Guild Wars 2

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUMQNAR7dlYgiDHFyvDf4ESOjCEBrUEP3DOjKKjA-jECBYjERzUEwUGDRLRtIasVRFRjVVjIqWlEzcuIa1SBs1uK-w
That’s a link I’m providing, I’m suggesting the build usage in WvW.
Things to note:
+250 vitality, +100 power and +100 condition damagefrom WvW bonuses is not included in the calculator.
Stat infusions in Armor and weapons also don’t work in calculator for some reason, if I would get to choose I’d probably put +10 power and +30 healing power(weapons and armor respectively). It seems like the build could use some more Power and some less precision, although I like the idea of 75% critical chance which will also result in might stacks from Strength and Empowered Might)
15 might stacks – an estimation of mine, I think you’re capable of consistengly upkeeping this with this setup.
Why Celestial Gear?
Because Guardian happens to synergize well with all the stats provided by it. I think Power, Precision, Crit Damage as well as Toughness and Vitality are self explanatory.
Healing Power actually seems to me superior to Vitality for example. That’s after I started to add up estimated heal from healing power, and I’ve only ever looked at myself, not on the others around who also benefit from my heals.
Last(and actually least useful), Condition Damage benefits Guardian more than many think it does. I think many dismiss the fact that Binding Blade has 0.2 condition scaling. Compared to Burning 0.25 and Bleed 0.05 having Burning and Binding Blade on a target is equal to have 9 bleed stacks, which isn’t exactly bad.
I guess the build aims for a front-liner in a zerg. Could be also very effective in solo roaming.
I’m asking you to fiddle around with the build(in calculator, in real game if you want but ehh, that’s expensive) and find out what could be further improved :P

Evalia.7103:

The goal of the build is… none. In dungeons you’ll be the tank(Imagine, in high level fractals you DO need a tank!), which will be cake-difficulty with the variety of defensive stats, really. And you’ll also provide some meaningful damage too.

Celestial gear is bad for PVE. It will be even worse after the upcoming patch. There is no need for a tank. Your damage won’t be good. WvW <> PVE.

obal.3218:

Evalia.7103:

The goal of the build is… none. In dungeons you’ll be the tank(Imagine, in high level fractals you DO need a tank!), which will be cake-difficulty with the variety of defensive stats, really. And you’ll also provide some meaningful damage too.

Celestial gear is bad for PVE. It will be even worse after the upcoming patch. There is no need for a tank. Your damage won’t be good. WvW <> PVE.

Of course it isn’t good if all you care about is damage – it’s obvious. Of course you will want some sustain for your party in high level fractals. Maybe you weren’t in them yet?
40-50+ and the likes.
Okay, but besides that:
Why will celestial gear be worse after patch?
I’ve read all the patch notes, and I’m not going to hide it – they bring in a lot of balance changes and I’m actually liking them. Ferocity statistic is kind of interesting – but it doesn’t necessarily seem like a nerf to celestial gear.
Why do you bring up PVE when I stated in the beginning that the build was aimed for WvW? Granted, I’ll be running in dungeons with that. But ain’t nobody gonna say I’m useless because I certainly won’t be that downed man who people need to resurrect.

In high Level fractals your gonna to take alot of damage regardless if you let something hit you. The best way to clear high level fractals is to not get hit or to negate the damage you would be taking by other means.

Celestial gear isn’t going to help there. For me Its always been zerker, the faster it dies the less chance it has to hit me. I don’t even like running Celestial in WvW, I would run my Soldiers or Clerics there, not the celestial.

Talyn.3295:

In high Level fractals your gonna to take alot of damage regardless if you let something hit you. The best way to clear high level fractals is to not get hit or to negate the damage you would be taking by other means.

Celestial gear isn’t going to help there. For me Its always been zerker, the faster it dies the less chance it has to hit me. I don’t even like running Celestial in WvW, I would run my Soldiers or Clerics there, not the celestial.

negating damage by toughness and healing power? Just a safety net after your back, so you will not actually get 1-shotted by something(most annoying thing, and also happens quite often, especially with guardian base-lacking health pool). Granted, you can block that, but better safe than sorry.
Here’s an example: fire elemental fractal fight. Tell me how you’re going to burst it down with zerkers and you don’t need the heals at all.
As for WvW, soldiers and clerics… hmm.
Clerics(p/t/HP)[ are more of a supporty orientied gear type, nothing’s wrong with that. And Soldier’s(P/t/v) the same, except you’re getting vitality instead of healing power… you’d probably want to mix them to achieve a good mix inbetween burst survivability and damage-over-time survivability.
But you’re not going to do any damage right there. Having a lot of power and 4% critical is pretty sad, in my opinion. If you have this much power you should definitely trade some of it for precision and critical damage to achieve a superior damage output to pure power… And that’s it. Give me some toughness, some vitality with healing power too please, and don’t forget some Power balanced out by precision and critical damage.
That’s downright celestial gear here.
Of course, it would be a different story if you’d build around a gear with healing power, vitality and toughness, with no Power considered at all. But that’s 100% support, very boring, unable to damage anything and being simply a supporting hunk of meat doesn’t seem appealing to me, precisely because you’re basically an incredibly cool banner that can’t do anything by itself.
It would be a different story if you’d build around power, precision and critical damage too, but you’d just get downright oneshotted by anyone in WvW. Speed Runs are not something I’m considering when I’m talking about WvW.

Celestial gear on Guardian for PVE. i loled

U can´t negate partydmg with toughness and vita. Healingpower..well sometimes. But then do not use celestialgear.

