Guild Wars 2

I asked Jon the following question regarding the symbol of swiftness changes, and this is what he said (I’d give a link if I knew how. It’s on the SPVP forum):

JonathanSharp.7094:

Sauncho.8076:

John,

Could you please explain the symbol of swiftness change, I am not fully understanding it. Is it a nerf, and if so, why. Guardians need buff in the mobility department, not nerfs.

Also, can we please buff spirit weapons some how. Thanks for your time.

Respectfully,
Sauncho

It’s actually an improvement in a lot of cases. But, having said that, we don’t want the Guardian to be TOO mobile. Guardians are a very strong presence on any battlefield, so we want to make sure we don’t give them too much mobility + defense.

An improvement, I see. Perfect, thanks for the response…

Great change, i see why the game in wvw is in the actual state…

I have no more hope in arenanet balance team, sorry guys, you tried.

Asking the party to stop running and stand still in the symbol for a few seconds is an.. improvement?

We have always been at war with Eastasia, right? Doubleplus-good!

The only improvement is if you already HAVE swiftness. If you are using SoS to run away, its a nerf. If you are using it for travel, still most of the time its a nerf. Its ONLY a 3 second buff for you and others who cross over it when you already have swiftness and in that case it is rarely important. I suppose you could stand in it to stack it a bit but, well, then you are STANDING STILL to travel FASTER? Terrible trade off, I don’t like it.

This is an overall nerf in terms of primary usage of the skill. I main staff/greatsword on my guardian and even though I use the staff’s symbol of swiftness in combat, I use it to deal damage and not for the swiftness as often in that case. Out of combat I use symbol of swiftness every time the cooldown is available just to try and maintain some semblance of mobility that compares to the constant 25% run speed buffs other classes get so easily. Now to be clear, I don’t want a 25% move speed passive. I want my swiftness. It gives me something to do other than autorun and stare at the screen mindlessly.

I already posted on the patch discussion thread, but I’ll post again here to make sure we get attention for this issue: changing symbol of swiftness to 4 sec/tick means that a guardian out of combat on the move receives only half of the previous amount of swiftness. That is a HUGE nerf to our quality of life.

The skill should be changed in such a way as to allow the 8 seconds of swiftness to apply if someone does not already have swiftness. There is no need to worry about guardian having too much mobility caused by stacking swiftness buffs because a guardian on the move will not be standing in that symbol for more than one tick. To get more swiftness than one tick, the guardian must STAND STILL instead of moving, which defeats the purpose of swiftness entirely and makes the ’improved’ symbol even clunkier than the way it is now.

In wvw we always use it on the run, while the party already has swiftness from static+blast. So in that regard it’s a buff. It was quite annoying to use previously.

Sauncho.8076:

I asked Jon the following question regarding the symbol of swiftness changes, and this is what he said (I’d give a link if I knew how. It’s on the SPVP forum):

JonathanSharp.7094:

Sauncho.8076:

John,

Could you please explain the symbol of swiftness change, I am not fully understanding it. Is it a nerf, and if so, why. Guardians need buff in the mobility department, not nerfs.

Also, can we please buff spirit weapons some how. Thanks for your time.

Respectfully,
Sauncho

It’s actually an improvement in a lot of cases. But, having said that, we don’t want the Guardian to be TOO mobile. Guardians are a very strong presence on any battlefield, so we want to make sure we don’t give them too much mobility + defense.

An improvement, I see. Perfect, thanks for the response…

I don’t really think he understands how simply annoying and unfun it is to be so slow in pvp.

Nor do I think he has tested personally to fully realise its a nerf not a buff.

Isslair.4908:

In wvw we always use it on the run, while the party already has swiftness from static+blast. So in that regard it’s a buff. It was quite annoying to use previously.

In zerg yes.

We are the new necros without damage. If someone see you is matter of time to kill you if you are tank/support and you are alone or far of the group.

urieldhynne.2743:

We are the new necros without damage. If someone see you is matter of time to kill you if you are tank/support and you are alone or far of the group.

