Guild Wars 2

No, wards and Sanctuary are not reliable knockbacks. They are completely contingent upon the enemy running into them. You don’t need cripple when they’re trapped inside the ring. You need cripple when they teleport out of it and are opening the gap between you. This is the reason why I didn’t even consider them in the first place, because they are not controlled by you, but rather by the enemy deciding to run into it without first popping stability. And it’s just plain dumb to assert that using a knockback with a melee weapon is an effective way to keep the enemy in range of your attacks, because it has literally the opposite effect.

I refuse to believe that Defender’s Dogma will be of any use. Full condi guardian will still not be a thing even after this update, so a hybrid build is really the closest you’ll be able to get. And a hybrid build would most certainly benefit more from the 15% damage + 10 seconds of guaranteed burning instead of trying to base your build around a trait that, yet again, relies on specific enemy actions to be effective.

I’d like to add to this that traps are still a horrible idea, and as long as they’ll exist in their current iteration they will not be effective to build around. A trap only works if the enemy doesn’t see you plant it ahead of time, doesn’t know where it is, isn’t able to predict that it’d be on a standard chokepoint, and just happens to run into it, and decides to NOT dodge or teleport out of it. Yet again, we are relying on a situation where the enemy has to fulfill a specific set of circumstances for your build to work. See a pattern here at all? I don’t want to have to rely on my enemy to essentially kill himself for me, because at least 9 times out of 10 that’s not going to happen. I want to be able to use the tools at my disposal to kill him myself.

Well you seem unshakeable. I still hope and believe you are and will be wrong. Because you seem miserable as well with the whole concept of DH.

I see the argument for push backs mostly utilized to keeping your opponent away from you(in most situations). I will say, when utilizing a port+ring you can get at least one kb on someone but as a reliable source, probably not.

Also, the Scepter AA(unless fixed anytime soon) is completely unreliable unless you’re within melee range thus negating any benefit from Pure of Sight.

Edit: Just to clarify a post on the 1st page regarding Defender’s Dogma and Shield of Courage. From the pvp video vs. the Warrior, it didn’t seem like you actually blocked but rather destroyed what was in front of you so you won’t gain any benefit.

Asmodal.6489:

Well you seem unshakeable. I still hope and believe you are and will be wrong. Because you seem miserable as well with the whole concept of DH.

Black Box literally hates everything about the DH spec except maybe the virtues. It’s kinda weird just seeing somebody say “no, it’s bad” over and over for nearly everything.

As for me, I’m going to enjoy the DH spec in dungeons at least. As long as stacking meta is a thing, then so too will abilities that benefit from point-blank placement also be a thing. Let the nay-sayers have their peace, but a condi Guardian seems really fun and fresh.

I think you guys have it wrong. It’s more of a concern Black Box has rather than hatred. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out flaws and/or concerns. A good reiteration would be as to why Guardians received traps in the first place when we have an abundance of Area-of-denial to start with. Another good argument is why have a ranged trait only work with 1 weapon (since the others tracking is so horrible). These are concerns and justified as well.

Arken.3725:

I think you guys have it wrong. It’s more of a concern Black Box has rather than hatred. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out flaws and/or concerns. A good reiteration would be as to why Guardians received traps in the first place when we have an abundance of Area-of-denial to start with. Another good argument is why have a ranged trait only work with 1 weapon (since the others tracking is so horrible). These are concerns and justified as well.

The difference between pointing out concerns and doing what Black Box is doing, is that they are refusing to see any viability with the spec at all. There are some aspects that are clunky, but there are others that are good. You can make viable builds with this spec.

MiniEquine.6014:

Arken.3725:

I think you guys have it wrong. It’s more of a concern Black Box has rather than hatred. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out flaws and/or concerns. A good reiteration would be as to why Guardians received traps in the first place when we have an abundance of Area-of-denial to start with. Another good argument is why have a ranged trait only work with 1 weapon (since the others tracking is so horrible). These are concerns and justified as well.

The difference between pointing out concerns and doing what Black Box is doing, is that they are refusing to see any viability with the spec at all. There are some aspects that are clunky, but there are others that are good. You can make viable builds with this spec.

I’m with you in that regard, I’ve already started theory crafting my next spec and I think it’ll be amazing. I am with the crowd that’s curious as to why we got traps when we have symbols/consecrations. It is what it is. In regard to melee-support, there are a lot of choices to be had to support yourself. I just wish we had confirmation if Shield of Courage actually BLOCKS or just destroys hits in front of you.

Edit: Also, if what I saw was correct, Shield of Courage did destroy/block directly in front of you, even melee attacks from the Warrior’s Hammer so that would assist GREATLY with melee-support.

Does anyone know if summoning the Shield of Courage also forces people back with it? Like a push? Its a little bit in front of you so I was wondering if you could use it like a shovel to just shove people into traps. (I don’t think so, I think its probably like the Revenant’s reflection smoke wall that just moves through people, but I can dream.)