They only way to use clestialgear is the need of ALL stats. And a guardian never needs conditiodmg, so never celestial gear.
Even if only 1 stat is “bad” for u, u can get more usefull stats with a combination of other gear.

If u rly want to play a “Healguardian in PvE”, they should Add Power/prec/healpower…gear!

i thought someone did an indepth comparison for all-stat gear and the result was if you use more than 4 stats if i recall correctly , it is worth it?

Zackie.8923:

i thought someone did an indepth comparison for all-stat gear and the result was if you use more than 4 stats if i recall correctly , it is worth it?

Ok let´s try.

I “want” dmg and healingpower. So i need
Full celestial. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFACAA-jABBYjAJqFRjVVjIqWlEDA-e
critdmg: 62%
power: 1384
prec: 1384
healpower: 468
thoughness: (had to add it): 1384

Berserker/Clericmix (well i´ll get thoughness which i don´t want -.-).
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQFACAA-jgBBYfAZmMasJpAqZDRWXDT5CFA-e
critdmg: 37%
power: 1848
prec: 1346
healpower: 470
thoughness: 1231

Depending on the low critical chance it seems that berserker/clericsmix is the winner. And i was forced to add thoughness.

I rly want Power/prec/healpowergear….

Zackie.8923:

i thought someone did an indepth comparison for all-stat gear and the result was if you use more than 4 stats if i recall correctly , it is worth it?

I know what you are talking about it was from Reddit post.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1bxscy/celestial_gear_a_comparison

Since this is about WvW of course so disregard for PvE.

The Want comes from that point in the build process. If you want 4-5 to be the focus for your build then celestial probably helps or may be optimal depending on what you want.

If you get to a point where you feel like your healing power is adequate. You then want precision or critical damage or power then your next piece of gear should go toward that stat as a primary. You may or may not have to sacrifice anything to get that stat but whatever the stat is it is better on a specialized piece of gear.

It is all personal preference and it is all about stat spread and personal thresholds that you like for your build.

If I feel like I want more dps in my build and I feel like I am ok with losing 48 vitality and 48 toughness. I would look to replace shoulders and gloves that are PvT with zerker if I had them.

I main Elementalist and I never recommend anyone to run full celestial armor and Ele’s can use all of those stats much better then a Guardian.

If you want come celestial to help round out a few stats I recommend 2-3 armor pieces tops and its head, chest, legs for exotic and head, minor piece(shoulder, gloves, boots), then chest for ascended.

With the upcoming changes to ferocity and crit damage I would hold off on celestial unless you have crystals to blow. With ferocity coming in to dictate critical damage we need to know the value to = 1 crit damage.

Evalia.7103:

Talyn.3295:

In high Level fractals your gonna to take alot of damage regardless if you let something hit you. The best way to clear high level fractals is to not get hit or to negate the damage you would be taking by other means.

Celestial gear isn’t going to help there. For me Its always been zerker, the faster it dies the less chance it has to hit me. I don’t even like running Celestial in WvW, I would run my Soldiers or Clerics there, not the celestial.

negating damage by toughness and healing power? Just a safety net after your back, so you will not actually get 1-shotted by something(most annoying thing, and also happens quite often, especially with guardian base-lacking health pool). Granted, you can block that, but better safe than sorry.
Here’s an example: fire elemental fractal fight. Tell me how you’re going to burst it down with zerkers and you don’t need the heals at all.
As for WvW, soldiers and clerics… hmm.
Clerics(p/t/HP)[ are more of a supporty orientied gear type, nothing’s wrong with that. And Soldier’s(P/t/v) the same, except you’re getting vitality instead of healing power… you’d probably want to mix them to achieve a good mix inbetween burst survivability and damage-over-time survivability.
But you’re not going to do any damage right there. Having a lot of power and 4% critical is pretty sad, in my opinion. If you have this much power you should definitely trade some of it for precision and critical damage to achieve a superior damage output to pure power… And that’s it. Give me some toughness, some vitality with healing power too please, and don’t forget some Power balanced out by precision and critical damage.
That’s downright celestial gear here.
Of course, it would be a different story if you’d build around a gear with healing power, vitality and toughness, with no Power considered at all. But that’s 100% support, very boring, unable to damage anything and being simply a supporting hunk of meat doesn’t seem appealing to me, precisely because you’re basically an incredibly cool banner that can’t do anything by itself.
It would be a different story if you’d build around power, precision and critical damage too, but you’d just get downright oneshotted by anyone in WvW. Speed Runs are not something I’m considering when I’m talking about WvW.

Its better to be a specialist then a generalist. Soldiers and Clerics, of the two I run clerics more its about team play. There is no place for the lone cowboy approach in Tier 1 if you want to do it right. The team that has the best synergy will always have the advantage.

Edit: After thinking about it, the only piece of gear I would get with these stats is my back piece, only then because an ascended back item tends to be a little bit more of a kitten to get then others to get.

Come and give, Celestial gives a lot more stats point-for-point if I consider all stats but condition damage. Which, hey, meanwhile gets utilized with GS #5 and permanent burning, that’s solid damage right there. My eyes hurted when I read through the math’s and PVE comments, I mean math was so horrible and why do you still talk about PVE? You can run full white gear and still succeed quite easily.
As for specialization and that you’ll never want full celestial because, you know, specialization
I’m just trying to utilize the stat advantage, while specializing easily with traits&runes&sigils&infusions
Well, because celestial offers little power and precision and a lot of critical damage(note how I point out defensive stats are completely fine, because they don’t have such synergistic scaling with each other like power/precision/crit damage do), I’m
just getting Power and Precision. That’s my way of specializing – gear is almost the only thing that can be celestial, but there are still other sources to specialize.

