Guild Wars 2

We’re obviously looking at some nice changes for the Guardian class. What’s even more interesting are the changes to the Burn condition mechanics.

Burns Now Stack in Intensity
I predict that every 1 stack of burn will be equivalent to 2 stack worth of bleeds. That’s approximately 195 damage/sec with full condi amulet and condi runes. Guard’s damage modifiers may place this damage over 250.

Without damage modifiers or condi runes
Celestial burn damage at 1 stack: 128
Carrion burn damage at 1 stack: 178

The Buff
Burn applications of Engi, War, Ele and Guard will no longer conflict each other. Averaging out the burn stacks between these classes, there could be a potential 12 stack burst to a single target. Assuming at least 3 classes are Celestials, the damage of 12 stacks is about 1743 damage/sec for at least 3 seconds. This is a respectable boost compared to the usual 300/500/800 singular burning tick condition.

The Nerf
Engi and Guards usually only apply 1 long burn duration at 600 – 800 damage ticks. These single burn damaging skills/traits will instead deal 128 to 195 damage. That is, if they remain unaltered. I can only assume traits like Incendiary Powder and Judge’s Intervention will get their respectable burn stack ratios. One can only hope.

Then again, these traits could stay the same since Anet are giving us additional crit traits as well as items like Radiant Fire and Symbolic Power. 1-handed weapons will hit like zerkers thanks to the crit trait lineups. We’ll just have to wait and see how much beneficial these traits really are.

The OP
The first trait that came to mind was Permeating Wrath and Supreme Justice. Using Greatsword #2’s Whirling Wrath in a group of 5 people will yield 14 procs of Virtue of Justice. That’s an approximate aoe burst of 2730 damage/second from Burns alone. The damage potential from this synergy could directly compete with zerkers.

The above suspected information is subject to change depending on Anet’s merciful conviction. Regardless, the future patch could prove to be a buff to Hybrid Guardians and a birth to Carrion meta builds.

Hopefully they don’t decrease burning damage but instead limit it stacks to 3 for some nice 3k burn ticks.

guildabd.6529:

Hopefully they don’t decrease burning damage but instead limit it stacks to 3 for some nice 3k burn ticks.

Going off what we saw in the preview they already reduced the damage.

On the guardian that appeared to be wearing soldier gear it was doing around 130 per tick. (not sure if traits were selected yet so we can assume between 100-130ish per tick at base)

Later when we saw the necro it showed their burns doing over 350 per tick, however we did not see what gear the necro had on, it could have been rampager or carrion.

So how high it scales seems to work rather well.

The question is, how much will they look at each individual skill that applies burning and adjust it.
Unless the guardian has a way to stack up burning rather well on their own I doubt burn specs will remain in PvP.

However if things are handled right they could end up making condi guard or hybrid guards rather nice in PvP

Wow you can run farther away with all that speculation in your hands? You just dropped a bit on the ground, you have too much of it.

This situation makes me wonder, it could be a good thing if they ended up redesigning the sword into a hybrid weapon.

Or I suppose they could achieve the same results if they added allot more traits that inflict burning when triggered.

You say WW, I keep thinking about the faceroll burn damage we could apply with smite and the sword auto combined with those virtue traits.

Oh? Mace/Focus or Mace/Shield with hammer offset symbol burn build will provide MORE than enough burning from the looks of it. Especially if you take the symbol traits in the honor line. Zeal Radiance honor build…holy crap.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

guildabd.6529:

Hopefully they don’t decrease burning damage but instead limit it stacks to 3 for some nice 3k burn ticks.

Going off what we saw in the preview they already reduced the damage.

On the guardian that appeared to be wearing soldier gear it was doing around 130 per tick. (not sure if traits were selected yet so we can assume between 100-130ish per tick at base)

Later when we saw the necro it showed their burns doing over 350 per tick, however we did not see what gear the necro had on, it could have been rampager or carrion.

So how high it scales seems to work rather well.

The question is, how much will they look at each individual skill that applies burning and adjust it.
Unless the guardian has a way to stack up burning rather well on their own I doubt burn specs will remain in PvP.

