(edited by Arnath.2319)
Dragonhunter, Lost All Vision
Oh, thanks for going back and looking at this stuff!
I get why they wanted to make the two changes they did, I just think they should have considered different changes
Problem 1: energy symbol has additional on-hit effect that doesn’t fit
Solution: Remove burn on hit, but change physical damage with pulsing burn effect
Problem 2: bleed on hit was only really interesting for a couple of traps
Solution: add bleed on longbow hits (or maybe weapon crits, regardless add more to make it more useful instead of ditching it entirely)
One other note. The grandmaster traits for Daredevil are really cool where they have three different options for altering how dodge works. They could do the same here (not with GM tier without major changes) with three different trap options, for instance 1s daze, bleed on hit, and maybe an extra heal or a condition cleanse.
Regardless, I agree that it feels scattered thematically. I would support pulling it from the BWE, stepping back, reassessing what they want the role of the specialization to be, and making sure all the components stay true to the vision they have for it.
(edited by Misguided.5139)
As far as the condition aspect goes, I’m going to assume it changed because all the players were like “This sucks and we don’t like it, its useless, burn is superior anyway, ect” after the BWE. Seriously like 90% of the feedback I saw about the trap bleed traits were like that. It wasn’t “its lackluster, only works on a few traps, make it better” but rather “bleed is useless, doesn’t fit thematically, and we don’t want it”.
Player feedback. Its a thing, for better or worse.
Bleed on trap was not useful so not going to misss it and real condi guards (made viable by the condition stacking patch) wont miss them either since their build relies on on utilities to survive and deal damage they cant afford to lose heals and condi cleanses for in exchange for pathetic bleeds and nearly no survivability.
Dragonhunter has always been about kiting, and that hasn’t ever changed from introduction to current proposal. In fact, I’d say it’s even easier to kite with the proposed changes than anytime before.
Fishsticks
Burn stacking made condi Guard a thing.
It’s seen multiple plays in the recent tournaments.
What more do you want?
Bleed on trap was not useful so not going to misss it and real condi guards (made viable by the condition stacking patch) wont miss them either since their build relies on on utilities to survive and deal damage they cant afford to lose heals and condi cleanses for in exchange for pathetic bleeds and nearly no survivability.
Well, gosh, apparently I’m not a “real condi guard”. Thanks for keeping an open mind.
Maybe playing around with traps as combo fields/finishers could help make them more viable in more game modes? Like making Procession of Blades a whirl finisher, would create synergy with symbol of energy, without being forced into greatsword? Could also allow you to place traps, create distance and then place consecrations for added effect and utility.
Maybe it is a bad idea, but somehow I feel traps lack some kind of reward from smart play and combos more than they currently do. Compared to other utility skills traps are:
1. Harder to position well and can’t be placed at range
2. provides no mobility
3. Have long cooldowns
4. lack of fields and finishers
5. provides little to surviveability, especially due to #1
6. Mediocre damage, due to all other points people really need to be scared of triggering them.
If the traps could really help controlling the battlefield, zoning opponents or be better at locking down opponents who triggers the traps to setup kills, I feel the dragonhunters role as a battlefield commander type would be in a better place. Support through zoning/seting up killzones and switching between ranged and melee.
So how does the dragonhunter differentiate itself from the ranger? Slightly more support but less damage? I’m not sure right now
Hummm, if a big castle is being taken, get a blob of DH spam all trap on door or lords room then while anemy is dying just shoot them with LB from wall.
Or stack, spam all traps and bait them.
1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.
…..
One other note. The grandmaster traits for Daredevil are really cool where they have three different options for altering how dodge works. They could do the same here (not with GM tier without major changes) with three different trap options, for instance 1s daze, bleed on hit, and maybe an extra heal or a condition cleanse.….
concept is solid, your solution is not. every1 dodges, the daredevil is centered around dodging, there is literally no way to play a class that does not take adv of dodging.
3 trap options means, don’t play dragonhunter unless u use traps, otherwise u lose a whole GM trait. thats not a solution
better idea is, 3 spear of justice options, 1 for each new virtue options, something like that. and maybe they are similar to this in the recent update post, i don’t remember.
but, don’t lock a whole specialization line into 1 type of playstyle
edit, meant specialization line, not trait line
@Arnath (OP): I agree, but actually, with the recent update posted here, the possibility for it getting back on track and becoming absolutely amazing is potentially very strong. Only a few simple changes are needed, as recommended here, and we would have: Minor traits that made sense, general access to cripple, the potential to trait bleeding in a manner more generally effective than before but which also includes the previous functionality, more general synergy with numerous other Guardian traits and skills, the ability to kite, useful and powerful traps, and the ability to choose whether we wanted to run full or partial range or melee and condi/pure damage, without any of the minor traits becoming automatically useless. (Basically, two of the revamped major traits need to replace the current master and GM minor traits, which themselves ought to be folded into the existing GM major traits.) What do you think?
better idea is, 3 spear of justice options, 1 for each new virtue options, something like that. and maybe they are similar to this in the recent update post, i don’t remember.