Its better to be a specialist then a generalist. Soldiers and Clerics, of the two I run clerics more its about team play. There is no place for the lone cowboy approach in Tier 1 if you want to do it right. The team that has the best synergy will always have the advantage.

Edit: After thinking about it, the only piece of gear I would get with these stats is my back piece, only then because an ascended back item tends to be a little bit more of a kitten to get then others to get.

Actually, the Celestial backpiece is the worst piece of Celestial Gear and should be the first one to be swapped out if you want to specialize(that should change with the patch, though).
If everybody only ran healing power, you’d never be able to kill anyone. Being a Support is not the only way you can work with other players, now imagine that. Damage saves lives too.

I main Elementalist and I never recommend anyone to run full celestial armor and Ele’s can use all of those stats much better then a Guardian.

Care to elaborate the difference? I mean, If you are using Staff, forget the condition damage. Guardian benefits more from it then, lol. If D/D, then yeah, healing is about the same, actually even a bit stronger on guardian I think. And I don’t really get the whole idea of condition damage being horrible on guardian – Binding Blade acts as a second condition, so you essentially have 2 of them, which isn’t that horrible as people make it seem.
And so I think the difference is minimal right there and therefore you can make decent use of ALL stats on guardian, granted condition damage is somewhat lacking… But if you’re counting 5 stats out of 7 it’s already in celestial favor, so…

Definitely not viable for pve, the loss in power is just too great

and just to add in high end pve you don’t even want a tank you want a full dps team bringing support through reflect/aegis/blinds ect

Painbow.6059:

Definitely not viable for pve, the loss in power is just too great

and just to add in high end pve you don’t even want a tank you want a full dps team bringing support through reflect/aegis/blinds ect

It’s possible to solo Arah nude. I don’t care, really. Dungeons are there to get gear and money’s, not the other way around. Also, updated the thread title, hopefully word PvE won’t appear once again.

Evalia.7103:

Painbow.6059:

Definitely not viable for pve, the loss in power is just too great

and just to add in high end pve you don’t even want a tank you want a full dps team bringing support through reflect/aegis/blinds ect

It’s possible to solo Arah nude. I don’t care, really. Dungeons are there to get gear and money’s, not the other way around. Also, updated the thread title, hopefully word PvE won’t appear once again.

turn up to my fractal run naked and try to stay alive, and good for changing the title

Celestial sucks on guardian, there is nothing more to see here. moving on…

Evalia.7103:

I main Elementalist and I never recommend anyone to run full celestial armor and Ele’s can use all of those stats much better then a Guardian.

Care to elaborate the difference? I mean, If you are using Staff, forget the condition damage. Guardian benefits more from it then, lol. If D/D, then yeah, healing is about the same, actually even a bit stronger on guardian I think. And I don’t really get the whole idea of condition damage being horrible on guardian – Binding Blade acts as a second condition, so you essentially have 2 of them, which isn’t that horrible as people make it seem.
And so I think the difference is minimal right there and therefore you can make decent use of ALL stats on guardian, granted condition damage is somewhat lacking… But if you’re counting 5 stats out of 7 it’s already in celestial favor, so…

Healing is probably the same possibly. Elementalist have 1:1 scaling heals like a guardian. Evasive arcana, Healing Ripple, Cleansing Wave from dagger 5 and Water trident from Scepter 3 in water all scale at 1:1. With ether renewal scaling at 1.20 close to Signet of Resolves 1:25. Healing is probably very close in a party guardian is better by design the Elementalist is the second best healer in the game so we all know that.

The condition damage is no contest the Condition applying attacks are inherent on elementalists weapons so that is in the Ele’s favor and they are on very low cooldowns. This one isn’t even close guard v ele condition damage that includes staff. Every weapon combination for elementalist has access to chill, burning, and bleeds, you can throw covers of vulnerability, cripple, immobilze and weakness over them depending on weapon set and trait.

The reason I don’t recommend full celestial is for elementalist is because the condition damage is that is usually brought up as a way to “make up dps” assumes those conditions aren’t wiped. With burning access it does help because the base of burning is good but as soon as that burning is wiped the condition damage is wasted so the “make up dps” is lost.

I am not saying it is bad gear for WvW just don’t over invest. I have 2 pieces of celestial on my ele I feel 2-3 is good on guardian. The issue is DPS even on a ele that can maintain permanent fury uptime far easier then a guardian and stack might easier except for empowering might.

Power is still the best offensive stat.

I am not a fan of boon duration to also “make up” dps. Power is always good, if you are building a attrition fighter then I am on board with might stacks so you can build up your damage. The problem with relying on might stacks to make up power is that you are relying on back loaded build up damage that can also be stripped. Where as the person with higher power at the start is bring more of a threat at the start of the engagement.

If you do the math on crit damage ratios and look at reasonable projections of what the conversion between ferocity and crit damage may look like, cele gets the shaft. Off of a full set of celestial gear, you’d be losing at least 21% crit damage over the current stat distribution. Which, itself, is a full 9% crit damage lower than current Berserker gear. Obviously nobody outside of staff eles are taking full cele, but it illustrates the fact that crit damage derived from celestial gear in the near future is going to be greatly lowered.

