Guild Wars 2

Howdy, all. Arena Net keeps talking about how helpful the constructive feedback is, and, since I love my Guardian and really, really want to love the Dragonhunter even more, I present to you all (and hopefully to Karl, Irenio, and the other appropriate Devs, as well), my own constructive feedback on the DH, and, most importantly, some comprehensive ideas for improvement that maintain what seems to be the original theme for the class and idea for the traits. I’ll section things off and try my best not to be too wordy. (I have borrowed some ideas that others have posted. They remain excellent ideas, and I am agreeing with and seconding them, not trying to claim them as my own.)

BRIEF FEEDBACK

The Dragonhunter has the potential to be a very fun and interesting specialization to play, and it certainly has the ability to deliver on the promise of drastically changing the class’s original playstyle. The main (mechanical) problems it suffers from right now are: disorganization, lack of synergy (both in-spec and across specs), weak traits, and somewhat of a lack of focus (many of the traits/skills seem to have forgotten what the DH’s original intent was, and run counter to it). These problems are mostly what cause the spec to feel boring and lackluster to play, and, while they need to be addressed, I do not think that the necessary changes would be terribly difficult to make.

GUIDING THEME

The Dragonhunter is supposed to be a “Big Game Hunter,” of sorts: He excels at hunting down, predicting the movements of, and destroying large, dangerous prey (usually individually or in small numbers). Going with the idea that the best means of protecting the weak is to annihilate the evil, he has traded some of his defense and ally-support for offense. In return, he also gains access to two new conditions: Bleed and Cripple, along with more powerful, physical virtue manifestations.

VIRTUE MODIFICATIONS (SEE NEXT POST FOR OTHER SKILL MODS)

(Much) more on skills later, but for now, the main thing I am concerned with is the traits, since, to my mind, that was the most seriously flawed part of the spec. and the most in need of attention. With that said, it is necessary to keep a couple things in mind as you read the upcoming trait table:

Virtues
Spear of Justice: Probably only needs 900 range on the attack (although the tether should extend to 1200), and most certainly ought to apply any traited effects at the point(s) of impact, rather than on the player casting it.
Wings of Resolve: Should certainly evade during the leap, and probably needs to be 900 range.
Shield of Courage: Is one of the DH’s only survival abilities, and really should be instant cast— in part because of their other channeled/rooting skills.

Bow
There are (what I think are) some really great ideas for this in the second post, below. For now, at least keep in mind that the trait table assumes that LB1 has been modified to, in brief:
Be a three-hit chain (single-target) which applies a mild movement-speed reduction on the first two hits and a very brief, up-to-three target aoe blind on the third hit.

Now, the good stuff…

TRAITS

As a quick preface, I have tried to maintain as many of the original ideas as I could, although a few were combined because they were weak or scrapped because they ran entirely counter to the spec’s stated purpose and theme. I have purposely not included numbers for most of the traits, because that’s going to be up to the developers and based on play-testing. What I wanted was cool mechanics that could create interesting playstyles, synergy, and meaningful choices that could then be tweaked in relatively small and/or numbers-based ways for actual balance. (Rationale follows the traits.)

MINOR

MAJOR

Traps

Virtues

Longbow

Rationale
In general, I had two major purposes here: First, to make the traits thoroughly fit the Dragonhunter’s theme in a powerful and fun way, and, second, to create/allow as much synergy as I reasonably could (hopefully in an interesting way) between the DH’s various traits and between the DH and other Guardian spec lines. More thorough explanations follow:

Minors
One of the major problems with the DH spec currently is that it is a ranged class with almost no kiting ability, and a trapper class with almost no means of keeping enemies in its traps. Further, one of the stated goals of the spec was to allow Guardians access to bleeding and cripple, but, in its current state, the access to those conditions is both low in volume and extremely narrow in range. The minor traits I have suggested aim at fixing all of these problems, as well as adding even more encouragement and reward to the skillful and well-timed activation of the new virtues. With Hunter’s Ambush, no individual traps need to cripple/immobilize/knockdown on activation, and any permutation of traps may be used, while still ensuring the ability to cripple someone who falls into the ambush (and at the same time preventing too much cripple from one source). Likewise, it potentially aids the (already relatively slow) Guardians at kiting or avoiding an unhelpful or ill-timed engagement, since from out of the combat, the first bow shot will cripple. Chasing is similarly aided. These couple of minor traits fix a myriad of DH problems all at once, while perfectly fitting and fulfilling the theme.

Major
Some of these seem fairly powerful, but then, so are many of the Guardian’s other traits, as well as many traits on other classes and elite specs. I’m fairly certain that most of them could be balanced with the modification of numbers (stacks, duration, ICDs, etc.), though.

Traps
Multiple stacks of bleeding on activation, rather than per hit, helps balance the trait across the various traps; the main potential issue is the danger of stacking absurd amounts of it all at once. But then, traps are all about spikes, right? If instant bleed stacks looks like it will be a problem, then the alternative fix, as someone suggested below, would be to keep it as, “Traps hits apply bleeding” and simply modify all of the single-hit traps to pulse multiple times. This might actually be the better fix. Further, the Master trait enables the DH to reposition quickly after placing his traps, offers some help in kiting/escaping, and supports the idea the as soon as the trap fires on his prey, he’s ready to spike it down. The GM I envisioned as being called something like, One With The Light, bringing a number of other light-oriented things together with the traps in a harmonious way which, again, adds both damage and utility, as well as allowing the player some meaningful synergy choices with other specs lines and traits; my hope is that this one will certainly be implemented, and that a different symbol will be chosen for each trap (since that would make the choices even more meaningful). Faster Virtue recharge under retaliation seems to fit well with the symbols (since one applies it and they are all light fields) and fits the theme well, plus, it seems necessary, since for a trapper the activated virtues will be much more necessary to survival and success.

Virtues
Wings of Resolve is a desperation survival mechanic on a long cooldown; causing it to deal damage and immobilize is sort of boring, rarely worth it (since it will almost always be saved for the heal/condi cleanse), and almost impossible to balance, since, in order for the damage or immobilize to make using it worth it, the numbers would have to be unfairly high. By causing it to instead grant aoe stability and a couple seconds of self-quickness, the utility and original defensive/salvation-oriented purpose remains, but offense is also supported in a much more interesting manner. Now it’s possible to leap to your allies’ rescue with a quick heal that also momentarily protects them from control and then use the swiftness to either cast more heals/defense (even Signet of Courage, perhaps, for those courageous enough to run it), quickly lay down a couple powerful traps, interrupt an important skill, or otherwise turn the tide of battle, either defensively or offensively, depending on your build. It would also make it useful for peeling, chasing, spiking enemies caught in traps (esp. with The Hunt Must Go On), and so on. The uses are far more and allow much more meaningful and interesting play and choices than mere damage and immobilize. Next, traiting Shield of Courage for size seems silly: It should be a decent size for practical use, and that should be it. Duration and an occasional knockback, however, would be very welcome (and more interesting). The KB also allows synergy with the Longbow GM trait, and causes the shield to quickly give a desperate DH some breathing room. Big Game Hunter was already a pretty powerful GM, in terms of damage, but I did feels that it needed a little something extra, and allowing a Guardian to apply bleeding when applying vulnerability seems to be perfect. This way, there is access to a potentially significant amount of extra bleeding in a line other than traps, and it again offers potential synergy with other spec lines, weapons, and etc.

