Guild Wars 2

Ragnarox.9601:

Arnath.2319:

Ragnarox.9601:

They could give guardians new condi for us only….spirit fire. So they can nerf plain fire and buff spirit fire as is, because eles will be too OP with burning stacks. (cele’s are OP as hell now )

I would love to see this, one of the big problems with condi guards is our lack of conditions. Even in HoT with the burning changes and bleeds on traps condi guards are unlikely to be viable. We need a consistent condi that can be applied on multi targets consistently that isn’t tied to unreliable traps.

Maybe the first minor trait in DragonHunter that gives us the new Virtues can also give us a mechanic that applies “Spirit Fire” on weapon auto attack critical strikes or something like that.

We already have bluish fire when we activate our virtue. Btw eles getting trait “dodge to remove fire condition” so we are more kittened vs ele as now (even now we cant win vs ele)

if i give you the opportunity to proc 1k dps with 1 condition and be able to proc it with several skills and abilities what would you say?
what would you say if it will be 2k dps with only 1 conditions?

the main reason other class got more conditions is the fact that they cant stack all of them constantly beside bleed (which is the weakest condition dmg)

yes ele is gonna be hard counter but even with the new trait which remove burning and chill its on 10 sec icd thus you have interval to stack more dmg. also ele by now is hard counter to any condi build. but again in hybrid where you got direct dmg also you put 2 ways of pressure

as for now the burning of the guardian may seem to be better then ever with 5k dps with probably 3k dps in average for short time along side 1k-2k direct dmg may be the best dps ever and maybe new hybrid era for guards and other class too.

also side note with swap sigils you can proc poison and 3 bleeding for 10 sec so…

Saiyan.1704:

In other words, 5k burns and 2k bleeds may not mean anything in 3v3+ Skirmish scenarios.

in other words condi class still wont be any good in a big group fight because ppl got cleanses abilities… which tend to be used. but is small ones like 5v5 the cleanse abilities may be on cd unless you fight shout warrior , dd ele , bunker guard all together then you had to change class or build.

its all depends on the group comp and you ability to react to that. or choose you fight correctly like look for the mesmer, thief, ranger and not the warrior with the dd ele … etc

Sadrien.3470:

Relentless , you hate everything about the game and complain about everything universally so why should we be surprised your going to continue to add negative feedback and offer no real intellectual responses? If you would theory craft and stop complaining you could find something you enjoy.

And trap ranger works in anything below tourney lvl game play

Sorry for speaking honestly. I see no sense in saying X Y or Z is good if it is not.

On the other hand, I have seen how fanboi feedback, where people with concerns were shouted down by people like you, during various stages of beta and testing has lead to a lot of disasterous game decisions which has caused this game to fall from being a highly anticipated challenger to WOW to a ghost town.

You don’t go from having a full friends list with lots of people on line to one that is always empty without the developers royally screwing up.

I kinda hoped this expansion might make the game better but really it looks like more of the same silly fluff they’ve done for the last 3 or so years.

Relentliss.2170:

Sadrien.3470:

Relentless , you hate everything about the game and complain about everything universally so why should we be surprised your going to continue to add negative feedback and offer no real intellectual responses? If you would theory craft and stop complaining you could find something you enjoy.

And trap ranger works in anything below tourney lvl game play

Sorry for speaking honestly. I see no sense in saying X Y or Z is good if it is not.

On the other hand, I have seen how fanboi feedback, where people with concerns were shouted down by people like you, during various stages of beta and testing has lead to a lot of disasterous game decisions which has caused this game to fall from being a highly anticipated challenger to WOW to a ghost town.

You don’t go from having a full friends list with lots of people on line to one that is always empty without the developers royally screwing up.

I kinda hoped this expansion might make the game better but really it looks like more of the same silly fluff they’ve done for the last 3 or so years.

There’s nothing wrong about expressing your opinions on the Guardian’s specialization, in fact, I admire that. But lets not get those views confused with some of ArenaNet’s poor decisions in structured PvP. The PvP infrastructure in general has gotten worse but these specializations is not one of the reasons why.

In fact, the specializations, along with a new map, is the only thing ArenaNet has implemented in PvP (since launch) that didn’t have a negative effect. It seems like every addition has been countered productive, in one way or another.

These are the reasons why PvP Infrastructure is terrible. It doesn’t take a college degree to realize these faults
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Arenanet-s-Goals-for-PvP/first#post5097790

Relentliss.2170:

Sadrien.3470:

Relentless , you hate everything about the game and complain about everything universally so why should we be surprised your going to continue to add negative feedback and offer no real intellectual responses? If you would theory craft and stop complaining you could find something you enjoy.

And trap ranger works in anything below tourney lvl game play

Sorry for speaking honestly. I see no sense in saying X Y or Z is good if it is not.