However if things are handled right they could end up making condi guard or hybrid guards rather nice in PvP

I didn’t see the necro overview but looking at their traits it showed that Dhuumfire burning did (3s) 393. That’s only 131 damage a tick. Unless there’s something else i’m missing?

Saiyan.1704:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

guildabd.6529:

Hopefully they don’t decrease burning damage but instead limit it stacks to 3 for some nice 3k burn ticks.

Going off what we saw in the preview they already reduced the damage.

On the guardian that appeared to be wearing soldier gear it was doing around 130 per tick. (not sure if traits were selected yet so we can assume between 100-130ish per tick at base)

Later when we saw the necro it showed their burns doing over 350 per tick, however we did not see what gear the necro had on, it could have been rampager or carrion.

So how high it scales seems to work rather well.

The question is, how much will they look at each individual skill that applies burning and adjust it.
Unless the guardian has a way to stack up burning rather well on their own I doubt burn specs will remain in PvP.

However if things are handled right they could end up making condi guard or hybrid guards rather nice in PvP

I didn’t see the necro overview but looking at their traits it showed that Dhuumfire burning did (3s) 393. That’s only 131 damage a tick. Unless there’s something else i’m missing?

Looked at it again, your right the necro was using zerk gear and it was 393.

So burning is probably around 131 base.

Shadelang.3012:

Oh? Mace/Focus or Mace/Shield with hammer offset symbol burn build will provide MORE than enough burning from the looks of it. Especially if you take the symbol traits in the honor line. Zeal Radiance honor build…holy crap.

Your probably thinking of burning as it is now and not as it will be.

With it only doing 131 base and scaling being unknown guardian is going to need to have its abilities that apply burning looked at & adjusted.

Otherwise all you will have is decent number of ways to apply burning for 1-4 seconds which will not stack well.

I don’t regard the burning changes being proposed as anything but a nerf:

1. The high damage ticks are ideal to how burning is implemented on Guardian
2. Nothing I’ve seen so far is changing how conditions are cleansed, meaning that a lower damage, stacking burning will have less opportunity to do damage in the time they are applied than they do now.
3. Low Damage, stacking condition will require significantly more skills and focus to perform at a level burning does currently, leaving less room for other necessary skills.
4. Trait-wise, little has changed to improve burning builds.

Unless there is some amazing Specialization we haven’t seen, my prediction is that Guardian burning builds are going to suck. If Anet is trying to PROMOTE use of conditions through burning, they sure have a stupid approach to do so.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t regard the burning changes being proposed as anything but a nerf:

1. The high damage ticks are ideal to how burning is implemented on Guardian
2. Nothing I’ve seen so far is changing how conditions are cleansed, meaning that a lower damage, stacking burning will have less opportunity to do damage in the time they are applied than they do now.
3. Low Damage, stacking condition will require significantly more skills and focus to perform at a level burning does currently, leaving less room for other necessary skills.
4. Trait-wise, little has changed to improve burning builds.

Unless there is some amazing Specialization we haven’t seen, my prediction is that Guardian burning builds are going to suck

I agree. Assuming 1 stack will be 250 damage per tick with damage modifiers, they need to add 3 stacks to Judges Intervention and Purging Flames at the very least. Because lets face it only one of these skills will be going off at any one time thanks to heavy condi cleanses.

Judging by Permeating Wrath, F1 procs are going to stay the same =/ Since F1 can be buffed with the necessary traits, I just hope Anet does the right thing with our other burn utilities. Especially Tomb of Wrath’s #1. That skill needs 2 burn stacks.

I remain optimistic!

Lets see what they do. I see what you’re both saying, looks like it could get much less useful in some situations. But, at the same time it’s becoming far more useful in any situation where there’s someone else trying to burn the enemy as well. Pros and cons, pros and cons.

Shake it off!

Condi burst ruined.

I think that all heavy condition builds already will be nerfed with the new boon (resistence). If they nerf burning so much, there will be only power based builds in the game . This will kill the build diversity.