Let’s hope ANet balances celestial gear separately.

Celestial was kitten pre balance, at least trinkets was, and even worse after the patch.

If you actually think celestials got a place in the game atm give me a PM and i will explain why you are wrong.

Its all about effective stats, if you dont get the concept keep investing in bs gear.

Evalia.7103:

Of course it isn’t good if all you care about is damage – it’s obvious. Of course you will want some sustain for your party in high level fractals. Maybe you weren’t in them yet?
40-50+ and the likes.

PVE is damage oriented. Fractals will 1-2 shot you regardless so it’s best to go more offensive then be a burden to your group that can’t rally off your tanky dps. Hammer is the best choice for fractals as well as having blind spam in your build. I leveled to 80 and then 50 again doing full zerk hammer. It is best for fractals.

Evalia.7103:

Okay, but besides that:
Why will celestial gear be worse after patch?
I’ve read all the patch notes, and I’m not going to hide it – they bring in a lot of balance changes and I’m actually liking them. Ferocity statistic is kind of interesting – but it doesn’t necessarily seem like a nerf to celestial gear.

The low power stat is bad for PVE. The only thing that somewhat saves it was the crit damage which is being nerfed.

Evalia.7103:

Why do you bring up PVE when I stated in the beginning that the build was aimed for WvW? Granted, I’ll be running in dungeons with that. But ain’t nobody gonna say I’m useless because I certainly won’t be that downed man who people need to resurrect.

You brought it up in the OP. You bring it up again above. WvW isn’t PVE and you should have 2 different builds and gear to be optimal in both modes which many don’t seem to understand.

Most pve dudes seems to be stupid (its a bait) or just being really bad on being reasonable.

OP, dont scare Obal away since he is the one of the most knowledgable guys around thats into pve.

Its even gone so far that the build refered to as “obals build” has been nominated the meta.

So as a humble advice, just sit back and let him unfold some truths.

In short, anything that focusing on celestials suck, in wvw for one reason and in pve for an other.

But in short it sucks.

EDIT its been discussed in numerous threads already and when it comes to effective stats its just bad.

Evalia.7103:

Of course it isn’t good if all you care about is damage – it’s obvious. Of course you will want some sustain for your party in high level fractals. Maybe you weren’t in them yet?
40-50+ and the likes.

Assuming Obal hasn’t done high lvl fotm:

Evalia.7103:

Its better to be a specialist then a generalist. Soldiers and Clerics, of the two I run clerics more its about team play. There is no place for the lone cowboy approach in Tier 1 if you want to do it right. The team that has the best synergy will always have the advantage.

Edit: After thinking about it, the only piece of gear I would get with these stats is my back piece, only then because an ascended back item tends to be a little bit more of a kitten to get then others to get.

Actually, the Celestial backpiece is the worst piece of Celestial Gear and should be the first one to be swapped out if you want to specialize(that should change with the patch, though).
If everybody only ran healing power, you’d never be able to kill anyone. Being a Support is not the only way you can work with other players, now imagine that. Damage saves lives too.

I main Elementalist and I never recommend anyone to run full celestial armor and Ele’s can use all of those stats much better then a Guardian.

Care to elaborate the difference? I mean, If you are using Staff, forget the condition damage. Guardian benefits more from it then, lol. If D/D, then yeah, healing is about the same, actually even a bit stronger on guardian I think. And I don’t really get the whole idea of condition damage being horrible on guardian – Binding Blade acts as a second condition, so you essentially have 2 of them, which isn’t that horrible as people make it seem.
And so I think the difference is minimal right there and therefore you can make decent use of ALL stats on guardian, granted condition damage is somewhat lacking… But if you’re counting 5 stats out of 7 it’s already in celestial favor, so…

I will take your word for that. I don’t like Celestial enough to even compare it to my current gear. I have two specialized ascended back pieces. A zerker for PvE and clerics for WvW. As for never being able to kill anyone? Ask anyone on BG, JQ or SoR if NOC can kill anyone. I didn’t say our whole Guild Runs it, but the better part of our Guardians do.

Besides, If I recall, the Old Healway builds were all about Clerics and they were one of the best roaming builds the guardians had. Sometimes in WvW its not about straight damage, but about outlasting the other guy.

Edit: You ask for a discussion on the gear. It has been discussed many times. There are several people who still bring it up, but the majority of the guardian community agrees a full set is not worth it. However, as in everything with guild wars. Play as you want.

Brutaly.6257:

Celestial was kitten pre balance, at least trinkets was, and even worse after the patch.

If you actually think celestials got a place in the game atm give me a PM and i will explain why you are wrong.

Its all about effective stats, if you dont get the concept keep investing in bs gear.

This is a WvW thread, discussing celestial gear in a WvW context. I assure you, it’s more than viable in WvW. Optimal? Often not; however, you’re not typically afforded the luxury of having 100% optimized gear when you have specific stat points to hit.

Best build possible for guards used celestial trinkets but that’s a goner now that its getting nerfed

Just chiming in… I use celestial trinkets for WvW zerg busting, and every time I see someone hating on celestial, I try to re-work the build and nothing comes close to the stats I want, which using celestial provides. I really hope the devs don’t mess it up too bad, because then I’ll have to spend a lot of time and effort making another build that works just as well for me.

Evalia.7103:

*Come and give, Celestial gives a lot more stats point-for-point if I consider all stats but condition damage.

