Guild Wars 2

It seems like it. Forget about condition removal, how about this?

Signet of Vengeance: Condition Damage triggers Retaliation.

What is your ideas?

I…would…LOVE that….but I’m sure it is considered OP as it was brought up in the past and I was greeted with heavy negativity.

What bout change Searing Flames to: VoJ procs remove 1 condition from self and/or maybe 5 allies?

How about a trait in radiance that gives you x% chance to procc retal on condiotions based on equipt signets. Lets call it perfect inscriptions.

lets say 25% per equipped signet so if you have 4 you would have a 100% chance to procc retal on conditions.

It would be powerful as hell but on the other you would have to give up all utilities for rather poor ones. It would counter meta but be close to useless versus direct damage.

Obtena.7952:

It seems like it. Forget about condition removal, how about this?

Signet of Vengeance: Condition Damage triggers Retaliation.

What is your ideas?

Don’t need a new signet for that – this is what Signet of Wrath should do… ( well, with a % proc chance )

..active, condition duration reduction+weakness for x seconds?

I don’t think Anet sees an issue with the condition meta, so this thread is pointless.

Why would I want Retal when I’m being hit w/ Conditions?

Give me MIGHT when I"m being hit w/ Condi….
Give me Fury when I’m being hit w/ Condi….
Give me Stability when I’m being hit w/ Condi…

Not Retal..

We need more DAMAGE in our current Bunker Builds.

Bottom Line.

would love a passive punishing counter to conditions (since there is 2 to direct damage)……but it should be an option that’s worked into ALL classes….and it should be proportional to the damage conditions do.

whether it is a signet passive or a trait….this really should be implemented.

How dare you say Guards need something Amins….

HOW
DARE
YOU

;)

Amins.3710:

Why would I want Retal when I’m being hit w/ Conditions?

Give me MIGHT when I"m being hit w/ Condi….
Give me Fury when I’m being hit w/ Condi….
Give me Stability when I’m being hit w/ Condi…

Not Retal..

We need more DAMAGE in our current Bunker Builds.

Bottom Line.

Problem there is you are wanting boons on condi damage. While most of the time the condi damage is coming from professions you don’t really want boons against. It’s just one more thing for them to steal, convert, or purge at your expense.

Now if they had something that wasn’t a boon that would be different.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Amins.3710:

Why would I want Retal when I’m being hit w/ Conditions?

Give me MIGHT when I"m being hit w/ Condi….
Give me Fury when I’m being hit w/ Condi….
Give me Stability when I’m being hit w/ Condi…

Not Retal..

We need more DAMAGE in our current Bunker Builds.

Bottom Line.

Problem there is you are wanting boons on condi damage. While most of the time the condi damage is coming from professions you don’t really want boons against. It’s just one more thing for them to steal, convert, or purge at your expense.

Now if they had something that wasn’t a boon that would be different.

well said………a necro will wreck you if the counter was boon based……….and we already ahve a condi conversion skill.

I don’t see alot of benefit to getting boons on condition damage … We are already drown in boons, whenever we want them. That would simply give us the same thing we have now. We know how that works.

Retal on condition damage will definitely have a meta impact.

New Boon:
-50% condition duration

Well there have been some interesting suggestions put forward. Remove a condition when you cause burning, Flat condi duration trait, what else reducing current condi duration by a percent when you crit, buffing smite condi to remove more than one conditions if one of the three meditation traits are taken etc.

There are plenty of good suggestions, but I honestly don’t think any of them will get implemented. I also don’t think they address the basic problem that the condi meta was built around. It’s simple ease of stat allocation.

Take condi bunker, you need either condi damage/toughness/vitality/healing power. Just 3 of the 4, there are gear sets that work with all of those. Now compare it what a guardian needs to survive. We need power, precision, crit damage, and vitality. Now that’s not even assuming we regen much at all. Condi bunker specs get so much more from limited stats.

I suppose they could just replace crit damage with scaling from power, but that won’t happen. The most likely conclusion is that Anet simply doesn’t know a way out of the current situation without major nerfs.

Funny thing is, conditions are considered worthless in PvE and overpowered in PvP.

25 stack limit is a heartache in PvE and a blessing in PvP.

Ease of application is a DPS killer in PvE (ccause your dps get clipped by allies) and just lawlz in PvP.

I almost forget that PvP and PvE can be/should be split saying all this.