That being said its pretty darn cool as is, and I’m looking forward to my guardian stacking bleed and burn, along with the other virtues. The max Justice on block does allow a nice opener with aegis so while not amazing its a decent minor trait. Pure of sight is the only minor trait I’m actively annoyed by and that’s just because I didn’t really plan to pick up bow. I’ll live with it without real issue though. I don’t get a lot of use out of Virtuous Retribution in PvE all the time either, and only intermittent use out of the blind on Justice(when I’m low on foes to quick kill so that I can’t recharge it I’ll hold off from using it. Especially in story instances. The foes there don’t seem to recharge it at all, which has been a problem forever. Not sure why they don’t.)

Black Box.9312:

No, wards and Sanctuary are not reliable knockbacks. They are completely contingent upon the enemy running into them. You don’t need cripple when they’re trapped inside the ring. You need cripple when they teleport out of it and are opening the gap between you. This is the reason why I didn’t even consider them in the first place, because they are not controlled by you, but rather by the enemy deciding to run into it without first popping stability. And it’s just plain dumb to assert that using a knockback with a melee weapon is an effective way to keep the enemy in range of your attacks, because it has literally the opposite effect.

Say what?
Pretty sure the WTS Champion Tage, as well as most hamguards, will disagree with you on that one.

Ring of Warding is pretty much the only reason Hamguards work. The warding has a massive AOE control effect towards the entire team. It Does knockback and it Does act as a support for melee classes due to its heavy control usage.

The same applies for LB #1 Cripple autos and the knockback trait effect. This isn’t intended to be more effective than hammer #5. Only supplementive.

Towards OP & Title of thread
On that note, DH is Not lacking support for melee classes.

Future Rebuttal Question: Then the bow is needed to support melee builds

We also have
-F2 4k damage leap trait.
-Traps causes bleeds
-Big Game Hunter’s 15% damage modifier.
The damage modifier alone should cover melee classes. Do you want every aspect of the DH tree to cover Melee builds? We should be lucky that DH touches some aspect of bunker/support/dps/condi in one tree.

The Specialization tree is not suppose to replace any of the other trees at all!

Arken.3725:

I am with the crowd that’s curious as to why we got traps when we have symbols/consecrations. It is what it is.

Each specialization take something from another profession.

• Mesmers learned Wells from Necros.
• Necros learned Shouts from Warriors.
• Druids will learn symbols/concecrations from Guardians. Speculation.

It’s quite ingenius, really. Cuddos to the Devs. Evolution in the Lore is happening “right before our eyes”! :p

Since we’re learning from Rangers, we were going to either learn Survival or Trap utilities. Because both classes already share Spirits, Signets, and Shouts.

I don’t know about you but Traps are 10x more interesting than Survival utilities lol.

Saiyan.1704:

Arken.3725:

I am with the crowd that’s curious as to why we got traps when we have symbols/consecrations. It is what it is.

Each specialization take something from another profession.

• Mesmers learned Wells from Necros.
• Necros learned Shouts from Warriors.
• Druids will learn symbols/concecrations from Guardians. Speculation.

It’s quite ingenius, really. Cuddos to the Devs. Evolution in the Lore is happening “right before our eyes”! :p

Since we’re learning from Rangers, we were going to either learn Survival or Trap utilities. Because both classes already share Spirits, Signets, and Shouts.

I don’t know about you but Traps are 10x more interesting than Survival utilities lol.

Honestly, I am kinda suprised they gave wells to mesmers, considering that each class has one thing that every other class doesnt for utilities (guard consecrations, necro wells, warrior stances, mesmer mantras.) So far, only wells have been spread out, while shouts/traps multiple classes have. Overall though I wish the unique utilities would have been given to other classes instead. of just repeating traps/shouts so far…

So if we look at all the traits to see how well it would work with melee, it’d look like this.

Minors: All except Pure of Sight would work well within melee

Majors: All except Heavy Light and Hunter’s Determination work well within melee.

The one issue I have is with Pure of Sight and that’s because as a minor, you have no choice in the matter.

Arken.3725:

So if we look at all the traits to see how well it would work with melee, it’d look like this.

Minors: All except Pure of Sight would work well within melee

Majors: All except Heavy Light and Hunter’s Determination work well within melee.

The one issue I have is with Pure of Sight and that’s because as a minor, you have no choice in the matter.

Pure of sight is one of those 50/50 ones, I think it will be slightly helpful in situations when people try to run or kite you for things like scepter, torch, Hammer # 3, and even our traps could benefit from this as well depending on how far ahead they are deployed. Also keep in mind that sigils and whatnot will benefit from this too. While it is most obviously meant for the bow and maybe a few select other weapons, I think looking at is extra damage vs running/kiting enemies really needs to be considered as well. Though i will say I REALLLLLLLLLY would have liked some torment somewhere to help against running/kiting issues -.-

A lot of those situations(barring Scepter IF they fix the AA) are incredibly niche I think. Something more reliable would be nice.