Longbow
The Longbow is not currently a terribly mobile weapon, and Guardians are not the most mobile class. Instead of complaining about that, I decided to try something different: Destroying the enemy’s mobility and rewarding the player more for being frequently rooted. Stability from True Shot was actually an interesting trait, and by adding regeneration on stability to it, actually using it is more rewarding, offers some of the only sustain available in the DH spec, and allows more across-spec synergy options, making it a much more meaningful choice. Likewise, Cripple on Blind makes sense thematically (of course you would move slower if you couldn’t see), fits their original trait name (“Dulled Senses”), and creates a large amount of cross-spec. and cross-weapon synergy. It gives not just one or two DH skills, but the Guardian as a whole access to cripple and opens up a variety of different builds. Further, it aids somewhat in the viability of the Healing Trap, since it blinds, making it possible to use it either offensively, to keep enemies in other traps, or defensively, to slow down a pursuer. Finally, I generally liked Heavy Light, as an idea, but its useful pieces were spread out and by itself it was too weak to merit a GM slot. It now acts as a general buff to the LB that also cross-synergizes with other weapons and skills (Banish, Bane Signet, the wards on the hammer and staff, Spirit Hammer, underwater sink/float skills, etc.), making it a much more powerful and meaningful choice.

Summary
In general, Traps are now usable and have the necessary mechanics to provide some utility and an incredible amount of spike damage, as they should. Virtues can be traited in meaningful and unique ways that also allow some interesting synergy and open up a variety of other interesting choices in builds and playstyles. The Longbow still lacks mobility, but that does somewhat fit the idea of a trapper class that snipes down its captured prey from hiding, and it now makes up somewhat for that by the ability to destroy a large amount of the enemy’s mobility.

see next post for skill changes

And now…
SKILL MODIFICATIONS

Longbow
The more I think about this weapon and its skillset, the more I actually like the general idea of it. I really have only one or two changes that I think are extremely important. Otherwise, so long as the glitches are ironed out, the numbers tuned, and the traits improved, it could be a really great weapon. Here are my ideas for improvement:

Puncture Shot (LB 1): The problem with this, mechanically, is that it runs totally counter to the actual stated purpose of the DH, which is to hunt down and kill single, powerful enemies (and also that it’s somewhat awkward to use). In a situation with a single enemy, you waste the bouncing effect and cannot get the cripple, which is what you actually need — thereby offering DH a cripple on auto-attack but making it actually impossible to use on-demand in certain situations (esp. PvP). Also, it feels like everybody else’s bow attacks. Instead, LB1 should be a 3-hit chain, with the third hit applying a very brief blind in a small aoe (which should then be able to be traited to “cripple foes you blind,” offering obvious synergy with other Guard skills). Now, that would be enough, I suppose, but if the developers are willing to put the effort into it, what I would really like to see would be this:
LB1: 3-hit chain. The first two hits deal single-target damage and apply one stack of Light’s Burden to target and nearby foes (3 target max, small aoe). Each stack of Light’s Burden slows the effected target’s movement (and attack?) speed by 10%. The third hit in the chain fires three homing light projectiles which track only to enemies effected by Light’s Burden. When they hit, these projectiles deal damage and destroy all stacks of Light’s Burden, causing further damage and inflicting a very brief blind. Around half or so of the damage from the third hit should come from the exploding stacks; this way, if there is only one target, all three projectiles will track to it alone for extra damage, but since there will still only be two stacks of Light’s Burden,
the damage will not be tripled. This would fulfill all the important things for DH Longbow 1 all at the same time: Better damage/improved effectiveness against single targets, synergy with traps, the crippling/hunter theme, and other Guardian traits, skills, and themes, the ability to provide some aoe control and damage, reliable effects that work when there is only one enemy.

Deflecting Shot (LB 3): Like others, I really don’t think what this skill needs is more damage: True Shot already supplies that, in an excellent manner, as it should. What Deflecting Shot needs is a more useful and interesting mechanic. To begin, it really ought to reflect, rather than merely destroy, and it would be especially ideal either way if it counted mechanically as a “block” (for the sake of synergy — this is actually a problem with a number of Guard skills which block things but don’t count as a “block”). As Noctis and others have suggested, what would be truly ideal would be for the projectile fired to be larger than it currently is and past, say, 300 range (or so) it would begin to drastically (and progressively) slow down in movement speed while expanding in width as it continues to move away. The best alternative to this, that I’ve seen so far, is the suggestion made by others that _Deflecting Shot would retain a similar movement speed and size to what it has now, but would leave a light trail behind for a short time which would also reflect projectiles. In this second case, when traited with the LB GM, this line could also cause KB, providing a number of interesting new ways to use the skill.

Hunter’s Ward: Really, I like this skill as it is. It would be even better coupled with the trait system I’ve suggested above, which allows a couple of other options for brief access to quickness, allowing it to be fired off fast enough to actually keep enemies in the traps. I do think 60 seconds is perhaps a little long on the recharge, but then, it is a rather powerful ability. Nevertheless, it has been suggested below that it would be a more interesting ability (and more fitting to the DH theme) if it functioned a little more like a trap, being able to be placed beforehand and then either triggered when enemies step on it, or even manually activated via a chain skill for that purpose. In this case, it would apply it’s fence on activation, pulsing cripple/damage afterward. This is an interesting and unique thought, and I could be on board with it — especially if it actually counted as a “Trap” skill type, allowing interesting cross-synergy with traits.

Traps
For the most part, these are actually kind of cool, and Light’s Judgement is aesthetically by far the coolest thing about the specialization (Oh, GW1 RoJ, how I missed you!). There are really only a few very minor tweaks that I would like to see made, which would make an enormous difference in the usefulness and viability of DH traps:

Purification: This should certainly cleanse all conditions from the player on the initial placement (especially given the other Guardian heals it has to compete with, which are all currently considerably more powerful in various ways). Probably, it should also cleanse them in an area around the player when it is activated — or, more interestingly, provide Light Aura and/or resistance to the player and all nearby allies when the trap is triggered. Or, it could apply resistance when placed and cleanse all conditions when activated. Also, the damage it deals is obviously insignificant, because it is so small. Possibly it could knockdown, immobilize, or do something else somewhat offensive/control related, to give the player a reason to bring it in place of other, much easier-to-use heals, and to better reward proper/diverse use of it?

Fragments of Faith: Here I add my voice to the others that say, this should be a stunbreak when placed. Also, since actually picking up the fragments is somewhat challenging in the middle of a difficult fight (and certainly harder than simply casting “Retreat!”), it would really make the use of a utility slot and the effort of grabbing the fragments much more rewarding (and fit the class) if they cleansed a condition on pick-up, as well as granting aegis.

Test of Faith: This trap sounds cool in theory, but in practice ends up being silly: It only cripples enemies once they’ve already escaped your traps, is easily avoidable with a simple, single dodge-roll (which is what the first reaction to being caught in traps is, anyway), and on its own does not even do anything to harm an enemy caught in it. I would love to see it changed to: create a fire field which pulses burn (low duration) on enemies caught in it and have the ring of swords function like Ring of Warding. Damage (in smaller amounts) and cripple could be applied to enemies who try to exit. If warding is too much, it should at least cripple on activation, be a fire field (“fires of trial” fit the “Test of Faith” theme, after all), and deal extra damage when enemies cross the threshold (or even immobilize them as they cross). This would make it actually fulfill its purpose of keeping people in your other traps, while also (with the fire field) giving it some other utility and synergy.

Procession of Blades: Should really be a whirl finisher, kitten many others have suggested. In combination with my other suggestions, this would also allow more condition damage, when placed over “Test of Faith,” or more condition cleansing, when used with the GM traps trait (“Traps spawn symbols”).