From a tpvp point of view:

Honestly, in my opinion, in tpvp we’re fine with the condition meta except in 1v1 situations.
Which is a good thing,
except: Guardians who do not spec Bunker or Support should have a way to deal with conditions in a 1 on 1 sense. Keeping that in mind the solutions (which I’ll refer to as X for this next part) should adhere to the following criteria:

• Pure of Voice and X should not be synergetic.
• X should have a heavy investment.
• X should give you significant advantage over those spec’d entirely as a condition spec but not over those with few conditions.

I forgot one point because I had to go take a massive dump, the knowledge has clearly been lost forever in the sewage realm, if it returns to me I will definitely post it.

Using this criteria we can build ideas which don’t break the game. We don’t want to completely destroy condition builds (well maybe you want to but we’ll just break the balance in a different way) so we do have to be careful.
Some ideas for a trait would be (cooldown in brackets):

• When you apply retaliation you lose a condition (2s)
• Critical hits remove 3 conditions from yourself and nearby allies (20s)
• When you apply burning you lose 2 conditions (2s)
• When a condition is applied to you, gain 2 stacks of might for 10s (3s)

This would mean X would take the place of the 25point trait in radiance for it to be viable, resulting in Radiant Power replacing Searing Flames as a 10 point trait.
This gives us a new range of cool viable builds and prevents bunkers from stacking a ton of condition removal without a lot of sacrifice.

• Bunker sacrificing a lot of defence to use X which gives a lot of offence, meaning you get a cool hybrid which would be weak against non-condition players: http://tinyurl.com/pd6mv8f
• DPS sacrificing 2h mastery, hp and PoV/Selfless daring to use X which makes the build extremely strong against condition classes but weaker against others: http://tinyurl.com/ow7ufzq
• Burst would be able to now run more support without the need for contemplation making them more viable in the meta: http://tinyurl.com/op3gprw

This is the only solution I can really see that won’t give us too much power, and it pretty much solves the problems everybody above me is having.
I realise there were a few trait mistakes due to me rushing through, you should know what I mean though, and there are different builds depending on which idea for X would be chosen (15 in virtues would be a strong one for the retal option).

I also didn’t put skill ideas up because I’m lazy and they’d probably be less effective, if you’d like to hear some of the ideas gimme a shout.

Hope this helped theory craft.

Jax.5261:

From a tpvp point of view:

Honestly, in my opinion, in tpvp we’re fine with the condition meta except in 1v1 situations.
Which is a good thing,
except: Guardians who do not spec Bunker or Support should have a way to deal with conditions in a 1 on 1 sense. Keeping that in mind the solutions (which I’ll refer to as X for this next part) should adhere to the following criteria:

• Pure of Voice and X should not be synergetic.
• X should have a heavy investment.
• X should give you significant advantage over those spec’d entirely as a condition spec but not over those with few conditions.

I forgot one point because I had to go take a massive dump, the knowledge has clearly been lost forever in the sewage realm, if it returns to me I will definitely post it.

Using this criteria we can build ideas which don’t break the game. We don’t want to completely destroy condition builds (well maybe you want to but we’ll just break the balance in a different way) so we do have to be careful.
Some ideas for a trait would be (cooldown in brackets):

• When you apply retaliation you lose a condition (2s)
• Critical hits remove 3 conditions from yourself and nearby allies (20s)
• When you apply burning you lose 2 conditions (2s)
• When a condition is applied to you, gain 2 stacks of might for 10s (3s)

This would mean X would take the place of the 25point trait in radiance for it to be viable, resulting in Radiant Power replacing Searing Flames as a 10 point trait.
This gives us a new range of cool viable builds and prevents bunkers from stacking a ton of condition removal without a lot of sacrifice.

• Bunker sacrificing a lot of defence to use X which gives a lot of offence, meaning you get a cool hybrid which would be weak against non-condition players: http://tinyurl.com/pd6mv8f
• DPS sacrificing 2h mastery, hp and PoV/Selfless daring to use X which makes the build extremely strong against condition classes but weaker against others: http://tinyurl.com/ow7ufzq
• Burst would be able to now run more support without the need for contemplation making them more viable in the meta: http://tinyurl.com/op3gprw

This is the only solution I can really see that won’t give us too much power, and it pretty much solves the problems everybody above me is having.
I realise there were a few trait mistakes due to me rushing through, you should know what I mean though, and there are different builds depending on which idea for X would be chosen (15 in virtues would be a strong one for the retal option).

