Guild Wars 2

I have retaliation. Someone bleeds me. Do they get a tick of retaliation per tick of bleed?

I was sure the answer was “yes” as I’m sure I’ve put conditions on people and then ended up dying apparently just from retaliation, but some on the forums are saying otherwise. The wiki didn’t specify.

So which is it?

No.

15characters

If it is no, then I feel that is a huge oversight. Retal should be the direct counter to conditions and smaller damage based hits, while larger hits should be counter by blocks and dodges.

This could be intentional since they have made changes to reduce the duration of retal as much as possible since at the start we could keep it up pretty much 100% of the time (still has huge up time).

I’m going to have to log into my wife’s account and test out retal on myself later.

Just went into mists and had an NPC stack bleeds on me. No retal damage via bleed ticks =( I really disagree with this.

CMF.5461:

If it is no, then I feel that is a huge oversight. Retal should be the direct counter to conditions and smaller damage based hits, while larger hits should be counter by blocks and dodges.

This could be intentional since they have made changes to reduce the duration of retal as much as possible since at the start we could keep it up pretty much 100% of the time (still has huge up time).

I’m going to have to log into my wife’s account and test out retal on myself later.

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Just went into mists and had an NPC stack bleeds on me. No retal damage via bleed ticks =( I really disagree with this.

Does it have a minimum required hit? Try burning or fear?
I remembered taking extra retal damage on my Ranger but I don’t know if it was just lagging a bit behind or actual condition retal.

just tried burning, no damage. Multiple hit attacks like 100 blades will do retaliation damage, but conditions will not return damage. The attack which does the initial application will return damage and that is it.

Again, I think this is an oversight and should be adjusted somehow. But how do we get dev attention and agreement on this. =(

CMF.5461:

how do we get dev attention and agreement on this. =(

Devs don’t seem too concerned with guardians, in fact they are still pushing ahead with this godawful “boon hate” bullkitten!

CMF.5461:

just tried burning, no damage. Multiple hit attacks like 100 blades will do retaliation damage, but conditions will not return damage. The attack which does the initial application will return damage and that is it.

Again, I think this is an oversight and should be adjusted somehow. But how do we get dev attention and agreement on this. =(

Ok, wait, do you realize how OP that would be? There would literally be no counter to retaliation in the game at all. Shortbow rangers would literally die within seconds, any condition spec that relies on bleed would do the same. If retaliation could only be kept up for like 5 seconds max then ok sounds fine, but considering we can keep it up 100% of the time, that would be even more OP than it already is.

Bakitten291:

CMF.5461:

just tried burning, no damage. Multiple hit attacks like 100 blades will do retaliation damage, but conditions will not return damage. The attack which does the initial application will return damage and that is it.

Again, I think this is an oversight and should be adjusted somehow. But how do we get dev attention and agreement on this. =(

Ok, wait, do you realize how OP that would be? There would literally be no counter to retaliation in the game at all. Shortbow rangers would literally die within seconds, any condition spec that relies on bleed would do the same. If retaliation could only be kept up for like 5 seconds max then ok sounds fine, but considering we can keep it up 100% of the time, that would be even more OP than it already is.

I have to agree. Retaliation is a mechanic that doesn’t demand any real skill from the player using it, and a lot of people disagree with its implementation for that reason alone, but making it work against all forms of damage would put it completely over the top. Consider that Retaliation usually ticks for 300+ damage in a build with decent power, while your average Bleed stack does less than half of that on a fully specced condition build. If a condition class is stacking bleeds on you, why should you be able to return over twice their damage for a period of time just by pressing a single button? You don’t have to do anything else after that – you could literally just stand there while an opponent puts a 10 stack of bleed on you, let Retal tick for 3k damage per second on them, and just watch them kill themselves for you. There’d be no point to playing a condition build in a PvP or WvW setting with that kind of counter so readily available. With the condition cap in PvE, it’s likely that condition damage would become completely obsolete for any form of higher level play.