Dragon’s Maw: Is an elite and should stun. You just got eaten by a giant light-dragon; seriously, you would be a little stunned. Also, it should effect multiple targets with its status effects, if it doesn’t currently. Only offering a few brief seconds of slow (a condition which chronomancers can actually easily maintain on a target and also take advantage of with interrupts) is just far, far too weak for an elite skill. It definitely needs something: Stun, or a fire field, or pulsing 1/4 second dazes every second or two (to take advantage of the Slow), etc. On the other hand, it does also (theoretically, unless they have a teleport or Stability or Defiant…) hold enemies in place for 6 seconds. If it’s supposed to function mainly as a snare for the other traps, then it might be worthwhile to simply raise the damage (possibly make it pulse and/or include burning) and lower the cooldown to match that of the other traps. That way, it would be a “weak” elite, but it would be usable every time that you set up your other traps, making it mesh better with them and therefore more worthwhile to equip.

Epilogue
Those are pretty much my ideas regarding the Dragonhunter. If they were implemented, we would have a very interesting and unique specialization to play around with that would be fun and would mesh well with the rest of the guardian lines. It would offer multiple playstyle options and be, at least, much more viable than DH currently is, in both PvP and PvE. I really would love to hear some meaningful feedback on these suggestions, especially including better/alternative ideas for those that anyone disagrees with, and more votes for, “Yeah, [this idea] totally rocks!” from anyone who agrees. If we write enough, hopefully the developers will take note and implement at least some of these (or better ones). Thanks to those who have already replied, and to those who will!

A COUPLE QUICK REPLIES
I actually intended to keep the “bonus damage beyond 600 range” trait as part of the LB grandmaster, but forgot when I was originally typing this up. I have since edited it and added it in there, as well as the obviously necessary “20% faster recharge for LB skills.”

Honestly, given the ridiculously long recharge on Shield of Courage, I really don’t think that a knockback on melee attack (assuming an appropriate ICD per foe) is too powerful (especially considering some other class’s traits/skills). Nevertheless, if it really turned out to be too much, a couple other useful (although less interesting) options would be: Gain Protection for each attack you block or When the shield ends you gain Resistance, or something along those lines. Also, the weakness idea is a possibility.

I didn’t include a full condi cleanse on the trap trait because I think that a couple individual traps should offer that: The heal trap certainly should cleanse conditions, probably twice, and the fragments spawned by Fragments of Faith should also cleanse a condition. More on that later, though.

Spear of Justice is a fairly formidable skill now, especially if fully traited; it may well need a faster cast time than in this last BWE, but I don’t know that I agree with it needing to be instant. I would rather see its power raised, than a faster cast time; it should feel like a powerful, meaningful attack, now, rather than a quick buff for other attacks.

It may, honestly, make more sense to have the LB GM trait simply cause Deflecting Shot to KB (depending on what its mechanics end up being, and so on), rather than any LB arrow, if only because then it could be used when wanted, instead of feeling fairly random. Although, then it becomes more like the Ranger LB, which is I think what they’re trying to avoid (fairly badly, ATM).

I actually would have loved to find a way to put bleeding on the LB in a sensible way, but I was unable to find room for it in a way that was both thematically fitting and not obviously overpowered. I’m open to suggestions, though.

As for my trait suggestions being a complete rework and therefore unrealistic… Yes and no. In a way, they are, but I think that most of what I’ve suggested is fairly easy for them to implement (in that most of the necessary mechanics are there in various other traits and so on, so they aren’t entirely new concepts), and, further, even though the changes seem drastic, a good deal of what I’ve included is actually already a part of the DH spec — it’s just disorganized and too spread-out. And, to be perfectly honest, kitten very many others on here have repeatedly mentioned, the DH traits desperately need a serious rework, because as they are now the class will never be either interesting or competitive. I have only brought them onto a level with the other elite specs (I think. Possibly I went a little overboard on some. But if even some of the ideas somehow make it into the game or influence it in a positive way, it’ll be worth it.) Also, I don’t think it’s too late to suggest things like this; only one BWE has passed, and, given their attention to their players and their iterative design process, if they realize that the player base wants something like this and the spec needs it, they’ll implement it — just like they eventually did when they overhauled all of the core specializations.

I agree with the Evade during the leap of Wings of Resolve, it would also be hugely beneficial if it would be mechanically possible to have the condition cleanse apply to the Guardian on activation and to surrounding allies on landing.

I like your ideas with actually having themes across trait lines, the Dragonhunter traits are a random mess right now. Cripple on Knockback as a single Master trait is very weak and should probably join with Heavy Light.

Defender’s Dogma is an uninspiring and weak trait currently.

I’d like to see – Movement speed is increased by 25% or at least while wielding a Longbow.

I think Shield of Courage should block melee for the Dragonhunter too, but a knockback on each foe when they are blocked is too strong in my opinion.

We don’t have much access to Weakness, perhaps if Shield of Courage blocking melee is too strong it could apply Weakness to enemies that strike you in melee while active. No ICD but only low duration like 2-3 seconds per attack.

you are spot on with the condi cleanse on the trap trait. I wouldnt even limit it to movement condis. The lack of condi cleanse and stun break on traps is the reason they will see no game play in competitive scenarios and will always remain part of “fun builds”.

Honestly they should just change the trait heavy light to make traps more useful.

Then bake the knockback into deflecting shot.

As for dulled senses, make it trigger off of any knockback, knockdown, stun, daze, fear, float or sink the guardian does.

As for Piercing light, it should cause all attacks with bows, traps and swords to bleed.

Lastly spear of justice should be near instant cast.

Other then that I like your ideas especially the changes to zealot’s aggression & the others.

Asmodal.6489:

you are spot on with the condi cleanse on the trap trait. I wouldnt even limit it to movement condis. The lack of condi cleanse and stun break on traps is the reason they will see no game play in competitive scenarios and will always remain part of “fun builds”.

This ^.

@ the OP Also really like your idea about making traps create a symbol when triggered.
(hopefully with each trap creating its own corresponding symbol, protection, faith, etc…

In the process of trying to organize things, you’ve removed arguably the best trait DH had, 10% bonus damage beyond 600 range on the minor GM. Reducing the range on spear of justice below LB range makes no sense. Your new minor master trait is great, though.

The minor trap trait being on activation instead of on hit is notably worse for the one place it was potentially useful (Procession of Blades; edit and Light’s Judgement). I like Ragnar’s suggestion to have trap and bow hits apply bleed. Traps that deliver a single large blow should be adjusted to deliver more, smaller hits, to take advantage of this trait.

If longbow hits do not get bleeding, longbow 4&5 should both be adjusted to have an additional hit (same total damage). Longbow 5 cd should apply immobilize at the start and cd should be cut in half.

I’m with you for everything up to the traits. While they need tuning, your suggestions are practically a complete rework and unrealistic. Very cool ideas, but no way Anet’s going to completely redo dragonhunter this far into development. Suggestions should be slight alterations at this point.

Misguided.5139:

In the process of trying to organize things, you’ve removed arguably the best trait DH had, 10% bonus damage beyond 600 range on the minor GM.

10% bonus damage is the very worst Minor trait we can have.
The trait is bad by design, because it is Minor.

