Guild Wars 2

i love how everyone is raging about this without having any idea how it will be implemented… as a trait or signet there is no problem with it

also no one stated damage or anything so….can we all calm down until they actually give specifics or we see who gets it and how in 10 days?

Rump Buffalo.2594:

i love how everyone is raging about this without having any idea how it will be implemented… as a trait or signet there is no problem with it

also no one stated damage or anything so….can we all calm down until they actually give specifics or we see who gets it and how in 10 days?

Unfortunately, this is the GW2 community, and while it has many positive contributors, there’s an unspoken rule that incoming changes, regardless of the information available, must be greeted with hysteria and outrage. As we can clearly see by the evidence presented in this thread, the fact that Warriors and Thieves are getting a damage boost against Guardians (if they take a certain trait, most likely) is going to ruin Guardian viability in all game modes. They will be unusable in SPvP, TPvP, casual dueling, WvW solo roaming, WvW small group combat, WvW zerging, WvW keep defense, and (apparently), PvE dungeons, because of that extra 10% damage or so. Never mind the incoming nerf to the Thief’s Mug trait or the death of permastealth, or the fact that Warriors are currently considered the weakest PvP class in the game. Full boon duration bunker is also apparently the only Guardian build that exists, and other Guardian builds will be rendered useless by mere association with it, even if they only end up taking 3% extra damage from these classes.

As I stated before in this thread, I’m not completely sure this is the best approach to dealing with the issue, and I think just increasing the amount of boon removal available would be a better fix, but it’s times like these that make me wonder if the Guardian community’s gotten spoiled from the buffs and fixes in recent patches. Guardian and Mesmer are currently the only classes desirable in all major game modes, and giving two other classes the ability to do some extra damage against us if they specifically build for it isn’t going to change that in the slightest.

Anyways, I don’t really expect this post to do anything to stop the stream of angry responses, so carry on.

Soryuju.8164:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

i love how everyone is raging about this without having any idea how it will be implemented… as a trait or signet there is no problem with it

also no one stated damage or anything so….can we all calm down until they actually give specifics or we see who gets it and how in 10 days?

Unfortunately, this is the GW2 community, and while it has many positive contributors, there’s an unspoken rule that incoming changes, regardless of the information available, must be greeted with hysteria and outrage. As we can clearly see by the evidence presented in this thread, the fact that Warriors and Thieves are getting a damage boost against Guardians (if they take a certain trait, most likely) is going to ruin Guardian viability in all game modes. They will be unusable in SPvP, TPvP, casual dueling, WvW solo roaming, WvW small group combat, WvW zerging, WvW keep defense, and (apparently), PvE dungeons, because of that extra 10% damage or so. Never mind the incoming nerf to the Thief’s Mug trait or the death of permastealth, or the fact that Warriors are currently considered the weakest PvP class in the game. Full boon duration bunker is also apparently the only Guardian build that exists, and other Guardian builds will be rendered useless by mere association with it, even if they only end up taking 3% extra damage from these classes.

As I stated before in this thread, I’m not completely sure this is the best approach to dealing with the issue, and I think just increasing the amount of boon removal available would be a better fix, but it’s times like these that make me wonder if the Guardian community’s gotten spoiled from the buffs and fixes in recent patches. Guardian and Mesmer are currently the only classes desirable in all major game modes, and giving two other classes the ability to do some extra damage against us if they specifically build for it isn’t going to change that in the slightest.

Anyways, I don’t really expect this post to do anything to stop the stream of angry responses, so carry on.

Bunker builds are strong due to the nature of the gameplay mode in pvp. Which is hold a point. If they were to introduce more aggressive forms of pvp, like a death match or assault type map, then you wouldnt see bunkers often.

Aveneo.2068:

Aza.2105:

Its great how you leave out the fact that none boon oriented classes have: More burst damage than guardian, more health, more mobility, more CC.

It’s also funny to note that he’s playing a Might stacking Warrior and hates Guardians. So I guess it’s only natural for such people coming into these threads to gloat and troll.

I agree with Amins in saying that Warriors need a buff against Guardian, so yes, I do find this very fitting. It’s absolutely absurd that so many of you can just stand and tank like you do because it requires zero skill to walk around with a ton of defensive boons and passively mitigate damage while whittling down your opponent. This is what makes bunker builds so OP at the moment. If not “boon hate”, I think Guardians need a higher skill ceiling demand to keep such powerful boons up perpetually.

absurd that so many of you can just stand and tank like you do because

I suggest you to play guardian and try to “just stand and tank” like you think we are doing. This game is full of dangerous burst abilities that can easily kill a full defensive guardian in 1 or 2 hits. The key to playing a defensive build is to mitigate them.

I’d say the guardians you fought against so far have been simply better players than you are.

Also, to keep our boons up for such a long time and to “tank” like you describe, we need to give up on most of our damage. Every class can just easily walk away from us but most are just too dumb and try to fight a guardian (a class that is entirely made for melee fighting) toe-to-toe.

Why do this? If you need hate just revive someone.

