Guild Wars 2

Seriously this was one of the best things about Guardian. Playstyle is dynamic and it flows. Leave it alone. We need it to survive in most cases, especially for solo roaming, which is hard to do in most cases. It’s not even perma vigour in most cases because you need high boon duration and crit chance for it.

Everyone else either is getting or got their vigor nerfed. So no

Leave them alone too then, I don’t care, as long as we get to keep ours. Else I’ll probably have to swap to warrior or play some other game.

Warrior doesn’t have even close to perma vigor

Do they need it?

As I understand, if you use save yourselves, you still effectively have Perma vigor.

Immolator.5640:

Do they need it?

Your complaining about not getting perma vigor anymore, then threatening to reroll to the class with the lowest vigor uptime. No they dont need it, but your logic is flawed

Guardians have decreased hp because their utilities and traits make them more survivable. Vigor was one of those things given to us to bring the survivability back up..

You already have perma protection dog. Nothing to complain about imo.

guys, there is still hope! Remember how arenanet said they gonna nerf the healing signet of war? Actually they nerfed it only by 8%, so from like 412 to 380 and every war still uses it. Maybe we can expect something similar with the guard trait

btw. where did you get that info?

Immolator.5640:

Playstyle is dynamic and it flows. Leave it alone.

I main a guardian and I am sorry to say that spamming dodge is not dynamic gameplay. I support the nerf, it promotes skillful gameplay rather than blind dodging.

Sachit.9753:

Immolator.5640:

Playstyle is dynamic and it flows. Leave it alone.

I main a guardian and I am sorry to say that spamming dodge is not dynamic gameplay. I support the nerf, it promotes skillful gameplay rather than blind dodging.

Same. I used to have Vigorous Precision in my build, but outside of using it in conjunction with Selfless Daring, I don’t see a point in needing all that Endurance. Once you’ve learned a boss’ mechanics it becomes easier to know when to avoid damage just by strafing/walking away from their attacks. Dodging becomes unnecessary at that point.
It also makes Elusive Power incredibly hard to keep up in a DPS build since you would get Vigor all the time from critical hitting things so frequently.

You don’t need permavigor in PvE, that’s for sure. For PvP, however, while I agree with too many evades not being specially healthy for the game, I’m quite afraid of how impactful the change will be.

Maybe I’m bad for it, but with the new sigil thing + this nerf, It’s solidified it for me. I was debating it, but for sure I’m going energy sigils =). So many flips will be done (asura ftw).

It’s pretty handy for soloing, I will miss it. But it’s not needed for team play.

I don’t know, but perma-vigor for a minor trait? Seriously?
everyone knows it was broken.
And we will still have close to 100% uptime combined with save yourselves and boon duration…

Sachit.9753:

Immolator.5640:

Playstyle is dynamic and it flows. Leave it alone.

I main a guardian and I am sorry to say that spamming dodge is not dynamic gameplay. I support the nerf, it promotes skillful gameplay rather than blind dodging.

It’s not spamming dodge only, I play GS and Sword combo for movement when solo roaming, and I enjoy the way the combat does flow, 2v1 situations and winning isn’t down to blind dodging. You wouldn’t know without doing roaming yourself; it’s incredibly necessary. In general it’s nowhere near enough to spam, nor without boon duration was if even permanent.

Also seeing as they’re nerfing the main rune source of boon duration, the only alternative would probs be to use food for it; they don’t want us to mix and match so 15% is max from Runes as far as I’m aware. Losing the food slot hurts just as much however. For the most part I wasn’t talking about PvE either, I wouldn’t know where to go in that place. Thirdly I don’t care if Warrior has low vigour uptime, it doesn’t need it for survivability, and I probs won’t be doing much more solo roaming in general, zerging is easier.

The things keeping Guard viable for the low base health pool are protection, regen and passive healing, high dodge uptime, some anti-burst capability and heavy armour, up to a point. I don’t have perma-protection to whoever was saying that I do, nor can I see much of a possibility of it without grabbing a hammer, which would kill my mobility, something I don’t incredibly want to do to maintain a dynamic and evasive playstyle.