On the other hand, I have seen how fanboi feedback, where people with concerns were shouted down by people like you, during various stages of beta and testing has lead to a lot of disasterous game decisions which has caused this game to fall from being a highly anticipated challenger to WOW to a ghost town.

You don’t go from having a full friends list with lots of people on line to one that is always empty without the developers royally screwing up.

I kinda hoped this expansion might make the game better but really it looks like more of the same silly fluff they’ve done for the last 3 or so years.

When I open my friendlist there is at most 1 person online. Everyone else quit. I can’t blame them, Anet burned us hard. The only reason why I’m still here is because of all the potential this game has.

Someone really smart designed guardian. You have this frontline fighter whose job it is to protect his teammates. He even deals good damage so you can play solo.
To make sure nothing gets out of control they gave him slow movement speed and low base hp. But right now guardian is far far away from that. Dragonhunter just gives us more of the same but this time with ranged. And kittenty traps that make no sense because guardians are too slow to set them up beforehand.

Edit: Keep it about the dragonhunter pvp stream guys. Off topic stuff gets us killed yo

Pitman.9210:

Relentliss.2170:

Sadrien.3470:

Relentless , you hate everything about the game and complain about everything universally so why should we be surprised your going to continue to add negative feedback and offer no real intellectual responses? If you would theory craft and stop complaining you could find something you enjoy.

And trap ranger works in anything below tourney lvl game play

Sorry for speaking honestly. I see no sense in saying X Y or Z is good if it is not.

On the other hand, I have seen how fanboi feedback, where people with concerns were shouted down by people like you, during various stages of beta and testing has lead to a lot of disasterous game decisions which has caused this game to fall from being a highly anticipated challenger to WOW to a ghost town.

You don’t go from having a full friends list with lots of people on line to one that is always empty without the developers royally screwing up.

I kinda hoped this expansion might make the game better but really it looks like more of the same silly fluff they’ve done for the last 3 or so years.

When I open my friendlist there is at most 1 person online. Everyone else quit. I can’t blame them, Anet burned us hard. The only reason why I’m still here is because of all the potential this game has.

Someone really smart designed guardian. You have this frontline fighter whose job it is to protect his teammates. He even deals good damage so you can play solo.
To make sure nothing gets out of control they gave him slow movement speed and low base hp. But right now guardian is far far away from that. Dragonhunter just gives us more of the same but this time with ranged. And kittenty traps that make no sense because guardians are too slow to set them up beforehand.

Edit: Keep it about the dragonhunter pvp stream guys. Off topic stuff gets us killed yo

Make new friends? people ceasing to play cause they are burned out is completely normal and happens in every single game. Heck I quit wow when all my friends abandoned me right after ICC wasted money on Cataclysm cause i couldnt get myself to play past the 1st month.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Pitman.9210:

Relentliss.2170:

Sadrien.3470:

Relentless , you hate everything about the game and complain about everything universally so why should we be surprised your going to continue to add negative feedback and offer no real intellectual responses? If you would theory craft and stop complaining you could find something you enjoy.

And trap ranger works in anything below tourney lvl game play

Sorry for speaking honestly. I see no sense in saying X Y or Z is good if it is not.

On the other hand, I have seen how fanboi feedback, where people with concerns were shouted down by people like you, during various stages of beta and testing has lead to a lot of disasterous game decisions which has caused this game to fall from being a highly anticipated challenger to WOW to a ghost town.

You don’t go from having a full friends list with lots of people on line to one that is always empty without the developers royally screwing up.

I kinda hoped this expansion might make the game better but really it looks like more of the same silly fluff they’ve done for the last 3 or so years.

When I open my friendlist there is at most 1 person online. Everyone else quit. I can’t blame them, Anet burned us hard. The only reason why I’m still here is because of all the potential this game has.

Someone really smart designed guardian. You have this frontline fighter whose job it is to protect his teammates. He even deals good damage so you can play solo.
To make sure nothing gets out of control they gave him slow movement speed and low base hp. But right now guardian is far far away from that. Dragonhunter just gives us more of the same but this time with ranged. And kittenty traps that make no sense because guardians are too slow to set them up beforehand.

Edit: Keep it about the dragonhunter pvp stream guys. Off topic stuff gets us killed yo

Make new friends? people ceasing to play cause they are burned out is completely normal and happens in every single game. Heck I quit wow when all my friends abandoned me right after ICC wasted money on Cataclysm cause i couldnt get myself to play past the 1st month.

That wasn’t the point. The point was that that anet kittened up which lead to people stop playing.