If you are alone as a melee train guard, you use sword, gs, retreat and judge’s intervention to travel around quickly.
95% of guild groups won’t chase a lone target blinking away from them. 1v1 roamers will – but it’s their job to kill people 1v1 and it has nothing to do with balance.
I only used SoS to sustain swiftness, not to start it (we have retreat and save yourselves for that, if alone). So the change is a good one for guard’s quality of life.

Isslair.4908:

urieldhynne.2743:

We are the new necros without damage. If someone see you is matter of time to kill you if you are tank/support and you are alone or far of the group.

If you are alone as a melee train guard, you use sword, gs, retreat and judge’s intervention to travel around quickly.
95% of guild groups won’t chase a lone target blinking away from them. 1v1 roamers will – but it’s their job to kill people 1v1 and it has nothing to do with balance.
I only used SoS to sustain swiftness, not to start it (we have retreat and save yourselves for that, if alone). So the change is a good one for guard’s quality of life.

We should not be required to have retreat on our bar in WvW at all times. The change is a good one for guard’s quality of life ONLY when running with others / utilities that provide swiftness. It is a TERRIBLE change for a guardian who wishes to have any build variety and run around without group support.

I use runes of speed and roam with hammer/gs so it doesn’t affect me much, but I am still annoyed that our mobility is getting toned down when it should to be toned up.
Warrior mobility is way bigger even if he is not specced in it. At least they are getting kitten slapped in this patch in other departments…

Isslair.4908:

urieldhynne.2743:

We are the new necros without damage. If someone see you is matter of time to kill you if you are tank/support and you are alone or far of the group.

If you are alone as a melee train guard, you use sword, gs, retreat and judge’s intervention to travel around quickly.
95% of guild groups won’t chase a lone target blinking away from them. 1v1 roamers will – but it’s their job to kill people 1v1 and it has nothing to do with balance.
I only used SoS to sustain swiftness, not to start it (we have retreat and save yourselves for that, if alone). So the change is a good one for guard’s quality of life.

Sacrificing two utility slots for swiftness abilities is ridiculous and makes you kitten. One is a stun breaker too.

To be able to outrun any threat is to be the fastest in the game. We just have to admit we cannot escape.

Honestly though we should always be with our zergs and guild groups. There are better choices for small scale roaming.

Until now Guardians had “too much mobility” in the field…? and he claims that he play the game?

Ok, keep making changes using Star Wars “force”.

This is potentially even worse than it looks.

Right now you can supply a whole zerg with swiftness by placing it infront of your team and they can all run through it for 8 secs of the boon.

If they’re planning to remove the on-entry bonus entirely and just rely on 4 secs per tick then most likely the 5 ally AoE cap will also apply as it does with other symbol pulse mechanics, so you’re not going to see any benefit by stacking a zerg inside the symbol anyway.

If they keep the on-entry bonus ( but it’s just 4 seconds ) then the zerg will only get 4 secs of swiftness as they run through it, which is hardly with the effort of pushing the 3 key. If you’re traited for larger symbols then 5 allies might get an extra 4 seconds on top of this leading to the train getting strung out.

With larger symbols it will always hit twice if the team enters it after its casted. So basically for it to have the exact same function as it has now you need to trait it.

Its a buff, no doubt imo, it just requires a different rotation compared to what we do today and a bit more thought when placing it.

Instead of SoS+Retreat its now SoS+ Retreat+ SoS+ SoS

Personally i would like all symbols to work like in a similar fashion

Brutaly.6257:

With larger symbols it will always hit twice if the team enters it after its casted. So basically for it to have the exact same function as it has now you need to trait it.

Its a buff, no doubt imo, it just requires a different rotation compared to what we do today and a bit more thought when placing it.

Instead of SoS+Retreat its now SoS+ Retreat+ SoS+ SoS

Personally i would like all symbols to work like in a similar fashion

Depends on whether the AoE cap applies tbh – If 15 people run through then some will get 4 seconds, some might get 8 seconds and some might get none at all.