Arken.3725:

A lot of those situations(barring Scepter IF they fix the AA) are incredibly niche I think. Something more reliable would be nice.

Oh I do totally agree, it is very niche in regards to when it can be useful, and the trait IS really meant to supliment the bow (and to possibly equal extent, the staff) But there are going to be situations were we are going to get bonuses from it, so it cant really be 100% discredited as a “ranged only” trait, even if range DOES get the most out of it. As i said, and have been trying for forever, a torment trait in radiance would have been the true fix we need.

Sigh… People assuming they know what I think and mean, when really they don’t at all.

Bash.7291:

Arken.3725:

A lot of those situations(barring Scepter IF they fix the AA) are incredibly niche I think. Something more reliable would be nice.

Oh I do totally agree, it is very niche in regards to when it can be useful, and the trait IS really meant to supliment the bow (and to possibly equal extent, the staff) But there are going to be situations were we are going to get bonuses from it, so it cant really be 100% discredited as a “ranged only” trait, even if range DOES get the most out of it. As i said, and have been trying for forever, a torment trait in radiance would have been the true fix we need.

Can I ask why Torment. I think the biggest “fix” we needed was mobility(movement trait would be nice). If anything, that would greatly assist with melee-support. Making it say a Master in whatever tree so you had to choose would be fine as well.

Black Box.9312:

Sigh… People assuming they know what I think and mean, when really they don’t at all.

I get what you’re saying dude. You have concerns and I get that completely. However, I think until we can test these changes for ourselves, we really can’t pass judgement based on some video of someone who doesn’t even main Guardian to demonstrate(no offense Grouch).

Black Box.9312:

Sigh… People assuming they know what I think and mean, when really they don’t at all.

Explain better then. Understanding is a two part road. You can’t control how someone is going to comprehend your statements, but you can control how you articulate your thoughts.

Black Box.9312:

Sigh… People assuming they know what I think and mean, when really they don’t at all. :(

So misunderstood. Don’t let heavy criticism discourage your posts! Keep at em! Show em’ how it is!
RAWR! :P

Bash.7291:

As i said, and have been trying for forever, a torment trait in radiance would have been the true fix we need.

I kinda disagree on Torment as it doesn’t exactly match a Guardian’s style. Cripple is more suiting for us and i’m glad they went that route. It doesn’t just help our poor mobility but also gives us another item that we lacked, condi coverages. Same goes for Bleeds in the DH line but I do kinda wish that trait replaced Radiant Retaliation in Radiance. My goodness… why did they keep RR!? It needs to be more useful.

I absolutely wish they decide to make Permeating Wrath effect On Target. That would make for a nice glassy DH Bow/Scepter build. Bow auto will cause a 520 aoe burn proc. With air/fire sigs a single 1 hit can potentially cause 2-3 stacks of burns ^.^
Wouldn’t be very good in 1v1 fights but… that’s why sce/f will be on the offhand!

So far with what’s been discussed I believe with regards to Melee Playstyle & the DH Specialization we’ve come down to 1 minor & 2 major traits;

• Pure of Sight - +10% dmg to foes beyond 600 range.
• Hunter’s Determination - True shot (Longbow) grants stability for each foe hit.
• Heavy Light - Longbow arrows (skills 1,2,3) knock back (120) foes within 300 range, cooldown 7 sec.

I think most have no problem with major traits only benefiting range or melee playstyle as that is within our choice. What I do have issues with is there are 2 major traits that only effect the longbow. I was under the impression that weapons & skill categories were being merged into one overall trait as the one stop for all with regards to these skill types. Following this concept I would like to see Hunter’s Determination, Heavy Light & a cooldown reduction effect all merged into a Longbow trait. Merging & creating a Longbow Only Trait opens up another trait slot on the DH spec.

• What do players think of merging Hunter’s Determination & Heavy Light creating a One Stop for All Longbow Trait?
• With a Major trait spot open what would players like to see as a new DH Major Trait?

With regards to Pure of Sight what to others think of adding a lingering effect similar to Lingering Elements (Elementalist – Arcana) were the + dmg effect lingered for a small time when within the threshold range.

• Pure of Sight - +10% dmg to foes beyond 600 range & effect lingers for 3 sec when within 600 ranges.

Dragonhunter? What about Zeal?

Throughout this discussion it has also identified for me that other then the DH specialization the Zeal Core Specialization is actual worse off then DH when looking at the minor traits as we have;

• Symbolic Exposure - symbols apply vulnerability each pulse.
• Symbolic Power - + dmg & chance to burn each pulse.

The main problem with these minor traits is it is possible to have no access to symbols other then a symbol from the Zealot’s Speed trait (Applies Retaliation so why Speed in the name?);

• Weapons with symbols - Greatsword, Hammer, Staff, Mace & Longbow.
• Weapons without symbols - Sword, Scepter, Focus, Torch, Shield.

Another interesting fact is that there is a Scepter Only Trait in Zeal but if you equip scepter you will not have access to a symbol through your weapon skill.