We already have Necros that can stack tons of condition, thieves that can bleed players out and Mesmers that can punish anyone who simply uses a skill (and the damage comes always BEFORE the skill is used, so if you have 100 health and use a healing skill = downed)..

…so how come a “system” has to be placed where using a boon gives us something negative?

Does this means you are going to create “Condition-Love” in the future and increase the toughness and vitality of every player who suffers a condition?

Sorry Anet, but according to your own update list thieves deal the highest single-target burst damage. You want to give them even more? Perhaps you should watch the RIOT video on youtube where a thief criticals going full glass cannon for 19.8K damage. :P

Sil.4560:

I agree with Amins in saying that Warriors need a buff against Guardian, so yes, I do find this very fitting. It’s absolutely absurd that so many of you can just stand and tank like you do because it requires zero skill to walk around with a ton of defensive boons and passively mitigate damage while whittling down your opponent. This is what makes bunker builds so OP at the moment. If not “boon hate”, I think Guardians need a higher skill ceiling demand to keep such powerful boons up perpetually.

Actually warriors need a buff against everything. Higher skill ceiling? Lol do you play a thief and you weren’t able to wtfpwn a guardian? You seem a bit angry dude, what’s up? The bunker problem is not only guardian-related. Also all classes are really easy to play, but hey maybe that’s not true for everyone, probably for you this game isn’t so easy, who knows…
Tbh this “boon hate” mechanic seems quite stupid. My opinion is our beloved devs are to afraid to fix their own mistakes (like bunker issue, op specs…) so they are introducing new totally broken game mechanics like this boon hate kitten. Ofc this will make the game even worse. I suppose they will realize too late how bad the idea is and, again, they will be afraid to change it.
Dev 1: “ kitten i can’t kill this kittening bunker guardian with my thief, i’ve even broken my #2 button during that fight!”
Dev 2: “ye i play a thief too. We should introduce a new boon hate mechanic so other players will have no chance even when bunker specced ahah”
Dev 1: “c0000l! Shouldn’t we test it before?”
Dev 2: “nah we are too busy working on the new event, no need to balance things. Also i don’t want thief players to qq too much”

Iavra.8510:

I suggest you to play guardian and try to “just stand and tank” like you think we are doing. This game is full of dangerous burst abilities that can easily kill a full defensive guardian in 1 or 2 hits. The key to playing a defensive build is to mitigate them.

Guardian as a class is very, very forgiving of mistakes and while it’s true there are huge burst dangers in many dungeons that would take out most any class, most of the rest of the content can simply be facerolled with the incredibly easy-to-use defenses Guardians are given.

I’d say the guardians you fought against so far have been simply better players than you are.

Oh look, a pompous “L2P” argument.

I play mostly WvW. I have never lost a 1v1, Guardians included. Anyone can either be outmaneuvered, outsmarted, or both, so perhaps you should actually stop to ask if they actually beat me or not before prattling off with such trash. What I did find annoying is the amount of dumb mistakes their defenses allowed them to get away with.

I don’t have time for people who jump immediately to some arbitrary measure of player skill as defined by whatever silly logic you people use. This “L2P” crap is exceedingly tiresome and I see it in nearly every thread used as some sad excuse for an argument.

Also, to keep our boons up for such a long time and to “tank” like you describe, we need to give up on most of our damage. Every class can just easily walk away from us but most are just too dumb and try to fight a guardian (a class that is entirely made for melee fighting) toe-to-toe.

The problem is that, currently, bunker builds tend to rule the metagame by outlasting most other builds in an ordinary fight. This is obviously why they are working to correct this.

Fjandi.2516:

Actually warriors need a buff against everything. Higher skill ceiling? Lol do you play a thief and you weren’t able to wtfpwn a guardian?

No, I don’t roll a thief.

You seem a bit angry dude, what’s up? The bunker problem is not only guardian-related. Also all classes are really easy to play, but hey maybe that’s not true for everyone, probably for you this game isn’t so easy, who knows…

Yes, I’d agree the bunker problem isn’t just Guardian related. Eles have already been looked at to that degree, but this is the first step towards resolving the issue regarding this class that Anet has ever seemed to show an interest in. Even if “boon hate” were 5% per boon, which it probably won’t be because Anet is afraid of big boosts, SIX BOONS (30%) worth of increased damage still doesn’t equal the 33% reduction from constant Protection. Seriously.

And oh look, another “L2P” argument. Can’t any of you actually have a discussion without dragging this tired crap into it? Seriously, if some backhanded “you aren’t good at the game” comment is all you have to offer without actually playing with or against me, you have nothing to contribute.

For all of you complaining that is stupid that Guardians can “lol permabuff” and be appear to be invincible, I would like to link for you this post on how Anet feels the Guardian class should work: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012#post999247

Specifically:

The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

Boon Hate goes against this philosophy 100%. Boon hate basically punishes us for what we are designed to do. THIS is why I am against the mechanic.