I can design bad traits too:
I want to design Traps to affect up to 5 foes, and have 28s recharge.
I then design Traps to only affect 3 foes, and have 35s recharge.
I make the first Minor trait “Traps now affect 5 foes”
and the second Minor trait “Traps now recharge 20% faster”.
Now, to actually equip Traps, I need to equip the Elite spec line, and those 2 Minor traits are auto-equipped. Therefore, everyone who is using Traps automatically affects 5 foes and have 28s recharge. There is no actual way to make them affect 3 foes with 35s recharge because the traits are Minor.
This means that I just stole 2 Minor traits from you, because I occupied the Minor trait slots with stuff that should just be baseline.
Therefore, you end up with 2 less traits by using the Elite spec.

Similarly, 10% extra damage on an Elite spec Minor trait falls under the same category.
1. Plan to design weapon with X damage coefficient
2. Actually design weapon with X-10% damage coefficient
3. Make Minor trait increase damage by 10%.
You now have 1 less trait because your Minor trait slot is occupied by something that should be baseline. Your 10% was taken away, then re-added in just to create a Minor trait.

This way, the dev does not have to actually invent any new/interesting traits, they can just steal from baseline.
Want an Elite spec weapon to cleave? Design it to not cleave. Make a Minor trait that now makes it cleave.
Want it to have 1200 range? Design it to have 900 range. Make a Minor trait that improves its range by 300.

Which is why this is bad design.

If however, 10% extra damage is a Major trait, then things are different. Because then the player has the “choice” to equip it or not.

Why not replace Spear of Justice’s passive to proc Hunter’s Ambush after x amount of attacks. Make the Master Minor trait reduce Virtue cooldowns by y seconds every time an enemy is affected by Hunter’s Ambush. Then Keep the GM Minor trait.

The problem with ‘<proc> after activating a Virtue’ is that Virtues have CDs that are too long. I think the Virtue Actives’ numerical values should be reduced so that they can be used more often. Such as, reduce the healing of F2, reduce the duration of F3… F1 can stay because it doesn’t do too much atm. I think if Virtues were given a low enough CD and prompted players to use them more often, it’d contribute to a different playstyle.

F2 would mainly be used for the mobility (and maybe even the immob/damage if the trait stays), amplifying the offensive nature of DH.
F3’s cone, I think, should be a PBAoE circle with a radius of 100 units that lasts for 2s. Make it instant cast. Make it pulse Aegis for 2s every 1s. Make it block projectiles.

I think the Passives should just be removed from DH Virtues entirely. Hunter’s Ambush would make F1 have a passive through traits, but the stronger actives of F2 and F3 would be worth trading the passives. You get a stronger, crucial, and more meaningful block with F3. You trade passive health regen that would be used to help run away from fights for a mobility skill that can be used to leap away from fights.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Misguided.5139:

In the process of trying to organize things, you’ve removed arguably the best trait DH had, 10% bonus damage beyond 600 range on the minor GM.

10% bonus damage is the very worst Minor trait we can have.
The trait is bad by design, because it is Minor.

(Snip)

Which is why this is bad design.

Except the trait in question applies to damage dealt to enemies beyond 600 and isn’t bow-specific. Scepter says hi. And I don’t believe they removed 10% from base to put it there. It is intended (in my opinion) to reward skillful play by keeping targets at a distance.

Edit: At any rate the point is moot, since it has been added back in. Edit again: (except it hasn’t, since it has been placed on a GM major, forcing a choice between that and big game Hunter, making this effectively a nerf).

There are many ways to deal damage at >600 range without using Longbow. Like WoR, Scepter, Hammer, Focus, Torch, Sword, Walking 600 away from a trap, etc. It rewards kiting, something the Guardian wasn’t able to do.

I did like some of the ideas though. The ideas behind the proposed minors were interesting, as were some individual trait ideas. However I wouldn’t enjoy the new traits as a whole. An entire line dedicated to Longbow and traps each is unnecessary, and doubly so for virtues, add they have their own specialization. At least it was more interesting than most overhauls.

@RebornbyFire/OP
Robert Gee, is that you in disguise? Have you come to save Dragonhunter? :p

Hehe, in all seriousness though RebornbyFire, I really like your proposed rework. There’s alot there and it seems very well thought out, kudos too on resisting the urge to go overboard, for the most part everything seems like it would be quite balanced with just a few tweaks here and their, and your proposals improve the synergy with the rest of Guardian ten-fold over what we currently have with Dragonhunter, I’m really impressed.

It’s a shame that, while it does keep alot of the themes that Dragonhunter introduced, it is still quite a large overhaul and as a result it’s probably highly unlikely ANet would change the Dragonhunter that significantly at this point in time. But I guess we can try to hope for the future, post-release HoT though, at least, right?

@Ghotistyx
There’s not really many significant ways to deal damage at over 600 range with Guardian though, including some of the stuff you mentioned actually wouldn’t work (for example, you mention Sword – the longest range ability on Sword is 600 range, it does not go beyond that so it does not benefit from the trait, even if it was 700 range it would be very hard to take advantage off).

Let’s see…you’ve got Longbow, Sceptre, and Traps. Other than that, it’s just scattered skills – Hammer 3, Staff 2+3 (Staff 1 is, once again, only 600 range so does not benefit), Torch 4B, Focus 4, then the odd Signet. Damage modifiers don’t usually affect Conditions so Purging Flames wouldn’t benefit either. That’s it really. The thing all these abilities have in common is that they are really low damage anyway (with the exception of Torch 4B), and as a result, a 10% increase on just one or two already very low damage abilities is incredibly insignificant.

For it to actually be useful to pre-existing Guardian stuff (except Sceptre/Torch, again), it would need to be a significantly higher damage bonus seems as it’s really only affected one or two weak skills. You are probably talking 30%+ to make any real difference (which would then become OP with Sceptre/Torch, Longbow and Traps).

I get that it works for Traps, which the specialization line comes with, but it’s very niché and as a result, has little synergy with currently existing Guardian stuff, which is what people are complaining about. That sort of thing works as an optional trait, in one of the major traitlines, but not one you are forced to take, essentially wasting a potential minor trait slot.

As a sidenote though, Guardian does seem to be cursed with this sort of thing consistently. Look at how the Sceptre specific trait is in Zeal, a line where the Minor Traits offer Symbol bonuses, when the Sceptre does not have access to Symbols (nor do any off-hands), essentially wasting the traits if you were building your character around Sceptre usage or taking the 1H Sword as your other weaponset.

Ghotistyx.6942:

There are many ways to deal damage at >600 range without using Longbow. Like WoR, Scepter, Hammer, Focus, Torch, Sword, Walking 600 away from a trap, etc. It rewards kiting, something the Guardian wasn’t able to do.

I am not denying that the trait itself is good, the problems come from the fact that it sits in the position of an Elite-spec Minor trait. If it was a Vanilla Minor trait, there would be no issue. If it was an Elite-spec Major trait, there would also be no issue. This is a very specific issue.

You cannot equip a Longbow, Traps or Dragonhunter Virtues without equipping the Dragonhunter trait line. Therefore, you cannot equip any of the above without actually having Pure of Sight equipped as well because it is Minor.

1. So if you wanted to base a build on say Greatsword+Hammer with Traps
(this can actually work because GS has pull and Hammer has Immob+Ward)
You automatically lose this trait’s effect(extra 10% damage) unless you run beyond 600 range of your traps, in which case you lose your GS or Hammer attack damage, thereby completely defeating the purpose of the build.
This is counter intuitive.

2. This trait never works with Soaring Devastation. Period. Perhaps there are builds that include Pure of Sight and not Soaring Devastation, but there is no possibility of having Soaring Devastation without Pure of Sight because it is Minor.
This is also counter intuitive.

