Guild Wars 2

I like my build, the problem is, I feel like it’s the only one that exists, at least for WvW.

I run the generic 0/5/30/30/5 AH/PoV/Emp Might shout build, with a hammer and staff. I have 35% crit chance, 65% crit damage, 18k health, 3k attack, and 3k armor.

I hate not having any real utility. The stability/regen/prot uptime is great, I guess, but being a stat box doesn’t let me really explore the possibilities of the class. I’ve thought about putting 10 into virtues, but it feels required to have altruistic healing, just because it’s so ridiculously good.

I don’t know how to tackle the altruistic healing problem, but maybe I know how to fix the pure of voice debacle…

I run shouts for two reasons, namely:

1. Condition Removal
2. Stability

I would love it if some normally under utilized weapon sets would be able to take on these roles, so that not every guardian has to trait the same way. Stability instead of protection on shield would be great, or maybe condition removal on sword might help.

Any thoughts?

If you stop relying on Altruistic Healing, a slew of new builds will open for you =].

Exactly what Kenzuro said. I run an alternative to the run-of-the-mill AH build, and use it specifically for scouting and roaming in WvW. I’m not of much use in a siege skirmish aside from manning siege equipment or hitting people outside the wall, but I have yet to meet an opponent that has defeated me outright in single combat.

Link to build: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Boonway-alternative-Guardian-build

To elaborate on my one liner. There are a lot of options for builds on a guardian, more so than other classes. From AOE Large Symbol Blind Builds, to Hammer/MaceShield zerg disruptors.

Quite a lot information on our Guardian section here and good pool of talented players. Some youtube channels to note:

http://www.youtube.com/user/RaggokOozo

http://www.youtube.com/user/ChrisDawnheart/

http://www.youtube.com/user/JDHarris66/

A lot more around, search, ask!

I think most professions are pigeon-holed into just a few builds. Mesmer is pretty much shatter or condition-bunker for example. I only have a couple lvl 80s which are mesmer and guardian. I have the other professions at various levels between 20 and 50.

I personally don’t see a lot of variation myself.

I’ve been running 0/10/10/20/30 build in WvW a lot lately solo. I use GS/Sword + Focus and rely on blinds and the vuln on blind trait. Still working around on mixing and matching gear etc but I do really well with that build. And its fun to play imo.

kenzuro.1073:

If you stop relying on Altruistic Healing, a slew of new builds will open for you =].

A slew of new less effective builds you mean.

DeathPanel.8362:

kenzuro.1073:

If you stop relying on Altruistic Healing, a slew of new builds will open for you =].

A slew of new less effective builds you mean.

An AH build is the best hybrid build for a guardian because it has strong defense, decent support, and average damage. There are a lot of builds that are pure builds that out perform AH in either support or damage.

Indure.5410:

DeathPanel.8362:

kenzuro.1073:

If you stop relying on Altruistic Healing, a slew of new builds will open for you =].

A slew of new less effective builds you mean.

An AH build is the best hybrid build for a guardian because it has strong defense, decent support, and average damage. There are a lot of builds that are pure builds that out perform AH in either support or damage.

This

with some more chars.

If all you’re doing in WvW is running with a zerg, which is what you make it sound like, then it doesn’t really matter what you run. There is plenty of utility in slowing, or redirecting the opposing zerg that you can do without that build. I found that more opponents died in my zerg when my Engineer switched to using net turret to keep enemies on our side. Guardian has a decent amount of area denial you could use.

If you’re running around in small groups or alone, then you can use ANY guardian build you want.

That’s what happens when you just follow some guide/opinion without putting any thought into it. Ask yourself “Why do I have trait X?”

You have 30 in Valor for Altruistic Healing. This is a defensive line, and this is a defensive trait.
You have 30 in Honor for Shouts. This is a support/healing line.

Are you defending, healing and supporting well enough? Then that’s great, the build is doing what it is supposed to do.

Guardians have plenty of viable builds and none is more or less effective than another, as they’re situational enough to be different.

If you’re looking for ideas, here’s some:

- Extreme bulkiness help you rush into the enemies lines and the longer you stay alive, more disrupted they become. Altruistic Healing, Selfless Daring with Healing Power, Staff and Shouts works best.
(Valor & Honor)

- Want to help more defensively on Zerg x Zerg battles?
Zeal for Spirit Weapon Mastery / Eternal Spirit, Virtue for Master of Consecrations/Spirit Weapon Duration, Mace/Shield for Protection, Regen, and more projectile protection, and Staff for healing and Line of Warding.
(Zeal & Honor)

- Want to help more offensively on Zerg x Zerg battles?
Try a Symbol build (20~30 Zeal, 30 Honor) with Writ of the Merciful, Writ of Exaltation, Writ of Persistence, and Greatsword/Hammer/Staff.
You deal more damage (and it’s AoE), but you don’t tank. So learn how to Shelter, Renewed Focus and Sigil of Energy to return to safety.
(Zeal & Honor)

There’s plenty of builds you can try… Radiance & Valor/Honor is great for 1v1s and skirmishes as well. Zeal & Valor is also a good balanced and bursty build. Honor & Virtues is awesome for support.