If it’s unbound though as I hope it will be (despite no other tick effects working this way) then it should be workable for sure

it’s bad in my opinion.

place symbol everyone run past, 4 seconds each which is pathetic

place symbol, everyone and their grandma park in the symbol to stack swiftness, but with aoe cap, the best case is you get an effective 12secs, worst case you get effective 0seconds.

but perhaps the biggest problem now is that i have to stop to move faster… which is dumb. it can mean life and death especially when running from zergs.

Tarsius.3170:

Brutaly.6257:

With larger symbols it will always hit twice if the team enters it after its casted. So basically for it to have the exact same function as it has now you need to trait it.

Its a buff, no doubt imo, it just requires a different rotation compared to what we do today and a bit more thought when placing it.

Instead of SoS+Retreat its now SoS+ Retreat+ SoS+ SoS

Personally i would like all symbols to work like in a similar fashion

Depends on whether the AoE cap applies tbh – If 15 people run through then some will get 4 seconds, some might get 8 seconds and some might get none at all.

If it’s unbound though as I hope it will be (despite no other tick effects working this way) then it should be workable for sure

That is true. But the same goes when to many enter todays SoP at the same time. It misses. due to aoe cap.

And this change is mainly a nerf to zerging and in which case there will be a surplus of swiftness to begin with.

The developers are so out of touch with their own game and are utterly clueless about what it’s like to actually play a Guardian in anything other than full bunker gear sitting on a node in their boring stand in circles competitive game-mode.

How is standing still in the symbol for 5 seconds to slowly stack up 4s Swiftness better than instantly gaining 8s of Swiftness? How can you possibly even think that’s a buff?

When the devs propose a change like this and call it a buff…

The sorry state of balance in the game and the reasons why Warriors have been buffed to the insane level the devs think is ‘balanced’ becomes understandable.

This is the last patch to see if there is any real future in this game.
If this one goes ahead like it is and allows the joke of ranged condition easy-mode spam, and Warrior Healing Signet sustain. Then sod it, this game has been out for a year and a half and it has become worse and worse and less fun to play with each balance patch.
And it will clearly continue getting worse if they can’t admit their mistakes and sort out the power creep.

Isslair.4908:

urieldhynne.2743:

We are the new necros without damage. If someone see you is matter of time to kill you if you are tank/support and you are alone or far of the group.

If you are alone as a melee train guard, you use sword, gs, retreat and judge’s intervention to travel around quickly.
95% of guild groups won’t chase a lone target blinking away from them. 1v1 roamers will – but it’s their job to kill people 1v1 and it has nothing to do with balance.
I only used SoS to sustain swiftness, not to start it (we have retreat and save yourselves for that, if alone). So the change is a good one for guard’s quality of life.

this build sounds worse than the almighty full signet build. You do understand these two utilities have pretty long CDs. Unlike the 25% passive speed signets of other classes, you cannot simply just slot them out before combat in a pvp/wvw environment. That means you’re sacrificing two utility slots for travel (still slow), instead of using them during combat….

I can’t believe this is being called a “buff”. Convince me and everyone who think this is a nerf, whether the new supposedly “buff”, take a small sip from your coke… waiting for the pulse to charge up, will get you from POINT A TO POINT B in a shorter amount of TIME then the current symbol of swiftness will get you from EXACTLY THE SAME POINT A TO POINT B. This is not a buff for me even if i can stack swiftness up to perma, but takes longer time to get to another place….

the “buff” i wanna see on this skill is that it’ll actually stack swiftness when you already have the swiftness boon instead of adding just 1 second, like the warrior’s warhorn…

or of course, nerf guardian’s mobility, if everyone thinks guardian’s mobility is way too OP to handle. -_-

ThunderPanda.1872:

this build sounds worse than the almighty full signet build. You do understand these two utilities have pretty long CDs. Unlike the 25% passive speed signets of other classes, you cannot simply just slot them out before combat in a pvp/wvw environment. That means you’re sacrificing two utility slots for travel (still slow), instead of using them during combat….