Why should they make condition damage on par with direct? This is the reason why PvP is where its at right now. If conditions were purely for supportive purposes (immob, vuln, poison’s healing reduction, etc) I guarantee you the celestial meta would’ve never left the launch pad. Personally, I think you guys should just stop trying to play passively and, instead, try to get the condi nerfs to come around. Condi isn’t unbeatable, but its hella annoying and it practically ruins fights when you have to time attacks and position yourself and the condi based user just auto attacks, with the occasional dodge/stealth/sustain skill while you’re whittled away.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Why should they make condition damage on par with direct? This is the reason why PvP is where its at right now. If conditions were purely for supportive purposes (immob, vuln, poison’s healing reduction, etc) I guarantee you the celestial meta would’ve never left the launch pad. Personally, I think you guys should just stop trying to play passively and, instead, try to get the condi nerfs to come around. Condi isn’t unbeatable, but its hella annoying and it practically ruins fights when you have to time attacks and position yourself and the condi based user just auto attacks, with the occasional dodge/stealth/sustain skill while you’re whittled away.

condition dmg has much more counter and cleanse versus direct dmg . thus to be able to play in versityle builds and not just 1-2 meta build you have to make more possibilities

the cele meta gained its power not from condi rather from being able to sustain longer while doing direct dmg which also got nice condi tuoch.
the new patch will give great boost to direct dmg thus the cele meta will continue to shine wether you par the condi dmg or not.
i think if you boost the condi dmg then more hybrid builds will be avialable with carrion and other amulets beside cele.

So I just typed up an awesome response, but computer bugged out on me so I’ll just drop a summary of what I said.

Healing power is useless. You know this. I know this. Everyone knows this.

Celestial provides a small boost to toughness and vitality. This is good and well, but these stats mean nothing vs a zerker.

What’s left? The damage stats. Direct damage (that usually comes in bursts) can be dodged, blinded, blocked, reflected, invulned through, the dpser can be knocked down, knocked back, stunned, dazed, rooted, LOSed, stealthed away from, and teleported away from. Of course, one would now say that all of these things apply to a condi user as well, since the conditions arent automatically applied (although it is in some cases, but that isn’t that big of an issue), but you have to understand that a lot of a condi users damage comes from straight auto attacks. A condi user generally sets themselves up to simply sustain through their utilities while their conditions deal the damage for them. I can guarantee you that if anet removed condition damage from the cele amulet, the cele meta would die then and there. You’re probably going to ask if the same applies to power, but it just doesn’t. Why it doesn’t is apparent in the vast difference in the amount of things that can counter direct damage bursts vs condition damage bursts.

Again, don’t misunderstand, I’m not calling them OP, but I am saying they promote easy and passive play which translates to being generally bad. No one enjoys watching two fools auto attack each other to death with the winner being determined by who had RNG on their side. It promotes bad play because of how this game works. Its primary focus is active defense and offense. Condition builds are the exact opposite of that and are crutches for lazy/bad players. Why they released celestial is beyond me (perhaps in an effort to make fights take longer making there to be more fight to watch cuz ESPAWRTS).

I get that GW2 is aiming to be more casual, but they really need to start cutting the fat from their game and force players to think instead of play styles like these being viable so that the game can finally grow.

Slayersixx just reiterated my feelings over general condition builds a 1000x over. Power is and will always be the way to go to show off any semblance of skill.

Having only one way to build is the complete opposite of skill for a game designer though.

Nike.2631:

Having only one way to build is the complete opposite of skill for a game designer though.

There’s plenty of ways they could diversify play styles without making them incredibly passive. Giving AI builds the ability to ACTUALLY micro manage their summons, different DPS mechanics like them building on their shatters (they did a nice job with chrono IMO), make support less boon sharing and more control based (kinda what they did with DH, although traps are a little iffy). There are PLENTY of ways. With HoT coming out, they’ve done a lot of good kitten with the elites and trait reworks, but they need to streamline their game so that they don’t run into issues later on.

SlayerSixx.5763:

A condi user generally sets themselves up to simply sustain through their utilities while their conditions deal the damage for them. I can guarantee you that if anet removed condition damage from the cele amulet, the cele meta would die then and there. You’re probably going to ask if the same applies to power, but it just doesn’t. Why it doesn’t is apparent in the vast difference in the amount of things that can counter direct damage bursts vs condition damage bursts.

its hard for me to agree with that.
i agree that everything you wrote on how to direct dmg fails also applies to condi dmg but also against condi dmg you got cleanse utilities and skills.
if your assumption is correct why you dont see ppl running with rabid, carrion amulet which give full condi, toughness or vitality and power. you just dont (maybe condi necro) so ppl dont need the condi as thye used zerker instead thus they look for power and not condi. thus cele meta isnt there for the condi rather for power and sustain ability

what i hope fore is when the new patch will be out with more direct dmg abilities and conditions dmg abilities ppl will have to try them out versus the current meta and if an overall win for the condi or power or hybrid will win then we will see shift from the current meta.

also in pvp dont forget if you 1v1 with condi dmg the enemy team has easier chance to make it 1v2 as your condi take times to kill enable the enemy to help when needed.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nike.2631:

Having only one way to build is the complete opposite of skill for a game designer though.