3. It has no additional effects other than increasing Longbow damage by 10%, and only beyond 600 range.
i) Saying that Staff benefits from this trait is like saying your Guardian is trying to do damage with a Staff…I dont have to comment any further on this.

Misguided.5139:

Except the trait in question applies to damage dealt to enemies beyond 600 and isn’t bow-specific. Scepter says hi. And I don’t believe they removed 10% from base to put it there. It is intended (in my opinion) to reward skillful play by keeping targets at a distance.

ii) The Scepter used to have a trait called Scepter Power that increased Scepter damage by 10%, which was removed during specialization patch. This is just half a replacement on our previous trait, because it only works beyond 600 range. It was placed in a line that favors the other ranged weapon, the Longbow. Said trait line has no other trait that synergise with the Scepter.
(It is hard to actually hit a target beyond 600 range with the Scepter’s slow auto-attack) <Edited to remove sarcasm because some people really didnt get it…>

In the case of the Longbow, it is comparable to stealing someone’s lunch money behind their back, then buying them lunch when you see them hungry.
In the case of the Scepter, it is comparable to taking away someone’s candy, then giving it back to them half-licked.

The point still stands that this is bad design. What is bad design is not the trait’s effect, but its actual position as an Elite-spec Minor trait. This trait should just be moved to Major, or given an additional effect.

Don’t kid yourself. Pure of Sight was absolutely made with longbow camping in mind. Scepter is too slow to be effective beyond that range and no other Guardian weapon can deal consistent damage from that far away. It’s a poorly designed trait used as an excuse so that real effort wasn’t required to think of something actually imaginative.

The entire traitline kind of assumes that you just want to play bow/traps and don’t care about any of the stuff we already have that’s actually any good, which is one of the reasons why people hate it so much.

I rather have wards than traps…

We have tons of these threads with suggestions. But they paid no mind. They only responds to cute threads like “we need better sound effect” or “thanks so much for …” or “we’ll update your stickies”, and completely ignoring threads that point out their screw up in bugs, design flaws. While i appreciate people take time to write these walls of text, given how engaging the guardian’s derv are, i would say lets save our time until they got a different derv team.

Honestly guys, the point of this post is to take what they’ve stated as the actual themes/purpose of the Dragonhunter, its skills, and its trait lines and offer some serious and well-thought-out suggestions for improvement in a positive manner that do not include: Obviously overpowered suggestions, insults to the developers, or pointless complaints. Try to stay positive; the class has the potential to be awesome, even if it will never be everyone’s favorite (but no class or spec can be that).

What I do really appreciate are those of you who have responded with actual feedback on the trait/skill ideas I’ve suggested. If anyone disagrees with something, by all means, offer a suggestion for improvement/modification/etc. Try to keep in mind the DH’s guiding themes, though, rather than whatever your currently preferred Guardian playstyle is.

Also, if you like the ideas, by all means, add your voice in favor of one or some or all of them. ANet does, after all, read the forums, and who knows? If enough of us like an idea, they just might like it, too.

(Also, @KoTCR, thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it.)

Ezrael.6859:

I’d like to see – Movement speed is increased by 25% or at least while wielding a Longbow.

I agree, one of these traits needs a passive 25% ooc movement speed. Its crazy that Guardian does not have any access to OOC movement speed other than staff or retreat.

RebornbyFire.7913:

Longbow
The more I think about this weapon and its skillset, the more I actually like the general idea of it. I really have only one or two changes that I think are extremely important. Otherwise, so long as the glitches are ironed out, the numbers tuned, and the traits improved, it could be a really great weapon. Here are my ideas for improvement:

Puncture Shot (LB 1): The problem with this, mechanically, is that it runs totally counter to the actual stated purpose of the DH, which is to hunt down and kill single, powerful enemies (and also that it’s somewhat awkward to use). In a situation with a single enemy, you waste the bouncing effect and cannot get the cripple, which is what you actually need — thereby offering DH a cripple on auto-attack but making it actually impossible to use on-demand in certain situations (esp. PvP). Also, it feels like everybody else’s bow attacks. Instead, LB1 should be a 3-hit chain, with the third hit applying a very brief blind in a small aoe (which should then be able to be traited to “cripple foes you blind,” offering obvious synergy with other Guard skills). Now, that would be enough, I suppose, but if the developers are willing to put the effort into it, what I would really like to see would be this:
LB1: 3-hit chain. The first two hits deal single-target damage and apply one stack of Light’s Burden to target and nearby foes (3 target max, small aoe). Each stack of Light’s Burden slows the effected target’s movement (and attack?) speed by 10%. The third hit in the chain fires three homing light projectiles which track only to enemies effected by Light’s Burden. When they hit, these projectiles deal damage and destroy all stacks of Light’s Burden, causing further damage and inflicting a very brief blind. Around half or so of the damage from the third hit should come from the exploding stacks; this way, if there is only one target, all three projectiles will track to it alone for extra damage, but since there will still only be two stacks of Light’s Burden,
the damage will not be tripled. This would fulfill all the important things for DH Longbow 1 all at the same time: Better damage/improved effectiveness against single targets, synergy with traps, the crippling/hunter theme, and other Guardian traits, skills, and themes, the ability to provide some aoe control and damage, reliable effects that work when there is only one enemy.

Shut up and take my money, the AA really sounds amazing, when i read it, the first thing that come to my mind is the hunter bolt of the magick archer in DD

RebornbyFire.7913:

GM Longbow arrows knockback enemies in close range (ICD). Enemies you control (knockback, knockdown, stun, etc.) are crippled. You deal 10% extra damage to enemies beyond 600 range. Longbow skills recharge 20% faster.

kb should never be automatic. some people suggest that only the Deflecting shot should kb when enemies are within the range threshold so you can control the knock backs

I think I’ve been through all the reasons why some of the Dragonhunter traits are bad. If they haven’t seen that feedback then sure, I’ll be happy to go through it again;

- Only traps causing Bleed doesn’t give the Dhunter much synergy with other parts of the Guardian’s kit. We need other ways to cause bleed because the Guardian is pretty bad at condi layers atm.

- The last Trait overhaul consolidated a lot of traits but the Dragonhunter feels like it was created before the overhaul with several traits feeling like they could easily have been merged. Traits like all the traits that effect virtues, Dulled Senses and Heavy Light.

- Our minors don’t synergize with each other AT ALL. Defender’s Dogma and Pure of Sight? No synergy there. Pure of Sight should be merged with Hunter’s Determination and something else should take it’s place in the minor GM slot.

@Dirame I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said here (and when you’ve said it elsewhere); that’s why I went to all the trouble of thinking up and writing out and sharing the whole trait rework and skill modifications in the original two posts. So the question here is, what do you and others think of those ideas, both individually and as a collective whole. Because if we get enough positive votes and/or enough creative and constructive feedback in one place, the developers just might notice and implement some of it, or at least something similar. I felt that my rework addressed and fixed all of the issues you’ve mentioned and more; what do you think?

@Noctis Hah, thanks for the vote of confidence on the LB auto-attack; I’m really happy with the idea, too. Both in playstyle and aesthetics, it would feel much different and much more fitting for the Guardian and interesting in general. I would really love for that, if nothing else (or something very similar) to make it into the game. And Karl did actually post that LB1’s functionality was being looked at, so maybe he (or Irenio, or someone else) will come check this out and likewise love it.

As for KB being automatic from the LB GM trait… That’s kind of how I feel (I mentioned it somewhere, I think in the rationale section), but I was trying to keep all of the ideas I could from the current/original DH trait setup, and that’s how it is in there. Also, if KB is only put on Deflecting Shot, then there will be the problem of it needing to move quickly to be a useful KB, but needing to move slowly to be a better shield; I’m not entirely sure how best to deal with that issue. Thoughts?