So Valor & Honor isn’t the only build that exists for WvW.

Indure.5410:

DeathPanel.8362:

kenzuro.1073:

If you stop relying on Altruistic Healing, a slew of new builds will open for you =].

A slew of new less effective builds you mean.

An AH build is the best hybrid build for a guardian because it has strong defense, decent support, and average damage. There are a lot of builds that are pure builds that out perform AH in either support or damage.

Meditation build outperforms in damage but it’s far inferior due to the fact that it has little to no support and it’s damage is lackluster compared to some more dedicated classes anyway. I used to run that build when I was new to the game.

There are NO other builds that outperform AH in support.

DeathPanel.8362:

Indure.5410:

DeathPanel.8362:

kenzuro.1073:

If you stop relying on Altruistic Healing, a slew of new builds will open for you =].

A slew of new less effective builds you mean.

An AH build is the best hybrid build for a guardian because it has strong defense, decent support, and average damage. There are a lot of builds that are pure builds that out perform AH in either support or damage.

Meditation build outperforms in damage but it’s far inferior due to the fact that it has little to no support and it’s damage is lackluster compared to some more dedicated classes anyway. I used to run that build when I was new to the game.

There are NO other builds that outperform AH in support.

Just to clarify, meditation builds are much more suited for smaller scale fights due to it’s higher survivability. You are correct on it’s lack of support though.

To give you some perspective, I run this for dungeons and WvW:

10/30/0/30

Fiery Wrath
Blind Exposure, Powerful Blades, Right Hand Strength
Superior Aria, Empowering Might, Pure of Voice

Sword/Shield + Greatsword

Shelter, Signet of Judgement, Stand Your Ground, Save Yourselves, Renewed Focus

Berserker everything, Pack runes, Sigil of Blood on the swords and Sigil of Battle on the shield (though I may swap to Force)

Omnom pies, maintenance oil

Glass cannon? Kind of, but not really. You’ve got 3 on demand blinds, 100% Vigor uptime, on demand condition clearing, on demand blocking, on demand invulnerability, a knockback, and from all the critting you do you regen a pretty significant amount of health. SoJ is worth about 300 armor or so (well, probably more when you’re sitting at base heavy armor numbers like I am) which helps, but you don’t NEED it. You could just as easily swap it for WoR or Retreat or whatever.

I use this very successfully in fractals, dungeons, and WvW. As long as you know where your dodge key is and know when to blind, you will destroy things. Use the sword 1v1, greatsword for AOE, but swap between them regularly to maximize your blind output. It eats conditions off of allies, and gives them might like crazy. Plus you can knockback, so that’ll save a few people from stomps.

If you don’t feel like conditions are a big deal you can switch to Battle Presence but Battle Presence NEVER saved anyone, it just makes you feel good because green numbers.

Anyway, I love it. It does a ton of damage, it could do even more damage if you go 10/20 Valor/Honor instead. And if you die in dungeons with it, it’s because of poor endurance management or blind/block usage.

Stats: 2181 Power
79% Crit (sword)
62% Crit damage
2127 Armor
13805 HP

P.s., you get more on-paper DPS with Strength runes but lose the second fury source which is the primary reason to use Pack as a guardian (to make up for only having fury on SY)

DeathPanel.8362:

There are NO other builds that outperform AH in support.

Not sure this is entirely correct though I think what is worth reminding here is that it’s not really helpful to speak in absolutes. I personally don’t feel that AH is the pinnacle in a support build if that is indeed what you are trying to say. If you use your other heals, dodges, blinds and blocks, you can easily dump it and take those points into other traits that enhance typically lackluster aspects of Guardian support builds.

AH is just Guardian 101. It’s there to get your foot in the door. It doesn’t take too long to get the skill needed to get past it if you want to explore of builds that are more interesting with a different focus.

I am not sure how AH is actually that usefull against really huge zergs. On the other hand, only doing hammer and staff consecrations with ground targeting and cooldown reduction make guardians the best prof in the game in wvw.

DeathPanel.8362:

There are NO other builds that outperform AH in support.