This is the same post that implies that Warriors are good with a “sturdy body” and should have to “ask for help” to remove enemy conditions, while going through boons with “raw force”, all being things which severely hinder this class in its current competitive state. Anet’s balance philosophies are questionable at best. I’d rather see them contradict their vague statements about how classes are supposed to operate and make a more balanced game than leave things broken.

Sil.4560:

This is the same post that implies that Warriors are good with a “sturdy body” and should have to “ask for help” to remove enemy conditions, while going through boons with “raw force”, all being things which severely hinder this class in its current competitive state. Anet’s balance philosophies are questionable at best. I’d rather see them contradict their vague statements about how classes are supposed to operate and make a more balanced game than leave things broken.

Basically what I am understanding from your post, is that Warriors are broken, so instead of fixing warriors to embody the vision Anet has for them, nerf other classes down to the warriors broken state. This sounds worse to me than just fixing warriors.

Sil, so basically what you are saying is that guardian is a forgiving class because the players you have seen go bunker aka tank. If you are saying that you seen some glass cannon spec guardian be able to face roll and rely on its op defense then you aren’t speaking the truth.

Mostly all guardians play a bunker type. Because the other builds lead to a quick death due to " low levels of innate health." A bunker build is a tank build, tank builds are able to survive a long time. Perhaps if you made a warrior bunker build instead of making a dps build expecting the results of a bunker, then your perspective would change.

Because I’m sure that is the issue, you aren’t running a high toughness, vitality, defensive build. But you are running a glass cannon expecting to be able to take punishment like a bunker.

LordGustoff.3752:

Basically what I am understanding from your post, is that Warriors are broken, so instead of fixing warriors to embody the vision Anet has for them, nerf other classes down to the warriors broken state. This sounds worse to me than just fixing warriors.

Oh, no way, it’s definitely easier and more effective to bring one up to par with others than to correct everything else. But sometimes there are issues on both sides that need looked at. If not some sort of boon hate, how do you propose warriors be better able to deal with the absurd brick wall that is the current guardian metagame? The “raw force” being used to go through boons is obviously not working.

Aza.2105:

Perhaps if you made a warrior bunker build instead of making a dps build expecting the results of a bunker, then your perspective would change.

Because I’m sure that is the issue, you aren’t running a high toughness, vitality, defensive build. But you are running a glass cannon expecting to be able to take punishment like a bunker.

No, I don’t run glass, but thanks anyway for spewing blatantly false information about what I expect from my character and build. Either way, a bunker warrior may as well have just rolled guardian, so that’s a moot point.

Sil.4560:

This is the same post that implies that Warriors are good with a “sturdy body” and should have to “ask for help” to remove enemy conditions, while going through boons with “raw force”, all being things which severely hinder this class in its current competitive state.

To counterpoint this… I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that each class needs to rely on another class for something. In my experience with Guardian, every little point spent in damage comes at a great cost to survive-ability. So, in a competitive setting I have to spec for survive-ability, or I’m basically a dead body on the ground. Which means, for instance in WvW I can survive most encounters but if I want that kill I have to rely on running with a DPSer for the burst damage to get it…. which I find perfectly acceptable. This is supposed to be a cooperative game after all. Whether or not people actually play with that mindset (which I would be willing to bet for the most part is not the case) is another issue altogether.

So in regards to the weaknesses you point out for the warrior as making them weak in competitive setting – sure it makes them weak if they try to run it alone, just like I am weak as a guardian running alone. If the warrior were for instance to run with a Guardian whose great at condition removal, or a Mesmer who great at ripping boons off an enemy, those weaknesses become much less of an issue. Which makes sense to me, given a cooperative setting.

The problem is, most other classes don’t have that drawback. Saying, “You get screwed by conditions” is just a HUGE mistake in practice, especially in a PvP setting where it’s easily abused and pretty much every other class has better sustain. As far as going solo, if both players are solo, the guardian and other more “sustain” classes obviously have an advantage with very little effort. It’s just the way this game’s combat works, and that needs fixed.

Personally I hate having to rely on random people for anything. Almost nobody is going to intentionally cure your chill and/or cripple and healing others is pretty much a joke. Not to mention that in 1v1, classes should have balanced alternatives to fight one another, not this rock-paper-scissors crap.

Personally I hate having to rely on random people for anything.

Not to mention that in 1v1, classes should have balanced alternatives to fight one another

Here lies your fundamental problem. I have to admit, i am a huge fan of 1v1’s but in it’s core, GW2 is balanced for group combat. If you have to rely on “random people” that’s either because your group is bad or it doesn’t exist at all. I would suggest you find a good coordinated group that uses TS3 or the like for communication and you will see a huge difference in your playing results.

When ArenaNet decides to introduce a duel-function, that’s the moment they really have to balance the classes for it.

/edit: And i am intentionally curing my groups conditions because that’s part of my role as a supporter.

Sil.4560:

The problem is, most other classes don’t have that drawback. Saying, “You get screwed by conditions” is just a HUGE mistake in practice, especially in a PvP setting where it’s easily abused and pretty much every other class has better sustain. As far as going solo, if both players are solo, the guardian and other more “sustain” classes obviously have an advantage with very little effort. It’s just the way this game’s combat works, and that needs fixed.