And its here the problem is, not all stats are worth equally. What people should look at is effective stats as effective healthpool (combination of healing power, toughness and vitality) and effective damage (power, precision, critical damage and condition damage) and it is here celestial falls short. The lack of power, which is the base, always makes a mix of gear more attractive

I have done numerous of builds trying to find a celestial build that cant be bettered with a mix of gear but budget wise celestials are poorly designed.

With that said when i chose to do my set of ascended i chose full celestial for armor and the reason for that is that i probabaly wont be able to make a second set in the next year or so since i only do wvw.

I kind of regret that now due to Anet stating they gonna nerf critical damage, which is the only stat a celestial can stack. On the other hand we will get double sigils on 2h which will improve are capability to stack might but i still fear that the celestial setup gonna get the short end of the stick in the upcoming patch.

Why have there been 2-3 new full celestial builds per week in the forum lately. Every time it ends up turning into the same thing of everyone trying to explain how they are not optimal and 1-2 people refusing to listen and say they are the best thing since sliced bread…

That aside, I only have one comment on this thread.

Evalia.7103:

Binding Blade acts as a second condition, so you essentially have 2 of them, which isn’t that horrible as people make it seem.

…. Did you really just try to say that because we have binding blade we have 2 conditions, and thus are overreacting when it comes to conditions we can apply? You do realize it does half of the base damage compared to burning, is a HUGE part of our very limited CC (which also REMOVES the DoT when used), is VERY easy to evade, and has a long cool down even with 2h mastery. Just saying that alone really makes me question if you understand guardian mechanics at all, let alone stats for them.

Bash.7291:

…. Did you really just try to say that because we have binding blade we have 2 conditions, and thus are overreacting when it comes to conditions we can apply? You do realize it does half of the base damage compared to burning, is a HUGE part of our very limited CC (which also REMOVES the DoT when used), is VERY easy to evade, and has a long cool down even with 2h mastery. Just saying that alone really makes me question if you understand guardian mechanics at all, let alone stats for them.

Condition damage doesn’t seem to increase base damage in any way, so it’s 0.2 compared to 0.25 scaling, which is very close, just 20% less than burning.
Considering that, and condition damage doesn’t seem worth nothing anymore. It’s not uber 20 stacks of bleeding, but
Binding Blade cannot be removed by condition removal.
That alone is a huge advantage. Of course I’m timing it correctly – it should be used just after enemy used up his dodgebar, or when he’s stunned or something. Why you’d begin to use an ability like that, for nothing or what?
Of course it’s a drawback that it’s removed when you pull them. But Guardian doesn’t just have the single condition, stating that is simply untrue.
Meanwhile, celestial gear pulls quite a train ahead(slightly higher amount of stats when you consider 5 out of 7 useful, that’s ~40% more stats than any other gear set). Sure, it lacks in specialization. Surely that’s a reason to get celestial gear and specialize in places where you cannot just get a little bit of everything?
Anyway, we are up for some big changes rocking the gear in gw2, so not much can be said with certainity.

Evalia.7103:

obal.3218:

Celestial gear is bad for PVE. It will be even worse after the upcoming patch. There is no need for a tank. Your damage won’t be good. WvW <> PVE.

Of course you will want some sustain for your party in high level fractals. Maybe you weren’t in them yet?
40-50+ and the likes.

This was my favourite forum post while on forum vacation. Incredible. Obal is such a noob.

@OP
The reason you are getting lots of PvE comments is this:
“The goal of the build is… none. In dungeons you’ll be the tank(Imagine, in high level fractals you DO need a tank!), which will be cake-difficulty with the variety of defensive stats, really. And you’ll also provide some meaningful damage too.”

Evalia.7103:

Meanwhile, celestial gear pulls quite a train ahead(slightly higher amount of stats when you consider 5 out of 7 useful, that’s ~40% more stats than any other gear set).

The problem with your reasoning is that you look at raw stats. And celestials has more raw stats, the issue is that stats are worth different in ANY build. For instance power>precision>critical damage.

So celestials actually has less EFFECTIVE stats in general with the exception of 2-4 pieces. Trinkets are crap budget wise so any build with them in it is by default a poor build.

Brutaly.6257:

Evalia.7103:

Meanwhile, celestial gear pulls quite a train ahead(slightly higher amount of stats when you consider 5 out of 7 useful, that’s ~40% more stats than any other gear set).

The problem with your reasoning is that you look at raw stats. And celestials has more raw stats, the issue is that stats are worth different in ANY build. For instance power>precision>critical damage.

So celestials actually has less EFFECTIVE stats in general with the exception of 2-4 pieces. Trinkets are crap budget wise so any build with them in it is by default a poor build.

Interesting how you count effective stats, really. It’s obvious even to a moa that power becomes better when you have a lot of precision and critical damage, but it doesn’t become quite as much better as celestial gear, which provides nearly 50%(!) more stat points.
Budget? Who cares about budget? It’s about what’s better, not about what costs less.

Brutaly.6257:

I have done numerous of builds trying to find a celestial build that cant be bettered with a mix of gear but budget wise celestials are poorly designed.

Ahhhhhh I understand now. Celestial IS viable, but only when used with a mix of gear. However, when you mix the gear effectively, we always need the most expensive pieces (trinkets) to be celestial for the build to work.

And here I was, thinking that you hated celestial, until I took a hard look at your thread and then back at this post. Sorry for not understanding you correctly.

