Guild Wars 2

I may be wrong but it seems that increased burning duration is detrimental to guardians. The way I understand it the duration takes the same damage and spreads it out over a longer period of time. This is great to keep the target burning but more often then not it is cleansed away long before it gets to do anything. So in essence 4000 burn damage over 4 seconds (1000/sec) is so much better then 4000 burn damage over 8 seconds (500/sec) assuming you could buff it to 100% burn duration. Cleansing the burn kills the damage and you do less damage in the end. Things like the new torch skill that increases duration by 20% and reduces skills by 20% seems like a bit of a nerf to torch as well as the buff. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Nope, you got it wrong. The damage done by burning always stays the same per tick, depending on your condition damage. If you have enough burning duration to get an extra second of it (but a whole second!), then you get another tick from it. However, any additional duration is rather worthless if you don’t reach the full-second interval. It just helps for Fiery Wrath.

Burning ticks per second, like every other damaging condition, and the damage per second is based only on your condition damage, not the length of the burn. If you have a burn that lasts for 5 seconds and deals 500 damage per second, and then increase the duration of the burn by 20%, it’s still going to do 500 damage per second. The total damage of the burn will just rise from 2500 to 3000.

Oh ok, the tooltips must not be working correctly then for the damage portion. I have not noticed a change. Everything I seem to read online is vague or inconclusive! Thanks for clearing that up.

Reymis.2158:

Oh ok, the tooltips must not be working correctly then for the damage portion. I have not noticed a change. Everything I seem to read online is vague or inconclusive! Thanks for clearing that up.

A lot of, if not all traits / runes that boost a specific condition or boon (rather than granting general condition or boon duration) don’t properly update tooltips. So you’ll be getting more duration, and thus more damage, than the tooltip indicates.

CptAurellian.9537:

Nope, you got it wrong. The damage done by burning always stays the same per tick, depending on your condition damage. If you have enough burning duration to get an extra second of it (but a whole second!), then you get another tick from it. However, any additional duration is rather worthless if you don’t reach the full-second interval. It just helps for Fiery Wrath.

From what I understand, the newly updated torch trait in radiance (radiant fire), does not even extend the burning duration long enough to get even one extra damage tick? The default duration is so short that the 20% buff from the trait to duration does absolutely nothing but give an almost unnoticeable increase to the duration of burning…maybe a slight favor to fiery wrath and radiant power due to the duration and reduced cool down on the already low cool down of torch skills.

Well, Radiant Fire and 10 points in Zeal gives you 97.5% burning uptime in an AoE using Zealot’s Flame alone, which is pretty nice if you ask me.

…unsure how you get 97.5% burning from 10 points in zeal (10% longer conditions) and Radiant Fire (20% longer burns).

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean?

Back to the OP, I agree that burning does not gain as much benefit from condition duration as the damage only happens on a full second tick.

Condition damage and shorter burns (read procs from VoJ or burn on blocks) will contribute to our DPS in a great way, but it is mostly unnoticed by the player.

Pretty much add an extra 300-500 damage ontop of our auto attack chain, or any skill that hits 4-5 times and that is what VoJ burning is doing for us.

Also if you take burn on block with protectors strike, every time you block you do damage, add that 300-500 burn on the block and you have a nice hefty increase to the damage on each of those skills.

Keep in mind, condition damage goes through armor, so against more protective enemies (bunkers, bosses, or while low level in high level areas) you can maintain some damage output by supplementing burning to your physical attacks.

Burning is supplemental, not our primary form of damage.

maybe i’m wrong but you can get up to 70% burning duration… which mean at least 1 or 2 seconds and, so, 1-2 more ticks… not bad at all….

on a 6 second burn, an increase of 70% will gain 4.2 seconds, round off the .2 and you get 10 seconds of burning.

A 1 second burn would gain 0.7 seconds of burning, which will not be seen as a tick of damage until it clears whole number marker.

To make it complicated though, the fractions of a second left as remainders add up if you apply them quickly.

so if I do 0.5 seconds of burning on one skill and 0.5 on another, I will get 1 second of burning, producing a tick of damage.

So in quick succession, you may see an extra tick of burning or two with multi hit attacks and procing VoJ.

On our burning application abilities, you will get maybe 2-4 more ticks of damage with burning.

Which is nice as a overall damage number (2-4 more ticks typically is about 700-1400 more damge). But you have to wait 2-4 more seconds to see that damage.

Burning duration does not provide us with any useful burst, nor does it supply us with DPS.

In my opinion, the best reason to take burning duration is to prolong the times the target has a condition and a burn on it to make use of Fiery Wrath and Radiant power.

If we could find a way to maintain a burn on a target consistently with little to no gaps between cooldowns, maybe burning duration would be good then.

