Guild Wars 2

So, lets just say you felt like rolling DH and being a burn guard cause you like people crying and insulting you for some reason.
How does everyone think the trap Light’s Judgement would work for burn ticks?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light%27s_Judgement

Says it hits 10 times. so that’s able to proc VoJ at least 3 times on it’s own plus you have the attacks you do after that.
I was thinking it would be fun to JI in and use RoW then lay the trap. They would be stuck in there. then use LB 5 to get another lockdown, unless they’ve blinked to stabed up. and then throw the LB burn symbol down as well.

I’m not sure if its a good idea of if I’m just trying really hard to find a fun way to make DH stuff work. Any opinions?

So is the idea to remove Purging flames from this? As far as I’m concerned, CoP isn’t going anywhere and JI is too handy plus it’s another stun break and burning applicator and heal!

I feel like forcing a trap is the weirdest way to make burn work on DH. I wished there was a way to get burn from our bow outside of VOJ.

I don’t think it’s about forcing traps so much as it is having one work as an option, which really would make sense if ANet wants condi guardian to be a legitimate build. Maybe if they decide one our traps is a bit weak, they can just attach some burning to it (or add it to a trait).

I’d also like to see a bit more burning on Longbow. I originally wanted True Shot to apply two stacks of burning, but with Pure of Sight being buffed, that may put its damage over the top.

If they want traps to be viable, they need to reduce cooldowns and add traits that allow them to do things like remove conditions or do some healing like monks focus but for traps.

The thing is, core Guardian already had all the tools for a burn build – PF and JI.

I already knew the bow would be a terrible candidate for a burn guardian. It gets no where near the 15 burn aoe potential of GS nor the burn/sustain/utility damages of Focus/torch/shield.

Everything the DH brings is for Power builds. Even Rampage doesn’t work as well as Zerkers amulet for the spec.

As much as I’d like DH to be an even more powerful burn build, the spec itself utilizes Power stats better. To be honest, our power meta (or lack thereof) needed it.

There is one option which I’m definitely going to use. Procession of Blades, Lights Judgement, and Fragments of Faith. Place down PoB and LJ on an area. When sins people (better yet, a zerg) procs the trap, cast Hunter’s Ward in the trap to create 1-5 wards. Drop your Symbol of Energy and then swap to Scepter+Torch where you can smite and Cleansing Flame for more VoJ procs. Purging Flames’ condition removal can be replaced with Hunters Fortification while the burning of caused from all the multi hit abilities and Permeating Wrath.

Burn DH objective defender
Here’s something like I was talking about. Your traps are your melee area control while you’ve got two ranged weapons to keep people locked down. Keep in mind some of the future changes. JL now has a 30s (24s) cd and grants swiftness. FoF loses about 40% damage, but will break stun and grant stability. PoB gains about 20% damage and gives Fury.

Ghotistyx.6942:

There is one option which I’m definitely going to use. Procession of Blades, Lights Judgement, and Fragments of Faith. Place down PoB and LJ on an area. When sins people (better yet, a zerg) procs the trap, cast Hunter’s Ward in the trap to create 1-5 wards. Drop your Symbol of Energy and then swap to Scepter+Torch where you can smite and Cleansing Flame for more VoJ procs. Purging Flames’ condition removal can be replaced with Hunters Fortification while the burning of caused from all the multi hit abilities and Permeating Wrath.

I’ll come back to post a link. DH doesn’t offer a ton for burning builds, but it does offer this.

As nice as that is, that DH combo is even worse in terms of “going all in”. Once it fails by that single condi cleanse, all you have left is the raw damage from traps and weapons.

The core burn guardian can go all in by using PF and JI both. Is it effective? Absolutely. But when it’s not, we’re as good as dead unless they happened to get downed.

You’re also forgetting that DH has to land hits for it to be effective. This is your 1-trick poney people refer too – the GS scenario: It’s only effective if people (more than 1) are all getting hit at once.
In this case, 2 players not just caught in the traps, but are both receiving ALL the trap’kittens.

It’ll sometimes work in unranked/ranked yoloQ but definitely not in tournament play where people are more cautiously spread out. (Mid on Foefire map).

Power DH builds will still outperform burn DH builds.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

If they want traps to be viable, they need to reduce cooldowns and add traits that allow them to do things like remove conditions or do some healing like monks focus but for traps.

They did half of that. Lights Judgement will be on a 30 sec CD.

