(edited by TheBizi.6578)
Defender's Dogma - Why?
Before Karl posted some changes comming to Dragonhunter in the next BWE this trait was really weak, but it will become better… in the future:
- Spear of Justice passive will apply 1.5s of Cripple,
- Whenever you Cripple a foe you apply a stack of Vulnerbility(8s).
Defenders Dogma bypasses the five hits interval. it does not take SoJ off CD which would totaly be insane and basically mean that we can use the active too freely giving us to much aoe blind and burn.
So the minor is only effective if VoJ is not on CD. But that is also true for many other of our minor traits and I do not see you complain about them.
Defenders Dogma loses some value if you have supreme justice … but guess what you can now take AR and be compensated by DD. IF you still take it then you need to work for the benefit it gives.
e.g.: symbols & traps will cause burn while you activate shelter or focus #5 more frequently.
this trait and the trait Assic mentioned in combo with hunters fortification will turn mace #3 into skil that will cause:
- block
- big damage
- 1 stack of burn (2 when traited radiance*)
- cripple
- remove one condition
On a 15 sec CD. the trait is a kittening thing of beauty if you ask me. Lots of synergy … works well with Shattered Aegis and permeating wrath.
- add in rune of the defender and rejoice.
I have mentioned this before, it is a serious issue. Here are the Traits that buff the active F1 effect and the passive F1 effect.
Active
- Justice Is blind
- Renewed Justice
- Wrath of Justice
- Inspired Virtues
- Virtue of Retribution
- Supreme Justice
- Big Game Hunter
Passive
- Supreme Justice
- Permeating Wrath
- Defenders Dogma
- Zealot’s Aggression
They designed our virtues to be used. Yet four of our traits encourage us to never use.
This is strongly shown in the current condi burn guard build were you must never active F1 in order to stack burning quicker with ‘Supreme Justice’ and to spread the burning in a AOE with ‘Permeating Wrath’.
I see two possible solutions, change the traits that buff the passive effect to buff the active.
OR.
Allow the passive to permanently stay even if F1 is on cool-down.
I see two possible solutions, change the traits that buff the passive effect to buff the active.
well that logic is flawed. The traits buff the passiv and naturally that encourages to not use them. but who is to say you can not go both directions? This is a too way street. A problem only exists if you consider not using them more boring or if the actives contradict themsleves which is only true for VoJ/SoJ in some ways. Keeping VoJ/SoJ passiv is only better in Condition builds so it is easier to argue that Aplified Wrath and Radiant Fire are misplaced in the Radiance Trait line since the go to Grandmaster contradicts 2/3 of the minors.
F2 and F3 are more of a “oh kitten I need that now” button – which F1 is also if you do not go into condi or it is used for added support in terms of damage and retal.
I do get what you saying though. instead of evening out this two way street anets creating more and more reasons not to use the F1. However in no situation the minors are a total waste. if you hapen to have them – so I would not call that a serious issue.
Allow the passive to permanently stay even if F1 is on cool-down.
Well no one would argue with that. Although it would make F1 incredibly OP. having twice as much VoC pop out double the amount of aegis is also something that will heavy impact guardian performance.
IMO this could be a grandmaster trait that replaces Radiant Retaliation which still is the dumbest trait ever since it is contradicting Amplified Wrath. It would give an incentive besides crit chance to go into radiance if you are not running condi build.
Defender’s Dogma is about as worthwhile as Signet of Mercy.
While I can see the points Asmodal is making, I have to agree with the OP and others: Defender’s Dogma is an absolutely awful and ridiculous trait for Dragonhunters, especially as a minor. If we already had a fantastic set of minor and major traits and one extra trait slot that no one had a good idea for, it might possibly be useful there; but we don’t, and one of the reasons we don’t is that nobody seems to be able to figure out just what they want DH to do.
Yes, defensive traits are great, and yes, defensive and on-block abilities fit the vanilla Guardian theme — but for the most part they do not fit the Dragonhunter theme, and since Guardians already have fantastic access to defensive and on-block trait and skill sets, they really should not occupy a central or major part of the trait set-up for a specialization that plays very differently and has in its own skillset very, very little access to block. We really, really need to start focusing on what the Dragonhunter is actually supposed to be (which is something along the lines of a relatively selfish ranged, pre-emptive, area control damage-dealer). Otherwise, it will continue to lack focus and try to go in too many directions at once.