There’s plenty of ways they could diversify play styles without making them incredibly passive. Giving AI builds the ability to ACTUALLY micro manage their summons, different DPS mechanics like them building on their shatters (they did a nice job with chrono IMO), make support less boon sharing and more control based (kinda what they did with DH, although traps are a little iffy). There are PLENTY of ways. With HoT coming out, they’ve done a lot of good kitten with the elites and trait reworks, but they need to streamline their game so that they don’t run into issues later on.

I completely agree that there should be less passive play in the game but you would have to completely change the core mechanics of every class. It’s just not going to happen.

All Cele builds play 2x more passively than Condi classes. They have high amounts of regen, peels, damage negation utilities, CC, raw damage and conditions for irony. If any one of these aspects were removed they wouldn’t be meta. Yet pure condition specs are called “passive builds”.
That label isn’t exactly politically correct.

Guardians are Hybrids for a reason. We only have 1 condition that’s easily cleansed off. Half the time we have to engage and land 5 attacks to proc said condition. If we’re not dealing damage then we’re going to block and blind you till we eventually can. That right there is why Guardian, by nature, is a passive aggressive class.

Yet, HoT is making guardians more aggressive. At least in the condi/hybrid aspect of it. Compared to Zerk meta, condi guards will have the higher risks for sure. Not that we don’t already.
I don’t play condi because it’s easy. In fact, i’m often challenged more due to the amount of counters the build has in high level play.

messiah.1908:

SlayerSixx.5763:

A condi user generally sets themselves up to simply sustain through their utilities while their conditions deal the damage for them. I can guarantee you that if anet removed condition damage from the cele amulet, the cele meta would die then and there. You’re probably going to ask if the same applies to power, but it just doesn’t. Why it doesn’t is apparent in the vast difference in the amount of things that can counter direct damage bursts vs condition damage bursts.

its hard for me to agree with that.
i agree that everything you wrote on how to direct dmg fails also applies to condi dmg but also against condi dmg you got cleanse utilities and skills.
if your assumption is correct why you dont see ppl running with rabid, carrion amulet which give full condi, toughness or vitality and power. you just dont (maybe condi necro) so ppl dont need the condi as thye used zerker instead thus they look for power and not condi. thus cele meta isnt there for the condi rather for power and sustain ability

what i hope fore is when the new patch will be out with more direct dmg abilities and conditions dmg abilities ppl will have to try them out versus the current meta and if an overall win for the condi or power or hybrid will win then we will see shift from the current meta.

also in pvp dont forget if you 1v1 with condi dmg the enemy team has easier chance to make it 1v2 as your condi take times to kill enable the enemy to help when needed.

The reason why zerker is more prominent is because it has more reward for the better you get. People can say what they will about GW2 being an easy game, but you can still tell the difference between a good player and a bad player. Again, unless you’re S/D thief, most people can cleanse 3-5 condis per 30-40 seconds, so saying that the amount of cleanse vs the amount of conditions that can be applied is balanced, you’re crazy. To make matters worse, the only real way to counter condis is through cleanse and you’re stuck facing 99% of condi builds that can apply them on their auto (most of which happen to be ranged).

About cele, that’s the thing though. The defensive stats aren’t anything a zerker can’t shrug off. If carrion gave at least some precision and kept its original stats, kitten would be very different. Power is basically useless without at least some precision. The fact that a cele has as much ferocity as a zerker only sweetens the deal. When the cele build ISNT hitting you, their condis are chipping away at you. That’s why they stat doom/geo. They can circle around you and kite/liberally apply their heals while their condis throw in some offensive pressure WHILE THEY ARENT EVEN HITTING YOU.

And let’s be honest, 5-6 stacks of bleed and/or torment will down a person really quickly.

Saiyan.1704:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nike.2631:

Having only one way to build is the complete opposite of skill for a game designer though.

There’s plenty of ways they could diversify play styles without making them incredibly passive. Giving AI builds the ability to ACTUALLY micro manage their summons, different DPS mechanics like them building on their shatters (they did a nice job with chrono IMO), make support less boon sharing and more control based (kinda what they did with DH, although traps are a little iffy). There are PLENTY of ways. With HoT coming out, they’ve done a lot of good kitten with the elites and trait reworks, but they need to streamline their game so that they don’t run into issues later on.

I completely agree that there should be less passive play in the game but you would have to completely change the core mechanics of every class. It’s just not going to happen.