OT:
The trap wokrs very well for burn burst builds when you jump a team fight.
I used it in conjunction with JI, Dragons Maw or FMW and Rune of the mad king.

It gets pretty sick and often enough I downed three players at once.
however the problem is its a one trick pony on a 45 sec CD and in 1vs1 situations your kitten nal is quite limited. So if you keep looking only for teamfights you might find yourself doing traveling more then is useful for the team. if your team knows what up when they see the snap of dragons maw it can lead to a coordinate aoe burst which turns around mid fights instantly.

With the new CD reduction it will be possible to use more often but with less impact.

To utilizes it you will always need an area lock down because people will peel very fast.
What DH does bring however is the cripple which prevents moving away too fast and with it vurnability. so basically two cover conditions which is helping to maintain the full duration of burn ticks more consistently.

Having three targets close together however creates insane amounts of burn stacks. In normal open world pve this is already overkill especially if you toss in a WW.

Saiyan.1704:

As nice as that is, that DH combo is even worse in terms of “going all in”. Once it fails by that single condi cleanse, all you have left is the raw damage from traps and weapons.

The core burn guardian can go all in by using PF and JI both. Is it effective? Absolutely. But when it’s not, we’re as good as dead unless they happened to get downed.

You’re also forgetting that DH has to land hits for it to be effective. This is your 1-trick poney people refer too – the GS scenario: It’s only effective if people (more than 1) are all getting hit at once.
In this case, 2 players not just caught in the traps, but are both receiving ALL the trap’kittens.

It’ll sometimes work in unranked/ranked yoloQ but definitely not in tournament play where people are more cautiously spread out. (Mid on Foefire map).

Power DH builds will still outperform burn DH builds.

Notable points. I even made sure I kept my edit a certain way so that your points stay valid. You’re correct in saying that this would require hits to be effective, but then again that’s just like any build. It’s certainly built to be more of a team fighter than a dueler, but it’s not a rare occurrence that there is more than one opponent on a point. It’s also weak to a condi bomb, but not necessarily weak to conditions as a whole (granted, a condi bomb is what you should expect from condi builds). Now, I’ve been sharing this idea around for awhile, but mainly as a wvw build (where it has much more opportunity for impact, I think we’ll both agree). However, it certainly has a spot on pvp. Not everyone plays ESL, and so some builds will naturally have different levels of performance with different skill levels. I have no doubt it can perform well once leagues start.

Here’s one more option with Dragonhunter that I’m sure you’ll like. No predictions on performance, but the concept is there.
DH block burn

If traps still had bleed application (& possibly cripple on more of them) then DH could be good for a condi guard because it would mean the enemy would have to cleanse more to counter your damage output.

Sadly since they don’t there is no real reason to use Dh for condi builds as everything a condi build needs is done better by core guardian stuff.

The only exception to this could be WvW where if you get enough dragonhunters (who also have virtues for aoe burns) to lay down traps in a choke point that you effectively make it a suicide area for enemies.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

The only exception to this could be WvW where if you get enough dragonhunters (who also have virtues for aoe burns) to lay down traps in a choke point that you effectively make it a suicide area for enemies.

I am so ready for that day. I’m going to conscript a guild of Dragonhunters and do just that. With the current landscape of keeps/towers, smc, and the new borderlands having more choke points, it’ll be amazing.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

The only exception to this could be WvW where if you get enough dragonhunters (who also have virtues for aoe burns) to lay down traps in a choke point that you effectively make it a suicide area for enemies.

I am so ready for that day. I’m going to conscript a guild of Dragonhunters and do just that. With the current landscape of keeps/towers, smc, and the new borderlands having more choke points, it’ll be amazing.

Horde of players stop in front of the door

Horde: Send in.. Jeff. Hey Jeff! Jeff!!!

Jeff: Darn it… guys…

Jeff Walks Towards Gate Slowly…

Traps Trigger!

sudden bright light

GGRRRRUUGGGAGAGAGAGA!!!
SHEENSHEENSHEENSHEEN!!!
SSSPPOOOOOPH!!!

bright light dims

Jeff: ugh..

Horde: Yay! Awe crap another gate.

Horde: Send in.. Bob. Hey Bob! Bob!!!

Drop a single line of traps to act as a decoy bomb, murder the sacrifice and all their friends the follow later.

Set all your traps to the right, sweep in from the left, circle around into the killzone.