Mikau.6920:

I think that all heavy condition builds already will be nerfed with the new boon (resistence). If they nerf burning so much, there will be only power based builds in the game . This will kill the build diversity.

that’s how i see it to or almost like your view, but teamwork condi pressure or condi spikes will be required for a hard stack before it gets removed, it will require more clever play at least its how a see the condi stack change.
Conditions will be there to pressure targets and support damage, not to kill them by just find a way to stack conditions, somehting more like the behavior of conditions in gw1.

P.S: it wont kill build diversity, high condis is what kills build diversity imo, since every one trying to be heavy on condis or want their class to be good on heavy condis due the effectivess on solos or group condi bomb.

Im not sure where all this negativity is coming from, at least in pvp, i see condi hybrid for guard being pretty crazy…

First, the radiance line will now pretty much give us auto fury, + 25% extra crit chance alone on burning targets, also extra burn uptime and burn damage. and FREE ZEALOTS FLAME on crit

Then medi traits being combined for free fury and heal, and the extra smite condi on heal turning our shelter into a single condi clear, a channeled block that causes burning, and adding extra healing to it.

Meanwhile you still have a whole extra line to go into, meaning we can take virtues, get extra condi clear, a stunbreak+stability and free retal/aegis when stunned, and faster virtue activation. Or go into zeal if you plan on using a GS and get 10% extra damage to burning targets, Symbols causing burn/vuln and having targets take 20% extra damage while on them, and having the GS heal.

Add in that the stats on gear are getting boosted to make up for the lack of stats on the traits, and we can still use carrion but instead get even more condi damage compared to the old 6/x/6/x/x medi hybrid build.

I have a feeling they are trying to tone down pure condi builds and try to make condis supplementary to direct damage…something you use to enhance your build, rather than center it purely around condi damage.

As other people have pointed out, the nerf to burn base damage means they have to give us some new ways to cause burning just to make up the damage loss. Some suggested abilities like purging flames now giving 2-3 stacks of burn instead of 1.

Part of me want burn to make a comeback so with the new changes i can roll 0/6/6/0/6 with carrion amulet and enjoy 20k HP while retaining superior pressure compared to the old builds, but we never know how they are going to scale it.

Still, the options are there, we just need more info on gear scaling and ofc, our class specialization

I think the negativity is based on the idea that all that nice stuff is coupled to a seemingly crap condition, assuming Anet doesn’t flood our skills with lots of burning stacks and doesn’t change cleansing capabilities overall.

Obtena.7952:

I think the negativity is based on the idea that all that nice stuff is coupled to a seemingly crap condition, assuming Anet doesn’t flood our skills with lots of burning stacks and doesn’t change cleansing capabilities overall.

Will have to wait until we see final numbers but I don’t think the lack of added stacks is going to be to big of an issue, then again I already use torch in my burning builds and having normal zealots flame + on crit zealots flame i think is going to be able to stack enough on its own, let alone with VoJ and burn on block. Yes the damage overall is getting nerfed but keep in mind its a hybrid build, the fact that we are literally getting 45% free crit chance with a power/vit/condition amulet is pretty insane in terms of just raw damage, at least compared to our current hybrid builds. and once again add in that we will actually be getting more condi damage because its all coming from gear now instead of traits, our poison/bleed (doom/geo sigils) and also binding blades (assuming it still works on condi damage).

I’m not disappointing that it’s potentially better, I’m disappointed that this is what Anet came up with for integrating burning in our toolset. It’s almost something you can’t ignore now.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t regard the burning changes being proposed as anything but a nerf:

1. The high damage ticks are ideal to how burning is implemented on Guardian
2. Nothing I’ve seen so far is changing how conditions are cleansed, meaning that a lower damage, stacking burning will have less opportunity to do damage in the time they are applied than they do now.
3. Low Damage, stacking condition will require significantly more skills and focus to perform at a level burning does currently, leaving less room for other necessary skills.
4. Trait-wise, little has changed to improve burning builds.

Unless there is some amazing Specialization we haven’t seen, my prediction is that Guardian burning builds are going to suck. If Anet is trying to PROMOTE use of conditions through burning, they sure have a stupid approach to do so.