That’s perfect! I knew the other wasn’t quite right even as I typed it, but still threw it out there for feedback to see what shook out. This ^ is a stellar idea. Love the idea of different effects for Virtue of Justice.
Dragonhunter has always been about kiting, and that hasn’t ever changed from introduction to current proposal. In fact, I’d say it’s even easier to kite with the proposed changes than anytime before.
Yes, an elite specialization that has little mobility and many of its skills rooting you is obviously about kiting.
(edited by Fashion Mage.3712)
Dragonhunter has always been about kiting, and that hasn’t ever changed from introduction to current proposal. In fact, I’d say it’s even easier to kite with the proposed changes than anytime before.
Yes, an elite specialization that has little mobility and many of its skills rooting you is obviously about kiting.
Again, no issues with the root feature of Bow. Only 1 skill roots you for beefed up damage. LB#5 roots but that’s understandable, it’s a darn strong skill. Saying it’s “many skills” is subjective. I don’t think so at all.
It was always the Line of Sight issues with #3 and #4. That not only inhibited kiting techniques, but made the DH feel clunky as crap. Thankfully, it’s going to be fixed according to the notes.
I absolutely like that DH isn’t going to be as forgiving as regular meta builds. People are confusing that with clunkyness. If you’re having issues with root skills then maybe you’re doing it wrong.
aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
(edited by Saiyan.1704)
The bow gives you the means to kite, with comparatively fast projectiles, cripple access, a ward, and skills 3 and 4 are having their QoL improvements. Traps give you something to kite around. They’re various kinds of area control that you can use to dictate where the enemy goes. The skills and traits are built around fighting on the fringes of whatever enemy’s attack range.
Plus, with many of the upcoming changes, True Shot is going to become a mini piercing Killshot we can use every 4s. Needing to stand still is inconsequential.
Fishsticks
I’m liking the Dragonhunter gameplay but agree something feels off. For me it comes down to Longbow, Traps & the traits. I actually believe the designed functions of Longbow & each Trap is good and feel it’s more of an issue with the traits & virtues (A DH feedback post by me).
For a trap longbow DH to work I feel it needs more ways to force foes into your traps, as well as further enhanced survivability options. The only range option of forcing a foe into a trap if it can be call ranged is heavy light (knockback: 120 at 300 range threshold) & only if you take heavy light, otherwise it all depends on using another weapon (Greatsword, Hammer) or your foe walking into it themselves.
For Traps & Longbow to work smoothly at the base before trait,s DH’s need the ability to force foes into their traps. Without this even your survivability options provided by traps are unreliable & depend on your foe.
Another issue I have is overall traits feel lacking as options as many feel they should be combined with others & unlike other elite specializations I’m unsure of what the spec line themes should be if any exist at all.
Overall I like the concept & the gameplay I can see but feel it hasn’t achieved that gameplay yet.
Honestly, I really do like the Dragonhunter idea, and I’m pretty good with the bow and traps, in general. The traits are beginning to improve, as well, so I’m hopeful that by release time (or maybe even earlier), it will turn out to be as interesting, unique, and fun as it has the potential to be. A couple things that would fix most of the issues and help it a ton:
Zealot’s Aggression moved to the GM MINOR trait slot, and Pure of Sight merged with Heavy Light (the LB GM trait).
Defender’s Dogma (Master MINOR trait) functionality changed to: “When you activate a virtue, you gain swiftness” (for a reasonable amount of time).
Hunter’s Fortification merged into the Master tier trait, Bulwark (and losing the pointless -10% damage while not suffering a condition), so that Bulwark reads: “Shield of Courage is larger and lasts longer. Lose a condition when you successfully block an attack.”
“Traps spawn a symbol when activated” as a new Grandmaster trait.
A Master tier trait with the functionality: “You inflict bleeding whenever you strike a crippled opponent.”
Big Game Hunter also allows the player to retain Justice’s passive effect after activation.