All Cele builds play 2x more passively than Condi classes. They have high amounts of regen, peels, damage negation utilities, CC, raw damage and conditions for irony. If any one of these aspects were removed they wouldn’t be meta. Yet pure condition specs are called “passive builds”.
That label isn’t exactly politically correct.

Guardians are Hybrids for a reason. We only have 1 condition that’s easily cleansed off. Half the time we have to engage and land 5 attacks to proc said condition. If we’re not dealing damage then we’re going to block and blind you till we eventually can. That right there is why Guardian, by nature, is a passive aggressive class.

Yet, HoT is making guardians more aggressive. At least in the condi/hybrid aspect of it. Compared to Zerk meta, condi guards will have the higher risks for sure. Not that we don’t already.
I don’t play condi because it’s easy. In fact, i’m often challenged more due to the amount of counters the build has in high level play.

Cele builds are the easiest to play at the highest levels, that’s kinda why they’re meta.

A very big overhaul IS coming, so hopefully we can push past this cheese.

Guardians are not hybrid because they’re bad at applying conditions. That’s dumb.

Guardians are the exact opposite of passive agressive. You can say we’re defensive, but passive agressive=\= defensive.

I would go as far as to liken condi builds to pre nerf turrets. They only work in lower levels of play and are merely an annoyance vs the better players, but its a play style that, quite frankly, shouldn’t exist. Like it needs to go ASAP.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Guardians are not hybrid because they’re bad at applying conditions. That’s dumb.

A large part of the community corrected me in that Condition Guardians were not “condi”. It mainly had to do with exactly what you just said. So if we’re not Condi then what are we? Hybrid.
Meh, Potato tomatoe. The term just stuck.

SlayerSixx.5763:

The reason why zerker is more prominent is because it has more reward for the better you get.

That’s highly opinionated and arguable. Hybrid Guardian builds have to focus target more carefully compared to Zerkers for obvious reasons. Not to mention we literally have to keep an eye on each classes utility cleanses like an Ele’s water splash in Water attunement, Engi’s Healing turret or even the Warriors adrenaline usage. If you’d like to continue to compare the two builds, I can go into further detail regarding the Hybrid Guard rotations and strategies to compare skill curves.
I rather we start another thread for that. :p

SlayerSixx.5763:

Again, unless you’re S/D thief, most people can cleanse 3-5 condis per 30-40 seconds, so saying that the amount of cleanse vs the amount of conditions that can be applied is balanced, you’re crazy. To make matters worse, the only real way to counter condis is through cleanse and you’re stuck facing 99% of condi builds that can apply them on their auto (most of which happen to be ranged).

It’s not balanced, that’s the point. There’s a reason why Condi (in general) isn’t meta. AoE condi dps gets washed away by high amounts of syncronized team cleanses. Even dueling, every class has a build that can completely counter a Hybrid Guardian. Quite consistently actually. In fact, 5 of these builds are meta. I’ve been dueling long enough to know that if a class doesn’t beat me on their meta build, they have no idea how to fight a hybrid guardian.

Funny thing is, I’ve seen you duel some people before. You downed anyone who wasn’t a cele Ele without so much as breaking a sweat. In fact, I remember you facing a theif and downing him after landing a total of THREE autos. Such skill.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Funny thing is, I’ve seen you duel some people before. You downed anyone who wasn’t a cele Ele without so much as breaking a sweat. In fact, I remember you facing a theif and downing him after landing a total of THREE autos. Such skill.

Then i’ll tell you the duels you don’t see that consistently wins.
Rangers
Spirits, power, condi is 50/50
Engi
Cele rifle nades, condi is 50/50
War
Cleansing Ire + Berserker/Enduring Pain build.
Mesmer
PU/Shatter/Mantra builds
Necro
MM build, 50/50 some power build
Cele
d/f or very good cele d/d. Any diamond skin eles.
Guard
21614 meta. Yea, the good guards can beat me consistently.
Thief
meh.. 50/50 Good thieves should always win cause, they’re thieves.

That was from the top of my head. Now add a shoutbow as a +1 and it’s gg for me… :/

How on earth do you lose to mesmers, rangers, and thieves? Also, hammer guards give you trouble? Their slow, extremely telegraphed attacks give you problems? What on earth are you running with?

SlayerSixx.5763:

How on earth do you lose to mesmers, rangers, and thieves? Also, hammer guards give you trouble? Their slow, extremely telegraphed attacks give you problems? What on earth are you running with?

21614 is refering to traditional medi.
I hardly lose to hamguards with absolute resolution but if they elite my krait and actually manage AR + contemplation then I could be toast.

You never fought a good mesmer, thief, ranger 1v1. I can message you the names of people who you’ll likely never beat consistently if you’d like. The majority are in Fear.