I’m going to assume that quite a few of our skills will apply a burst of stacks rather than just 1’stack. Zealot’s fire/flame probably applies 5 stacks, Judge’s probably 3, Purging probably 2 per each time the enemy crosses the ring. I’m hoping it’s that way anyway.

Saying that, we also have the ability to use Kindled Zeal x Amped Wrath which means 46% more damage to burning. Which is 191 base, based on what has been calculated by the Saiyan.

Bash.7291:

we will actually be getting more condi damage because its all coming from gear now instead of traits.

Based on what I understand, we will have less condi damage/stats in general than we have currently. Yes a lot of it is being moved to the amulet but, from what I gathered, we’re going to lose a bit on the way as well.

Dirame.8521:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t regard the burning changes being proposed as anything but a nerf:

1. The high damage ticks are ideal to how burning is implemented on Guardian
2. Nothing I’ve seen so far is changing how conditions are cleansed, meaning that a lower damage, stacking burning will have less opportunity to do damage in the time they are applied than they do now.
3. Low Damage, stacking condition will require significantly more skills and focus to perform at a level burning does currently, leaving less room for other necessary skills.
4. Trait-wise, little has changed to improve burning builds.

Unless there is some amazing Specialization we haven’t seen, my prediction is that Guardian burning builds are going to suck. If Anet is trying to PROMOTE use of conditions through burning, they sure have a stupid approach to do so.

I’m going to assume that quite a few of our skills will apply a burst of stacks rather than just 1’stack. Zealot’s fire/flame probably applies 5 stacks, Judge’s probably 3, Purging probably 2 per each time the enemy crosses the ring. I’m hoping it’s that way anyway.

Saying that, we also have the ability to use Kindled Zeal x Amped Wrath which means 46% more damage to burning. Which is 191 base, based on what has been calculated by the Saiyan.

We can guess all the stacks we want.

What I do know … everything that applies burning currently, will need 2.5 stacks to have equal to the burning damage potential we have now, assuming other factors like duration and condition damage stat/conversion stay equal. I am hopeful that the major skills meant to apply burning (VoJ/Torch) get 3 or 4 stacks.

Obtena.7952:

Dirame.8521:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t regard the burning changes being proposed as anything but a nerf:

1. The high damage ticks are ideal to how burning is implemented on Guardian
2. Nothing I’ve seen so far is changing how conditions are cleansed, meaning that a lower damage, stacking burning will have less opportunity to do damage in the time they are applied than they do now.
3. Low Damage, stacking condition will require significantly more skills and focus to perform at a level burning does currently, leaving less room for other necessary skills.
4. Trait-wise, little has changed to improve burning builds.

Unless there is some amazing Specialization we haven’t seen, my prediction is that Guardian burning builds are going to suck. If Anet is trying to PROMOTE use of conditions through burning, they sure have a stupid approach to do so.

I’m going to assume that quite a few of our skills will apply a burst of stacks rather than just 1’stack. Zealot’s fire/flame probably applies 5 stacks, Judge’s probably 3, Purging probably 2 per each time the enemy crosses the ring. I’m hoping it’s that way anyway.

Saying that, we also have the ability to use Kindled Zeal x Amped Wrath which means 46% more damage to burning. Which is 191 base, based on what has been calculated by the Saiyan.

We can guess all the stacks we want.

What I do know … everything that applies burning currently, will need 2.5 stacks to have equal to the burning damage potential we have now, assuming other factors like duration and condition damage stat/conversion stay equal. I am hopeful that the major skills meant to apply burning (VoJ/Torch) get 3 or 4 stacks.

Our skill’s aren’t going to receive additional burn stacks. Here’s why.

Five burn guardians each applying Judge’s Intervention at 2.5 stacks. Each guardian will do 875 burn damage = a burst of roughly 4375/second. In 2 ticks most cele classes’s health got cut in thirds. A thieve’s and glass builds just got their faces melted off. The guardian still has all his cd’s, F1 procs and passive blocks.

Another hint:
Inner Fire’s Fury proc on 3stack-of-burns trait. It’s not one of those traits that’s meant to happen immediately unless you proc multiple skills and or attacks. The trait is a global effect meaning anyone could apply 3 burn procs to a player. All you have to do is hit that player to receive the Fury. Having 1 skill that applies 2.5 or 3 stacks will yield this trait as OP, perma-fury, making it way too easy.