Dirame.8521:

I think I’ve been through all the reasons why some of the Dragonhunter traits are bad. If they haven’t seen that feedback then sure, I’ll be happy to go through it again;

- Only traps causing Bleed doesn’t give the Dhunter much synergy with other parts of the Guardian’s kit. We need other ways to cause bleed because the Guardian is pretty bad at condi layers atm.

- The last Trait overhaul consolidated a lot of traits but the Dragonhunter feels like it was created before the overhaul with several traits feeling like they could easily have been merged. Traits like all the traits that effect virtues, Dulled Senses and Heavy Light.

- Our minors don’t synergize with each other AT ALL. Defender’s Dogma and Pure of Sight? No synergy there. Pure of Sight should be merged with Hunter’s Determination and something else should take it’s place in the minor GM slot.

Defender’s Dogma in particular seems out of place.

How about bleed chance on crit for the adept minor and replace the master with “when you apply bleed to your opponent, also apply vulnerability” or something of that nature? That way, it is useful with whatever weapon you like and gives a benefit to power builds. Or maybe the bleed on crit for master and put the other on a major trait.

Edit: said major where I meant master

RebornbyFire.7913:

As for KB being automatic from the LB GM trait… That’s kind of how I feel (I mentioned it somewhere, I think in the rationale section), but I was trying to keep all of the ideas I could from the current/original DH trait setup, and that’s how it is in there. Also, if KB is only put on Deflecting Shot, then there will be the problem of it needing to move quickly to be a useful KB, but needing to move slowly to be a better shield; I’m not entirely sure how best to deal with that issue. Thoughts?

i dont know if it possible to do it but my idea is to make that the lb3 projectile speed/ missile velocity decay/decline after reaching certain amount of distance.

Example: from 0 to 300 range the projectil speed will be the same as the bw1 once Deflecting Shot reach 301+ range the projectile speed will start to decrease incredible fast up to 75%

@Noctis I think I really like that idea. To make it even more interesting, and also compensate for the drop in movement speed, what if it also expanded in width as it slowed down? That way, in close quarters, it would be a quick, targeted knockback/blind, with the chance to block a projectile, and at longer distances it would be a slower-moving, expanding shield with the ability to KB anyone too lazy to strafe far enough out of the way.

I’m glad you liked my idea, now we shall pray to the six gods and drink until the dev hear our prayers and make our dreams come true. because only the gods can help us.

One part of me is telling me that no matter how many good idea we give them in the end the result will be the same but I have hope that I’m wrong and the devs will rework or change some traits and lb skill like the true shot root (I really hate the root animation in spvp or wvw, i have some idea how to make it more flexible in pvp without removing the root, like making true shot into a sequence skill the first will root for 1/2s to charge the skill and when you active the second part you will release the shot but it will root you for 1/4s, so you can charge it before combat or behind some walls without the risk of being cc chain or burst down so easily), the AA (I really like the idea of having homing light projectiles which track down enemies), the Deflecting Shot and some traps. i dont know why they are trying to change some damage values when the problem isnt there. only time will tell.

Sorry for the long post

Thank for the well organized and constructive effort .. I’d recommend updating the op with the alternatives discussed so the debs can see everything in one post instead of scanning through the three to find the good feedback. Just my 2 cents .

Been discussing this class a bit over on the subreddit and wanted to get some time in over here as well. I think the biggest issue with the Dragonhunter is a lack of playtime for many. This does not, in any way, strike me as a traditional ranged archetype, and because of that we haven’t had enough time to explore its intricacies. New types of encounters in the BWE suggest that we don’t yet know the value of some of these decisions. But I’ll get into that more in a bit.

The reason I say it doesn’t seem to be a traditional ranged class is that a lot of the criticism I see leveled at DH revolves around the idea of a ranged weapon being paired with what folks call “melee” traps. They feel a lack of cohesion here. The first misconception is that traps should only be used as a melee damage boost, dropped at your feet while ignoring the deep positioning and territory control concepts the skills possess. In just a few small examples in the first BWE, we can see that many of the open world encounters require mobile solutions. The fights aren’t entirely tank and spank any longer. Smokescales, Stoneheads, Pocket raptors – each one has a component that encourages different tactics. Stacking in melee to offload a bunch of traps isn’t going to be the best option.

Which brings me to the second great misconception of the DH – that a ranged weapon should always focus on keeping things at range. That doesn’t need to be the case, and the longbow shows us this. Just like traps, the abilities on the longbow are all about positioning and territory control. Puncture Shot and True Shot thrive on great positioning with the former providing skilled players with a guaranteed slow so you can effectively kite targets to where you want them to be. Everything about this spec appears to be designed around controlling the battlefield under the premise that you aren’t meant to keep things at range, just control them there. You have control over where an enemy is going and who it is allowed to hit. Then, when they inevitably reach you or allies in melee, it’s on your terms.

In that way, I think the weapon abilities and trap utilities successfully fit that purpose.

^ This absolutely. Dragonhunter doesn’t just offer guardians a ranged weapon and playstyle. What it really offers is an incentive to kite, something we haven’t had before and that we suffered from. Longbow is our means to kite, and traps are our positions we kite around. It’s not just about having another ranged weapon, or damaging utilities, but a whole new play style being available. And that’s exactly what elite specializations were designed for.

@Lemondish

Really interesting take on what the DH is or should be. Reading your description, I couldn’t help but think that a taunt on Longbow as a soft control would be really cool.

What would you guys think about turning LB 5 into a deployable “trap” based on this idea, meaning something you could cast pre-emptively as part of an ambush?

@Misguided the idea of making lb5 into a deployable trap or maybe a remote activation trap sounds really nice and it will fit very well with the dragonhunter theme

Noctis.3426:

@Misguided the idea of making lb5 into a deployable trap or maybe a remote activation trap sounds really nice and it will fit very well with the dragonhunter theme

Thanks, I’m just piggybacking off of what Lemondish said. I could see setting a trap, hitting an enemy with a cripple and a taunt from range, then dropping back, firing LB 5 on the trap location to immobilize it on top of the trap.

A number of people have said that the DH spec seems disorganized or counter to what a guardian is supposed to be, but that description Lemondish gave above leads to all sorts of neat ideas.

@Lemondish and Ghotistyx: I totally agree with your summary of the DH’s purpose as a spec, and I’m actually excited to have that sort of play style opened up to me, especially on my Guardian. It’s actually one of the only two (along with the Reaper) Elite Specs so far to actually deliver on the promise of providing a totally different way to play the class (the others are definitely awesome, just not terribly different from the normal play styles of those classes). In spite of the good things about DH and the potential for a unique playstyle, you have to admit that the traits are mostly boring and/or counterproductive (to the DH’s stated purposes), the traps could use a little work, and it is more than a little silly that on a class focused on hunting large, powerful prey, the AA cripple is impossible to apply when there is only a single target (which happens frequently, both in PvE and PvP). If nothing else, the DH spec should certainly open up a few more options for cripple and bleeding than it currently does, preferably in a way that synergizes with other things Guardians can do, and it could use some traits that are more impactful in a mechanical way (not just in a “bigger damage numbers” way).