Retaliation is already over the top, if anything nerf it to the ground or revamp it so it at least takes some sort of skill to apply. We don’t need devs attention regarding this, its not an issue but retal, as a silly and totally idiotic (in a game revolving around avoiding damage) mechanic, should be a concern for the devs.

If retaliation would procc of every condition it would mean about 7k damage per second versus 20 stacks of bleeds and with no means to avoid it.

The counter for condition damage is:
1. Dodge the application
2. Remove it with your condition remover.

There are very few reasons to play a conditionbuild versus a guardian as it is.

I agree that in it’s current state, retaliation would be far too powerful versus the shear amount of conditions applied today.

In counter argument, I would contest that retaliation is about as skilless and thoughtless as the mass amount of easily applied conditions available. There is little to no thought in applying conditions, much as there is little to no thought in applying retaliation.

“IF” retal were to be condition aware, then it would cause the players with conditions to have to stop and watch boons before applying conditions.

For the above to be a practical situation, retaliation would need a large gap between available boons (i.e. skill based application and not blanket mindless buffing).

Think of it in a different scenario. You are low in life, and need to heal. A quick glance at the conditions applied on you show that poison has been applied to you. With a condition removal available you clear out poison and then cast heal.

A non-skilled/aware player will waste the heal regardless and get little to no return on the ability. A skilled player would be aware of the conditions on them and know what they would do as they make real time decisions.

This is also similar to when I am planning a knock down/knock back on a target. I look for stability on the enemy and I wait for that to drop.

So coming back to retaliation being too strong. I disagree to some extent that it is too strong, but I believe that it is too readily available. I still contest that conditions should be affected by retaliation, and by that it would cause damage dealers to have to play as smart as defensive players. Thus enhancing the quality of the game and pushing it forward to something less mindless.

So in direct response:
If retal returned damage from conditions, then simply don’t stack conditions when retal is up or available.
As far as dodging the application or removing the condition, there is an arms race with a flurry of various attacks and reapplications of conditions, that it becomes a futile effort to dodge/remove conditions, as well as CCs or other attacks.

Nerf the uptime of retal, buff the damage return versus conditions.

sorry but this suggestion is really mind blowing stupid.

so the sceanrio is as follows:

ele uses churning earth, guardian and his 4 buddys run into it, guardian pops stand your ground… ele is dead because he gets retaliation from 5 sources with retaliation. thats really a great idea.

checking for 20 squarepixel on my screen is NOT enhancing the quality of the game.

Ok, how about this one. Guardian’s are supposed to be defensive fighters. Guardians do not have any real condition damage save for burning damge, which most feel is laughable and just bonus to our auto attack.

Retaliation gives Guardians a form of condition damage via defensive posturing.

As I stated this is a two pronged solution:

• Reduce the damage/uptime of retaliation
• Play smarter

If retaliation were to reflect 1/2 of the damage taken back to the target would this be more acceptable?

Course now when someone does a big huge crit hit, retal can hit for an amount equivalent to that damage. Versus the fixed damage it does now, it can never hit for the same as a crit hit, but it returns really good damage versus smaller hits (i.e. conditions?)

What I am getting from everyone so far is that they don’t want to have to think about when they apply conditions, they just want to use everything on cooldown and dps dmg fast hard now.

I thought GW2 was supposed to inspire players to be more skillful, not just mash buttons. What happened?

@CMF

Retaliation already destroy rapid fire class like short bow ranger, grenade/FT engineer ect..

And you also want to make it counter Conditions class? what?

We already have to think before applying conditions. Did you ever played a necromancer/engineer? Applying condition isn’t as easy a pushing a freaking retaliation button.

You have to take into account condition removal, hide your condition, aim for them, epidemic them.

You only push your retaliation ability at the start of the fight and it’s done.

Right now, with ether Necromancer or Engineer, I can perma stack retaliation. Yeah what will condition class do about it now?

Retaliation is a talentless ability, and it shouldn’t be stronger then it is right now. I already lose half my HP if I flame jet a group with a guardian.

No offence, but this got to be one of the worse suggestion I ever read.