There are two ways we could look at fixing this.

1. Change these 2 minor traits
2. Adding symbols to Main hand & 2 Handers weapons missing symbols.

Two Options Which One?
If were looking at DH should we also be looking at Zeal as well?

Changing Minors
New minor – Wrathful Spirit - Aegis applies retaliation when it ends.
New minor – Fiery Wrath - +10% dmg against burning foes.
(Changing existing majors to minors)

Now we have two major trait spots open. An option is to;

• Merging Symbolic Exposure & Symbolic Power to just “Symbolic Power” but with both effects turning this into a new major trait so we only need to think about 1 new major trait.
• Or we could combine all symbol traits in Zeal into one stop for all symbol trait similar to my idea regarding a longbow only trait but we now still need 2 new major traits.

What are players thought’s on this idea & what new majors would you like?

Adding Symbols
This means no changes to the Zeal Core Specialization line but changes to weapons skills. At the moment if you equip either the Scepter or 1H Sword you are guaranteed to not have access to a symbol for that weapons set & if you use both a Scepter & Sword in a build you’ll have no reliable symbols at all (- symbol from trait). So also looking at future additions I would look at All Main Hand & 2 Handers weapons having Symbols within their skills.

Note: I don’t believe we always need unique symbols for each weapon, as such at some state we could reuse some symbols)

My ideas with regards to the Scepter & 1H Sword;

• Scepter - Like most I feel Smite should be the symbol on scepter. I’m looking at adding “Symbol of Fury” – 2 sec symbol applying fury (1 sec) per pulse or “Symbol of Strength” – 2 sec symbol applying 2 stacks of might (3 sec) per pulse with the pummelling fists still applying Smite’s damage in the existing way.

I lean towards a 2 sec symbol with Writ of Persistence only adding 1 sec due to Smite’s cooldown. With regards to the skill effect I would look at adding the applied Boon’s Graphic centred on the ground to add the symbol feeling to the skill but also keeping the existing pummelling fist effect. This would allows for easy symbol / boon identification, but what I would really love is the Raised Fist graphic centred on the ground as this ties in very nicely with the current effect. Only problem is the Raised Fist is already used in the Retaliation boon graphic.

• Sword - I’m looking at adding “Symbol of Resistance” – 2 sec symbol applying dmg & resistance (1 sec) per pulse or “Symbol of Stability” – 2 sec symbol applying dmg & stability 1 stack (2 sec) per pulse to the end of the teleport on Flashing Blade.

Again I lean towards a 2 sec symbol with Writ of Persistence only adding 1 sec. For the centred ground graphic I would again like to use the corresponding boon graphic.

Would players like to see symbols available for all weapon sets?

Bezagron.7352:

So far with what’s been discussed I believe with regards to Melee Playstyle & the DH Specialization we’ve come down to 1 minor & 2 major traits;

• Pure of Sight - +10% dmg to foes beyond 600 range.
• Hunter’s Determination - True shot (Longbow) grants stability for each foe hit.
• Heavy Light - Longbow arrows (skills 1,2,3) knock back (120) foes within 300 range, cooldown 7 sec.

I think most have no problem with major traits only benefiting range or melee playstyle as that is within our choice. What I do have issues with is there are 2 major traits that only effect the longbow. I was under the impression that weapons & skill categories were being merged into one overall trait as the one stop for all with regards to these skill types. Following this concept I would like to see Hunter’s Determination, Heavy Light & a cooldown reduction effect all merged into a Longbow trait. Merging & creating a Longbow Only Trait opens up another trait slot on the DH spec.

• What do players think of merging Hunter’s Determination & Heavy Light creating a One Stop for All Longbow Trait?
• With a Major trait spot open what would players like to see as a new DH Major Trait?

With regards to Pure of Sight what to others think of adding a lingering effect similar to Lingering Elements (Elementalist – Arcana) were the + dmg effect lingered for a small time when within the threshold range.

• Pure of Sight - +10% dmg to foes beyond 600 range & effect lingers for 3 sec when within 600 ranges.

I do not think the lingering would work well. I would go as fat to say that with your suggestion include Pure of sight in your LB Grandmaster trait proposal and we are good to go.

I do feel this would be more in line with their approach and I think this might happen anyways because it is actually a pretty obvious mistake. I would appreciate a Condition cleanse centred trait at master tier instead. we need that of they want to make traps see any game play.

Asmodal.6489:

I do not think the lingering would work well. I would go as fat to say that with your suggestion include Pure of sight in your LB Grandmaster trait proposal and we are good to go.

I do feel this would be more in line with their approach and I think this might happen anyways because it is actually a pretty obvious mistake.

Kind of developed a like for the lingering effect as the trait now plays very much into a more Aggressive Guardian and I feel it plays quite well with this back & forth gameplay you would get with a DH that’s using a Longbow & Traps.

Asmodal.6489:

I would appreciate a Condition cleanse centred trait at master tier instead. we need that of they want to make traps see any game play.