Do you understand that you get that only for traveling from point A to point B? And that is only if you fear being ganked by someone. As soon as you get to your group you switch to normal utilites\weapons. And yes, you can change them quite easily. It’s less than 1 minute cd kitten . In wvw thats more than enough.
Yes omg-omg to run around you have to switch utilites and weapons. It was always like that. And getting 4 seconds of swiftness on the run is better than 1.

I can’t believe this is being called a “buff”. Convince me and everyone who think this is a nerf, whether the new supposedly “buff” will get you from POINT A TO POINT B in a shorter amount of TIME then the current symbol of swiftness will get you from EXACTLY THE SAME POINT A TO POINT B.

Currently using SoS on the run after retreat+sy is almost pointles. It can be even bad by getting you into combat. With the change running through SoS while having swiftness will help maintain it for longer. I can’t believe people don’t see it.

Isslair.4908:

ThunderPanda.1872:

this build sounds worse than the almighty full signet build. You do understand these two utilities have pretty long CDs. Unlike the 25% passive speed signets of other classes, you cannot simply just slot them out before combat in a pvp/wvw environment. That means you’re sacrificing two utility slots for travel (still slow), instead of using them during combat….

Do you understand that you get that only for traveling from point A to point B? And that is only if you fear being ganked by someone. As soon as you get to your group you switch to normal utilites\weapons. And yes, you can change them quite easily. It’s less than 1 minute cd kitten . In wvw thats more than enough.
Yes omg-omg to run around you have to switch utilites and weapons. It was always like that. And getting 4 seconds of swiftness on the run is better than 1.

I can’t believe this is being called a “buff”. Convince me and everyone who think this is a nerf, whether the new supposedly “buff” will get you from POINT A TO POINT B in a shorter amount of TIME then the current symbol of swiftness will get you from EXACTLY THE SAME POINT A TO POINT B.

Currently using SoS on the run after retreat+sy is almost pointles. It can be even bad by getting you into combat. With the change running through SoS while having swiftness will help maintain it for longer. I can’t believe people don’t see it.

Hey, wanna read back to your original post? “If you are alone as a melee train guard,” <— yes, this one.
and this: “Do you understand that you get that only for traveling from point A to point B? And that is only if you fear being ganked by someone.”

I wanna see if you can get 1 minute when there’s a person running towards your face, for you to be able to change your utilities to retaliate…

wait, so we’re not meant to be given too much mobility AND defense? i.e. we’re not supposed to have too much mobility.. and defense.. huh. the more you know.

the symbol never stacked in duration, instead of fixing it, they went with the old ‘working as intended’ as it only adds 1 second of swiftness if you already have swiftness.

now its down to 4s, with a defined no stacking clause.

That was working as intended… it was a kludge fix to a loophole they didn’t think through when they made ground-based buffs that stack duration, IMO.

I don’t think they intended you to stand there and get 40 secs of speed, just like I don’t think they intend you to be able to run back and forth through a Mesmer speed buff to gain extra seconds….

(It would be nice if they admitted it, though? ) Then we can just move on to how to fix it….

This is a bad move. It should be 8 seconds initially and then another 8 seconds every time it is reapplied. Why should guardian swiftness add 1 second well warrior warhorn 4 stacks?

Swiftnesss should stack.

I think Symbol of Swiftness should (at the very least) apply 6-8 seconds if you are not currently under the effects of swiftness and otherwise is should apply 4-6 seconds This would keep Symbol of Swiftness useful in any situation (whether you’re trying to maintain swiftness or gain it. Right now Symbol of Swiftness is absolutely useless if you even have just 1 second of Swiftness; however, it’s fine if you have no Swiftness. The change suggested by Anet will make it more useful for maintaining Swiftness, but less useful for initially gaining it. In some aspects it is an improvement; however, if I have no swiftness on me already and need to run like a motherkitten, only gaining 4 seconds on a 12-15s cooldown isn’t going to help me much.

If you are going to have a class that has low mobility you need to give them a way to keep enemies from getting away. We have next to nothing in terms of soft CCs. Warriors don’t have to worry about this since they have cripple on nearly every weapon and high mobility, but Guards have excessively low mobility and no soft CC. In every MMO that has had a tanky class like the Guard, they give them quite a few mechanics that assisted them in keeping enemies from getting away. I don’t know why this isn’t the case in GW2.