Really? 30 Valor gives almost no direct support abilities at all. Logically speaking, how can you justify this as the best support build when half your trait allocation goes to nothing but personal survivability . A 30 Honor/ 30 Virtues is a much better trait allocation for support. Even 30 Radiance arguably provides more support than 30 Valor.

Indure.5410:

Really? 30 Valor gives almost no direct support abilities at all. Logically speaking, how can you justify this as the best support build when half your trait allocation goes to nothing but personal survivability . A 30 Honor/ 30 Virtues is a much better trait allocation for support. Even 30 Radiance arguably provides more support than 30 Valor.

AH (and almost everything in the Valor line) is not support. Don’t feed trolls.

innocent ouarior.1954:

I am not sure how AH is actually that usefull against really huge zergs. On the other hand, only doing hammer and staff consecrations with ground targeting and cooldown reduction make guardians the best prof in the game in wvw.

That’s really subjective… I see Guardians being one of the most useful when fully built to Projectile Protection as these are a huge part of the damage you take in battles, and these skills aren’t limited to the usual 5-player AoE limit, making Guardians great for this.

For anything else though (tanking, damage, support and even balanced builds) I find other professions better than a Guardian…

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

There are NO other builds that outperform AH in support.

Not sure this is entirely correct though I think what is worth reminding here is that it’s not really helpful to speak in absolutes. I personally don’t feel that AH is the pinnacle in a support build if that is indeed what you are trying to say. If you use your other heals, dodges, blinds and blocks, you can easily dump it and take those points into other traits that enhance typically lackluster aspects of Guardian support builds.

AH is just Guardian 101. It’s there to get your foot in the door. It doesn’t take too long to get the skill needed to get past it if you want to explore of builds that are more interesting with a different focus.

It’s helpful to speak in absolutes when the reality is in absolutes.

There are no builds for guardians that outperform the AH build in support period.

AH build is guardian 101, 201, 301, …8901. There’s simply no other viable build for guardians that has greater overall effectiveness.

I have to disagree with you there, DeathPanel. I’ve been running a non-AH build since beta that’s made parties used to AH guardians ask how what I do is even possible. Looking at it in perspective, I can either get extra personal healing via AH, or….

• 33% uptime on every boon on the game for myself, along with permanent vigor, retaliation, swiftness, and 10-20 stacks of might
• 33% party-wide uptime on Stability
• 100% party-wide uptime on Retaliation
• 66% party-wide uptime on Swiftness
• 5-15 party-wide stacks of Might
• Potential for 100% uptime on Protection in combat, not even dropping off when using other hammer skills or swapping to another weapon
• Ability to swap traits to improved consecrations and spirit weapon duration for anti-projectile work whenever necessary, without a respec
• Near-complete party-wide immunity to everything that can impair movement, as well as damaging conditions
• An extra 6-10% damage most of the time
• 100 extra health per dodgeroll for any ally affected (depending on what AH build you’re comparing to)

The way I see it, that’s better support than AH could provide.

DeathPanel.8362:

It’s helpful to speak in absolutes when the reality is in absolutes.

There are no builds for guardians that outperform the AH build in support period.

Respectfully, your experience is not enough to solidify this as a fact, nor does it lend itself to an objective discussion. You may want to consider that your view isn’t absolute based on the feedback of other players who do not agree with your opinion.

AH itself doesn’t support the team at all and therefore, if you want to have a discussion about the best support build, one would have a very simple case to argue it wouldn’t include AH.

Kharel Arhew.1437:

I have to disagree with you there, DeathPanel. I’ve been running a non-AH build since beta that’s made parties used to AH guardians ask how what I do is even possible. Looking at it in perspective, I can either get extra personal healing via AH, or….

• 33% uptime on every boon on the game for myself, along with permanent vigor, retaliation, swiftness, and 10-20 stacks of might
• 33% party-wide uptime on Stability
• 100% party-wide uptime on Retaliation
• 66% party-wide uptime on Swiftness
• 5-15 party-wide stacks of Might
• Potential for 100% uptime on Protection in combat, not even dropping off when using other hammer skills or swapping to another weapon
• Ability to swap traits to improved consecrations and spirit weapon duration for anti-projectile work whenever necessary, without a respec
• Near-complete party-wide immunity to everything that can impair movement, as well as damaging conditions
• An extra 6-10% damage most of the time
• 100 extra health per dodgeroll for any ally affected (depending on what AH build you’re comparing to)

The way I see it, that’s better support than AH could provide.

Can you create a link to that build? I would be interested in trying it

DeathenShada.6397:

Can you create a link to that build? I would be interested in trying it

I linked it earlier in the thread, but here it is again: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Boonway-alternative-Guardian-build.

