This exactly. What this game direly needs is a real meta, along with true build diversity and for that we need to establish ways to build and counter build against certain tactics.
“Boon hate” doesn’t mean thieves (or whoever) will get the ability to instantly make guardians roll over and die, it means they can specialize in killing bunkers, which is completely fine by itself. It will come at a cost in other areas, most likely burst damage against non-boon stackers, which would be a reasonable trade to make and not neccessarily op.
They mentioned it’s a mechanic that will have to be specifically specced or traited into. A thief who specs into boon hate may do more damage to boon stacked targets, but will do less overall to most targets. It’s a form of specialization and counterbuilding.
This exactly. What this game direly needs is a real meta, along with true build diversity and for that we need to establish ways to build and counter build against certain tactics.
“Boon hate” doesn’t mean thieves (or whoever) will get the ability to instantly make guardians roll over and die, it means they can specialize in killing bunkers, which is completely fine by itself. It will come at a cost in other areas, most likely burst damage against non-boon stackers, which would be a reasonable trade to make and not neccessarily op.
What you are saying is true yes, but what you are essentially saying is that the thief will have the “choice” of choosing to be a boon hate build or useful against non boon oriented players.
The problem is, for guardian there isn’t much of a choice to choose to be boon oriented or not. In fact, as anet stated, the entire class revolves around keeping boons up. So the addition of boon hate is anti guardian. It would be different if guardian running boons was a optional thing, however its not. Also as some mentioned, it would make guardian giving boons to the party more of hindrance than being helpful. Since in fact you would be making them vulnerable to boon hate builds.
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Most people here should work on their language comprehension skills. What the devs in the video are saying is that they want to LOWER the base thief damage and give them a trait to increase their damage agains characters with lots of boons. As well as nerfing the mug trait. . The overall thief burst is decreased but burst agains characters with boons either stays the same or is slightly increased. Well within the assassin theme and makes the gameplay deeper. I have no problem with any of that
Apparently that’s what they are suppose to do. Use boons to make up for all of their weaknesses. So because of that reason, they are working as intended.
The problem is not with guardian I’d say, but its with elementalist. Its similar to what the devs said in the interview in regards to thief’s mobility. That ele is in fact more mobile than them. Which is true. So in that respect, you can also say that ele is equally as good as being a boon warrior than guardian is, while having things that guardian does not aka mobility and ways to escape combat.
So in short, the guardian class is being punished for the imbalance of ele. Which isn’t right. As noted in the interview, they are the jack of all trades class. Meaning they can do everything but can’t excel at anything in particular. What should really be done is rebalancing ele so that statement is true and not nerfing boons.
Oh please, most guardians I’ve seen are nigh immortal with such little effort it’s laughable. The problem with this is that they’ve taken classes, made “boons” their specialty for some bizarre reason, and then expected other classes to do just fine against them without insane crap like a 33% damage reduction on top of perpetual regen on top of reflecting damage, etc. Personally, I’m for a form of “boon hate” because it might make people think a little bit before just LOLPERMABUFF all day long and then facerolling everything they come across.
a) eat all the conditions from our allies w/ Save Yourselfs ~~~~~AND~~~~~ increase the damage from Boon H8 Builds too us.
~very well thought out~
b) have a plethora of condtions stacked on us, and kill us ~~~~~~~~ OR~~~~~~~~ Use Purity and convert them to Boons….. only to have a Boon H8 Build get heavy damage… negating our ability….
c) Have massive Conditons stacked on us…. Use Lyssa Runes…. Only to get blasted by Boon H8r’s…..
d) Give massive amounts of boons to our party because we’re getting absolutely hammered from a stealth bomb…. Only to INCREASE the damage done to our Party from Boon H8’rs ~~~~~~AND~~~~~ then be Epidemic’d by a necro.
Apparently that’s what they are suppose to do. Use boons to make up for all of their weaknesses. So because of that reason, they are working as intended.
The problem is not with guardian I’d say, but its with elementalist. Its similar to what the devs said in the interview in regards to thief’s mobility. That ele is in fact more mobile than them. Which is true. So in that respect, you can also say that ele is equally as good as being a boon warrior than guardian is, while having things that guardian does not aka mobility and ways to escape combat.
So in short, the guardian class is being punished for the imbalance of ele. Which isn’t right. As noted in the interview, they are the jack of all trades class. Meaning they can do everything but can’t excel at anything in particular. What should really be done is rebalancing ele so that statement is true and not nerfing boons.
Oh please, most guardians I’ve seen are nigh immortal with such little effort it’s laughable.
Where did you see these? the truth is in pvp the only build they can run is bunker
aka meatshield.
In wvw they can be kited crippled and nailed down without even going close i killed a guardian with my ranger when it was level 33.
My Theif , Ranger , Elementalist perform way better than my guardian in wvw.
This is not only about skill. As soon as you run in melee you get focused & spiked but what are you gonna do about it? wall of reflection? this skill is a joke in wvw.
None ever get hit by it. Full clerics and only defensive traits?. My theif can hit bunkers for 9k+ so damage mitigation don’t help that much.
Apparently that’s what they are suppose to do. Use boons to make up for all of their weaknesses. So because of that reason, they are working as intended.
The problem is not with guardian I’d say, but its with elementalist. Its similar to what the devs said in the interview in regards to thief’s mobility. That ele is in fact more mobile than them. Which is true. So in that respect, you can also say that ele is equally as good as being a boon warrior than guardian is, while having things that guardian does not aka mobility and ways to escape combat.
So in short, the guardian class is being punished for the imbalance of ele. Which isn’t right. As noted in the interview, they are the jack of all trades class. Meaning they can do everything but can’t excel at anything in particular. What should really be done is rebalancing ele so that statement is true and not nerfing boons.
Oh please, most guardians I’ve seen are nigh immortal with such little effort it’s laughable. The problem with this is that they’ve taken classes, made “boons” their specialty for some bizarre reason, and then expected other classes to do just fine against them without insane crap like a 33% damage reduction on top of perpetual regen on top of reflecting damage, etc. Personally, I’m for a form of “boon hate” because it might make people think a little bit before just LOLPERMABUFF all day long and then facerolling everything they come across.
Its great how you leave out the fact that none boon oriented classes have: More burst damage than guardian, more health, more mobility, more CC.
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Its great how you leave out the fact that none boon oriented classes have: More burst damage than guardian, more health, more mobility, more CC.
It’s also funny to note that he’s playing a Might stacking Warrior and hates Guardians. So I guess it’s only natural for such people coming into these threads to gloat and troll.
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Well, it’s one thing to say Warriors need a buff against Guardians (which, honestly, I think they do) vs Thieves (and other classes) who clearly ~DON’T~.
If Thieves, in particular, do get it, they best NOT have access to the plethora of Stealth abilities.
Thieves need more “Give & Take” options like every other class out there: Not Take ALL.