Over the course of 15 seconds (the cd for the skill untraited):
Swiftness is 1.33 units of movement, non swift is 1.00 units.
currently:
8s*1.33 units = 10.64 units after 8 seconds
then 7 s of 1.00 = 7.00 ,
7+10.64 – 17.64 units after 15 s

proposed:
4s*0 units (not moving at all)=0 (recharge is at 11 seconds at this point)
and 11s*1.33 units=14.63,
14.63+0=14.63 units movement after 15 seconds.
however you will have 2 seconds of swiftness left over for the next stacking session which means you can get perma swiftness after a while without having to stop.

I think over the long course of running from point a to b the newer version will eventually overtake the older version, but I prefer the older version for simplicity sake.

Ezrael.6859:

How is standing still in the symbol for 5 seconds to slowly stack up 4s Swiftness better than instantly gaining 8s of Swiftness? How can you possibly even think that’s a buff?

If you stand there you will be hit by every tick and every tick is 4s of swiftness, at least that is how Jon explained it. So if it ticks 4 times it takes 3s (first tick is instant) and you gain 16 s of swifness -3 for standing still, a total of 13 sec. This means if you place the symbol exactly right you will be hit by two ticks while running thru it, giving 8 s of swiftness.

And ofc it now sacks with 4 sec when you have swiftness running. Overall it will be easier to have 100% uptime on swiftness alone. i think 30% boon duration is enough compared to todays 60%. So basically it makes it possible to remove SyS from the cast bar and add in something else instead-

For me and my builds/gameplay its a buff.

dandamanno.4136:

I think over the long course of running from point a to b the newer version will eventually overtake the older version, but I prefer the older version for simplicity sake.

This exactly, its an improvement for most situations but its more demanding to use.

now its down to 4s, with a defined no stacking clause.

As i read Jon it stacks now.

You lose 3 seconds of travel time by standing still to stack it, so the added duration washes out. It is less useful as a clutch escape or chase tool, as proper positioning will be more difficult. As a travel tool, all you have to do now is use it after your swiftness runs out to get the same duration that the new proper positioning gives.

You travel a range of 18000 per minute ( 300/s ) at normal run speed.

With the new system with 4 stops to maintain to maintain perma Swiftness using Staff#3 you can travel 19152 range ( 319.2/s avg ).

If you cast on the move to stack 4 seconds without stopping then your range per minute is 19584 ( 326.4/s avg )

With the current system OR with the new system if you have bigger symbols and can reliably get a second tick whilst running through for 8 seconds per cast then your range per minute is 21168 ( 352.8/s avg )

With perma swiftness from multiple guards on the move your per minute range is 23940 ( 399/s )

This doesn’t attempt to factor in boon duration

mix in retreat in that equation and with 5 or 20% boon duration and see what the outcome is.

And you dont have to stop to get hit by two ticks

Much like purging flames, me thinks it was better to not take any “buffs” if this is their idea of one.

apologies, had to step out for the day – otherwise I would have posted this earlier:

Average speed in units per second against Boon Duration

Boon Duration:	+0%	+20%	+60%	+100%
————————————-	———-	———	———	———
Normal Run Speed	300	300	300	300
Stop to fully stack	324.19	336.66	352.24	361.59
Cast on the move	326.4	331.68	342.24	352.8
Cast on the move (2 ticks)	352.8	363.36	384.48	399
Current System	352.8	363.36	384.48	399
Perma Swiftness	399	399	399	399
–
JI/Sword#2/GS#3	433.3	433.3	433.3	433.3
JI/Sword#2/GS#3/Traveler	518.3	518.3	518.3	518.3