Not so sure about a cleanse it feels more defensive. If we go with moving Pure of Sight into a All in One Grandmaster Longbow trait how would you feel with a minor that applied Resistance.

I feel resistance is a more aggressive take on protection of conditions giving this feeling of fight through them. In this way I feel we can still achieve this condition protection your looking for but with a more aggressive take. This for me feels more at home with the ideas behind Dragonhunters.

Bash.7291:

Overall though I wish the unique utilities would have been given to other classes instead. of just repeating traps/shouts so far…

Its so they can have runes specific to skill types. See runes of the trapper and rune of the trooper for example. They may introduce a well rune per say that mesmers and necros can make use of in some builds.

Arken.3725:

Bash.7291:

Arken.3725:

A lot of those situations(barring Scepter IF they fix the AA) are incredibly niche I think. Something more reliable would be nice.

Oh I do totally agree, it is very niche in regards to when it can be useful, and the trait IS really meant to supliment the bow (and to possibly equal extent, the staff) But there are going to be situations were we are going to get bonuses from it, so it cant really be 100% discredited as a “ranged only” trait, even if range DOES get the most out of it. As i said, and have been trying for forever, a torment trait in radiance would have been the true fix we need.

Can I ask why Torment. I think the biggest “fix” we needed was mobility(movement trait would be nice). If anything, that would greatly assist with melee-support. Making it say a Master in whatever tree so you had to choose would be fine as well.

A couple reasons actually,

1) I have never been a supporter of guardian getting more speed. I support the idea of the class being less mobile, but having ways to keep people in battle, and have always supported more forms of CC, mostly in the form of chill, or through making the enemy pay for fleeing such as torment.

2) another condition brings on possibility of a true condition guard, and as was mentioned above, would help in regards to being kited for punishing people for moving.

3)Originally I supported it as a “on crit” trait in the radiance line, since currently, the radiance line actually has very little to do with helping condition builds, and would have fit into the current crit/condi them, and would have opened up some of the more conventional condition options.

Sigmoid.7082:

Its so they can have runes specific to skill types. See runes of the trapper and rune of the trooper for example. They may introduce a well rune per say that mesmers and necros can make use of in some builds.

I think Sigmoid has the primary reason for reusing existing skill categories. If the word Trap is the issue with the new skills think of them more like time delayed offensive symbols. They are only traps so they can take advantage of existing & future sigils & runes that effect traps.

Bash.7291:

Arken.3725:

Bash.7291:

Arken.3725:

A lot of those situations(barring Scepter IF they fix the AA) are incredibly niche I think. Something more reliable would be nice.

Oh I do totally agree, it is very niche in regards to when it can be useful, and the trait IS really meant to supliment the bow (and to possibly equal extent, the staff) But there are going to be situations were we are going to get bonuses from it, so it cant really be 100% discredited as a “ranged only” trait, even if range DOES get the most out of it. As i said, and have been trying for forever, a torment trait in radiance would have been the true fix we need.

Can I ask why Torment. I think the biggest “fix” we needed was mobility(movement trait would be nice). If anything, that would greatly assist with melee-support. Making it say a Master in whatever tree so you had to choose would be fine as well.

A couple reasons actually,

1) I have never been a supporter of guardian getting more speed. I support the idea of the class being less mobile, but having ways to keep people in battle, and have always supported more forms of CC, mostly in the form of chill, or through making the enemy pay for fleeing such as torment.

2) another condition brings on possibility of a true condition guard, and as was mentioned above, would help in regards to being kited for punishing people for moving.

3)Originally I supported it as a “on crit” trait in the radiance line, since currently, the radiance line actually has very little to do with helping condition builds, and would have fit into the current crit/condi them, and would have opened up some of the more conventional condition options.

1: I can agree with this but you’d need a lot more access to said Soft-CC to work. With the introduction of Cripple being very niche outside of bow(team fighting), it’s very difficult to pull off. I am actually the opposite, i’d love to have speed but have very little-to-no soft-cc.

2: Not sure how I feel about this, sorta pigeon-holes you into condition builds and leaves those running power a bit behind.

Bezagron.7352:

Asmodal.6489:

I do not think the lingering would work well. I would go as fat to say that with your suggestion include Pure of sight in your LB Grandmaster trait proposal and we are good to go.

I do feel this would be more in line with their approach and I think this might happen anyways because it is actually a pretty obvious mistake.

Kind of developed a like for the lingering effect as the trait now plays very much into a more Aggressive Guardian and I feel it plays quite well with this back & forth gameplay you would get with a DH that’s using a Longbow & Traps.

Asmodal.6489:

I would appreciate a Condition cleanse centred trait at master tier instead. we need that of they want to make traps see any game play.

Not so sure about a cleanse it feels more defensive. If we go with moving Pure of Sight into a All in One Grandmaster Longbow trait how would you feel with a minor that applied Resistance.