Evalia.7103:

Interesting how you count effective stats, really. It’s obvious even to a moa that power becomes better when you have a lot of precision and critical damage, but it doesn’t become quite as much better as celestial gear, which provides nearly 50%(!) more stat points.
Budget? Who cares about budget? It’s about what’s better, not about what costs less.

I see now that you dont understand what im trying to tell you. 1 point of power increases your dps more than one point of precision, given everything else equal.

Go to this build tool and fiddle around with builds and watch the effective stats change and you will get what im trying to tell you.http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/

Budget wasnt refering to how much gold it takes to get the gear. Budget was refering to the budget of stats in the item. You look at raw stats, ie how many points the piece have in total, i look on the actual impact (damage done and damage mitigated) of the piece. And if you use the builds tool i linked to you can easily see the effective stats.

add to that that crit damage (the only strong point celestial has) will be nerfed.

Aether the Nob.9172:

Ahhhhhh I understand now. Celestial IS viable, but only when used with a mix of gear. However, when you mix the gear effectively, we always need the most expensive pieces (trinkets) to be celestial for the build to work.

And here I was, thinking that you hated celestial, until I took a hard look at your thread and then back at this post. Sorry for not understanding you correctly.

Celestial is very much viable/competitive in wvw but only if you use a couple of pieces from the armor. Trinkets are poorly designed since they dont offer as much effective stats as a combo of other trinkets do.

No i dont hate celestials, my only ascended armor (and probabaly the only i ever will get due to just playing wvw) is 100% celestial but i never use my celestial trinkets since i can better my effective stats by combining clerics, berserker, valkyire and pvt to get larger effective healthpool, equal healing and higher dps.

This calculator you linked has lots of minor bugs, it does not even know that celestial backpiece exists for example.
I’ve fiddled around with it, but calculations were really screwed hard due to the fact that I couldn’t include stacked WvW bonuses and sigil(something that without a doubt takes place in WvW, and something that WITHOUT A DOUBT provides further specialization which, in my opinion, is sufficient enough.). Not to mention effective stats never cared to include healing and condition damage, which is kind of ridiculous, making it look like healing power is worth nothing while in fact it’s worth more point for point than vitality.
Very obvious that anything that includes healing power and condition damage will pale in comparison. Because this monster of a calculator doesn’t include them in it’s “effective damage” “effective survivability” calculations.
And the moment you start combing up clerics, berserker, valkyrie and soldier’s on your trinkets, you’ve just lost flat out to celestial, admitting that you still want 6 stats even when you already have full celestial armor set packed up.

Evalia, a lot of what you are posting is opinion backed up by little mathematics and shown gameplay. If you really want to prove your point you will have to really show your math and your gameplay.

And since Celestial covers so much its going to be a lot of math. Then you are going to have to prove your point against other builds and show their math then compare.

Then you are going to have to show the build in actual gameplay with vids. Because math is one thing but actual gameplay is needed. You have yet to do this either.

We have done these things collectively as a community.

If you aren’t doing this you are just arguing for the sake of it. Its one things to say its viable, its another to say its better then X, Y, and Z and show nothing for it.

With the upcoming changes and I dread even thinking it but “Guardian being left with 1 role in WvW, that of a support/healer” Celestial is hardly going to be on par with what’s going to be needed.

I spent 2 hours y-day compiling a vulnerability/might stacking/damage modifier build that relies on crit damage as little as possible without sacrificing the ever so needed condi cleanse and… after running my math I came up 4-700 damage short and the higher the initial skill damage the higher the difference, I’m sure that if I run my numbers for WW it will be nothing short of a 1k dmg loss. In other words, it won’t work.

On the upside the even heavier condi meta will make Inner Fire give 100% uptime on fury in pvp.

Brutaly.6257:

Celestial is very much viable/competitive in wvw but only if you use a couple of pieces from the armor. Trinkets are poorly designed since they dont offer as much effective stats as a combo of other trinkets do.

No i dont hate celestials, my only ascended armor (and probabaly the only i ever will get due to just playing wvw) is 100% celestial but i never use my celestial trinkets since i can better my effective stats by combining clerics, berserker, valkyire and pvt to get larger effective healthpool, equal healing and higher dps.

Here, I actually did make a build using non-celestial that has comparative effective stats: 50%prec, 50%crit DMG, 30k ehp, 3000Effective power. Honestly, as you can see, the difference is just about insignificant (I may have used different foods though, sorry I cant remember I’m posting using my phone atm)
CELSTAL TRINKETS: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|2.1n.h1.0.0.0|1.1g.h15.0.0.0|1c.bx.1c.bx.1n.bx.1c.bx.1n.7x.1c.7x.0.0.0.0.0.0|411.0.211.0.311.0.211.0.311.0.1i.0|0.5.u46b.u289.5|2e.7|w.16.19.1b.0|e

NON-CELESTIAL: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|2.1n.h1.0.0.0|1.1g.h1.0.0.0|1c.bx.1c.bx.1n.bx.1c.bx.1n.7x.1c.7x.0.0.0.0.0.0|2u.0.31j.0.21j.0.2s.0.3s.0.1c.0|0.5.u46b.u289.5|6f.7|w.16.19.1b.0|e

Evalia.7103:

This calculator you linked has lots of minor bugs, it does not even know that celestial backpiece exists for example.
I’ve fiddled around with it, but calculations were really screwed hard due to the fact that I couldn’t include stacked WvW bonuses and sigil(something that without a doubt takes place in WvW, and something that WITHOUT A DOUBT provides further specialization which, in my opinion, is sufficient enough.). Not to mention effective stats never cared to include healing and condition damage, which is kind of ridiculous, making it look like healing power is worth nothing while in fact it’s worth more point for point than vitality.
Very obvious that anything that includes healing power and condition damage will pale in comparison. Because this monster of a calculator doesn’t include them in it’s “effective damage” “effective survivability” calculations.
And the moment you start combing up clerics, berserker, valkyrie and soldier’s on your trinkets, you’ve just lost flat out to celestial, admitting that you still want 6 stats even when you already have full celestial armor set packed up.