I thought I could down any cele ele until I actually found a couple who I couldn’t beat. The same probably applies to you and these classes.

back on topic:
Burn guards will be more aggressive in their bursts but even more suceptable to getting countered.

Saiyan.1704:

SlayerSixx.5763:

How on earth do you lose to mesmers, rangers, and thieves? Also, hammer guards give you trouble? Their slow, extremely telegraphed attacks give you problems? What on earth are you running with?

21614 is refering to traditional medi.
I hardly lose to hamguards with absolute resolution but if they elite my krait and actually manage AR + contemplation then I could be toast.

You never fought a good mesmer, thief, ranger 1v1. I can message you the names of people who you’ll likely never beat consistently if you’d like. The majority are in Fear.

I thought I could down any cele ele until I actually found a couple who I couldn’t beat. The same probably applies to you and these classes.

back on topic:
Burn guards will be more aggressive in their bursts but even more suceptable to getting countered.

Sure. A learning experience is always welcome.

SlayerSixx.5763:

How on earth do you lose to mesmers, rangers, and thieves? Also, hammer guards give you trouble? Their slow, extremely telegraphed attacks give you problems? What on earth are you running with?

on my hybrid guard a thief has hard job to taking me but eventualy he can after some time becuase i burn all my utilities and block skills . on average i have high win rate

gs medi gaurd are hard to handle as they got good cleanse rotations
mesmer if they smart will play from range which is the guardian problem (maybe LB will fix it)
ranger power one are easy sometimes depends on thier build and cleanse ability

Rip DH vs chronomancer that near passive clone spawn, skill cooldown and skill cooldown increase access (GS sword/shield already seeing them)
Rip DH vs reaper, passive chill ,chill on fear that 50K health gap closing skills near all new skills heal health/lifeforce
What the hell is next ?
(worst case scenario) thief’s gets passive stealth that will be the final nail in the DH coffin and the death of GW2 and welcome to PWI 2 assassins folks

AGGabriel.9230:

Rip DH vs chronomancer that near passive clone spawn, skill cooldown and skill cooldown increase access (GS sword/shield already seeing them)
Rip DH vs reaper, passive chill ,chill on fear that 50K health gap closing skills near all new skills heal health/lifeforce
What the hell is next ?
(worst case scenario) thief’s gets passive stealth that will be the final nail in the DH coffin and the death of GW2 and welcome to PWI 2 assassins folks

Yea chrono = perma slow + 100% crit rate (rip guardians autoattack)
Reaper = 100% chill uptime (~relative120k health) (rip guardians long CD – bow from 60 cd to ~75 maybe)

You forgot to mention :
Eles remove burning with dodge (rip guardian condi dmg) + perma fury (they need only stealth in specialization)
Thief get 2 steal (thats 8 sec of daze) + perma stability (expected)

what do we expect:
Druid – 100% uptime of resistance and weakness and cripple + consecrations better than guardians
Engineer – hammer 100% burn uptime and retalation – pets who follow and heal + regen 100% uptime
Warrior – Monk – 100% confusion and protection uptime (1 stack + more with skills) + maybe stealth + some kind of pets (spirit weapons, turrets…)

So wheres the place of new DH ?
Somewhere in the back because all other classes will get so much better stuff because guardians are at good place and can beat non moving thief with traps and even lose to average hambow user. (90% guardians were concerned regarding traps – who was never used- and Anet knows that because they screwed up and have no time to change – look at the name too- so they gave us pvp video that shows us how bad DH is) But do not fear we have an upgrade to our class called The Revenant. Feel free to upgrade.

(its not negative repply, its realistic – )

Ragnarox.9601:

Eles remove burning with dodge (rip guardian condi dmg)

Um, so what? Once burning shifts to [‘stacks intensity’ rather than ‘stacks duration’, it’s going to emasculate this kind of cleanse because the damage will already have been inflicted instead of queing up and waiting to happen when the cleanse arrives.

That one change to the burning condition is going to require major rethinking of our offensive options.

messiah.1908:

SlayerSixx.5763:

How on earth do you lose to mesmers, rangers, and thieves? Also, hammer guards give you trouble? Their slow, extremely telegraphed attacks give you problems? What on earth are you running with?

on my hybrid guard a thief has hard job to taking me but eventualy he can after some time becuase i burn all my utilities and block skills . on average i have high win rate

gs medi gaurd are hard to handle as they got good cleanse rotations
mesmer if they smart will play from range which is the guardian problem (maybe LB will fix it)
ranger power one are easy sometimes depends on thier build and cleanse ability

That’s the thing, though. Any kiting advantage the other classes could’ve excersized over us is now gone when we get the longbow. I don’t know about you guys, but I’ll be picking up my Jesus beam to compliment my meditations. If you can burst hard enough, everything except for a shoutbow won’t survive longer than the first 60 seconds.