Judging by the said information, we’re going to have a single burn application of no less than 250 – and no more than – 350 with each skill offering a single stack of burns. That would leave us a burst potential of (F1 procs+JI+PF) of 3stacks = 750 to 1050. Preferably the latter. Sounds fair when you know burns from every other class now stack with each other. We have to play smarter with our Shelter and focus targeting to apply the necessary bursts and pray they don’t get cleansed right away.

Symbol+Permeating Wrath burn builds better be as good as I think they’re going to be. Permeating Wrath was always suppose to be thee group oriented aoe burn trait but the trait sacrifices was never worth it. Again, this is another indication that JI and PF are going to receive just 1 stack of burns.

The above also answered my question about symbol’s 33% burn procs. I thought 33% was way too low of a chance and that it had to be at least 50% or 66%. However, if two Guardians laid two 180 radius burn symbols, these alone could apply 3+ burn stacks on top of other damaging effects. I’m leaning towards a 40% burn proc rate instead.

Most of our skills will proc 1 stack burns. Now we have to see if durations and trait ICD will change at all. You would think it wouldn’t.

Looks like my hunch about us using traps were right :P

The active of the now SoJ will be a single firing spear that pulses burns on all targets hit. I’m curious about the pulse and burn duration. The burst potential could be devastating if done right.

Hybrid Condi Builds got a whole lot more interesting now that we have Traps that Bleeds. This substantially buffs Kindled Zeal.

Where Amplified Wrath is a no brainer, that leaves us with 1 tree to spec in. If we’re always in a 900 – 1200 range with Scepter/Staff in the off hand, we may not need the extra sustains from Valor or Honor lines.

Assuming Permeating Wrath changes to on-target effect and our Virtue Passives remain the same, Bow/Staff or Bow/Scepter DH will be the new Hybrid Meta for Guardians.

The longbow seemed to have blind, burning and an aoe immobilize skill which look pretty solid, Symbolic Power starts to look better now with the possible combined bleeds and low burning stacks

e: what runeset do you imagine running? balthazar? will be hard to give up on the traveler runes I was roaming with now

I’ve never used Trav runes myself because Hybrid guards don’t have to glue themselves to a target like Medi raw damage builds. I imagine, thanks to the extra peels and cc, that Trav runes wouldn’t be used in structured PvP as much. People will still use it for WvW, though. I personally swap to a weapon with speed sigils and build stacks of switfness from npc’s :)

The popular runes are

• Balthazar: The increased burn duration coupled with an aoe burn on heal effect makes this one of the popular runes for Hybrid builds.

• Flame Legion: The definition of Hybrid Guardian. Burn duration mixed with raw power. The 7% damage modifier is going to be exceptionally nice with other modifiers in the trait lines. After all, they stack multiplicative with each other.

• Fire: Burn stacking with the rune’s Fire Shield could be ridiculous. Especially in conjunction with Greatsword’s Leap+PF for yet another Fire Shield. Burn stacking just got real.

• Guardian Same as the above, but not nearly as effective. I felt obligated to mention it since burns now stack and we offer quite a bit of blocks. Especially now that Virtue of Courage is changing to Shield of Courage; granting a shield in front of you that blocks all attacks. The rune in general is for 1v1 builds.

• Krait: Mainly used for 1v1 specs for the huge condi burst. Traps will indeed be getting Bleed conditions. But unless those bleed conditions are 1-2s burst damage, Krait runes will otherwise not change in their position. it will likely get replaced with one of the above runes now that Burn stack.

It’s hard to say which rune i’ll personally use. I do like the thought of burn stacking with Fire Shields but that requires people to hit you XD.

Yeah I’m just addicted to the unremovable/corruptable +25 movement speed when it comes to WvW roaming, one of the problems they now bring for hybrid mediguard is the loss of 30% condition duration from Zeal, currently I’m running a celestial version of it and part of me is sad that it won’t probably work anymore after burnchanges, but the other part is happy with theories of new and possibly better builds