Personally I hate having to rely on random people for anything. Almost nobody is going to intentionally cure your chill and/or cripple and healing others is pretty much a joke. Not to mention that in 1v1, classes should have balanced alternatives to fight one another, not this rock-paper-scissors crap.

That’s intended according to Anet, did you know that they gave warrior a large hp pool to compensate for their lack of condition removal skills? Its suppose to be their weakness and the moment that changes then they will become overpowered. Just as if Guardian had mobility and a large hp pool they would be overpowered.

And by no means am I saying Anet’s balancing strategy is working, there will always be issues. However, you championing a guardian nerf while negating how it will effect the game is wrong. If they gave warrior’s ways to remove conditions on par with lets say guardian, then they would have to lower their total health pool as well. If they did that then I’d say it would be fair in terms of how they have the game set up now.

Iavra.8510:

\Here lies your fundamental problem. I have to admit, i am a huge fan of 1v1’s but in it’s core, GW2 is balanced for group combat. If you have to rely on “random people” that’s either because your group is bad or it doesn’t exist at all. I would suggest you find a good coordinated group that uses TS3 or the like for communication and you will see a huge difference in your playing results.

I’m primarily talking about dungeons. I’m rarely in the mood to listen to people prattle in voice chat, so I opt not to use it most days and my guild isn’t frequently on it either. We perform just fine, however not everyone is on at the same times and on occasion PUGs are necessary. I take pride in being the lone survivor or person to carry us through a difficult fight if need be. I also find that if players absolutely have to rely on voice chat to be effective, they aren’t very good players to begin with and are using it as a crutch to compensate for their lack of awareness.

Further, trying to argue that a game cannot be balanced for both group combat and single combat seems like a lazy copout and an excuse to hide behind guardians’ absurd tanking advantage in the current system.

Aza.2105:

That’s intended according to Anet, did you know that they gave warrior a large hp pool to compensate for their lack of condition removal skills? Its suppose to be their weakness and the moment that changes then they will become overpowered. Just as if Guardian had mobility and a large hp pool they would be overpowered.

A large initial HP pool is inherently inferior to the ability to easily sustain a smaller HP pool. Case in point, D/D Ele. You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about.

And by no means am I saying Anet’s balancing strategy is working, there will always be issues. However, you championing a guardian nerf while negating how it will effect the game is wrong. If they gave warrior’s ways to remove conditions on par with lets say guardian, then they would have to lower their total health pool as well. If they did that then I’d say it would be fair in terms of how they have the game set up now.

It doesn’t need to be “on par” in that particular area, however conditions such as chill should not immediately shut most warriors down and as such some balancing is needed. Insisting that I made such a claim that warriors need to have equal defensive capabilities to guardians is a blatant misrepresentation of my post.

Sil.4560:

Iavra.8510:

\Here lies your fundamental problem. I have to admit, i am a huge fan of 1v1’s but in it’s core, GW2 is balanced for group combat. If you have to rely on “random people” that’s either because your group is bad or it doesn’t exist at all. I would suggest you find a good coordinated group that uses TS3 or the like for communication and you will see a huge difference in your playing results.

I’m primarily talking about dungeons. I’m rarely in the mood to listen to people prattle in voice chat, so I opt not to use it most days and my guild isn’t frequently on it either. We perform just fine, however not everyone is on at the same times and on occasion PUGs are necessary. I take pride in being the lone survivor or person to carry us through a difficult fight if need be. I also find that if players absolutely have to rely on voice chat to be effective, they aren’t very good players to begin with and are using it as a crutch to compensate for their lack of awareness.

Further, trying to argue that a game cannot be balanced for both group combat and single combat seems like a lazy copout and an excuse to hide behind guardians’ absurd tanking advantage in the current system.

Aza.2105:

That’s intended according to Anet, did you know that they gave warrior a large hp pool to compensate for their lack of condition removal skills? Its suppose to be their weakness and the moment that changes then they will become overpowered. Just as if Guardian had mobility and a large hp pool they would be overpowered.

A large initial HP pool is inherently inferior to the ability to easily sustain a smaller HP pool. Case in point, D/D Ele. You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about.

And by no means am I saying Anet’s balancing strategy is working, there will always be issues. However, you championing a guardian nerf while negating how it will effect the game is wrong. If they gave warrior’s ways to remove conditions on par with lets say guardian, then they would have to lower their total health pool as well. If they did that then I’d say it would be fair in terms of how they have the game set up now.

It doesn’t need to be “on par” in that particular area, however conditions such as chill should not immediately shut most warriors down and as such some balancing is needed. Insisting that I made such a claim that warriors need to have equal defensive capabilities to guardians is a blatant misrepresentation of my post.

I have no idea what I’m talking about? You act as if I’m making it up. So tell that to anet, I don’t make the game man. In case you haven’t figured out, they gave a detailed description of the each classes role and how they tried to balance them.