Approximate time in seconds to run from Sunnyhill to Garrison NW gate

Boon Duration:	+0%	+20%	+60%	+100%
————————————-	———-	———	———	———
Normal Run Speed	26.67	26.67	26.67	26.67
Stop to fully stack	24.68	23.76	22.71	22.12
Cast on the move	24.51	24.12	23.38	22.68
Cast on the move (2 ticks)	22.68	22.02	20.81	20.05
Current System	22.68	22.02	20.81	20.05
Perma Swiftness	20.05	20.05	20.05	20.05
–
JI/Sword#2/GS#3	18.46	18.46	18.46	18.46
JI/Sword#2/GS#3/Traveler	15.43	15.43	15.43	15.43

This is adjusted from my previous example to take account of the fact you only need to linger for 3 seconds, rather than 4 inside the symbol to stack full duration

Looks like it’s only worth stopping to stack swiftness if you have 20% boon duration or above, unless you have big symbols, in which case it’s always better to keep moving

The real problem is that they’te trying to balance the swiftness duration and stick to the clumsy limitations of a pulsing ground symbol. The solution is pretty clear: just make the swiftness boon an AoE, while keeping the ground symbol for the damage and the light field. Then the Dev’s can just pick the swiftness duration that they feel is appropriate.

I realize this means a change from the time-honored ground application that has existed since launch. So what? Just make it work. And its not like Staff doesn’t have other AoE boons (e.g., Empower).

tl;dr: Think outside the box Anet. Let Staff #3 give AoE swiftness without standing in the symbol.

You mean use save yourselves or retreat! for swifness ? Please enlighten me how exactly and precisely do i “think outside the box” as a front runner ? You know, where your utility slots are already being taken up by group buffs and stabilities and combos such as sword#2 arent really an option.

Again, not mid liner, not back side text chat plinker, but as a front runner often with my tag up.

Tongku.5326:

You mean use save yourselves or retreat! for swifness ? Please enlighten me how exactly and precisely do i “think outside the box” as a front runner ? You know, where your utility slots are already being taken up by group buffs and stabilities and combos such as sword#2 arent really an option.

Again, not mid liner, not back side text chat plinker, but as a front runner often with my tag up.

You either didn’t read my post, or it wasn’t clear. I’ll try again:

Staff skill #3 should (a) apply an AoE swiftness buff on the Guardian and allies (duration chosen by the Dev’s, but probably in the 8-12s range), AND (b) cast a ground symbol that damages foes and acts as a light field.

The only positive thing I can see coming from this is maybe it’’ll proc AH more than it did.

Added average speed of Meditation guard with no swiftness or traveler runes and plenty of critters

Xae Isareth.1364:

The only positive thing I can see coming from this is maybe it’’ll proc AH more than it did.

It’s a net positive if you’re ‘stacking’ for buffs Which I hope is unintended, because the very idea of stacking is part of what’s wrong with WvW in this game…

It’s a positive for the overall game and game design…because having buffs that break the rules and aren’t consistent is….well lame.

Other than that, it’s pretty much a nerf for the main use of speed boost while running for Guardians. Even though many people in WvW probably have big symbols…let’s face it you’re not going to get 2 ticks consistently.

This cloaked update (I didn’t see any notice of it in the update notes) is definitely NOT an improvement to those of us who use the skill as a means to apply swiftness on the go. Please revert it. Many thanks.

Combatter.5123:

This cloaked update (I didn’t see any notice of it in the update notes) is definitely NOT an improvement to those of us who use the skill as a means to apply swiftness on the go. Please revert it. Many thanks.

Are you a necro? cos this post died 2 years ago and you brought it back.

Spartacus.3192:

Combatter.5123:

This cloaked update (I didn’t see any notice of it in the update notes) is definitely NOT an improvement to those of us who use the skill as a means to apply swiftness on the go. Please revert it. Many thanks.

Are you a necro? cos this post died 2 years ago and you brought it back.

It died a month ago. And I brought it back cos it’s still relevant. Is that a big problem for you?

The last post before yours was 2 years ago (Nov 5th 2013). Where do you see a month ago?

Anyway its not a problem. i was just having some fun seeing a 2 year old thread resurrected.

Hey, Spart

Stupid minimum length.

I don’t see a year quoted at all – it just says “November 5th, 22:25”. Must be Anet’s rubbish forum software. :-P