Pretty sure CMF just trolling or being sarcastic, he’s trying to justify a buff to a one-button boon by asking other to play smarter, that just can’t be serious.

Besides, its easy enough for guardian to deal with condition, I personally have 2 passive, 3 active, and 2 light whirl combo, possibly a bit overkill but I enjoy being condition-free most the time. (as opposite to having condition(s) just to deal damage to others)

Unfortunately you all don’t see the guardian profession in the same vision as I would like to see it. A zen like, defensive aikido style flow of energy redirection in which you use your opponents strengths against themselves.

I can see the majority does not like retaliation, but I find it laughable that you retort to the “you must be trolling” mindlessness. Or that you believe that classes have been “destroyed”.

Also, cleansing bolts don’t cleanse yourself.

You guys look at one side of the problem and not both. I recommended retal to reduce in damage/duration to rid of us the mindlessness and make it more of an activated calculated ability.

In it’s current state retal would be too strong with conditions applying damage back. Devs have stated they wanted to change retal to be more active and less passive. I think having it as a short term condition reflection could be its niche, if there would be large windows of opportunity to not have retal be mindless and auto kill people.

I am trying to look at both sides, and some only look at one side.
I voiced my unpopular opinion already so I guess I am done as this isn’t going anywhere and you can’t make people think the same as you.

CMF.5461:

Unfortunately you all don’t see the guardian profession in the same vision as I would like to see it. A zen like, defensive aikido style flow of energy redirection in which you use your opponents strengths against themselves.

I can see the majority does not like retaliation, but I find it laughable that you retort to the “you must be trolling” mindlessness. Or that you believe that classes have been “destroyed”.

Also, cleansing bolts don’t cleanse yourself.

You guys look at one side of the problem and not both. I recommended retal to reduce in damage/duration to rid of us the mindlessness and make it more of an activated calculated ability.

In it’s current state retal would be too strong with conditions applying damage back. Devs have stated they wanted to change retal to be more active and less passive. I think having it as a short term condition reflection could be its niche, if there would be large windows of opportunity to not have retal be mindless and auto kill people.

I am trying to look at both sides, and some only look at one side.
I voiced my unpopular opinion already so I guess I am done as this isn’t going anywhere and you can’t make people think the same as you.

Even if Retaliation were capped at a 3 second maximum duration to make it take more skill to use, I would strongly disagree with making it proc on condition ticks. Let’s take my previous example again, the 10 stack of Bleeding, and let’s say that the bleeding is ticking for 150 per stack (very generous) while your Retaliation ticks for 300 on each bleed (very conservative). Here’s why Retaliation is still going to be absurdly overpowered:

Condition builds have to work to build up stacks, and they want to maintain their stacks on you at all times. The fastest condition burst is always going to be slower (even if only by a few seconds) and allow for more reaction time than the fastest direct damage bursts, just because of how the game’s mechanics work (you need time to stack the conditions in rapid succession and then more time to let them tick, while direct damage can occur at a much higher rate and often only requires a CC for setup). Even if you slash Retaliation’s duration, it’ll be very possible to react within the condition burst’s window and return absurd amounts of damage to the opponent.

Returning to the 10 stack of Bleed, let’s say my opponent is maintaining that on me. At 150 damage per stack, I’m taking 1500 damage per second. Now, I press my single-button Retaliation skill, and in the 3 seconds it lasts, I return 9k damage to him. It’s not some obscene feat of reflex to do this to a condition user, because they’re trying to keep their stacks up continually. If you’ve got 10 stacks of bleed on you and a reasonable amount of remaining HP, you’ve got a lot of time to press that single button, and you get to spike your opponent for 2-3 times the damage they had to work to stack on you. Since most condition builds try to maintain stacks, it’s unlikely that significant numbers of stacks will expire before Retaliation does, so they will take the full damage from it, and they can’t dodge or block that damage. That means that by trying to work up a respectable bleed stack on you, they were really just sealing their own fate. Then if you press another single button of your choice, you can cleanse the condition stacks they were working hard to maintain, so in our example, you basically traded 4.5k HP and a couple cooldowns for a 9k, unavoidable spike on your opponent and a complete neutralization of their damage source. They get to start building their damage up from scratch, and if you happen to have another Retaliation cooldown, they’re S.O.L. None of this takes any appreciable amount of skill from the player using Retaliation.