You are saying that you don’t want to be on par with guardian, yet you are on the guardian forum section talking about how guardian is much better than warrior etc. How they are essentially easy mode. So if its true that "Oh please, most guardians I’ve seen are nigh immortal with such little effort it’s laughable. " Then perhaps your problem lies in the fact that you aren’t skill enough to play warrior and you should consider another class.

Could the guardian forum please stop from turning into the thief section, where we QQ about every single nerf or counter we get?
Both bunker elementalists and bunker guardians rely heavily on boons and are almost invincible 1v1. Having characters that will be stronger against boons in a sense nerfs those cookie-cutter specs and opens up for new builds and ways of thinking.
Why do people actually WANT their class to be OP?
Is it that much fun winning a fight rather than actually having a good fight?

This wont render guardians useless and it if does, it will be balanced.
I can’t remember a time where i lost a 1v1 against a thief using the 0/0/30/20/20 build. That is not balanced guys. Of course the thief should stand a chance. But kitten me for wanting proper balance, right? I should enjoy being unstoppable against certain classes.
Mesmers are definitely the strongest counter to a guardian, and from the sound of it they wont fill this new boon-hate role, so everything is fine! (Mesmers are strong against everyone, but thats not a discussion for the guardian section ^^)

The real question everyone is wondering if it this is taking us down the wrong road for pvp/wvw. What if they aloud us to tech to kill thieves that we do way more damage if they are stealthed or just as they are coming out of stealth,allow us to tech for more damage against a mesmer that increases depeinding on the amount of illusions they have out,same for necro’s minions, and that is basically what they are doing to guardians. They are taking something that we RELY on and our one clear advantage and making it a weakness… It is really hard to see what the devs are thinking…

Amins.3710:

Hopefully…

I mean, heaven forbid the thief class actually have to spec for something… you know… give and take…

Hmm, Glass Cannon + best Escapability/Survivability (ie Stealth, heals ons stealth, condition removal on stealth, might on stealth, regen on stealth, stun break on stealth)…

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. A Thief who has all of those traits has to go 30 deep into Shadow Arts which is the TOUGHNESS traitline, I’d hardly call that a glass cannon build, and there is no such thing as stunbreak on stealth, lmao…

Not to mention the fact that Thieves don’t have the best mobility (Ele’s have that) and stealth is useless in PvP point defence.

Next time roll a Thief before exagetating the crap out of the classes lackluster abilities.

Sil, it is true, Guardians have the option to recover from making “dumb mistakes” like jumping in the middle of an enemy zerg so they can distract and scatter the enemy and getting out alive… and yeah, a “higher skill ceiling” would be good.

You know what would also go very nice with that “higher skill ceiling” and consequent inability to do “dumb mistakes”?

19k crits. I’d love to land those on a thief, the tears would be delicious.

Now, since I don’t play a bunker guardian and rely more on active evasion than boons for mitigating damage, this change doesn’t concern me as much, but I agree that the idea of turning boons into a liability is inherently a bad one, simple because players have no way of removing boons. Conditions are a danger but every class has a way to deal with those. How do you deal with allies giving you boons and essentially stacking vulnerability on you? You can’t. Which makes the boon hate idea broken from the get-go.
Especially in WvW where you have large amounts of players simply using their skills and landing boons on allies. Not bunker players, just normal skill usage. Resulting in non-removable vulnerability stacks. Ridiculous.

Boon-Hate is an obvious counter-reaction to the famous bunker-ele build. The problem the devs didn’t realize is that other proffessions are also affected by this (guardian mentioned) Would be so much easier to decrease heal or boon-duration on ele.
Mabye bunkers start to play with symbols again, instead of shouts.
kitteno

Gaudrath.6725:

19k crits. I’d love to land those on a thief, the tears would be delicious.

I’m not sure whether you’re talking about 100B maybe? I mean, that attack roots you and is pretty easy to avoid, all things considered, haha.

…Resulting in non-removable vulnerability stacks. Ridiculous.

I was kind of thinking that “boon hate” would be as temporary as some other boon, meaning that with skill you could possibly just avoid most of the duration of the danger. Who knows what they actually wanna do though…

Sil.4560:

Gaudrath.6725:

19k crits. I’d love to land those on a thief, the tears would be delicious.

I’m not sure whether you’re talking about 100B maybe? I mean, that attack roots you and is pretty easy to avoid, all things considered, haha.

…Resulting in non-removable vulnerability stacks. Ridiculous.

I was kind of thinking that “boon hate” would be as temporary as some other boon, meaning that with skill you could possibly just avoid most of the duration of the danger. Who knows what they actually wanna do though…

My first point is that Guardians, being tough by design, are indeed more forgiving when it comes to making a mistake (though in WvW that really often isn’t the case), but they also do not have advantages other more frail classes have, like incredible burst damage.
I spec for damage on my guard and all I can say is that I really don’t have nearly as much room to make mistakes as a bunker build guard. But then again, a bunker build will have a hard time killing anything (froth-mouthed players who disregard stuff like retaliation not included).