I feel resistance is a more aggressive take on protection of conditions giving this feeling of fight through them. In this way I feel we can still achieve this condition protection your looking for but with a more aggressive take. This for me feels more at home with the ideas behind Dragonhunters.

I would happily live with that.

I think there are some easy ways to make DH a bit more versatile…

Minors

Adept
Virtious Action

Master
Zealots Agression

Grandmaster
Hunters Fortification

• Gain x% damage reduction per nearby foe (cap: 5)
• Radius: 600

Just scrap Defenders Dogma. It is a defensive and crappy version of Supreme Justice which lacks synergy with the traitline and the specialization. It also contradicts with the vision of more active Virtues. Pure of Sight is too specific to a ranged playstyle and shouldn’t be a Minor. The new Hunter’s Fortification works for both melee and ranged builds.

Majors

Adept

1. Piercing Light

2. Pure of Sight

3. Soaring Devastation

• Damage on F2
• Immobilize on impact (only 1-2s instead of 3s)
• 2s Cripple when landing a leap finisher (H#2, GS#3)

Ranged Guardians can pick Pure of Sight. The addition of Cripple through leap finishers opens some synergies with more melee focussed builds. Piercing Light stays as is.

Master

1. Hunter’s Determination

2. Bulwark

3. Dulled Senses

Remains as is.

Grandmaster

1. Heavy Light

• Knockback with Range Threshold.
• Works with Longbow, Staff and Scepter.

We already got Hunter’s Determination as Longbow trait. No need for a second one.

2. Big Game Hunter

3. Something new. Some ideas…

• Recharge Virtues for x% or s when hitting a Crippled foe (ICD)
• Recharge 50% Endurance of nearby allies (cap: 5) when activating a Virtue (ICD).

i got a question….
by the topic “DH trait line – lacking support for melee” isnt this the same to say zeal does not help LB weapon or valor goes the same way???

Guard cliche > :] specialization is the lonbow and the traps for controling points with almost 60sec interval why should it had bonus to melee and range weapons, if guards got it in other traits?

Aeolus.3615:

i got a question….
by the topic “DH trait line – lacking support for melee” isnt this the same to say zeal does not help LB weapon or valor goes the same way???

Guard cliche > :] specialization is the lonbow and the traps for controling points with almost 60sec interval why should it had bonus to melee and range weapons, if guards got it in other traits?

Exactly. I’m not understanding this thread either.

Aeolus.3615:

i got a question….
by the topic “DH trait line – lacking support for melee” isnt this the same to say zeal does not help LB weapon or valor goes the same way???

Guard cliche > :] specialization is the lonbow and the traps for controling points with almost 60sec interval why should it had bonus to melee and range weapons, if guards got it in other traits?

To be honest, Zeal is probably the worst pick for such a comparison since Zeal works perfectly fine with both – Longbow and Traps.

You got a point that not every traitline has to be perfect with any weapon – or utility set. However, it also doesn’t mean that a traitline should be as limited as DH currently is when it comes to cross-traitline synergies. Even the new Marksmanship traitline is less restricted to ranged combat.

Xaylin.1860:

Aeolus.3615:

(…)

To be honest, Zeal is probably the worst pick for such a comparison since Zeal works perfectly fine with both – Longbow and Traps.
(…)

traps plus simbols and simbol 20% damage?
it might sound to good in teory for point control,but i have my doubts about efectivness.

If were having this problem with Dragonhunter should we also look at Zeal which has a similar issue?

(Note: 2 symbol only minors but if 1H Sword or Scepter is equipped you’ll have no access to symbols. Funny Scepter trait is in Zeal)

This is what i think will be a great build with the LB. Will go LB/GS with radiance and zeal. Add sigils that cripple on crit, with 10% more damage on crippled enemies and knock back + with radiance traited to do 33% burning and 25% more crit chance on burning. Crippling and knock back every 7 sec will make it easier for my true shot to land while be able to do serious damage with Symbol of Energy due to fire and symbol bonus’s coming from zeal and radiance – Okay they won’t stand in the circle but meh, i guess i’ll be hoping to win the range battle, if its against a ranger or a mes and the auto-attack arrows bounce and hit their companions, but even without that it should go well. If they try run away i’ll probably have JI slotted, so even if they are going faster than me after i teleport they’ll have to somehow get out of the 1200 range while also getting hit by cripple hits and crit hits (since JI’s fire dmg will cause me to start critting them. I also doubt they’ll be able to out-kitten me when I can block their attacks with shield of courage and deflecting shot.

Why GS? because while the Bow will counter any kittin attempts on me, the only other option is for the opponent to get up in my face with raw melee dmg dealing attacks. Yet i’ll also have crip sigil on GS , + with all the fire damage i’ll be doing i’ll be getting a 10% dmg on burning enemies, 10% dmg from cripple and 25% crit chance from burning enemies as well. On top of that, either with blinding blades or with Wrath of justice on radiance trait i’ll activate which willl hold them down after I put down symbol of wrath followed up by whirling wrath (in a symbol i do 20% more damage to due to symbol of the avenger) it should really damage melee opponents. If they start running after that? I’ll switch to my bow and chase, and once again even with if they have a superior speed they’l have to somehow make it out of 1200 range of me in time.