Look at it this way. You don’t have to burn JI to be able to reliably land WW. You have the GS leap, GS5, the virtue leap which will damage AND immobilize of traited, longbows passive knock back, longbows ranged ward AND a cripple on your auto. All of these options WITHOUT having to crutch on JI. If you use hammer, the CC options increase 100×. People complain that the other classes are getting substantial buffs and don’t agree that guard is in a good place, but you have to remember that we’ll finally have some actual freedom when it comes to choosing our battles.

Also @ Gabriel
If you played and geared your seeker right, you could facetank a sin and one shot him, kinda like how it is here :P.

I’d just like to take a moment and say, I’m so glad we have Jesus Beam back. I’m also glad we have 5th level Cleric spells in Blade Barrier, and the meat grinder that is the bane of all Dwemer ruin explorers.

Not sure if that’s 100% correct Slayer in terms of kitability. What I mean by this is when I was watching the video, there seemed to be some “obstruction” issue’s (same with scepter) on the auto-attack. Really hoping this isn’t the case.

for the momenton paper guard are fine (even without DH) and nothing much has changed

sure other got nice buff but will have to invest points on it where today you can spread all over the trait tree

the point on burning guard is now you have to make some good fast combo which stack burning fast to do nice 5k dps with 8 burning stacks where as today its more easy to cleanse even with passive trait (the ele passive trait is on 10 sec cd so burst after it proc)

The thief was an example (i hope just an example)
But the current 2 professions i see over advantage on the DH, compare the new access of each profession how will it counter
Example of some chronomancer traits (i find my head tilted to one side and think,
How the hell will i cope with this ?)
-Flow of Time – Gain alacrity when you shatter. (1s) (That is 4/5 !!! and mesmers usually use them all)
-Illusionary Reversion – Gain a clone after you activate a shatter skill (so pop 3 clones shatter in you alacrity comes with it, pop 1 back as a back up and send it there and so on.. , soo.. run from them yea right with what ? stop them with what Puncture Shot? that will cripple (2s) if there are more but not slow them towards you)
-Lost Time – Every 3rd critical hit will slow your target. (2s of Slow) (soo… perma slow on me already having a godly slow cooldown on the guardian skills)
Should i continue about the reaper ?

AGGabriel.9230:

The thief was an example (i hope just an example)
But the current 2 professions i see over advantage on the DH, compare the new access of each profession how will it counter
Example of some chronomancer traits (i find my head tilted to one side and think,
How the hell will i cope with this ?)
-Flow of Time – Gain alacrity when you shatter. (1s) (That is 4/5 !!! and mesmers usually use them all)
-Illusionary Reversion – Gain a clone after you activate a shatter skill (so pop 3 clones shatter in you alacrity comes with it, pop 1 back as a back up and send it there and so on.. , soo.. run from them yea right with what ? stop them with what Puncture Shot? that will cripple (2s) if there are more but not slow them towards you)
-Lost Time – Every 3rd critical hit will slow your target. (2s of Slow) (soo… perma slow on me already having a godly slow cooldown on the guardian skills)
Should i continue about the reaper ?

^ we are in a good place

AGGabriel.9230:

The thief was an example (i hope just an example)
But the current 2 professions i see over advantage on the DH, compare the new access of each profession how will it counter
Example of some chronomancer traits (i find my head tilted to one side and think,
How the hell will i cope with this ?)
-Flow of Time – Gain alacrity when you shatter. (1s) (That is 4/5 !!! and mesmers usually use them all)
-Illusionary Reversion – Gain a clone after you activate a shatter skill (so pop 3 clones shatter in you alacrity comes with it, pop 1 back as a back up and send it there and so on.. , soo.. run from them yea right with what ? stop them with what Puncture Shot? that will cripple (2s) if there are more but not slow them towards you)
-Lost Time – Every 3rd critical hit will slow your target. (2s of Slow) (soo… perma slow on me already having a godly slow cooldown on the guardian skills)
Should i continue about the reaper ?

It would make for an interesting discussion :)
Added spoilers for ease of read.

Condi vs Mesmers/Thieves
Because I need to mention something about condi guardians, all the time :)

Our 1300 damage ticks during weapon switch+judge’s intervention will be nerfed to 1k damage ticks. Edited: Excuse me, 900’ish damage. Poison’s dmg is nerfed too.

The good: our F1 burns will no longer stack in duration, so Mesmers and Thieves can immediately feel every single burn proc burst.

The bad: Instead of applying 7s worth of 800 burn ticks right before they stealth, we’ll likely only deal 500 burns at any one time…What made hybrid guardians so great was the fact that we didn’t need to glue ourselves to any one target because mobility sucked. Now we NEED to glue ourselves to a target to stack shorter F1 procs. This is both rewarding and dangerously risky for a multitude of reasons.