I also mained an ele, and while I could do all the stuff you see in the videos, what most of them don’t show is how easily you can get steamrolled if you just make one mistake.

So it balances out in the end. More survivability = less lethality.

If boon hate is a new skill with a cooldown and everything, it might work. Judging from their track record, I think this will not be the case, instead I think it will be something you trait for.

They just need something to strike the balance so that defense of this sort doesn’t have such an immense advantage against the offense in a direct encounter. I don’t really consider running away or calling a “draw” to be conclusive; I feel that two players should be able to engage and have a fight to the death where, given equal skill, class balance would provide an even chance of winning.

As for WvW, I wouldn’t worry about boon hate. It will likely be in a trait line that completely offsets any decent thief build. Thieves will be even more useless after the stealth nerf anyway.

Aza.2105:

Then you shouldn’t be playing guild wars 2 or any game for that matter. First off gw2 isn’t a 1v1 game, its a group game. Second its not street fighter 4 and even in street fighter 4 there are bottom and top tier characters. And realize street fighter 4 doesn’t even have gear, runes etc and it still can’t achieve perfect balance. So how do you expect gw2 to achieve this?

“Don’t play GW2 or other games; give up on balance because of unrelated games” is not an argument. Seems you forgot to include the standard “L2P”, “you suck”, or other such irrelevant and presumptuous claim this time though.

The solution isn’t to “give up” on balance as you apparently imply. Street Fighter doesn’t have constant patches and a dedicated balance team, whereas this game does. GW2 has time and effort being poured into it daily and with enough fine tuning, we can most certainly have better balance than we have now.

Now if you’re done being a troll, I don’t have an interest in speaking to you because I find your comments lacking in substance.

Personally BOON HATE is a terrible idea. Not only is it going to basically get rid of competitive play in WvW (where boon spiking happens all the time), but destroy the Guardian. I really enjoy the Guardian compared to the Engineer. Now both those professions are going to be ruined. About 70% of all Engineers run a HGH build which is stacking might……….guess they are going to go extinct if they implement that.

Goloith.6349:

Personally BOON HATE is a terrible idea. Not only is it going to basically get rid of competitive play in WvW (where boon spiking happens all the time), but destroy the Guardian. I really enjoy the Guardian compared to the Engineer. Now both those professions are going to be ruined. About 70% of all Engineers run a HGH build which is stacking might……….guess they are going to go extinct if they implement that.

Boon hate is a great idea and is needed. Boon meta is out of control and needs something to keep it in check. Ever see the healway build on this board? Almost every boon for 20 sec on 28 sec effective CD, and it kills people through perma retaliation. Not to mention all the condi->boons you get from PoV. Guardian is a boon kitten right now.

Null field is arguably the most powerful boon hate skill in the game, and no one is complaining about how it’s ruining competitive WvW. Well of corruption is essentially the same thing. Again, no complaints.

Boon hate already exists with the mesmer and necro and the guardian is still functioning fine as a top tier profession. And no, 2 professions are not enough to keep boons in-line. Granted, these new skills need to be balanced, but Anet has shown that it is possible (look at necro focus 5 for a good boon hate skill).

Stop being so melodramatic.

pretty funny I say. Now I can see in my chat box: “That stupid guardian got me killed because he stacked all those boons on me.” Now I can run around applying my symbols just to tick others off lol. Heck, we should get a grim reaper outfit for that purpose.

What would be the role of AH guardians now? Kinda pointless if the extra healing is simply cancelled out by the extra damage dealt by boot hate.

I think the mechanic should just be that it ignores the protection boon instead of penalizing every boon. It defeats the purpose of guardians.

They should have just made a separate game for PvP. “GW2:VS” This whole PVP balance thing is just getting ridiculous.

I think boon hate is a bad idea because it introduces the following two scenarios to the game:

• My ally places 1+ boons on me. I’m mad at my ally because he/she is now causing me to take more damage from my foe(s).
• My ally removes 1+ boons from my foe(s). I’m mad at my ally because he/she is now causing me to do less damage to my foe(s).

You applying boons to allies and removing boons from foes should not be negatives for you and/or your allies.

How ridiculous would it be to be in World vs World, Structured PvP, or even PvE and people are yelling at their allies to stop applying/removing boons because it’s hurting them?

“Mesmers and Necros, stop removing enemy boons!”
“Warriors & Guardians, don’t use your shouts!”
“Elementalists! Don’t take Elemental Attunement or stop swapping attunements!”

It’s silly.

Furthermore, boon hate is allowing people to do nothing but “make a build” to counter other people who “make a build” but also “use 1+ skill(s)” to gain their boons. I think providing more access to active ways of performing boon removal would be a much better solution.

Currently, the only classes with reliable boon removal are Sword Thieves, Mesmers, and Necromancers. Guardian can trait to remove 1 every 20 seconds (don’t know why that cooldown is so long) when they inflict burning.

That’s only 4 classes and really the Guardian doesn’t truly count and for Thief they are forced to take a particular weapon (main-hand sword).