Oh yeah, by the way he’s what i see would be an incredible combo with one of the traps. Put down Test of Faith that damages foes that cross, but stay just behind it so you knock them back onto it from your heavy light knock back THEN switch to GS, leap , use blinding blade, roll forward over it and pull them back over it once more!

What i think will be amazing with these combo’s is that with the strong symbol damage from GS + whirling wrath/ Wrath of justice/ cripple from bow/ you’ll be able to check heavy melee attackers while with Bow you’ll be able to check yourself from being kitten’d, yet they also offer such good AOE dmg you’ll be able to then just switch into zerg, PvE or frac fights without having to swap everything. Here’s the difference.

the DH/ zeal/radiance lines don’t compliment EACH OTHER so much as much as they CHECK COUNTERS TO YOU. For example, a 1 sword/gs will complement each other as melee attacks, but it wont matter at the end of the day if you get kittn’d to death from a distance. a staff/skepter might be good support or some type of range combo, but if you get picked off or by yourself it wont matter. It might not be said, well why not focus/Gs? well i just dont see the focus matching the bow. Your not gonna get the 10% bonus from long range attacks and it lacks the serious damage dealing as the true shot for the bow does/ the true shot will change the range game from peppering/harassing the enemy to actually being able to heavily damage them.

I’m just gonna bide my time and wait for the PvE tears to start pouring out when DH guards start getting excluded from small PvE group content. This entire trait line is filled with extraordinarily bad ideas.

1. Pure of Sight – incentive to camp range in instanced PvE regardless of the encounter
2. Heavy Light – auto knock back in PvE
3. Hunter’s Fortification – short radius group buff on a class camping range
4. Focus on condi damage in instanced PvE
5. Zealot’s Aggression – reliance on cripple/knock back for melee weapon synergy

I’m pretty sure, that once the new wears off of this elite spec, there are going to be some bitter tears on these forums regarding anything not open world in PvE. I can’t even imagine much favor in open world for a spec using knock back on a routine basis. People thought that rangers received a lot of hate for PBS…at least they had to actively use that ability to trigger the knock back…Heavy Light is going to trigger that automatically if the DH isn’t far enough away on any given attack.

I’m sure this will all be a completely different story in a different content type, which probably the entire point of this elite spec design. I just think they should have modeled this more like the reaper or chronomancer elite specs where the specializations actually have strong synergy and cross weapon appeal. The other elite specs open up many more build options than DH does because they don’t funnel you into a specific weapon. The reaper can play any weapon type and not be shafted on traits. The reaper has exactly one trait specific to the GS and it is on a major trait..completely avoidable. The chronomancer is pretty much the same, there is nothing that unavoidably makes me want to avoid other trait lines or specific weapons.

ODB.6891:

I’m just gonna bide my time and wait for the PvE tears to start pouring out when DH guards start getting excluded from small PvE group content. This entire trait line is filled with extraordinarily bad ideas.

1. Pure of Sight – incentive to camp range in instanced PvE regardless of the encounter
2. Heavy Light – auto knock back in PvE
3. Hunter’s Fortification – short radius group buff on a class camping range
4. Focus on condi damage in instanced PvE
5. Zealot’s Aggression – reliance on cripple/knock back for melee weapon synergy

I’m pretty sure, that once the new wears off of this elite spec, there are going to be some bitter tears on these forums regarding anything not open world in PvE. I can’t even imagine much favor in open world for a spec using knock back on a routine basis. People thought that rangers received a lot of hate for PBS…at least they had to actively use that ability to trigger the knock back…Heavy Light is going to trigger that automatically if the DH isn’t far enough away on any given attack.

I’m sure this will all be a completely different story in a different content type, which probably the entire point of this elite spec design. I just think they should have modeled this more like the reaper or chronomancer elite specs where the specializations actually have strong synergy and cross weapon appeal. The other elite specs open up many more build options than DH does because they don’t funnel you into a specific weapon. The reaper can play any weapon type and not be shafted on traits. The reaper has exactly one trait specific to the GS and it is on a major trait..completely avoidable. The chronomancer is pretty much the same, there is nothing that unavoidably makes me want to avoid other trait lines or specific weapons.

Exactly. DH looks like a spec that is almost entirely worthless without the bow, and even with it the traits have pretty much nothing that complements the base class. I really don’t see how people can think otherwise.

ODB.6891:

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While I do believe the traitline needs some work this is very one-dimensional…

Besides Guardians not needing too much attention for PvE group content you basically listed all traits which are bad for this content while not mentioning the good ones. If you go DH for PvE group content you quite obviously will want it for damage modificators.