Saiyan.1704:

AGGabriel.9230:

The thief was an example (i hope just an example)
But the current 2 professions i see over advantage on the DH, compare the new access of each profession how will it counter
Example of some chronomancer traits (i find my head tilted to one side and think,
How the hell will i cope with this ?)
-Flow of Time – Gain alacrity when you shatter. (1s) (That is 4/5 !!! and mesmers usually use them all)
-Illusionary Reversion – Gain a clone after you activate a shatter skill (so pop 3 clones shatter in you alacrity comes with it, pop 1 back as a back up and send it there and so on.. , soo.. run from them yea right with what ? stop them with what Puncture Shot? that will cripple (2s) if there are more but not slow them towards you)
-Lost Time – Every 3rd critical hit will slow your target. (2s of Slow) (soo… perma slow on me already having a godly slow cooldown on the guardian skills)
Should i continue about the reaper ?

It would make for an interesting discussion
Added spoilers for ease of read.

Mesmer vs DH

hide spoiler

Mesmers
Mesmer’s applying Slow, is going to have no better performance than the current Condi Mesmers. It’s only strong if you don’t manage your cleanses correctly and I don’t see Guardian’s leaving Absolute Resolution anytime soon. Even then, we may dish out just enough damage and self cleanses with meditations to not need Virtue; but to be honest, I don’t see any meta build without these team-wanting Virtue utilities.

It could be a close matchup with just the DH bow but then again, the AA hits three. Clones could get two or three shotted all together, compared to Scepter that never really performed all that well against Mesmers anyways. Not to mention that Shattered Aegis alone will destroy mesmer clones, as well as F3’s 4k crit stomp ability. That makes for some quick decisions when the Mesmer is obviously sending clones your way.

Shelter early to prevent the burst or save for the Mesmer’s Shield #5 and wait for another burst? Either ways, Mesmers are going to need all the Alacrity they can get their hands on.

TL;DR
We’ll still be able to dodge/blind/block Mesmer shatter bursts so things really wont change a whole lot regarding Guard vs Mesmer matchups. Mesmers will still be running away for when we switch to GS’s 2k auto crits and 6k crit WW/Hammer. Mesmers will still be wanting to kite us the best that they can but DH’s Cripple isn’t going to let them do so, so easily. It’s going to be a heavy mind-game battle that could go either way.

Thieves vs DH

hide spoiler

Thieves
The Thief melted when he absorbed all the Guardian’s bursts… I’m not a bit convinced that that’ll be the typical matchup. In fact, i’m more worried about what Thieve’s are getting in their specialization that gave us a trap that could see stealthies to begin with. After all, Karl is the lead Guardian, Thief and Eles designer. So that begs the question, what the heck are thieves getting that just screamed, “give guardian some leeway here.”

Since Mesmers are deceptive, Thieves will likely take after them. They could gain Mantras, Manipulation or Glamour. Each being equally bad (deadly). That’s all we need.. a Thief with Distortion abilities =/. Just the thought of it makes me wish all traps could see stealthies.
TL;DR
Thieves are going to get something deadly that’s going to suck for us guards.

Condi vs Mesmers/Thieves
Because I need to mention something about condi guardians, all the time

Our 1300 damage ticks during weapon switch+judge’s intervention will be nerfed to 1k damage ticks. Edited: Excuse me, 900’ish damage. Poison’s dmg is nerfed too.

The good: our F1 burns will no longer stack in duration, so Mesmers and Thieves can immediately feel every single burn proc burst.

The bad: Instead of applying 7s worth of 800 burn ticks right before they stealth, we’ll likely only deal 500 burns at any one time…What made hybrid guardians so great was the fact that we didn’t need to glue ourselves to any one target because mobility sucked. Now we NEED to glue ourselves to a target to stack shorter F1 procs. This is both rewarding and dangerously risky for a multitude of reasons.

true true

but i dont think we need to glue to proc burning as we got so many ways to proc it.
scepter and LB range
block with aegis, shelter, focus also proc nice 3-6 stacks . so you can get nice heavy burst on you and back fire it to them with 4-5k dps for 2 sec till the cleanse which means 10k dmg

I dont think its going to be an issue in regards to sticking to a target like glue to get burning stacks. Obviously its going to help, and our total sustained damage MIGHT go down because of it, but the bust potentional is going to be insane now because of it. Shelter on ANYTHING multi hit is going to wreck people almost instantly because of the insane stacks you can get, let alone other skills for burning, or traits like defenders dogma, or the torch trait which gives you free zealots flame when crit.

wow Dragon Hunters look beastly!!!

Maybe they should be the people hunted perhaps?