Carpboy.7145:

Warrior doesn’t have even close to perma vigor

Warhorn + The 20% faster recharge on warhorn skills + gaining vigor on using stances. They have quite a lot of vigor to be taken advantage of

xCrusadentx.2784:

Carpboy.7145:

Warrior doesn’t have even close to perma vigor

Warhorn + The 20% faster recharge on warhorn skills + gaining vigor on using stances. They have quite a lot of vigor to be taken advantage of

Ok. But thats 30 trait points while using a meh weapon. Guardians have that as a 5 point trait you just get automatically for just 5 points, with no other requirements. Thats why its getting nerfed

fadeaway.2807:

Guardians have decreased hp because their utilities and traits make them more survivable. Vigor was one of those things given to us to bring the survivability back up..

This! Guardians have silly low base HP because they have so many survival mechanics. If those are taken away one by one but the HP remains unadjusted they’ll end up meat for other classes to grind.

People were sad about engg losing their perma vigor too (although they technically still have it with infused precision), but they’ve been managing just fine. It’ll just mean you’re a little less free to dodge whenever the hell you feel like it. You’ll still be able to get pretty high vigor uptime, especially with boon duration increases.

And hey, with the new sigil changes, you can put a sigil of energy on your greatsword that you couldn’t before (assuming you didn’t have one on there already). That should more than compensate for a loss of vigor uptime.

Yamsandjams.3267:

People were sad about engg losing their perma vigor too (although they technically still have it with infused precision), but they’ve been managing just fine. It’ll just mean you’re a little less free to dodge whenever the hell you feel like it. You’ll still be able to get pretty high vigor uptime, especially with boon duration increases.

And hey, with the new sigil changes, you can put a sigil of energy on your greatsword that you couldn’t before (assuming you didn’t have one on there already). That should more than compensate for a loss of vigor uptime.

As well as take up a slot that could otherwise have been used to increase damage to make up for the loss we’re taking with the fero change. So where the warriors and such are tossing a damage/bloodlust/whatever in there to increase their damage, we’re stuck using energy just to get by? While it’s what I plan to do, it’s just another opportunity cost where we have to take a loss.

Yamsandjams.3267:

People were sad about engg losing their perma vigor too (although they technically still have it with infused precision), but they’ve been managing just fine. It’ll just mean you’re a little less free to dodge whenever the hell you feel like it. You’ll still be able to get pretty high vigor uptime, especially with boon duration increases.

And hey, with the new sigil changes, you can put a sigil of energy on your greatsword that you couldn’t before (assuming you didn’t have one on there already). That should more than compensate for a loss of vigor uptime.

ANet said that many sigils and runes have been rebalanced to the new system. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sigil of Energy happens to be nerfed; in fact, I’m actually expecting it.

The case of Guardians and Mesmers is also bit different from the Engineer one.
Both have strong, next to build defining, traits that are triggered on dodge. Deploying a bomb on dodge is nice, but not as important as clone generation is for a shatter mesmer or healing for a bunker guardian.
Shatter mesmer (which arguably offers the most interesting mesmer gameplay) is going to get hit hard, massively if Energy also gets a nerf. Not so afraid on bunker guardian since it can get vigor from PoV too (an Energy nerf would hurt though), even if that means being even more pidgeonholed and absolutely depends on Runes of Soldier not receiving serious changes (which I don’t expect, but could happen).
My concerns on Guardian are probably more about offensive specs, which get hit harder than bunkers and keep receiving crappy burn related updates (which are likely to be useless and would lead to nothing but passive/unskilled gameplay if useful).

Jerus.4350:

Yamsandjams.3267:

People were sad about engg losing their perma vigor too (although they technically still have it with infused precision), but they’ve been managing just fine. It’ll just mean you’re a little less free to dodge whenever the hell you feel like it. You’ll still be able to get pretty high vigor uptime, especially with boon duration increases.

And hey, with the new sigil changes, you can put a sigil of energy on your greatsword that you couldn’t before (assuming you didn’t have one on there already). That should more than compensate for a loss of vigor uptime.

As well as take up a slot that could otherwise have been used to increase damage to make up for the loss we’re taking with the fero change. So where the warriors and such are tossing a damage/bloodlust/whatever in there to increase their damage, we’re stuck using energy just to get by? While it’s what I plan to do, it’s just another opportunity cost where we have to take a loss.

Everyone else is also being affected by the ferocity change too though. So less incoming damage means the need to dodge less, therefore less of a need for vigor.