I also didn’t put skill ideas up because I’m lazy and they’d probably be less effective, if you’d like to hear some of the ideas gimme a shout.

Hope this helped theory craft.

this is probably one of the most thought thru posts i seen in these forums. Well done

May i suggest that you start a new thread since it will have a greater chance of being spotted by a dev.

+1

Brutaly.6257:

this is probably one of the most thought thru posts i seen in these forums. Well done

May i suggest that you start a new thread since it will have a greater chance of being spotted by a dev.

+1

Agreed. I’m fairly sure this will apply outside of tPvP also, although it’ll be super difficult to make balanced changes while keeping both PvE and WvWers happy. Referring to someone else’s suggestion, I’d be very surprised if we ever see Anet willing to diverge PvE and WvW skillsets ( simply because they can’t test changes to WvW meta until it’s live )

Jax.5261:

I forgot one point because I had to go take a massive dump, the knowledge has clearly been lost forever in the sewage realm, if it returns to me I will definitely post it.

chuckle The toilet is usually the place to find inspiration, so perhaps you should take another dump to help you remember your forgotten points…

@Jax:

The things you wrote are solid for sure. Some are more passive than I’d be comfortable with but mostly good nonetheless… Problem is I think these would just be a band-aid fix to the problem and we’d end up going in power-creep circles.

GSSBlunaspike is completely correct on this: It’s the condi builds with high offensive output and high investment into defence that’s causing all the issues. Buffing condi removal has the same effect as nerfing condi builds, but it just makes the game even more complicated…

In PvP they need to be forced to use more offensive stats to make the condition damage more effective, so yes a ‘nerf’ to those builds. Arena Net are skirting around the issue (which is fair since condition damage as an option needs time to work) but in all fairness, it’s dull play and they just need to nerf condi’ damage and be done with it. They’ve tried to make condition damage a choice but it failed imo. It should go back to being an augmentation of physical damage instead.

Red.3572:

@Jax:

The things you wrote are solid for sure. Some are more passive than I’d be comfortable with but mostly good nonetheless… Problem is I think these would just be a band-aid fix to the problem and we’d end up going in power-creep circles.

GSSBlunaspike is completely correct on this: It’s the condi builds with high offensive output and high investment into defence that’s causing all the issues. Buffing condi removal has the same effect as nerfing condi builds, but it just makes the game even more complicated…

In PvP they need to be forced to use more offensive stats to make the condition damage more effective, so yes a ‘nerf’ to those builds. Arena Net are skirting around the issue (which is fair since condition damage as an option needs time to work) but in all fairness, it’s dull play and they just need to nerf condi’ damage and be done with it. They’ve tried to make condition damage a choice but it failed imo. It should go back to being an augmentation of physical damage instead.

(Just a note before I type anything: This is not flame towards ANet, this is purely my observations from the updates since the Beta and for once I’m not being sarcastic.)

Here’s the problem at the moment: Arena Net’s Mindset.
Currently, they will not want to revamp any part of the game for balance. Maybe this may happen down the road but definitely not in the near future, thus they are searching for band-aid fixes for now. This is most likely due to bigger fixes coming later but they’d take time to implement (we’ll assume this and not that they don’t care, I’m sure they care about their game a great deal).
Thus to give ANet ideas in terms of balance we have to off solutions that are:

• Practical
• Small
• Well thought out, in terms of what the change will interact with

tl;dr: I only offer band-aid solutions because those are the only solutions they’re looking for in this particular forum.

The second part of my post is explaining something that’s continuously looked over by a lot of people.
The problem with the meta condition builds is that they’re spammable and AoE, these two attributes should be mutually exclusive BUT due to the way the game works they also can’t be. This may sound weird but the real nerf is actually needed in evades first and then conditions (ideally at the same time haha). Currently this game takes no skill to play, absolutely none, it’s about spamming defence or spamming offence. If you nerf the offensive abilities then you’re stuck with defensive spam which is equally as broken!
To nerf spam offence we need to reduce evades (including dodges) down to 2 dodges + 1 evade skill per 20seconds MAXIMUM instead of 8+ like every meta build has currently.
Unfortunately this breaks the Guardian and Thief, but again this is a complete revamp, which is why I can’t really suggest it here. It’s an obvious one too, would fix the game a significant deal and allow for much better and fun play. I do know how to revamp the Guardian for these changes so that they wouldn’t be nerfed but that is for another post.