Wings of Resolve base functionality made to be: Stun break. Evades during animation in exchange for somewhat reduced healing (and reduced immobilize on the trait) from what it currently is.
One thought with regards to all elites as they are designed around a weapon & single utility set which is locked to that elite & that elite only. Base gameplay with the elite’s weapon & utilities need to function & sync together with only the minor traits & without any of the major traits.
With regards to Longbow & Traps it’s about having the ability to relocate foes into your traps as without this any damage & survivability coming from traps is unreliable & Longbow & Traps should be reliable without any major traits.
I noticed the most recent elites like Bezerker and Dare Devil are much more defined, polished and create a sense of unique identity. I also noticed Dragon hunter has been hashed , rehashed and tuned many times since we were able to play and give feedback.
With the release date so soon I kinda wish they took DH back to the drawing board and gutted it, and redid the entire profession.
Guardian is my main, and I am the least excited about this Elite. In fact I heard this from other players too. I am more excited for my alts elite specs then my own mains. I should not been feeling like this :\
I noticed the most recent elites like Bezerker and Dare Devil are much more defined, polished and create a sense of unique identity. I also noticed Dragon hunter has been hashed , rehashed and tuned many times since we were able to play and give feedback.
With the release date so soon I kinda wish they took DH back to the drawing board and gutted it, and redid the entire profession.
Guardian is my main, and I am the least excited about this Elite. In fact I heard this from other players too. I am more excited for my alts elite specs then my own mains. I should not been feeling like this :\
+ for this one, DH supposed to be real fresh range option for guardians and then we got LB melee range + traps. haha. Too bad its not april fools joke cause it would be a good one. DH is first and worst elite spec. Don’t forget guardians are in a good place so DH is in a good place too.
I noticed the most recent elites like Bezerker and Dare Devil are much more defined, polished and create a sense of unique identity.
Well I do not think this is true.
you could also argue that Berserker does look cool but really it only emphasizes the adrenalin mechanic. you could also say this is just something they already had with a little twist. Especially Dare Devil has lots of thieves saying “we do not get anything new but only more of we already have”
DH on the other hand opens up a truly different playstyle where you will move in mid to far range kiting your opponents > if this is playstyle is worthwhile is a totally different matter.
if you want to sum it up:
keep the enemy away from you and if gets he/she close punish him/her. that is what LB +traps does well imo.
In terms of if this is still in line what the name Dragon hunter suggest I am not with you as well.
you do not take a dragon heads on. you lure him into a trap and attack from a far. Think about stone age mammoth hunt. drive them into a dead end and throw rocks from atop. you do not wrangle them down in close combat.
this really is all a matter of subjective interpretation and different opinions on the matter are unevoidable.
This is true Asmodal. However, if you really wanted Guardian’s to have a viable ranged weapon for kiting, all that had to be done was to fix Scepter’s tracking. This is all that needed to be done instead of implementing a brand new weapon while still maintaining the original problem Scepter has.
Guardian is my main, and I am the least excited about this Elite. In fact I heard this from other players too. I am more excited for my alts elite specs then my own mains. I should not been feeling like this :\
It’s quite ironic how DH was described as a “crowd pleaser” before it was revealed, yet it is by far the most hated specialization.
…
you do not take a dragon heads on. you lure him into a trap and attack from a far. Think about stone age mammoth hunt. drive them into a dead end and throw rocks from atop. you do not wrangle them down in close combat.
…
this is where u are wrong. u take a spear and murder them for their tusks. then you use those tusks to build a tower to the sun. which u climb for to be a god, or something
One thought with regards to all elites as they are designed around a weapon & single utility set which is locked to that elite & that elite only. Base gameplay with the elite’s weapon & utilities need to function & sync together with only the minor traits & without any of the major traits.
The base gameplay does function without the major traits they just get better if you do.
A good portion on any of traits on the standard specialisations enhance weapon skills or utilites either by reducing cool downs or adding additional effects. In what way exactly is DH different from that? Infact they need to be focused on the utilites and the weapon since it has to be incorporated into one single traitline and cant spread out like Zeal/honor (which might be a mistake in itself).
At the moment each tier has an option that can be useful for a build that does not use any traps or the longbow.
The only thing left imo that needs changing is pure of sight. Personally i would change it to 5% damage within the threshold and reduce it to 400. Which also makes more sense because the closer you are to a bow the greater the force of impact is (at least on none barrage like application).
One thought with regards to all elites as they are designed around a weapon & single utility set which is locked to that elite & that elite only. Base gameplay with the elite’s weapon & utilities need to function & sync together with only the minor traits & without any of the major traits.