I’d like to see Retaliation become a more skill-based boon, but it will never be remotely balanced if it affects condition damage. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit with your vision of the Guardian, but your suggestions just don’t fix the core issues here, and condition builds don’t really need a second counter in addition to all the cleansing already in the game.

It should not work off of conditions.

Way to OP.

It would be worse than confusion in large groups because you would be doubling down on many classes: Most conditions applied have a dmg aspect to them as well, so 1 bleed from a ranger would get hit for 315 (RETAL) from the damage on application and then 5 ticks for each tick of bleed applied?

And that’s just for 1 ability (say Axe #2).

I think the biggest issue other classes have with retaliation is that there is no way to tell who has it on, when it comes to group play.

A warrior can run into a group and his or her target might not have retaliation, but the other 4 around that person might…. how could you ever know?

I’ts not like a Poison, where the character has a green hue around them… maybe that’s the solution, create a ‘glimmering / shimmering silver’ lining around the players who have retaliation?

Then it wouldn’t be so bad. We could then use the ~same exact argument~ that mesmers do… just don’t attack me dumby.

Amins.3710:

I think the biggest issue other classes have with retaliation is that there is no way to tell who has it on, when it comes to group play.

There is a visible cue for retaliation when it’s active. It may be subtle, but it’s there. On the shield arm you will see a ghostly shield similar in shape to the seraph shield. That is your visible cue, that and….well, targeting them.

And I would vote for retaliation to work on condition ticks. As it stands right now, conditions are kinda fire and forget, free damage. At least it would give these dot classes something to think about when dropping AOE damaging conditions on everyone without fear of reprisal. And it adds a layer of complexity for the person conditioned, “Do you pop your Condition Cure CD or let retaliation reward you for holding off?”

You mean that see through spikey thing that’s the size of a golf ball?

Try seeing that in a zerg. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a clearly identifiable aspect to a character…. now if they made that envelope the whole character model, that would be something worth noting.

This topic is pointless to debate. It would take an entire reworking of retalation to make it viable.

A player who builds around condition damage should not have their entire build negated and turned into a negative because of a passive boon that can be applied indefinitely.

Retaliation doesn’t need to counter conditions too. That is just silly.

25 stacks of bleed ~ 12,500 dps to the source of bleed? No. Just no. Having someone hit you with a 10 hit skill while under retaliation already punishes foes enough. Smoking them on DoTs would be overkill, and basically make Guardians invincible.

Amins.3710:

You mean that see through spikey thing that’s the size of a golf ball?

Try seeing that in a zerg. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a clearly identifiable aspect to a character…. now if they made that envelope the whole character model, that would be something worth noting.

Whatdaya want a big neon sign hovering over him the size of Jormag’s claw that says, “Don’t hit me!!!! I’ll hit you back!!!!” Please, bleeds, protection, might, stability, vigor, etc. don’t have a physical cue either, so what’s your beef again? You can ID them all by targeting someone anyway, so I don’t see the problem. If you’re looking for cues, by sheer virtue of culling and the nature of the rendering system (i.e. priority meshes/textures first, particles and visual effects last) completely negate relying on them in a zerg.

budxors.1975:

This topic is pointless to debate. It would take an entire reworking of retalation to make it viable.

A player who builds around condition damage should not have their entire build negated and turned into a negative because of a passive boon that can be applied indefinitely.

I think you missed the message where the devs are adding in mechanics like “boon hate” to help counter the abundant reliance on conditions. There’s no reason to think they won’t rework retaliation either. This boon has had an abundant history of being tuned/tweaked/nerfed/buffed, if conditions become the defacto “fire and forget” source of damage that they’re starting to come into in the meta, then they will adjust it.