/serious mode off.

Somehow watching your bottom bar and removing conditions is now skilled play.

Conditions are supposed to be slow damage so the builds that use conditions have been given survivability in their design and gearing.

Quite simply so many can be stacked on so quickly, that they are now fast damage, yet the buids still have survivability.

And that is what is wrong with the meta.

As a Guardian if I spec survivability, my damage is really poor. But a lot of classes can spec surivivability and do quite high damage with conditions. There is very little trade off.

So they can either make it harder to stack up that much damage or make the condition spammers squishy. They won’t do either…. for a while at least.

Yeahh….this new meta is crap. Its anti-skill in every single way shape and form. Frankly, dodges have lost a lot of effect considering you can’t dodge condi’s on you. AND if you have confusion, chances are, you’ll take even more damage if you dodge.

Yup…..dropped every single ball on that one.

Relentliss.2170:

Somehow watching your bottom bar and removing conditions is now skilled play.

Conditions are supposed to be slow damage so the builds that use conditions have been given survivability in their design and gearing.

Quite simply so many can be stacked on so quickly, that they are now fast damage, yet the buids still have survivability.

And that is what is wrong with the meta.

As a Guardian if I spec survivability, my damage is really poor. But a lot of classes can spec surivivability and do quite high damage with conditions. There is very little trade off.

So they can either make it harder to stack up that much damage or make the condition spammers squishy. They won’t do either…. for a while at least.

I think it’s less that they “won’t do either”, and more that they “can’t do either”.

To me, and I’m well aware my opinion means very little, it’s a problem with the core game. The three stat armor system they have is incredibly flawed. That and they launched the game with flaws that make balance almost impossible. Having different professions with different base health, yet allowing those professions to build in similar fashions creates issues.

Jax I think you’ve made a good point. Maybe they have some sweeping changes in mind for the future. I don’t see how they can possibly implement anything with the current system though. It would require complete overhauls of so much, not the least of which would be huge splits between pve/pvp in skills, condition durations/damage, systems, gear etc. So much would have to be changes, I just don’t think it’s possible this late in the game. The most likely result will be bandaid fixes that will only make things worse in the long run.

I am not sure what they can do besides more condition removal and duration reduction.

In LoL which has good pvp there are very few Dots. GW2 could have learned something here.

Relentliss.2170:

I am not sure what they can do besides more condition removal and duration reduction.

In LoL which has good pvp there are very few Dots. GW2 could have learned something here.

LoL got so much right when it comes to combat. If gw2 would have let condi damage, crit damage, etc scale off of base power they could have avoided the entire stat issue to begin with. Some people will argue that it would have made GW2 too simple, but that would have freed them up to add in the complexity into other areas.

I enjoy games that have good scaling, because it lets you make adjustments to the system without throwing it completely out of control.

For an example assume that bleeding now deals 5% of your power per stack. Oh wait, guys bleeding damage is too powerful. Now instead of having to go through and nerf a variety of things, they simply reduce the ratio to .045 or .04. Yes it’s a somewhat simpler system for stats, but it lets you adjust things. It also frees up build variety. Instead of having to have a set of gear for condi damage, and one for power damage etc you can have one or two sets that cover a variety of different builds.

For a LoL example you have ADs that generally build 4 similar items, the other two items can be changed depending on the ad. So if you imagine the 4 similar items being gear, then the other 2 become different traits. Though LoL has that too where you can set your masteries/runes and then build to augment your deficiencies. It’s like running a support mastery vlad, then for my runes I go with 4% spell vamp, ap, mpen, and then hp/level yellows vs some opponents. I can switch the masteries/runes though depending on who I’m facing. LoL for all of the simplicity behind certain things, has some very complicated things built into it. Those are not part of the game so to speak, the complexity comes with the actual game play. How you build to augment your strengths, and cover your weaknesses. Then the game changes based on each opponent. Then there is the fact that dots in this game are effectively true damage, and there is a reason that is used very sparingly. Once you remove an opponents ability to defend against something you’ve removed counter play from the entire engagement.