Necromancer and Mesmer are the reliable ones since they have both utilities as well as weapon skills for boon removal/conversion/theft.

I don’t think it would hurt to give each other class access to at least 1 anti-boon utility.

If we start to have people need to take a particular trait in their build to counter another build we’re going to take steps towards “build wars” as GW1 became. I would prefer we avoided that and aimed more towards “skill wars”.

Asumita.2174:

What would be the role of AH guardians now? Kinda pointless if the extra healing is simply cancelled out by the extra damage dealt by boot hate.

The extra healing from AH will almost always outpace any form of boon hate. Hammer, shouts, empowering might, vigor will be up faster than the cd on your opponents boon hate skill. Unless you’re getting focused by a lot of people. Then you’ll die, as you should. AH isn’t and shouldn’t be a god mode spec.

Sebrent.3625:

I think boon hate is a bad idea because it introduces the following two scenarios to the game:

• My ally places 1+ boons on me. I’m mad at my ally because he/she is now causing me to take more damage from my foe(s).
• My ally removes 1+ boons from my foe(s). I’m mad at my ally because he/she is now causing me to do less damage to my foe(s).

You applying boons to allies and removing boons from foes should not be negatives for you and/or your allies.

How ridiculous would it be to be in World vs World, Structured PvP, or even PvE and people are yelling at their allies to stop applying/removing boons because it’s hurting them?

“Mesmers and Necros, stop removing enemy boons!”
“Warriors & Guardians, don’t use your shouts!”
“Elementalists! Don’t take Elemental Attunement or stop swapping attunements!”

It’s silly.

Your hypothetical is unrealistic as well as a hyperbole. People are acting like boon hate skills will be the next Mug+Backstab spike meta.

Boon hate existed and gw1, ya know.

station.6421:

Goloith.6349:

Personally BOON HATE is a terrible idea. Not only is it going to basically get rid of competitive play in WvW (where boon spiking happens all the time), but destroy the Guardian. I really enjoy the Guardian compared to the Engineer. Now both those professions are going to be ruined. About 70% of all Engineers run a HGH build which is stacking might……….guess they are going to go extinct if they implement that.

Boon hate is a great idea and is needed. Boon meta is out of control and needs something to keep it in check. Ever see the healway build on this board? Almost every boon for 20 sec on 28 sec effective CD, and it kills people through perma retaliation. Not to mention all the condi->boons you get from PoV. Guardian is a boon kitten right now.

Null field is arguably the most powerful boon hate skill in the game, and no one is complaining about how it’s ruining competitive WvW. Well of corruption is essentially the same thing. Again, no complaints.

Boon hate already exists with the mesmer and necro and the guardian is still functioning fine as a top tier profession. And no, 2 professions are not enough to keep boons in-line. Granted, these new skills need to be balanced, but Anet has shown that it is possible (look at necro focus 5 for a good boon hate skill).

Stop being so melodramatic.

For one Null field does not actually damage the player, that’s why it isn’t full-fledge boon hate. Also Well of corruption is the only true boon hate in the game and that’s alright because it’s the Necro.

Almost every boon for 20 sec on 28 sec effective CD

Someone seems to be exaggerating a bit…If you are speaking of SY! it’s on a 48s cd (traited) and gives boons for 16s with 60% boon duration without food. If anything needs to be changed it’s this one skill as boon hate will really hurt all guardians who are not using it.

If somebody still hasn’t get it. The class DEPENDS on boons to be actually competitive. It’s what we are designed for and that mechanic effectively turns our only advantage to a heavy disadvantage not only for us but for all of our party members.

Guess i will just play my thief or level my mesmer to 80 then…it’s not as if i wasted a whole month getting an ascended amulet for a character whose class will be rendered useless.

Iavra.8510:

Almost every boon for 20 sec on 28 sec effective CD

Someone seems to be exaggerating a bit…If you are speaking of SY! it’s on a 48s cd (traited) and gives boons for 16s with 60% boon duration without food. If anything needs to be changed it’s this one skill as boon hate will really hurt all guardians who are not using it.

Except I’m not exaggerating. If giver’s/snowflake gear eta: and superior rune of sacntuary wasn’t bugged, it’s entirely possible to get 100% boon duration with food, which gives every boon on SY! a 20 second duration. After the boons expire, that only leaves SY! with a 28 second wait time till you can use it again. Which happens a lot, as boons aren’t stripped very often. But you’re right in that my math is wrong, as the current healway doesn’t use giver’s, so it’d be 18 duration/30 second cd.

If giver’s/snowflake gear wasn’t bugged, it’s entirely possible to get 100% boon duration with food

It also would leave the guardian with virtually no power at all, so what?

I watched the video. From the sounds of things, Boon Hate is primarly to allow Thieves to damage bunker build characters without requiring a large amount of raw damage for the attack. Basically, ANet is planning a nerf to the Thief’s raw damage to make burst damage less of a gimmick. That’s not to say the Thief won’t have burst damage, but it ultimately impacts bunker builds more and DPS builds less. Characters that focus in damage over health or armor will survive longer against a Thief than before, and resistant characters will die a little quicker. It also appears they are planning this for the Elementalist and Warrior.