This drives me crazy, because the Devs constantly try to find ways to give us longer burning duration. Either I don’t get it or the Devs don’t get it….I assume I am missing something since “they” made the game…but I can’t find the logic.

I can imagine it be useful for chill, but its not useful.

CMF.5461:

In my opinion, the best reason to take burning duration is to prolong the times the target has a condition and a burn on it to make use of Fiery Wrath and Radiant power.

If we could find a way to maintain a burn on a target consistently with little to no gaps between cooldowns, maybe burning duration would be good then.

This drives me crazy, because the Devs constantly try to find ways to give us longer burning duration. Either I don’t get it or the Devs don’t get it….I assume I am missing something since “they” made the game…but I can’t find the logic.

I think it’s rather the devs not getting it. As to the stuff with Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power, it will be pretty irrelevant in both cases under most circumstances. Alone, just activate VoJ and the mobs will fall around the end of the burning effect, while in a group, Radiant Power will always be active and VoJ also gives a quite nice uptime for burning, even if noone else applies it.

CptAurellian.9537:

As to the stuff with Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power, it will be pretty irrelevant in both cases under most circumstances.

Um, what? So 10% damage increase from Fiery Wrath and 20% more duration from Radiant Power are irrelevant in most circumstances? I call bullkitten on that. I don’t know an cheaper or easier way to increase my damage 10% or get an extra tick from active VoJ.

CMF.5461:

If we could find a way to maintain a burn on a target consistently with little to no gaps between cooldowns, maybe burning duration would be good then.

There is a way, but it requires some very specific setup to do it.

Nope, not the damage from those traits, but trying to increase burning duration in order to increase their active uptime. That’s usually already long enough.

I’ve experimented alot with CD, probably alot more than most people here. I can assure you that the duration of active VoJ needs to be increased to get full effect of those traits, even on trash mobs farming orr. It’s not irrelevant at all.

If you are hammer, you need about 5-7 seconds. You still need at least 4 seconds on GS with the new traits. The 20% burning increase from Radiant Power is in the correct range for this (even though I don’t get why they didn’t make it 25% …). Personally, I target 7 second. Sometimes it’s over and sometimes just short. That’s where you want to be if you are making a burning build.

Literally all that is required for 100% uptime on a target is Radiant Fire, staying close to an enemy for the 3 second duration of Zealot’s Flame, and a single passive VoJ proc every 12 seconds.

So 20 points in the condition damage line and off-hand torch. Plus, it’s not unlikely (not guaranteed, but not unlikely) to do said 100% uptime to three targets instead of just one.

@Obtena

True, we can have burning maintain on a target, with specific setups. Torch 4 can keep 3 melee range targets burning for the prolonged duration of a fight, with some burning duration increases you can fill the gap in burning.

In a large AE fight consisting of 4 to 5 targets, 1 attack will proc burning. Doing AE with Permeating Wrath is quite nice on clusters of mobs, so that they all die evenly.

The question is, is it worth it?

I started off focusing on burns as a guardian, trying to find a way to make a defensive build that punishes players for hitting me with burns and retaliation. Did a lot of experimentation trying to make it effective. 1v1 it worked really well, but it was not really useful in the long run, so I have since dropped it.

I personally would love for burns to be more integral to our play as guardians, but it is too easy to cleanse off, and does not do damage fast enough to threaten other players.

Admittedly, I tend to think in terms of pvp when looking to enhance the guardian, so that may be my limitation factor in vision of what we can do or need.

One player with bleeds can typically maintain 4-5 stacks alone. Base damage for bleeds is 134 damage. so 134*4 = 680 damage a second.

One player with burns will do 328 damage a tick. Increasing stacks of burn prolong the damage, so I’m still doing 328 damage a tick.

If the player with bleeds increases the stacks for burst, lets say to 10…they will do 1340 damage a second.

So burning will not provide burst, and in a normal rotation of minimal bleed applications, it still under perform as a condition.

I really think burning needs a secondary effect to it, much like how chill slows a target and increases recharge time of skill and poison reduces healing. Both work in duration, but provide a control aspect to them.

Bleed is the dps condition.

Burn could reduce damage done by the burning target by a small % to use situationally as anti burst. This would be in line with the defensive support theme that guardians have and give burning more of a reason to be applied proactively instead of passively.

CMF.5461:

@Obtena

The question is, is it worth it?

If you are making a burning build, Fiery Wrath is a given, even before the patch. If a person doesn’t want to be stuck with 1H/torch for significant burning uptime, then it’s a hard sell not to go Rad 20 as well.

The question if burning builds are worth it is a matter of preference and application. Is it worth it for WvW? That’s a hard sell. I wouldn’t advise it though I think in very specific scenarios, it excels. Is it worth it for farming Orr and events? I’m convinced of it. Dungeons and instanced content? I’m on the fence there …

If you agree with those assessment of the usefulness of burning for Guardian, then you can see where burning fits and how it is used in the game. I used to think burning also needed a second effect until I did a little theorycrafting and played around with some builds ingame.