Sorry that’s a lot of text, I’ve played LoL since season 1 though. I’ve been with LoL through so many changes, but what I’ve put above is something I really appreciate about the game.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Relentliss.2170:

I am not sure what they can do besides more condition removal and duration reduction.

In LoL which has good pvp there are very few Dots. GW2 could have learned something here.

LoL got so much right when it comes to combat. If gw2 would have let condi damage, crit damage, etc scale off of base power they could have avoided the entire stat issue to begin with. Some people will argue that it would have made GW2 too simple, but that would have freed them up to add in the complexity into other areas.

I enjoy games that have good scaling, because it lets you make adjustments to the system without throwing it completely out of control.

For an example assume that bleeding now deals 5% of your power per stack. Oh wait, guys bleeding damage is too powerful. Now instead of having to go through and nerf a variety of things, they simply reduce the ratio to .045 or .04. Yes it’s a somewhat simpler system for stats, but it lets you adjust things. It also frees up build variety. Instead of having to have a set of gear for condi damage, and one for power damage etc you can have one or two sets that cover a variety of different builds.

For a LoL example you have ADs that generally build 4 similar items, the other two items can be changed depending on the ad. So if you imagine the 4 similar items being gear, then the other 2 become different traits. Though LoL has that too where you can set your masteries/runes and then build to augment your deficiencies. It’s like running a support mastery vlad, then for my runes I go with 4% spell vamp, ap, mpen, and then hp/level yellows vs some opponents. I can switch the masteries/runes though depending on who I’m facing. LoL for all of the simplicity behind certain things, has some very complicated things built into it. Those are not part of the game so to speak, the complexity comes with the actual game play. How you build to augment your strengths, and cover your weaknesses. Then the game changes based on each opponent. Then there is the fact that dots in this game are effectively true damage, and there is a reason that is used very sparingly. Once you remove an opponents ability to defend against something you’ve removed counter play from the entire engagement.

Sorry that’s a lot of text, I’ve played LoL since season 1 though. I’ve been with LoL through so many changes, but what I’ve put above is something I really appreciate about the game.

I think a really good point to bring up would be that GW1 got it right in the first place, you know the game they made beforehand. They can look to their previous game rather than one from a different genre.
I’m not saying League shouldn’t influence GW2, but that GW1 should bare a massive influence into the design of GW2 seeing as it was so well designed and they have all the coding/statistics/equipment from it.

Personally I just don’t see why conditions are about damage in the first place… There are some potentially powerful and interesting effects in there but instead the focus is on how many you have on you and how far they drop your hp. I mean honestly how redundant is that when you already have a power spec to begin with?

This is why I’m in favour of nuking the condition damage system for the most part and make conditions outside of potentially bleeding to be more about effect. A soft CC effect some classes have that augments their damage.

Chill for example is effectively a weak version of Diversion from GW 1 (one of the best designed skills in the game). Using a skill while this debuff was on you would take that skill out of play for a significantly encounter defining amount of time.

Imagine if Necro Staff 3 or Chilblains did semi-decent damage, was single target, well telegraphed, was costly to use (I guess in this game that’s simply animation time and cool down), but utterly discouraged skill spam out-side of auto attack? If conditions were played like that in an environment with controlled evades like Helseth and Jax have mentioned, you wouldn’t need so many of them on one build and they would be so much more rewarding to play…

Edit:

Wanted to add that immobilise already works like this. Guardian sceptre immobilise for example is a perfect example of how conditions should work. It’s insanely powerful , short duration, yet doesn’t do a single bit of damage…. It facilitates damage.

Red.3572:

Personally I just don’t see why conditions are about damage in the first place… There are some potentially powerful and interesting effects in there but instead the focus is on how many you have on you and how far they drop your hp. I mean honestly how redundant is that when you already have a power spec to begin with?

This is why I’m in favour of nuking the condition damage system for the most part and make conditions outside of potentially bleeding to be more about effect. A soft CC effect some classes have that augments their damage.

Chill for example is effectively a weak version of Diversion from GW 1 (one of the best designed skills in the game). Using a skill while this debuff was on you would take that skill out of play for a significantly encounter defining amount of time.