Counters like retaliation don’t negate condition builds either, instead it becomes a risk/reward scenario especially, when you consider more than a few of the condition reliant classes can “eat” boons like retaliation.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Retaliation doesn’t need to counter conditions too. That is just silly.

25 stacks of bleed ~ 12,500 dps to the source of bleed? No. Just no. Having someone hit you with a 10 hit skill while under retaliation already punishes foes enough. Smoking them on DoTs would be overkill, and basically make Guardians invincible.

Think a little bit outside of the box here. If it’s changed to include conditions, retaliation would certainly be changed as well, maybe changed to return 5-10% of the damage taken? Come on, that’s first gen MMO balancing mistakes, we’re a bit beyond that now.

Wreknar.5076:

Whatdaya want a big neon sign hovering over him the size of Jormag’s claw that says, “Don’t hit me!!!! I’ll hit you back!!!!” Please, bleeds, protection, might, stability, vigor, etc. don’t have a physical cue either, so what’s your beef again? You can ID them all by targeting someone anyway, so I don’t see the problem. If you’re looking for cues, by sheer virtue of culling and the nature of the rendering system (i.e. priority meshes/textures first, particles and visual effects last) completely negate relying on them in a zerg.

Im actually pretty sure protection has a visual cue. Vigor doesn’t actually need one, as it doesn’t serve as a passive damage reduction or return or anything like that, stability would be nice, but most CC moves are meant for single target CC anyways. Don’t get why bleeds would need one in the first place… Also the point was that if you are targeting someone in a group you have no way to tell if the other people in the group are going to smoke you if you AoE them if the person you are targeting doesn’t have retaliation on.

Wreknar.5076:

Counters like retaliation don’t negate condition builds either, instead it becomes a risk/reward scenario especially, when you consider more than a few of the condition reliant classes can “eat” boons like retaliation.

2 classes can “eat” boons, However with as many sources of retaliation that we have even if it is removed, we can almost instantly put it back up. and unless the uptime of retaliation is changed, there is no risk/reward because at current there is no downtime for it. Also, Conditions last for a timer, and you cant just remove them yourself, so if you say put 10 stacks of bleed on someone that didnt have retal at the time, they could then apply it directly after and you have no choice than to take the damage, where as for direct damage abilities you can at least cancel out of them. Great example of this was the Ele with churning earth, you cast it off in a group of enemies, Guardian uses an AoE retaliation source, boom your instantly dead. Imagine taking 40 stacks worth of bleed ticks back as retaliation damage, regardless if it was only a % of the damage done.

If retaliation procs on conditions, then crits should proc on conditions too.
/sarcasm

`I wish to point retal hits Nade engie really hard.

Imagine 3 dudes with retaliation up each hitting for 300

Now 3 nades, each nade hits 3 targets so 3*3 = 9

Now 9*300 dmg from retaliation = 2700 dmg per throwing grenades.

Retal is fine if not OP in some cases.

Or flamethrower. 10 hits in 2,25

so in 2,25s i get hit for 10*3 people with retal = 30 retal procs

30*300 = 9000 damage in 2,25s time

Personally I would remove Retaliation from the game completely or change it to something else.

It’s passive play that yields great benefits for no effort at all. It effectively shuts down some builds that otherwise might have been used in sPvP.

With current Retal don’t hope for FT engie for example.

Sorry for the necro, been away on holiday and didn’t get a chance to check in on this thread.

Bakitten291:

Im actually pretty sure protection has a visual cue. Vigor doesn’t actually need one, as it doesn’t serve as a passive damage reduction or return or anything like that, stability would be nice, but most CC moves are meant for single target CC anyways. Don’t get why bleeds would need one in the first place… Also the point was that if you are targeting someone in a group you have no way to tell if the other people in the group are going to smoke you if you AoE them if the person you are targeting doesn’t have retaliation on.

Again, risk and reward, it’s really no different that direct damage AOE skills that pulse (i.e. symbols, grenade spam, meteor shower, whirling axe, the list goes on). Direct damage gets punished constantly by retaliation, why do condition effects get a free pass?