Well, Fiery Wrath is not technically burning damage. It is an augmentation of physical damage due to having a specific condition on the target. Much as the same as Radiant Power is not condition damage.

A lot of non-condition damage builds opt to go for one or both of those traits.

So when I say burning damage, is it worth it? I mean the condition it self and not the linked mechanics.

If you want to go full circle though, if you have burning on a target for 100% of the fight, then both those 2 traits increase our damage for 20% the whole time, versus what most builds right now have, which is 20% for 4-6 seconds of burst.

So I agree with you, burning is good, but not the burn itself per say.

Oh yeah I see what you are saying. The burn itself is trash but that’s actually typical for a few things. I can say the same thing about a heals with no heal power or a crit build with no crit damage. Yet people make heal-focused and crit builds regardless and it’s worth it for them.

Admittedly, the patch was bittersweet … I like the changes but I was hoping for something that would expand the burning concept to competitive builds for WvW. I just don’t see it this time around.

I agree obtena, but I’m still constantly swapping things around and testing them when I can

hey, quick question – so CMF, you mentioned 10% damage modifiers (fw, rp, etc etc) only affects direct damage? i.e. condition based damage doesn’t get affected at all?

i almost want to think burning is hard to build for. and not even just from a damage point of view. and too many variables. if you spec for burn damage and focus on constant aplpication, it’s doable. but if someone comes along with higher burn damage then you, it’s a “waste”. at the same time, if you spec for burn duration, with less application and damage, it’s there to supplement your normal attacks, but then they get cleansed easily. just some thoughts..

My only tests on the % increase in damage traits have been in the mists, so unsure if it is inconsistent in pve or not, but they only increase physical damage and not condition damage.

Like you said, akamon, the possibility of being overwritten with higher condition damage and having to wait for your damage to even happen makes conditions even less appealing.

So with that in mind, maybe that “is” what the developers are thinking when giving us increased burning and increased condition duration.

Add in the mix of cleanses and cooldown time for reapplication of a burn, then you get inconsistent spikey damage. Which as you said, is difficult to build for because of all the variables.

CMF.5461:

…unsure how you get 97.5% burning from 10 points in zeal (10% longer conditions) and Radiant Fire (20% longer burns).

(9 * 1.3) / (15 * 0.8) = 97.5%

Sorry we were talking about 2 different things. I was thinking burning duration (10% from 10 points in zeal and 20% from radiant fire trait resulting in 30% longer burns).

I think what you were talking about is “up time” meaning that burning is active 97.5% of the time, nothing to do with condition duration but the time that burn is active.

not exactly sure what the 9 and 15 represent in the equation. (cool down on torch?) but I think I know where we diverged, sorry and thanks for explaining

Yep I was talking about uptime. I did say uptime but I can understand with all the %‘s been thrown back and forth it could’ve become lost

The 9 is 3 burning procs of 3 seconds each given by Zealot’s Flame, and the 15 is its base cooldown. 9 is modified by 1.3 (30% burning duration) and 15 by 0.8 (20% cooldown reduction from Radiant Fire), giving 97.5% uptime.

IMO duration alone is only telling half the story for duration-stacking effects; the overall uptime is its true measure. Once you can achieve 100% uptime, extra duration is meaningless.

But yeah, my comment was mainly directed at ODB, who claimed that the buff to Radiant Fire resulted in no noticeable difference. I don’t focus on burning myself but I think it’s quite a strong trait for those who do. It requires less investment than Permeating Wrath and it still allows you to activate VoJ for Might/Blind/Vuln stacking. The only tradeoff is that the burning is limited to 3 targets, which I think still does quite well.

in my opinion burning build will be less than useless not for burning duration itself but because we have only … 1 condition…
also if we could put on a 1000sec burning duration enemies can remove it very… very easily and a build based on burning damage will have approximately 0 dps…
in my opinion guardians need a trait whin make burning non-removable or something that greatly increase burning damage… for exemple a damage which decreases with seconds:
(burning 5 sec):
1° sec: 1500 damage
2° sec 1250 damage
3° sec 1000 damage
4° sec 750 damage
5° sec 500 damage

in this way we dont care about removal and classes based on removal can still get a nice damage reduction… just few numbers:
full duraton (now):
1000 damage x 5 secs = 5000 damage
if you remove burning after 2 sec you take 2000 damage and avoid 3000 damage

full duration (with my system)
1500+1250+1000+750+500 = 5000 damage
if you remove burning after 2 sec you take 2750 damage and avoid 2250 damag

… a nice dps increase … or maybe something like this…

ps: sorry for grammar