That site does lack a few things due to not being updated all that frequently, but you can use the Manual section to add buffs like 250 power from stacks manually.

I find it funny how this thread is labeled a discussion, but its more just a “here is my build, and anything you say against it is wrong” thread.

As far as that build calc is concerned, how about you actually look at it and learn to use it. Effective health is nothing more than your health pool along with damage reduction from armor. Healing power is IMPOSSIBLE to calculate into survivablity like that since alot of it is dependant on the actual player. Any gain you get is on your skills which need to be used. Say you dodge roll at full health to avoid an attack, in that case any healing power with selfless daring is not going to anything to effective health, since you didn’t heal at all. So please, give us the formula that shows that you can calculate that before ripping into a pretty nice build calculator.

Also, as red said above, the manual tab is there for a reason, you can pretty much fix everything from it, including wvw and sigil stacks, as well as if there are gear pieces missing you can manually enter them.

But please, show us this amazing calculator you have that adds in condition damage to effective power and healing power into effective health.

Bash.7291:

I find it funny how this thread is labeled a discussion, but its more just a “here is my build, and anything you say against it is wrong” thread.

As far as that build calc is concerned, how about you actually look at it and learn to use it. Effective health is nothing more than your health pool along with damage reduction from armor. Healing power is IMPOSSIBLE to calculate into survivablity like that since alot of it is dependant on the actual player. Any gain you get is on your skills which need to be used. Say you dodge roll at full health to avoid an attack, in that case any healing power with selfless daring is not going to anything to effective health, since you didn’t heal at all. So please, give us the formula that shows that you can calculate that before ripping into a pretty nice build calculator.

Also, as red said above, the manual tab is there for a reason, you can pretty much fix everything from it, including wvw and sigil stacks, as well as if there are gear pieces missing you can manually enter them.

But please, show us this amazing calculator you have that adds in condition damage to effective power and healing power into effective health.

Actually, I was showing Brutally that celestial trinkets can compare with, and possibly out-do other trinkets in some cases. I was NOT looking to fight about my build, and,if anything, was looking for advice as to what gear celestial should be replaced with. Sounds like a discussion to me.

Aether the Nob.9172:

Bash.7291:

I find it funny how this thread is labeled a discussion, but its more just a “here is my build, and anything you say against it is wrong” thread.

As far as that build calc is concerned, how about you actually look at it and learn to use it. Effective health is nothing more than your health pool along with damage reduction from armor. Healing power is IMPOSSIBLE to calculate into survivablity like that since alot of it is dependant on the actual player. Any gain you get is on your skills which need to be used. Say you dodge roll at full health to avoid an attack, in that case any healing power with selfless daring is not going to anything to effective health, since you didn’t heal at all. So please, give us the formula that shows that you can calculate that before ripping into a pretty nice build calculator.

Also, as red said above, the manual tab is there for a reason, you can pretty much fix everything from it, including wvw and sigil stacks, as well as if there are gear pieces missing you can manually enter them.

But please, show us this amazing calculator you have that adds in condition damage to effective power and healing power into effective health.

Actually, I was showing Brutally that celestial trinkets can compare with, and possibly out-do other trinkets in some cases. I was NOT looking to fight about my build, and,if anything, was looking for advice as to what gear celestial should be replaced with. Sounds like a discussion to me.

I believe Bash was not replying to you.

Yeah not directed at you aether. Posting from my phone so i just skipped quoting because its just a pain. Also yeah, horrible broken english on my part in places for the same reason.

Aether the Nob.9172:

Actually, I was showing Brutally that celestial trinkets can compare with, and possibly out-do other trinkets in some cases. I was NOT looking to fight about my build, and,if anything, was looking for advice as to what gear celestial should be replaced with. Sounds like a discussion to me.

The builds you posted arent comparable since they have both different levels of healing power and also base damage.

Trinkets cant match the other stat combos, period. Any build with celestial trinkets can be made better. There is only one exception here and that is if you have strict thresholds that needs to reached but that is more of a psychological thing and have very little with performance to do. For instance when i run 0/5/30/30/5/ i just cant get out of my head that i have to dodge roll for at least 1k.

I havent said that celestial trinkets are much worse, they are only marginal worse but OP insists on stating the superiority of the build and gear. And since people read this they might get the impression that he is on to something and waste time and gold and get trinkets that wont be optimized.

If you want celestials i would go for the armor.

@OP
The site is very viable. Both the calculations for effective power (damage) and effective health (mitigated damage) are correct and for every thing you miss you can adjust that manually.

What i do agree on (if that is what you ment in your post) is that celestial gear benefits relatively more from guard kills and stacking sigils as long as we are talking about power.

Sidenote you can use that site to add in condition damage, we know that VoJ proccs every 5th hit and 400 condition damage adds 100 more damage to that procc. Its roughly 2% in overall dps or the equivalent of 30 power or 33 precision in a full celestial build. do a couple of damage rotations on the dummies in LA and scribble the numbers down and manually calculate the effect of crit damage and crit. Note how many burn proccs you got and voila you have all the numbers you need.