Drop traps inside, jump outside the walls and push them forward into the killzone

Lace each entrance to SMC with traps on the edges. Drop AC on the stairs to cover Lord. Watch as the SMC 3-way becomes a bag blender.

Hail Rodgort

Saiyan.1704:

The thing is, core Guardian already had all the tools for a burn build – PF and JI.
I already knew the bow would be a terrible candidate for a burn guardian. It gets no where near the 15 burn aoe potential of GS nor the burn/sustain/utility damages of Focus/torch/shield.
Everything the DH brings is for Power builds. Even Rampage doesn’t work as well as Zerkers amulet for the spec.
As much as I’d like DH to be an even more powerful burn build, the spec itself utilizes Power stats better. To be honest, our power meta (or lack thereof) needed it.

By jove, please stop using definitive statements. There’s a few things within the Dragonhunter that makes condi guard better. And I’m just sitting here being surprised that you can’t see it. I don’t want to explain anything because I’m a jerk who likes to be a know-it-all that doesn’t say anything about anything but man, just go compare other condi classes to DH and figure out what the DH spec is giving us to simulate what the other classes have. If you still can’t figure it out then /shrug I guess.

Saiyan.1704:

Power DH builds will still outperform burn DH builds.

Definitely no doubt about that.

Dirame.8521:

Saiyan.1704:

The thing is, core Guardian already had all the tools for a burn build – PF and JI.
I already knew the bow would be a terrible candidate for a burn guardian. It gets no where near the 15 burn aoe potential of GS nor the burn/sustain/utility damages of Focus/torch/shield.
Everything the DH brings is for Power builds. Even Rampage doesn’t work as well as Zerkers amulet for the spec.
As much as I’d like DH to be an even more powerful burn build, the spec itself utilizes Power stats better. To be honest, our power meta (or lack thereof) needed it.

By jove, please stop using definitive statements. There’s a few things within the Dragonhunter that makes condi guard better. And I’m just sitting here being surprised that you can’t see it. I don’t want to explain anything because I’m a jerk who likes to be a know-it-all that doesn’t say anything about anything but man, just go compare other condi classes to DH and figure out what the DH spec is giving us to simulate what the other classes have. If you still can’t figure it out then /shrug I guess.

Saiyan.1704:

Power DH builds will still outperform burn DH builds.

Definitely no doubt about that.

Definitive statements? I call them facts :P I’m more than willing to look at what ever aspect you think DH brings that the core burn Guardian can’t do more efficiently.

We all know that DH can potentially have a higher burn burst damage over the current meta burn guardian – assuming DH can hit multiple targets in close proximity of each other, with his traps. This is worse of a 1-trick pony gimmick item than GS and Permeating Wrath (15 burn stacks from WW in a group)

DH also has an additional 12s worth of burns on blocks with F3’s trait.

Are these two items the burn performance increase you’re referring too? If they are I can explain in further detail as to why it wont increase burn guardian’s performance. If not, i’d like to know why you think DH will be better than the current burn guardian’s PF/JI/CoP, Virtues/Valor/Radiance build variant.

I don’t mean to sound facetious either I generally want to know if there’s another aspect i’m overlooking about DH. I tried only a couple burn DH builds then switched to Power variants that seemed to perform a whole lot better in comparison. Wish I had a longer weekend to theory craft.

Actually with f3 you got block on burning and making justice passive ready on block. We can attack while using f3 active. So f3 can be turned into a burn burst skill if you can time it right. Though i still want defenders dogma changed, hate fact it feels like a weaker amplified wrath! (zealots aggression should take defenders dogma place and then new major trait should be condition focused.)

I did play celestial amulet and balthazar runes with burn traits in BWE3, simply to test it. For me it actually pretty successful for the way i played and one thing i noticed after every match was, i often got “top condition damage”, though my power damage was higher on end screen, condition didn´t lack much behind with general same split. (Think i did one that was 350k power based damage and 300k condition/burning. ). This was with a trap build, since i had to test traps. Damage for this build has only gone up with Procession of Blades doing more damage and giving fury, Dragon’s Maw giving 10 might and Test of Faith doing damage when triggered(Protection is also a added bonus)

But longbow is the weapon that gives most option for use of condition damage, since we get a burning attack and also get projectile finisher (20% skill 1 and 100% on skill 2 and 3). This is a bit more random, but we do see fire fields and other condi fields in spvp. It can still be combo with torch in 2nd weapon set and we have the 2 only burning weapon attacks for guardian.