The base gameplay does function without the major traits they just get better if you do.
What I was trying to get at with this statement was that the elite specializations theme’s are designed with the elite weapon & elite utility set as the core component & the elite’ themed gameplay. I was also emphasising because the elite weapon & elite utility set are locked to using the elite specializtion line.
On a whole I agree, but do feel like the base gameplay for a Dragonhunter using Longbow & Traps is not were it needs to be. I also feel this is a problem for most Trap builds, which is the ability to relocate foes. This is emphasised even more when survivability is tied into traps.
At the moment with most Trap builds you are reliant on your foes walking into a trap & depending on trap design stay there. Good position & placement helps but you foe is still required to walk into it and I believe this is what is holding trap gameplay back.
Now add the ability to relocate your foe into your traps & playing with traps starts to become much more reliable.
Some ideas & thoughts of relocation:
- Test of Faith – A greater knockback that gives the ability to knock your foe through the whole trap, causing 2 triggers for damage.
- Trap Command: When activated trap pulls foe from the outer ring into the center of the trap (AoE dual ring with an inner ring (damge, trap effect) & a outer ring (pull zone)).
- When triggered trap pulls foe into the center of the trap.
- A bonus effect to Control Skills / Effects that directs the relocation towards the closest trap / into the trap if within range.
At the moment with most Trap builds you are reliant on your foes walking into a trap & depending on trap design stay there. Good position & placement helps but you foe is still required to walk into it and I believe this is what is holding trap gameplay back.
okay I understand your intention but if we look at what we actually have at our disposal I do not think it is that bad.
forced relocates:
GS #5 pulls foes
Hammer #4 has a strong knockback
Shield #5 – yes I said it!
Dragons Maw pulls foes
LB traited knocks back (not far but still enough)
Skills that keep foes in place:
Hammer #5 + #3
Lb #5
scepter #3
SoJ if traited
WoR if traited
2x Signet
Staff #5
indirect relocation
I would go as far as counting GS #2 and Hammer #2 as well. people always say that these abilites are so easy evoidable because you just doge or walk away. Use them to drive foes in the direction you want.
In PvE you need to consider that the daze will act as a root as well.
On top we will be able to keep the enemy perma crippled of we trait/build for it.
Basically our enemies will be forced heavily into stun breaks and stability use because if we got them where we want we can lock them down pretty hard to a point where 1 or two stacks of stability will not help escape.
Dragons Maw + Lb #5 + Hammer# 5 + Ji + Test of Faith. You need three stacks just to hobble away to cross a barrier that hurts you even more all while we can just stick to the enemie by F2 at there location rooting them.
Yes it might be a bit tricky to get them caught in the first place but add in rune of the trpper and they will not see the banish coming.
Your ideas are cool and I take them in a second but it might make DH really OP.
Another cool OP idea:
WoR Trait change: Leap to taget area. relocate all foes in the area into the center of the nearest trap – #rekt
:-)
Another cool OP idea:
WoR Trait change: Leap to taget area. relocate all foes in the area into the center of the nearest trap – #rekt:-)
Love this idea & don’t think it’s really OP. What is does is supply a reliable means of trigging your traps and as a fair bit of a DH Trap build survivability is tied up in traps it provides a reliable means of using this survivability.
And this is what I would like a small amount of reliable forced relocation into the traps within the Dragonhunter specialization. Add this with other weapons, specialization lines & indirect relocation & I couldn’t fault Longbow & Trap gameplay. Everything else as you mention would enhance it.
Another cool OP idea:
WoR Trait change: Leap to taget area. relocate all foes in the area into the center of the nearest trap – #rekt:-)
Love this idea & don’t think it’s really OP. What is does is supply a reliable means of trigging your traps and as a fair bit of a DH Trap build survivability is tied up in traps it provides a reliable means of using this survivability.
And this is what I would like a small amount of reliable forced relocation into the traps within the Dragonhunter specialization. Add this with other weapons, specialization lines & indirect relocation & I couldn’t fault Longbow & Trap gameplay. Everything else as you mention would enhance it.
I can understand and it would be coll but I think this would fall under “cheesy” gameplay which imo anet tries to avoid most of the time because the playerbase will find enough ways to trivialize content, mechanics and what not.
the given example could be exploited in wvwvw to port enemy troops into keeps or into mid air to take lethal falling damage. (pretty sure the revenant relocatinc skill will get some serious cries because of that)