Vargamonth.2047:

The case of Guardians and Mesmers is also bit different from the Engineer one.
Both have strong, next to build defining, traits that are triggered on dodge. Deploying a bomb on dodge is nice, but not as important as clone generation is for a shatter mesmer or healing for a bunker guardian.

An engineer never went with perma vigor for more dodge bombs. In fact, a lot of people don’t actually like those because it can screw up stealth.

The powerful thing about a dodge is the dodge. It effectively makes you immune to almost anything in the game. The reason they removed it on the engineer wasn’t because there was too many on-dodge bombs going around, it was because they didn’t want them to be able to have the ability to dodge so liberally. It’s the same reason they’re applying it to mesmers and guardians as well.

It’s also partly because those are 5 point traits that end up being extremely powerful. The way they trait system works, the overall stronger or build-defining traits tend to be pushed into the higher trait tiers, so it doesn’t make sense to have something so build-defining at just 5 points.

Furthermore, assuming that the intent in removing perma vigor is to actually nerf the on-dodge traits, I think this is a very nice way to nerf the potential power of deceptive evasion and selfless daring. The other way of nerfing the traits is to actually decrease their overall power of changing the effect they have (i.e. the original proposed deceptive evasion changes). Would you rather you heal half the amount on each dodge, or have half the base vigor uptime?

Sometimes I wonder why Selfless Daring actually exists when obviously there should have been a recharge trait for Virtue of Resolve in that place. Justice has one in Radiance and Courage in Valor so logically Honor should have one for Resolve.
It’s still a very good trait and it’s a bit sad to take a hit in our sustain department because of 50% weaker Vigorous Precision.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Jerus.4350:

Yamsandjams.3267:

People were sad about engg losing their perma vigor too (although they technically still have it with infused precision), but they’ve been managing just fine. It’ll just mean you’re a little less free to dodge whenever the hell you feel like it. You’ll still be able to get pretty high vigor uptime, especially with boon duration increases.

And hey, with the new sigil changes, you can put a sigil of energy on your greatsword that you couldn’t before (assuming you didn’t have one on there already). That should more than compensate for a loss of vigor uptime.

As well as take up a slot that could otherwise have been used to increase damage to make up for the loss we’re taking with the fero change. So where the warriors and such are tossing a damage/bloodlust/whatever in there to increase their damage, we’re stuck using energy just to get by? While it’s what I plan to do, it’s just another opportunity cost where we have to take a loss.

Everyone else is also being affected by the ferocity change too though. So less incoming damage means the need to dodge less, therefore less of a need for vigor.

Still a nerf, still something that’s going to hurt. My point was that guardians may go energy to help offset the change, but doing so will then cause even more loss of DPS than what it would have been had we had that sigil spot to go with bloodlust, or force or something.

Yes everyone is losing damage, but if we end up feeling we have to go energy sigil then we’re losing even more relatively.

Immolator.5640:

Sachit.9753:

Immolator.5640:

Playstyle is dynamic and it flows. Leave it alone.

I main a guardian and I am sorry to say that spamming dodge is not dynamic gameplay. I support the nerf, it promotes skillful gameplay rather than blind dodging.

You wouldn’t know without doing roaming yourself; it’s incredibly necessary.

My friend i do nothing but solo roam in wvw and that to on the same server as you. Ive played most roaming builds out there with different variations. True we are not in a great place but its not perma vigor that is absolutely necessary, its the energy sigils on both wep sets.
Agreed that the only way it would be a big nerf if ur using energy sigil on only one wep set or none at all

Yamsandjams.3267:

Furthermore, assuming that the intent in removing perma vigor is to actually nerf the on-dodge traits, I think this is a very nice way to nerf the potential power of deceptive evasion and selfless daring. The other way of nerfing the traits is to actually decrease their overall power of changing the effect they have (i.e. the original proposed deceptive evasion changes). Would you rather you heal half the amount on each dodge, or have half the base vigor uptime?

I think permavigor is nerfed in order to, as you say, hit the dodge itself, which is the most powerful part of dodgerolling. The impact on dodge traits is probably nothing but a collaretal damage.
Obviously I would rather heal the half amount than having a 50% vigor uptime, which would made me lose 1 out of 4 dodges (1 out of 6 with current energy sigils). I would just need to avoid what a single selfless daring proc (2 selfless daring procs with current energy sigils) heals in order to outperform it, which is rather easy as long as I’m not mindlessly spamming dodges (at least for sPvP, where the coefficient is already at 0.5).