Thieves are also getting a mobility boost soon as the developers agreed with the interviewers that the Shortbow is the best form of mobility. However, they will receive a huge nerf. When Stealth ends, the Thief will get the Revealed debuff. It doesn’t matter how it ends, even naturally, the Thief will get the debuff. Thieves will no longer be able to spam Stealth making it much more difficult to hide from combat, but Thieves will be able to move and evade combat much easier. We can rejoice over this at least. Thieves will be much easier to target than before.

I don’t think Boon Hate is a bad thing. Consider it much more similar to armor ignoring effects but instead boosts damage to get around boons like Protection. As long as the Thief doesn’t get something rediculous like a 10 point skill that adds 3% damage against the target for each boon the target has I’ll be alright with the change.

I don’t see why they’d do this to nerf guard. I’ve yet to meet a guard I couldn’t kill on my mes. Like others said, it’s probably DD Elem related.

I don’t really know about the other classes but I play a warrior as a main. Guardians and D/D Eles are my worst enemy. It would be nice to have a little bit of an edge against these guys. I don’t want to be able to kill them with impunity, I just want to be at least competitive against these 2.

If done properly this boon hate will be a good thing. it could also be a double edge sword cause my warrior can have more boons than a many guardians at times.

As someone who mains guardian, in the pursuit of balance, I want to suggest this counter trait to Boon Hate:

Trait: True Sight
Effect: Can at the very least see (if not also target) enemies who are in stealth.

If someone is going to ROFLstomp me just because I rolled a guardian, I want to at least be able to see it coming.

LordGustoff.3752:

As someone who mains guardian, in the pursuit of balance, I want to suggest this counter trait to Boon Hate:

Trait: True Sight
Effect: Can at the very least see (if not also target) enemies who are in stealth.

If someone is going to ROFLstomp me just because I rolled a guardian, I want to at least be able to see it coming.

Actually this is a good idea, people complain about stealth a lot more than they do about boons.

Boon Hate? No No No No No NO
Boon Stealing (aka mesmer arcane thievery) Yes

Why
In the official description (quoted at beginning of thread) BOONS are directly mentioned for Guardians, so in my eyes Boon hate= Guardian Hate (Yes i know other professions get boons but that word does not get mentioned in their official description)

Boons are Beneficial (by definition of the word) Yet it will be more damaging to have these “Boons”
Stealing Boons would be far better: Those boons can be taken and used by the enemy against us it would lead to better gameplay

The dev’s want Build diversity – yet they are (seemingly) making a build unviable
On that thought chain isn’t that supposed to be the definition of a ‘bunker’ build?
Bunkers are meant to be tough.
If the reason is to do with pvp capture points then perhaps the mechanic of how this works should be looked at (i dont spvp so cant comment on this)
I also believe this is just a ‘quick’ fix – instead of looking at all the individual skills boons duration/frequency/stacking which would take longer.

i wvw a fair bit so here’s just two of my experiences:
A thief has literally 4 hit me = downed = dead (with boon hate that will now be 2 hits)
A thief and cofusion mesmer killed me in a few minutes (i was unable to do anything with all the perma stacks of confusion, and with the clones and thief pew pewing = dead)
Both of these two examples involve a thief (and they’re supposed to be getting boon hate)

Under Web.2497:

Boon Hate? No No No No No NO
Boon Stealing (aka mesmer arcane thievery) Yes

Sadly thieves already have this as a trait option. (Edit: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft)

I think it is very interesting that Anet isn’t talking about buffing this trait to steal more boons or something like that, instead they just are going to give thieves and warriors, two classes who are already bursty, more damage.

Boon hate already exists – Spinal Shivers does more damage to people per boon they have, up to 3. It’s probably a good baseline for what the Devs will propegate to other classes (Theives at the loss of some raw burst DPS, warriors to enhance a less popular trait line).

Do guardians live in mortal fear of Necros?

I know we stay aware of Necros for their boon-to-condition conversion, but more versions of Spinal Shivers? Is that what all the caterwauling is about?

purpleskies.3274:

I think it is very interesting that Anet isn’t talking about buffing this trait to steal more boons or something like that, instead they just are going to give thieves and warriors, two classes who are already bursty, more damage.

Aside from the minor detail the SPECIFICALLY SAID thieves would lose raw burst damage when they get boon hate because their burst is so high to offset their lack of boon penetration abilities.

And if the warrior boon hate is put in a line where it completely fails to synergize with their unrelenting reliance on greatsword, maybe we’ll actually see a warrior or two that has some other weapon equipped… Wouldn’t that be novel?

Under Web.2497:

A thief has literally 4 hit me = downed = dead (with boon hate that will now be 2 hits)

For those actually watching the interview, you’ll see that thieves without boon hate are going to hit a little less hard in general, and that the lynchpin of your 4-hit-and-down experience, mug, is on the chopping block.

Mesmers were not specifically mentioned as getting additional boon hate BTW.