I will without doubt try celestial balthazar rune build again when hots is released (got ascended celestial set ready for pve and spvp already has amulet for it).

Now to OP comment. If you put good amount burn on it, i could see some people using it. But i would still rather take Procession of Blades which also hits 10 times, since those hits happen faster. Honestly i think we just need 1 little thing to make condition build good. Like condition on traps, justice passive working when on cooldown, a condition on crit/hit, cripple does damage or anything like this.

(Goes back to dreaming about ideas to make condition damage dragon hunter just a bit better!)

Saiyan.1704:

Dirame.8521:

Saiyan.1704:

The thing is, core Guardian already had all the tools for a burn build – PF and JI.
I already knew the bow would be a terrible candidate for a burn guardian. It gets no where near the 15 burn aoe potential of GS nor the burn/sustain/utility damages of Focus/torch/shield.
Everything the DH brings is for Power builds. Even Rampage doesn’t work as well as Zerkers amulet for the spec.
As much as I’d like DH to be an even more powerful burn build, the spec itself utilizes Power stats better. To be honest, our power meta (or lack thereof) needed it.

By jove, please stop using definitive statements. There’s a few things within the Dragonhunter that makes condi guard better. And I’m just sitting here being surprised that you can’t see it. I don’t want to explain anything because I’m a jerk who likes to be a know-it-all that doesn’t say anything about anything but man, just go compare other condi classes to DH and figure out what the DH spec is giving us to simulate what the other classes have. If you still can’t figure it out then /shrug I guess.

Saiyan.1704:

Power DH builds will still outperform burn DH builds.

Definitely no doubt about that.

Definitive statements? I call them facts :P I’m more than willing to look at what ever aspect you think DH brings that the core burn Guardian can’t do more efficiently.

We all know that DH can potentially have a higher burn burst damage over the current meta burn guardian – assuming DH can hit multiple targets in close proximity of each other, with his traps. This is worse of a 1-trick pony gimmick item than GS and Permeating Wrath (15 burn stacks from WW in a group)

DH also has an additional 12s worth of burns on blocks with F3’s trait.

Are these two items the burn performance increase you’re referring too? If they are I can explain in further detail as to why it wont increase burn guardian’s performance. If not, i’d like to know why you think DH will be better than the current burn guardian’s PF/JI/CoP, Virtues/Valor/Radiance build variant.

I don’t mean to sound facetious either I generally want to know if there’s another aspect i’m overlooking about DH. I tried only a couple burn DH builds then switched to Power variants that seemed to perform a whole lot better in comparison. Wish I had a longer weekend to theory craft.

I’m just using a trait set-up that improves the effectiveness of the Condi application that the core guardian provides.

No tricks, no traps, just plain old condi guard, new and improved. New and improved? how you may ask? but that’s the art where I’ll be a absolute kitten and not tell you :P because I know you’ll figure it out eventually.

Permeating Wrath, Zealot’s Aggression, and Dulled Senses provides 3 conditions on application, cripple for anti kite, and vulnerability for improved hybrid damage. Being able to pump those out every 3-5 attacks is nasty.

I could see something like this being used. Valor could be dropped for Radiance depending on preference of cooldowns and such.

Best part of that is that it is a AoE burn, cripple and vul you are throwing out there. (First thing i tested in BWE3 was how permeating wrath worked with dulled sense and Zealot’s aggression combo).

Though i was using radiance and long bow(was beta weekend and i was here to test!). But if you managed to pull off a whirling wrath with more the 1 enemy. The amount stuff i was throwing out was just fun to watch.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Permeating Wrath, Zealot’s Aggression, and Dulled Senses provides 3 conditions on application, cripple for anti kite, and vulnerability for improved hybrid damage. Being able to pump those out every 3-5 attacks is nasty.

I could see something like this being used. Valor could be dropped for Radiance depending on preference of cooldowns and such.

Condition/Hybrid DH works out great. I usually run Radiance/Honor/Virtues with some Shouts and Consecrations on my Guardian. But going DH indeeds adds a nasty amount of Cripple and additional burns through traps. I ran something like this during beta for a while:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApeRnsABFdiddCODBkdilAiSe77+z3KAeg3MbIawJE-ThBMABxp+DD7P0hyPA0HgoSwkM/BA-e

Probably not the best for WvW, though. Survivability is still quite nice when switching to M/Sh thanks to Hunters Fortification. Defenders Dogma amusingly makes a lot of sense in this set up because it speeds up your F1-frequency while rocking our defensive weapon set.