Bakitten291:

2 classes can “eat” boons,

Sorry not really true, four of the classes have traits that allow them to strip boons off. While most of them could stand to be buffed a little bit, they do exist and are usable. Unique examples include Searing Flames, Flanking Strike, etc. Personally it’s my opinion that they should do away with this whole “boon hate” concept and give the classes in question low CD abilities that destroy a boon. Boon stacking is problem to discuss for another thread though.

Bakitten291:

However with as many sources of retaliation that we have even if it is removed, we can almost instantly put it back up. and unless the uptime of retaliation is changed, there is no risk/reward because at current there is no downtime for it. Also, Conditions last for a timer, and you cant just remove them yourself, so if you say put 10 stacks of bleed on someone that didnt have retal at the time, they could then apply it directly after and you have no choice than to take the damage, where as for direct damage abilities you can at least cancel out of them. Great example of this was the Ele with churning earth, you cast it off in a group of enemies, Guardian uses an AoE retaliation source, boom your instantly dead. Imagine taking 40 stacks worth of bleed ticks back as retaliation damage, regardless if it was only a % of the damage done.

You’re making the logical fallacy that retaliation would not have it’s behavior tuned should a change like this be done. No one could realistically argue that retaliation wouldn’t be overpowered in it’s current form if the only change to it were that it also affected ticks of conditions.

That’s not the case here, I would suggest something similar to shorter term durations and percentage based returned damage. 5-10% damage returned and a maximum of 25-50% uptime seems reasonable wouldn’t it? And please don’t try to sell the line of “what about AOE conditions?”, wide spread retaliation already destroys AOE direct damage dealers as mentioned above. Simply a case of working as intended. Besides, doesn’t ANet want to nerf the overall usage of AOE without making classes needlessly weak?

Guardians already are the hard counter to conditions. They have the best sources of condition removal in the game, which also happen to benefit allies as well. Making retaliation a condition counter is not only redundant, but also totally excessive.

If retaliation should be changed, then making it a condition counter is in no way the correct approach.

CMF.5461:

If it is no, then I feel that is a huge oversight. Retal should be the direct counter to conditions and smaller damage based hits, while larger hits should be counter by blocks and dodges.

You know, it’s usually a good idea to think about things before you say them…

No, retaliation doesn’t work against conditions, if it did a single use of relation would destroy any serious condition build with 10 to 20-ish stacks of bleed (and other conditions) continuously ticking. Any condition build would be completely suicidal.

Retaliation is a counter to “white” damage. More effective when used by high toughness characters (since the damage “reflected” is flat and not a percentage of what you receive) and when used against low damage attacks with many quick hits.

Really… Think kitten through before you post it…

@Topic: Retaliation is fine. Stop trying to “fix” what isn’t broken.

Wreknar.5076:

Amins.3710:

You mean that see through spikey thing that’s the size of a golf ball?

Try seeing that in a zerg. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a clearly identifiable aspect to a character…. now if they made that envelope the whole character model, that would be something worth noting.

Whatdaya want a big neon sign hovering over him the size of Jormag’s claw that says, “Don’t hit me!!!! I’ll hit you back!!!!” Please, bleeds, protection, might, stability, vigor, etc. don’t have a physical cue either, so what’s your beef again? You can ID them all by targeting someone anyway, so I don’t see the problem. If you’re looking for cues, by sheer virtue of culling and the nature of the rendering system (i.e. priority meshes/textures first, particles and visual effects last) completely negate relying on them in a zerg. .

You’re kidding right?

So we’re supposed to target ~every~ player that’s grouped together ~before~ attacking 1 person?

Do you see how stupid that sounds? You can’t. It’s not possible to target everyone that’s in a clump, before you attack… or get attacked for that matter.

10vs10, 30vs30… unless it’s a 3v5 or something (which this isn’t really what’s being debated), you simply do not have the ability to target every person around your target, just to see if they have 1 icon on them.