Imagine if Necro Staff 3 or Chilblains did semi-decent damage, was single target, well telegraphed, was costly to use (I guess in this game that’s simply animation time and cool down), but utterly discouraged skill spam out-side of auto attack? If conditions were played like that in an environment with controlled evades like Helseth and Jax have mentioned, you wouldn’t need so many of them on one build and they would be so much more rewarding to play…

Edit:

Wanted to add that immobilise already works like this. Guardian sceptre immobilise for example is a perfect example of how conditions should work. It insanely powerful , short duration, yet doesn’t do a single bit of damage.

Although I agree with most of what you are saying, the problem at the moment is everything is spam, not just conditions, defensive skills are all spammed too. To fix this we have to list the ideal direction for the solution.

• Clumping/Balling up together must be punishable by AoE skills
• AoE skills must have large drawbacks as their affects can be many times stronger than normal skills
• Evading incorrectly should be punished harshly
• Nothing should be spammable
• All skills need a 3/4s (important survival skills usually) – 1s (most skills) cast time (or higher) unless they’re reactive (interrupts / blocks) then they’re instant.

Quickly going to use Mark of Blood (Necro Staff 2) as an example.
It is the perfect skill to analyze because it can actually be balanced. Now (assuming the meta build) it gives 1k healing to allies inside and 3stacks of bleeding AoE (3.5k damage / player) unfortunately the cast time is 3/4s, the recharge is 4.75s and the animation is the same as the other marks.
If the skill was a 20s Recharge, 1s cast time and 4 stacks of bleeding and each enemy player had only 1.5 dodges per 10 seconds this skill would be incredibly strong in the hands of a good player but significantly worse in the hands of a bad player. It would take skill and timing to know when to use it, the AoE would also have to be slightly reduced of course but the point is: this skill and all skills can be balanced fairly easily with basic changes and a change in evades.

Now most important to note here is that I’m hungry and I’m going to go make chicken stir fry mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and will continue later with how to make the game more rewarding… my stomach is grumbling, bai!

Seriously? You end with you’re going to make Stir-fry chicken for yourself? You need to be re-balanced! When you make that, you make it for everyone. AoE skill, 4 hour CD.

On a serious note, I understand what you’re saying for sure. You could implement what I suggest without changes to defence also. For example, fire and forget boons like Retaliate. This skill has so much potential for skilful play it’s unreal…

Imagine:

> Player X just got a immob on them

> Player Y thinks “Could be a fake out” But decides to drop a short duration (3 sec or so), costly, AoE Retal that’s can truly reflect 50% of all incoming damage and reduces damage by that same number.

Outcome A:
Player X gets spiked but is saved by epic retal skill ‘Stir Fry Chicken’ and the enemy team take some team-wide damage and fail a spike.

Outcome B:
It was a fake and the enemy team burns some sacrificial CD’s but have caused Player Y to burn his ‘Stir Fry Chicken’ and his team is now more susceptible to a weaker spike the from the enemy team.

Then you go “oh sh..” as you throw in variables like the enemy dropping a modified Chilblains on Player Y before the immob…

(Yeah you could totally merge Protection and Retaliate and achieve a much more interesting boon.)

Red.3572:

Seriously? You end with you’re going to make Stir-fry chicken for yourself? You need to be re-balanced! When you make that, you make it for everyone. AoE skill, 4 hour CD.

On a serious note, I understand what you’re saying for sure. You could implement what I suggest without changes to defence also. For example, fire and forget boons like Retaliate. This skill has so much potential for skilful play it’s unreal…

Imagine:

> Player X just got a immob on them

> Player Y thinks “Could be a fake out” But decides to drop a short duration (3 sec or so), costly, AoE Retal that’s can truly reflect 50% of all incoming damage and reduces damage by that same number.

………………………………

(Yeah you could totally merge Protection and Retaliate and achieve a much more interesting boon.)

Retaliation in its current iteration is just totally skilless and should be removed.

The above would certainly increase the skill cap and value of the skill.

Where do i sign the petition to introduce “ssssssstir (sizzling in the pan) fried chicken”?

Brutaly.6257:

Where do i sign the petition to introduce “ssssssstir (sizzling in the pan) fried chicken”?

Don’t bother, the stats are no good:

http //wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Sizzling_in_the_Pan_Ssssstirfry_Chicken

Sadly I suspect you will have to wait until Guildwars3 before you see any of these fine ideals materialise

Brutaly.6257:

Red.3572:

Seriously? You end with you’re going to make Stir-fry chicken for yourself? You need to be re-balanced! When you make that, you make it for everyone. AoE skill, 4 hour CD.