Defender’s Dogma would fit the Radiance trait line great (in fact, it’s almost a rip-off of the trait already in that line); or it would fit a spec. that specialized in blocking things and passive boon use. But the Dragonhunter specializes in neither of those; it is an offensive hunter class with specially-designed active Virtues that are meant to be activated. If the traits and virtues don’t begin to be reworked to reflect that idea and reward the active use of the virtues more than they punish it, then the spec. will never mean anything, because no one will ever use any of the new stuff, because it will be more powerful to not bother with it. Nobody really wants that, because then it would defeat the purpose of having an elite specialization in the first place.
I realize not everybody wants or likes a relatively selfish, ranged damage/area control class with traps, especially as the E.Spec. for Guardians, but come on, people, since that’s what we’ve got, let’s at least focus on how we can make it do what it’s supposed to and do it as well and in as interesting, powerful, and fun a manner as possible, rather than trying to make it do everything that it can’t and shouldn’t.
(edited by RebornbyFire.7913)
Defenders Dogma loses some value if you have supreme justice … but guess what you can now take AR and be compensated by DD. IF you still take it then you need to work for the benefit it gives.
e.g.: symbols & traps will cause burn while you activate shelter or focus #5 more frequently.
I wish that the trade off is there but… it just isn’t.
It takes Scepter#2 + A Symbol/Trap/other-AoE-Effect
as well as
a Focus/Shelter for it to be some what useful.
Do you realize how difficult it is to block multiple attacks while also concurrently applying multiple blocks? It’s why Defender’s Dogma is lacking.
Block 3 attacks, apply only one 250 (average) damaging burn… Defender’s Dogma need to have it’s own effect, the ability to store these F1 activations so that it applies more burns. Storing a max of 3 F1 procs seems reasonable for the trait, considering that will complement Focus#5 and Shelter block mechanics.
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Really, again, think about what the DH is supposed to be and do, and then remember that the minor traits are supposed to really define in broad strokes the theme of the specialization and give it the base tools it needs to do its job in any of a number of particular ways. What we need from minor trait line is mobility for us, so we can hunt and position ourselves, and the ability to destroy the enemy’s mobility, so that we can hunt and catch them. Defender’s Dogma doesn’t belong in the minor trait line; we need a mobility trait there — one that fits the DH theme and rewards the use of its new mechanics. Something like, “Activating a Virtue grants swiftness.” In the GM Minor slot, we don’t need Pure of Sight, we need the updated version of Zealot’s Aggression: “Justice’s passive also causes cripple.” Those two changes, and all of a sudden, we have a theme, and the foundational tools to do our job. Then if the active effect of Spear of Justice were buffed enough to make it worthwhile, like by giving it a flip skill pull, or making it pulse more damage, or something, and if Big Game Hunter also caused the passive of Justice to remain after it was activated, we’d be in business, at least in the Virtues side of things.
This trait is pointless. What DH needs is some mobility and this trait can be changed to help sort that problem out.
Either via a passive speed boost or via Swiftness on skill use. (Could be from Longbow or Virtues).
Some ideas:
Gain 5s of Swiftness + Justice reaches it’s maximum charge on weapon swap in combat.
Critical hits grant Swiftness 3s (50% chance)
If you ask me, it’s not even a matter of it not fitting the general idea of the elite spec. It’s just an awful, useless trait. Even if you don’t count the fact that it doesn’t have any effect while Spear of Justice is on cooldown, we already have so much access to multi-hit attacks that proc the virtue passive in quick succession that it’s 100% a waste of a minor trait slot. It needs to be scrapped entirely in favor of something that will actually do something noticeable.
I realize not everybody wants or likes a relatively selfish, ranged damage/area control class with traps, especially as the E.Spec. for Guardians, but come on, people, since that’s what we’ve got, let’s at least focus on how we can make it do what it’s supposed to and do it as well and in as interesting, powerful, and fun a manner as possible, rather than trying to make it do everything that it can’t and shouldn’t.
Well stated. Dragonhunter is about snares, positioning and damage, while base guardian focuses on support and active defense. So Defender’s Dogma is a misplaced trait.
As for what would fit – perhaps something like “gain swiftness when you use a healing, utility or elite skill” – would help with traps at least since they require you to run around to place.
Before Karl posted some changes comming to Dragonhunter in the next BWE this trait was really weak, but it will become better… in the future:
- Spear of Justice passive will apply 1.5s of Cripple,
Good, fits the theme and helps the playstyle.
The vuln effect I though was already in the game in one of the traits.