Therefore, I purposely tried to come up with some comprehensive suggestions for reworking things that would retain the actual purpose and unique nature of the DH, while at the same time strengthening its strengths, creating more synergy, and opening up a number of interesting options to DH players. I purposely avoided the generally popular “Make traps ranged,” “get rid of traps,” “give me permanent move speed increase,” etc. complaints that ignore the actual point of DH. I’m actually very curious: What did you think of my ideas (particularly the new traits, esp. minor and the “traps spawn symbols/faster virtue recharge while under retaliation” GM) as they relate to the purpose of the DH, which you’ve picked up on pretty well? If there’s something you disagree with, what would you change and how?

@Misguided and Noctis: LB5 into a “trap” (sounds more like the Necro’s staff “marks,” really) could be pretty neat, and would fit the theme. It would also allow/encourage a new and more unique/interesting animation for it. Could also create some interesting cross-synergy with the traits if it actually counted technically as a trap.

I didnt read if it was already said, but I think your traits have a problem.
Your adept and grandmaster major traits are useless if you dont use LB and traps.
While you will likely use LB or traps if you play DH, i think you should have the freedom to not use them. In fact, I’m sure we will find melee traps builds and LB non-traps build. With your traits, they will be ineffective.

If all spec would work like that, it would be ok, but in other spec you are never forced to use specific weapons or skills.
It is also a problem with the current beta traits, because Pure of Sight forces you to use a range weapon. It is unfair and should be reworked.

@Rebornbyfire yeah, I deliberately put trap in quotes since I wasn’t sure what having it be considered an actual trap would mean. But regardless, allowing it to be setup prior to use might help assuage the “make traps ground targetable” camp (which I am not opposed to but don’t think will happen…can you imagine the uproar (with good reason) from Rangers?), remove some of the issues the skill currently suffers from (in my mind, the immobilize would start as soon as the trap triggered), and fit the theme that was being discussed really well. Doesn’t matter to me if they call it a trap or not.

MINOR
Master: Hunter’s Ambush: Your first strike upon entering combat inflicts cripple and bleeding.

• I’d switch bleeding with torment. With reasonable stack sizes, cripple and torment is a big middle finger to kiting.

GM: The Hunt Must Go On: Activating a Virtue refreshes your Hunter’s Ambush

• It’s super close to Ranger’s Marksmanship line, but I like the idea a lot. The minors would definitely fit the theme at the risk of drawing even more comparisons to Ranger.

MAJOR
Traps
Adept: Traps cause bleeding (? stacks) on activation. Traps recharge 20% faster.

• I thought 20% recharge on traps was going to be a pipe dream, but they added it as an intended change along with the previous CD shuffling in the beta weekend. This becomes a fantastic trait (if anyone was wondering, Longbow definitely doesn’t need a cd reduction trait. It’s been designed with -20% already in mind).

Master: Placing a trap grants you swiftness and removes movement-impeding conditions. When one of your traps activates, you gain quickness (ICD).

• this is too heavy, trying to do too much at once. I’d probably change it to apply chill on trap activation. That would make it easier for traps to land their nasty effects, and provide more impactful area control.

GM: Traps summon a symbol and grant you retaliation when activated. While you are under the effects of retaliation, your virtues recharge faster.

• same as above, way too much going on. The damage potential with 8 symbols and effectively 5 traps (Purification doesn’t do notable damage) is a big ridiculous. In pvp or wvw it might be much more difficult to pull off, but in pve especially that’s stupid amounts of things happening, especially with Zeal/Honor/DH. I’d change it to… Activated traps remove 2 conditions? I’m not entirely sure what might be a better replacement, but I think a support option would be worthy of the GM slot. Traps usually aren’t taken for support. Maybe pulsing resistance for the duration of the trap.

Virtues
Adept: Wings of Resolve grant you quickness (2 sec.) upon landing, and apply stability to you and all nearby allies.

• more quickness and stability? That’s asking a lot. I’d leave Soaring Devastation as it is and add a blast finisher to the landing. SD can hit for a lot, and the immob is going to be even better. Absolute Resolution is there for the condi removal, and it already heals, so blasting fields would be the next best supporty option.

Master: Shield of Courage lasts longer. When it blocks a melee attack, it also knocks the attacker back (separate ICD for each foe).

• I kind of like the idea. I’d change it to an aoe knockback on a 1-2s icd in the direction of the shield. This gives you and allies more breathing room, and options for precise area control. You’ll see in a second there won’t be synergy with this trait and the LB master one. I’m not sure how I’d reconcile that. However, it would synergize with the LB GM.

GM: Striking an enemy tethered by Spear of Justice deals 10% more damage and causes vulnerability. Bleed foes when you inflict vulnerability.

• Doesn’t seem drastically better than current BGH. If we keep your theme with my previous commentary, then why not “SoJ pulses torment. Deal 10% more damage to tormented foes”. This would synergize with the minors and provide a more single target condition alternative to Permeating Wrath.

Longbow
Adept: True Shot grants stability for each enemy struck. When you gain stability, you also gain regeneration.

• Dunno if the regeneration is necessary. With the proposed stab duration increase, this trait seems fine. It can completely replace SYG for personal stab.

Master: Cripple foes that you blind (ICD). Deal more damage to crippled foes (7%).

• I see what you tried to do with Puncture Shot and this trait, but I’d rather keep the original PS. The cripple application is probably even less reliable. Just the damage mod is fine for now.

GM: Longbow arrows knockback enemies in close range (ICD). Enemies you control (knockback, knockdown, stun, etc.) are crippled. You deal 10% extra damage to enemies beyond 600 range. Longbow skills recharge 20% faster.

• Another trait that’s too heavy. No -20% is needed (unless people really want 3.2s True Shots. True Shot is likely getting something like a 20%-30% damage increase. That would be crazy). I’d move the " controlled enemies are crippled " portion to the master trait, leaving the arrow knock back and 10% damage >600 portion for the GM. The knockback distance is proposed to be 240u. I’d increase the distance threshold to knockback to 600u or less. This should help you keep enemies in your extra damage range.

I’m not even sure I’d want all of my own changes in, but this is my commentary on the OP’s proposed changes.

@Ghotistyx: I’m glad you like the minor trait ideas — in spite of their similarity to the Ranger’s “Opening Strike,” (and now the Berserker’s similar mechanic), I think functionally it would feel different, and it solves a great number of current DH problems all at the same time, as I mentioned in the OP. I actually like several of your ideas, as well, particularly the ones regarding Torment in place of bleeding. A couple issues, though:

• The first is that, as great as Torment would be in those places, part of the stated theme for the Dragonhunter was that they would allow Guardians access to Bleeding and Cripple; since I wanted my rework to be as centered around the original themes as possible, I was sort of forced to use Bleeding. Part of the reason for that, as well, is that as it currently stands, DH does indeed allow access to bleeding, but it’s incredibly narrow: Only one trait allows one type of utility to apply it, which means that it has no real synergy with anything else. One of my intended goals was to continue the “give Guards access to bleed/cripple” theme while broadening it into something with broader access that allowed some choices in where/how/when/in what quantity those conditions would be applied.
• This is also the reason for my addition to BGH (“Apply bleed when you apply vuln”), and my modification of Dulled Senses (“Apply Cripple when you apply Blind”): By allowing automatic application of Cripple/Bleed on entering combat and then tying further application of those conditions to other conditions other Guardian skills and traits already apply, I’ve created (hopefully in a fair way) the broader synergy with Guardians as a whole which the DH specialization currently lacks. Also, since various other DH skills (Deflecting shot, Purification, Light’s Judgement) apply blind/vuln, there is more in-class synergy and broader access to the DH’s unique conditions, as well.
• The same synergy issue is the reason for the last part of the trap GM, as well (although giving Retaliation on activation, as well, is almost certainly too much): Traps spawn symbols creates a lot of synergy already, but a dedicated trapper will likely be relying largely on his activated virtues for sustain/defense/etc. Since symbols are light fields (blast/leap gives retaliation), and one of them actually pulses retaliation, it seemed like another really cool place to tie in some synergy with other Guardian abilities and at the same time reward active and skillful play (since that last part seems to be a huge component of their intention with the expansion in general).
• You’re almost certainly right, though, about some of the traits being too heavy, especially the Trap and Longbow ones. I especially like your idea that, if Heavy Light remains, the KB range should be 600, to maintain the accompanying 10% damage increase. Although, really, I think I’m going to modify that in the OP to read, “Deflecting Shot now causes KB,” based on some of the above discussion with others, esp. Noctis.
• Part of the reason, too, that I’m asking for so much (and you’re right, some of it is almost certainly too much), is that right now there is far too little. And since the likelihood of everything I’ve suggested being implemented is probably very small, indeed, my hope is that nonetheless a developer (like Karl, for instance) will look at this and think, “Well, probably some of that is going to be OP, but the ideas are really good — maybe we can do something similar, if a little scaled down.”
• I still think that traps spawning symbols would be one of the coolest GM traits (even if that was all it did), and one of the best ways to make traps more interesting and give them a really useful place in a large variety of builds, since it automatically includes so much of everything: Synergy, damage, support, etc. On the other hand, there’s a good chance you may be right about it just encouraging even more people to Hammer camp and be entirely broken. But then again, that playstyle is impossible in PvP already, and from the HoT content we’ve seen so far, it looks like it will be there, too, since everything is so much more active.

Either way, I really appreciate you taking the time for some thoughtful feedback. That sort of thing is healthy, I think, and useful to ANet, since it gives them a better idea of what we think would be fun/useful. If you’ve made it this far, did you have any thoughts regarding Noctis’ and my changes (a few posts up) regarding Deflecting Shot (in short, that it should progressively slow down — somewhat drastically — past a few hundred range, and expand horizontally as it slows)?

@RebornbyFire and Misguided: it doesnt matter if it is a trap or a ward skill type, the main idea is to make LB5 work in a similar way/manner to the traps, i will suggest that the lb5 won’t trigger regardless if someone walks over it or not but instead you can detonate the trap when you want (you can also add a small delay before it exploded so the enemy has a chance to avoid it, to make things a little more interesting)

Yeah, a flip over skill could accomplish the same thing.

I have edited the original two posts to include some of the ideas/conclusions from our ongoing discussions, particularly regarding the changes to Deflecting Shot, the LB GM trait, and Hunter’s Ward. Thanks very much, everyone who has engaged with this; keep it coming.

Love the ideas & changes so far Reborn.

My only real critique at this point would be that the adept & master for traps could be adjusted a bit.

The adept could stand to make all trap hits, bow hits & sword hits bleed for (say 4 seconds). This would coordinate well with the bow and the sword.

The master seems just a bit overloaded. I and most others would be happy if it just removed (or converted) a set number of conditions (say 2) when a trap is triggered & reduced the cool down of traps by a flat 20-25%.

At any rate appreciate the work & by the six I hope Arena.net looks at it for ideas.

in my opinon the biggest problome with the dh is that is dose not have any connection to a gurdian at all while outher classes seems that thier spec is actully thier class making aprograse while our not. skills seems boaring and not usfull for bew and the holde class idea is bad actully made me give up my gurdian.
i mean while ill invest in the dragon hunter whild i have an ranger alredy?

Change the name to Avenger. /thread.

@Ragnar the Rock: Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement. If we want certain changes, we’ll need multiple voices. I like your idea for the expanded functionality of Piercing Light, but with the new functionality announced in the Upcoming Changes thread, it seems unlikely. As I’ve suggested on that same thread, I like the new change to Piercing Light, and now would love only to see the new Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression replace the current Minor Master and GM traits (with the damage bonus from Pure of Sight being added to the LB GM, and the other either scrapped or added to the new Hunter’s Fortification) — even if the vulnerability on cripple has to be removed and/or the damage bonus has to be lowered or moved to do it. The main thing is to have the minor trait line fit the cripple/hunter theme, rather than have totally random stuff and a super boring and frequently useless damage buff. Then all that’s needed is a Master Tier Major trait (assuming Piercing Light remains Adept) which causes bleeding whenever you strike a crippled foe, and for BGH to allow Justice to retain its passive effect after being activated and we’re set to rock: General access to cripple for all Dragonhunters, broad access to bleeding if we want it, and all manner of cool things that fit the theme without being entirely forced into any of them. There are still some other changes I’d love to see, especially on traps (and I still think it would be excellent to have a trait that granted swiftness and removed movement-impeding conditions when we place a trap), but those couple of changes above are the main ones that to my mind would be extremely easy to make and would answer almost all of the serious problems I and many others have with the class.

Also, @Kidel, I actually have preferred the name “Avenger” to “Dragonhunter” since its announcement. But I already have an “Avenger” title (as well as “Avenger of the Dispossessed,” which may be even better), and that is what actually shows to other players, so if they’ll just fix the traits/skills to do what they should and be awesome and interesting, they can call it the Ice Cream Truck Driver spec for all I care, and I’ll still happily enjoy playing it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/DragonHunter-change-proposal-into-Avenger/first#post5428081

I’ll just reiterate the changes I’d like to see with the recent update to what we’ll see on the next BWE.

Hunter’s fortification: I love the condition-removal on block but the 10% dmg reduction while not having conditions needs to be changed. Everything literally sneezes conditions so half of this trait is nigh-useless. Change it to 10% dmg reduction IF you have a condition on you.

Heavy Light: RNG-based stab/CC is quite the opposite of what people need and when they need it. You don’t need to push someone back randomly but when they’re pulling off something huge. Same can be said about the stability gained. I love the initiative but I think this is the only trait that needs a complete rework.

I was sort of pumped when I heard a guardian longbow spec. I was thinking a support bow with high damage mitigation, maybe some mobility…but basically a big heavily armored longbow spec that did guardian stuff only changed its gameplay up into something longer range and again, more mobility.

I’m not sure I’m thrilled with the “hey you guys wanted a trapper bow class when you chose that heavily armored support class right?”

However….If the goal here is to simply “completely change how you play a class” well then this is it.

I will say that I almost always see in other games the pre launched predictions are completely wrong after a the bulk playerbase gets their hands on it and interesting meta’s appear. We don’t have that yet.

So right now, while I’m not 100% thrilled at the aspect of being a trapper bow user…im not against it. I think that people will figure out the specialization far better once its in game and thoroughly tested.

Keep in mind, the developers who made this have had far more time to play and test the class than any of us have had, and get the inner workings of the skills ect. So if there isn’t something obvious that jives well with the specialization, perhaps were all missing something.

it is possibly that they just sort of said…“well kitten it” and rushed the development for DH because they were out of ideals and time…

But if I’m not mistaken, these specializations are 100% optional, so guardian should function as it always has if people dislike the concept of a trapper/bow “petless hunter”

Dragonhunter needs stealth not stupid traps. Guardian already haves everything except for stealth.

I haven’t tried DH but I was wondering: a part of DH’s concept seems to be ranged support. Therefore “Wings of Resolve” allow to jump from the backline towards your frontline allies in need. Shouldn’t it offer a jump back for a few seconds after you activated the skill (like thief Shadowstep) to reposition yourself at range after you successfully healed your allies?

Also I do agree that the traps seem very weak for their cooldowns!