On a serious note, I understand what you’re saying for sure. You could implement what I suggest without changes to defence also. For example, fire and forget boons like Retaliate. This skill has so much potential for skilful play it’s unreal…

Imagine:

> Player X just got a immob on them

> Player Y thinks “Could be a fake out” But decides to drop a short duration (3 sec or so), costly, AoE Retal that’s can truly reflect 50% of all incoming damage and reduces damage by that same number.

………………………………

(Yeah you could totally merge Protection and Retaliate and achieve a much more interesting boon.)

Retaliation in its current iteration is just totally skilless and should be removed.

The above would certainly increase the skill cap and value of the skill.

Where do i sign the petition to introduce “ssssssstir (sizzling in the pan) fried chicken”?

No, don’t take retal away. *Those that actually are skilless depend on it, even though its minor damage.

*Disclosure: I’m not pointing fingers at anyone, more or less just ppl like me.

I don’t mind skilless effects countering other skilless effects. Retal vs. condition damage seems reasonable to me.

I laughed at “they care at their game”. Ahhhh…

Charr.

That is all I’m going to say.

What if they added something like destruction of the empowered they gave to warriors but on guardians is like: deal x% more damage for each condition on you?

Wukunlin.8461:

What if they added something like destruction of the empowered they gave to warriors but on guardians is like: deal x% more damage for each condition on you?

Then I would throw my head back and chortle because they missed the mark again.

This is what happens when I try talk about pvp when knowing nothing about them

most problems were mentioned. imo they wanted with the condi/vita/tough stats an equal for power/tough/vita while they didn`t noticed that:

1.) condi dmg is way higher than power dmg
2.) as condi dealer you`re able to stay away of significant dmg income cause of your range. you`re also able to kite, spam your aoe`s behind you while running. well try that as a none aoe based class though..
3.) cd`s are shorter, while still deal more dmg
4.) and additionally they`re able to remove your boons, your f.. last anchor of hope
5.) last but surely not least you`re not able to blind them. even aoe`s should miss, while the player is blinded..

like some guildi told me.. let the necro squeeze you a bit, let them deal there dmg, they`re first target though in a grp fight.

but every class in a None purely class based game should be able to maintain competetive to the others.

anet should look at the condition thief. condition dmg and survivabilty are as high as in every other condi class, while the thief can be blinded/blocked/dodged/rooted. well thief can even rooted dodge esp with sb, you may say, but while he does that, he can`t spam any significant aoe attack and even if he does that, his oponent deals mostly with one or two conditions and not all of them.
other classes like mesmers`s can`t be rooted or stunned while they still deal dmg (aetherfields), necros stand there and suck out your life with vita of at least 3 guards, engis get invisible without internal cd while rooted, if you want two get melee ahh i forgot the bombs with a soon larger radius (rly??…) while he`s still stacking up conditions with granates. wtf and he get`s might while he`s transforming his and his allies conditions into boons.. wth do you need a guard for if you have warris or engis? all i want to say is, it`s balanced on the condi thief, why not on other classes?

whats left.. power isn`t condi dmg, in it`s dmg it`s way lower while you still maintain in a position were foes can hit you. eather give us some kind of perma stability like warris have or make the condi dmg at least power based like retalition and critical hits are.

The Major issue has always been the following:

Direct Damage: Give up defensive capabilities to be able to deal good damage A.k.a go Berserker gear.

Condition Damage: Can Bunker up while maintaining good damage and producing many negative effects such as poison for reduced healing, cripple for movement and blinds etc to avoid damage.

wouldnt an introduction of power/crit/heal (what magi should have been to begin with) gear solve lot of the issues?

Brutaly.6257:

wouldnt an introduction of power/crit/heal (what magi should have been to begin with) gear solve lot of the issues?

It would certainly help a bit – although I’m not sure how it would impact certain builds on other professions, who already have very good/borderline OP damage and health regeneration

Brutaly.6257:

wouldnt an introduction of power/crit/heal (what magi should have been to begin with) gear solve lot of the issues?

In all honestly no. We need 3 stats to deal Good damage where as condition based builds need 1. That is the fatal flaw. We can give up Crit damage, precision or Power and then our DPS drops like a sack of kittens. So we have no space for added survivability in our direct damage set-ups and the mix matching of gear will never make up for the difference + is not possible in Spvp and Tpvp.