For WvW, a ranged set up with Sc/X + LB and Virtues/DH should be really fun. I’d love to take Radiance as well but I guess I’d rather have some survivability from Honor and Valor there.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Here’s one more option with Dragonhunter that I’m sure you’ll like. No predictions on performance, but the concept is there.
DH block burn

I actually ran a power burst version of that build that utilized SYG for the needed Stunbreaker and Stability. I tried shout burns but felt it was underperforming.

Xaylin.1860:

Ghotistyx.6942:

Permeating Wrath, Zealot’s Aggression, and Dulled Senses provides 3 conditions on application, cripple for anti kite, and vulnerability for improved hybrid damage. Being able to pump those out every 3-5 attacks is nasty.

I could see something like this being used. Valor could be dropped for Radiance depending on preference of cooldowns and such.

Condition/Hybrid DH works out great. I usually run Radiance/Honor/Virtues with some Shouts and Consecrations on my Guardian. But going DH indeeds adds a nasty amount of Cripple and additional burns through traps. I ran something like this during beta for a while:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApeRnsABFdiddCODBkdilAiSe77+z3KAeg3MbIawJE-ThBMABxp+DD7P0hyPA0HgoSwkM/BA-e

Probably not the best for WvW, though. Survivability is still quite nice when switching to M/Sh thanks to Hunters Fortification. Defenders Dogma amusingly makes a lot of sense in this set up because it speeds up your F1-frequency while rocking our defensive weapon set.

For WvW, a ranged set up with Sc/X + LB and Virtues/DH should be really fun. I’d love to take Radiance as well but I guess I’d rather have some survivability from Honor and Valor there.

I really liked these builds and felt they offered the better performance of the others. I just wish I had more time to play DH :(

Still not all that impressed with Defender’s Dogma. You would have to block numerous attacks while also hitting numerous players. It doesn’t replace, or complement, Supreme Justice at all or permeating wrath for that matter.

Saiyan.1704:

I actually ran a power burst version of that build that utilized SYG for the needed Stunbreaker and Stability. I tried shout burns but felt it was underperforming.

Fortunately, FoF is getting stability and the stun break to go along with instant casting, thereby being able to replace SYG. Synergizes with Shattered Aegis and other things along with having that defensive utility.

Haha i haven’t even seen the new BWE3 thread!
\m/

Saiyan.1704:

Still not all that impressed with Defender’s Dogma. You would have to block numerous attacks while also hitting numerous players. It doesn’t replace, or complement, Supreme Justice at all or permeating wrath for that matter.

Actually it does complement / partly replace Supreme Justice with certain set ups. Because it works great with slow weapons or when not facing many enemies as long as you got enoug blocks. Drop your trap. Pick up one Aegis one after another to reset your F1 passive. Pop an occasional Mace or Shield block while your trap is on cooldown.

It might not be attractive with Sword, GS or Scepter. But Defenders Dogma is pretty nice for builds with Mace or Hammer.

Xaylin.1860:

Saiyan.1704:

Still not all that impressed with Defender’s Dogma. You would have to block numerous attacks while also hitting numerous players. It doesn’t replace, or complement, Supreme Justice at all or permeating wrath for that matter.

Actually it does complement / partly replace Supreme Justice with certain set ups. Because it works great with slow weapons or when not facing many enemies as long as you got enoug blocks. Drop your trap. Pick up one Aegis one after another to reset your F1 passive. Pop an occasional Mace or Shield block while your trap is on cooldown.

It might not be attractive with Sword, GS or Scepter. But Defenders Dogma is pretty nice for builds with Mace or Hammer.

Yea you have a point there. Haven’t thought about slower weapons like mace/hammer taking advantage of DD trait over GS/sc/sw. I’ve completely overlooked that aspect o.o

There’s particular synergy with Protectors Strike, which blocks first, and then attacks on a delay, ensuring that whatever it strikes will take a VoJ passive along side it.

Ghotistyx.6942:

There’s particular synergy with Protectors Strike, which blocks first, and then attacks on a delay, ensuring that whatever it strikes will take a VoJ passive along side it.

it also works well with shattered aegis

Honestly I am very excited about making a block/aegis trait focused mace based DH. Kind of a battle cleric or war priest style of play.