• Adept: Zealots Aggression for 10% more damage (situational but hey…)
• Master: Bulwark for group support
• GM: Big Game Hunter for 15% more damage + Vulnerability

Yes, the Minors are bad. I’m not going to argue about that. But it’s not like the Minors of other traitlines where that great that you wouldn’t get along without them. The Majors aren’t that bad after all.

Black Box.9312:

ODB.6891:

I’m just gonna bide my time and wait for the PvE tears to start pouring out when DH guards start getting excluded from small PvE group content. This entire trait line is filled with extraordinarily bad ideas.

1. Pure of Sight – incentive to camp range in instanced PvE regardless of the encounter
2. Heavy Light – auto knock back in PvE
3. Hunter’s Fortification – short radius group buff on a class camping range
4. Focus on condi damage in instanced PvE
5. Zealot’s Aggression – reliance on cripple/knock back for melee weapon synergy

I’m pretty sure, that once the new wears off of this elite spec, there are going to be some bitter tears on these forums regarding anything not open world in PvE. I can’t even imagine much favor in open world for a spec using knock back on a routine basis. People thought that rangers received a lot of hate for PBS…at least they had to actively use that ability to trigger the knock back…Heavy Light is going to trigger that automatically if the DH isn’t far enough away on any given attack.

I’m sure this will all be a completely different story in a different content type, which probably the entire point of this elite spec design. I just think they should have modeled this more like the reaper or chronomancer elite specs where the specializations actually have strong synergy and cross weapon appeal. The other elite specs open up many more build options than DH does because they don’t funnel you into a specific weapon. The reaper can play any weapon type and not be shafted on traits. The reaper has exactly one trait specific to the GS and it is on a major trait..completely avoidable. The chronomancer is pretty much the same, there is nothing that unavoidably makes me want to avoid other trait lines or specific weapons.

Exactly. DH looks like a spec that is almost entirely worthless without the bow, and even with it the traits have pretty much nothing that complements the base class. I really don’t see how people can think otherwise.

Because not everyone is looking for a Meta dps line.

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

ODB.6891:

I’m just gonna bide my time and wait for the PvE tears to start pouring out when DH guards start getting excluded from small PvE group content. This entire trait line is filled with extraordinarily bad ideas.

1. Pure of Sight – incentive to camp range in instanced PvE regardless of the encounter
2. Heavy Light – auto knock back in PvE
3. Hunter’s Fortification – short radius group buff on a class camping range
4. Focus on condi damage in instanced PvE
5. Zealot’s Aggression – reliance on cripple/knock back for melee weapon synergy

I’m pretty sure, that once the new wears off of this elite spec, there are going to be some bitter tears on these forums regarding anything not open world in PvE. I can’t even imagine much favor in open world for a spec using knock back on a routine basis. People thought that rangers received a lot of hate for PBS…at least they had to actively use that ability to trigger the knock back…Heavy Light is going to trigger that automatically if the DH isn’t far enough away on any given attack.

I’m sure this will all be a completely different story in a different content type, which probably the entire point of this elite spec design. I just think they should have modeled this more like the reaper or chronomancer elite specs where the specializations actually have strong synergy and cross weapon appeal. The other elite specs open up many more build options than DH does because they don’t funnel you into a specific weapon. The reaper can play any weapon type and not be shafted on traits. The reaper has exactly one trait specific to the GS and it is on a major trait..completely avoidable. The chronomancer is pretty much the same, there is nothing that unavoidably makes me want to avoid other trait lines or specific weapons.

Exactly. DH looks like a spec that is almost entirely worthless without the bow, and even with it the traits have pretty much nothing that complements the base class. I really don’t see how people can think otherwise.

Because not everyone is looking for a Meta dps line.

Asmodal.6489:

Because not everyone is looking for a Meta dps line.

Except that’s literally all it’s good for otherwise, is a couple of % damage modifiers for use in optimal PvE runs that are the only situation where you’ll actually have enough uptime on them to be worth taking over a different, more useful traitline.

I don’t see how anyone can look at the DH traitline and not see it as useful at a base level.

Pve you can damage modifiers. At least the 15% Big Game Hunter one that also stacks Vuln. That’s great. 15% is a big number. The only other modifier we get that really touches that is 20% if the enemy is in a symbol which isn’t something you’re going to keep up 100% outside of hammer. Symbols also require you and the enemy staying in place. If you’re in a group that keep Cripple up enough, you get another 10%.

In Pvp and WvW the new Virtue traits are amazing. I can’t stress this enough. When traited you get a leap that does damage, heals, and immobs. How is that not good for melee? Getting to the enemy and keeping the enemy from running away are pretty much the most important things for a melee spec. You also get an AoE shield that destroys incoming attacks. Yet again, how is that not good? Suddenly the enemy zerg can no longer pin snipe because every Guardian can become a mobile shield for the commander. That is extremely useful for a melee frontline to have.

Literally the only thing that’s not great for a melee spec is one minor trait. And almost every spec and class have minor traits that aren’t always useful. If you can’t see the utility of everything else, that’s on you.