In today’s meta, Guardians are nothing more than Cleanse and Stability bots.

@Brutality – They would need to come up w/ a something that resembled the Ascended pwr/prec/cd%/Vit jewelry… even then, the watering down of distribution would occur, still reducing our dmg (while marginally increasing our survivability)… tough/vit/heal/pwr.

Might as well just go full celestial.

The screwed the pooch on the condi gear, making it an all in one gear spec now: Dire is awesome (Tough/Vit/Condi) or the incredible Apoth gear.

Anet’s counter… more condi removal…

Why?

Because they can’t change the stat distribution to all the gear as it would be seen as a huge backpedal nor can/will they change the function of the stat.

And tbh, I still haven’t stepped into WvW w/ my Guard.

I find the Dire items amusing. Its funny how one set of items has so thrown a loop into balance. I am not sure what they were thinking when they came up with them. Previously, condition builds had low toughness and had a weakness to spike damage. Now… not so much. You can go full tank and still chuck out massive damage. That is why they are so OP ATM.

The condition meta is a big problem. The only things I can see them doing is introducing more removal across the classes. Perhaps introducing a new food that helps. And of course new runes and gear to combat them. They will not likely change the stats of or remove a set of gear because of this problem.

As I stated before Condition builds were made to be tanky because their damage is supposed to be slow. But its not. They can stack up tons of conditions in mere seconds. They need to make it slow damage.

The best bet is runes, food, sigils, and abilities to remove them at this point. And/or abilities that increase your spike damage to people who have put conditions on you.
Foe’s Remorse – Does extra damage to a foe who has put a condition on you.
I could also see more skills that turn conditions into boons.

Also, I could see them increasing the base of regeneration of classes that do not have a lot of conditions to even things out, so that you do not need as much healing power for effective healing.

CONDI GUARDIAN 4TW!!!! ZOMG, WE CAN DO IT>..

Just not sure how…..

Amins.3710:

CONDI GUARDIAN 4TW!!!! ZOMG, WE CAN DO IT>..

Just not sure how…..

Burning, man, burning!

1. Place 90s of +CondDmg Burning on target
2. Run around while it takes effect
3. ?
4. Profit!

Alexei.4698:

Burningman!

Woah there trucker… We’re not all druggies

Alexei.4698:

Amins.3710:

CONDI GUARDIAN 4TW!!!! ZOMG, WE CAN DO IT>..

Just not sure how…..

Burning, man, burning!

1. Place 90s of +CondDmg Burning on target
2. Run around while it takes effect
3. ?
4. Profit!

The only way you’d manage to “Profit!” from step four is if step three was:
3. Place a large bet that your enemy is going to destroy you.

Jax.5261:

3. Place a large bet that your enemy is going to destroy you.

That’s assuming you’d get good odds on that bet, which I doubt somewhow ;-)

What about Torch’s 5 skill, Cleansing Flame, working on the Guardian casting the skill too (with proper adjustments where needed)?? You no longer need Pure of Voice or Absolute Resolution… on a DPS weapon! you can now push towards a fully DPS trait set up (and other utility skills included!).

tadah! you now have more build diversity. They should learn from their own changes, improving weapon skills to gain, again, build diversity!… Flanking Strike anyone? <—- without overdoing it though!

Amins.3710:

CONDI GUARDIAN 4TW!!!! ZOMG, WE CAN DO IT>..

Just not sure how…..

Just Imagine something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQRArf8dlYgKCnESIEfIFSuArHEECVQVPin6xDxFA-jkDB4LDimCMQEBhO/RQMFSZtEMaFRgVRBpYCVVLRKbYqYC1GzER1W0YSBAxCA-w

There may be more optimal build obviously (I just made that above in a couple of minutes to prove my point).

With what I said above, with an improved torch you’d have condi removal, if Zealot’s Flame gave swiftness or something (or flashing blade no longer requiring a target or whatever…) you’d have mobility, reducing Signet cast times to make them more reliable… If Guardians had an additional damaging condition, let’s say: Kindled Zeal trait, in adition to it’s current effect, you now apply 3 stacks of Torment for 5 seconds whenever you blind your opponent (yeah it would make Renewed Justice OP but it’s just an example); you could make some competitive condi Guards for sure.

My point is, Condition Guardians are not that far off imo. Let’s hope for some clever balance choises on future patches.