Brutaly.6257:

Aether the Nob.9172:

Actually, I was showing Brutally that celestial trinkets can compare with, and possibly out-do other trinkets in some cases. I was NOT looking to fight about my build, and,if anything, was looking for advice as to what gear celestial should be replaced with. Sounds like a discussion to me.

The builds you posted arent comparable since they have both different levels of healing power and also base damage.

Trinkets cant match the other stat combos, period. Any build with celestial trinkets can be made better. There is only one exception here and that is if you have strict thresholds that needs to reached but that is more of a psychological thing and have very little with performance to do. For instance when i run 0/5/30/30/5/ i just cant get out of my head that i have to dodge roll for at least 1k.

I havent said that celestial trinkets are much worse, they are only marginal worse but OP insists on stating the superiority of the build and gear. And since people read this they might get the impression that he is on to something and waste time and gold and get trinkets that wont be optimized.

If you want celestials i would go for the armor.

@OP
The site is very viable. Both the calculations for effective power (damage) and effective health (mitigated damage) are correct and for every thing you miss you can adjust that manually.

What i do agree on (if that is what you ment in your post) is that celestial gear benefits relatively more from guard kills and stacking sigils as long as we are talking about power.

Sidenote you can use that site to add in condition damage, we know that VoJ proccs every 5th hit and 400 condition damage adds 100 more damage to that procc. Its roughly 2% in overall dps or the equivalent of 30 power or 33 precision in a full celestial build. do a couple of damage rotations on the dummies in LA and scribble the numbers down and manually calculate the effect of crit damage and crit. Note how many burn proccs you got and voila you have all the numbers you need.

It’s much more than that as I’ve explained with BB(+0.2 condi scaling, compared to burning +0.25) and almost constant burning uptime with condition duration(imagine, you can also activate it, and then use Renewed Focus!). Well, I’d probably estimate around 25 power worth for every 100 condition points. Although the amount will change depending on many factors.
If you want celestials i would go for the armor.
Most certainly a given, and not just armor, weapon too, whereas accessories are debatable(and especially backpiece). Debatable does not mean they are worse. They are still providing a lot more stats than other trinkets would. As you’re saying these WvW/Sigil bonuses are only making it better, and that’s another reason for that.
Also, equal to 30 power or 33 precision?
And in what build did you calculate that power is better than precision?
It’s 100% true that Effective damage grows with power more so than with precision – at least in mine own build.
But what about might on crit(and other effects?) I’m 100% sure you haven’t included that in. 10% critical chance will increase the might stacks by 1.3(.3 from sigil and 1 from trait, but it might as well be not quite as noticeable), but that’s if the sigil/trait wouldn’t have a cooldown. Otherwise it’s pretty hard to say.

Evalia.7103:

Power is better the more precision&critical damage you have. Precision is better the more power&critical damage you have. Critical damage is better the more Power&Precision you get.

Points for point power is worth more than precision. If i remember correct 1 point of precision is worth about 0,91 points power given everything else equal. And budget wise its the same with the relation between precision and crit damage. Knights>Cavalier.

There is no discussion regarding how stats syneriges, the discussion is about what stat contribute the most, point for point which is the important part since you have a limited number of points to distribute in your build and the question is how to max the dps and maintaining survivbility, ie effective healthpool. Power>Precision>Crit damage and it will be even more evident after todays patch when ferocity is launched.

Or do you disagree with power>precision>crit damage?

And the number of stacks from crit change very little if you just reach to about 40% crit chance, the number of stacks are more prone to be increased with boon duration.

It can also be calculated and have been so in these forum and its a degressive relation after reaching a certain threshold. So as long everything else is equal between two builds (and in this example crit chance) the variable can be excluded from the discussion.

Brutaly.6257:

Evalia.7103:

Power is better the more precision&critical damage you have. Precision is better the more power&critical damage you have. Critical damage is better the more Power&Precision you get.

Points for point power is worth more than precision. If i remember correct 1 point of precision is worth about 0,91 points power given everything else equal. And budget wise its the same with the relation between precision and crit damage. Knights>Cavalier.

There is no discussion regarding how stats syneriges, the discussion is about what stat contribute the most, point for point which is the important part since you have a limited number of points to distribute in your build and the question is how to max the dps and maintaining survivbility, ie effective healthpool. Power>Precision>Crit damage and it will be even more evident after todays patch when ferocity is launched.

Or do you disagree with power>precision>crit damage?

And the number of stacks from crit change very little if you just reach to about 40% crit chance, the number of stacks are more prone to be increased with boon duration.

It can also be calculated and have been so in these forum and its a degressive relation after reaching a certain threshold. So as long everything else is equal between two builds (and in this example crit chance) the variable can be excluded from the discussion.

Please read again.
You didn’t get anything at all, now did you.
The difference between precision and power DPS gain is minimal. But precision provides you with more might stacks, vigor procs, and lifesteal procs(if you run lifesteal food).
Do you get the point now?

I do get what crit does, maybe check what i posted in these forums previous to this. You are doing the same thing you did previously versus Obal, judging with out knowing.

There is no contradiction in having both crit chance and power. The question when it comes to celestials is what contributes most to damage and what do celestial lack. You realize you can have both in a build without sacrificing the amount of power celestials do.

And i dont know if roughly 9% point for point is marginal, if you think its marginal is up to the beholder, for me its win or lose.

So once again do you disagree with power>crit chance>crit damage?