It doesn’t pigeonhole you into any specific weapons; heck it doesn’t even really pigeonhole you into a specific gear set, though I have a set that I do like greatly. It can even use every single stat of Celestial gear effectively, with at least one 1:1 scaling ratio on condition damage and healing power each.

Kharel Arhew.1437:

DeathenShada.6397:

Can you create a link to that build? I would be interested in trying it

I linked it earlier in the thread, but here it is again: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Boonway-alternative-Guardian-build.

It doesn’t pigeonhole you into any specific weapons; heck it doesn’t even really pigeonhole you into a specific gear set, though I have a set that I do like greatly. It can even use every single stat of Celestial gear effectively, with at least one 1:1 scaling ratio on condition damage and healing power each.

Alright thanks for the link

tbh i don’t think AH is support at all. It’s more selfish really. While you are indeed giving boons too your allies, that’s all you’re doing. I prefer more a guard that does ground-targeting consecrations, at least wall of reflection. That thing saves lives! :o

DeathPanel.8362:

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

There are NO other builds that outperform AH in support.

Not sure this is entirely correct though I think what is worth reminding here is that it’s not really helpful to speak in absolutes. I personally don’t feel that AH is the pinnacle in a support build if that is indeed what you are trying to say. If you use your other heals, dodges, blinds and blocks, you can easily dump it and take those points into other traits that enhance typically lackluster aspects of Guardian support builds.

AH is just Guardian 101. It’s there to get your foot in the door. It doesn’t take too long to get the skill needed to get past it if you want to explore of builds that are more interesting with a different focus.

It’s helpful to speak in absolutes when the reality is in absolutes.

There are no builds for guardians that outperform the AH build in support period.

AH build is guardian 101, 201, 301, …8901. There’s simply no other viable build for guardians that has greater overall effectiveness.

The entire valor tree should be left out of a support build, imo.

I would never ever choose AH in a build meant to support my teammates, ever, I don’t need it to stay alive, my teammates get nothing out of it, simple as that.

It’s true that AH does not directly effect your team mates. However, if you are playing a shouter (which is support), then AH benefits from it greatly. Everyone should be able to agree with that.

Having AH as a shouter may make your more survivable than other non-AH shout builds. That survivability is a form of support in that you soak up damage that may have hit a team mate instead. Keep in mind that AH comes with 300 extra toughness over a build not using any points in that trait line. You can even snag “Strength In Numbers” on your way to picking up AH.

Anyway saying that AH is the only support build is a joke. Likewise, saying AH is not a support build at all is equally stilly.

Sigh… there is a pretty simple answer to all of this. Just try out different builds. Some people are just plain bad at dodging so AH is like a must for them.

Personally, I don’t run AH build cause I believe you sacrifice too many trait points in the process to make it worth while. The traits you get in that trait line other than AH are pretty bad compared to the others. They are useful to some extent, but not nearly as good as the others.

@juno

I don’t deny your logic, however, following the same line of thought I can say that Zeal is great for support as well.
The faster I kill the enemy, the less damage they deal to my teammates and therefore the better support. It’s as if my teammates had more health since there’s 1 less enemy in the field.

So, to avoid arguments like these, it’s easier to classify them in how they affect your role, directly or indirectly.

While AH is great for survivability, like many have pointed already, it becomes a waste of points if you’re not really using it.
If you run always with a group of 5~10 and you rarely/never engage in direct combat as the first runner, you probably won’t need it’s healing unless the enemy has taken your first line and is moving towards the center of your group.
In this situation (which is fairly common if you don’t rush) you’d be better off without AH and some traits more support-focused.

There’s no secret to this, pick the right stuff for the right action. A bunker playing support would be sub-effective, as is a supporter playing tank.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

It’s helpful to speak in absolutes when the reality is in absolutes.

There are no builds for guardians that outperform the AH build in support period.

Respectfully, your experience is not enough to solidify this as a fact, nor does it lend itself to an objective discussion. You may want to consider that your view isn’t absolute based on the feedback of other players who do not agree with your opinion.

AH itself doesn’t support the team at all and therefore, if you want to have a discussion about the best support build, one would have a very simple case to argue it wouldn’t include AH.

Where do you get off telling me whether my experience is enough or not? You don’t know anything about my experience.

I said AH build, not AH the trait. AH build is built around support. There are many variations on the AH build it’s just simply known as AH build because it’s the trait that is the most memorable in that build.

Kharel Arhew.1437:

I have to disagree with you there, DeathPanel. I’ve been running a non-AH build since beta that’s made parties used to AH guardians ask how what I do is even possible. Looking at it in perspective, I can either get extra personal healing via AH, or….

• 33% uptime on every boon on the game for myself, along with permanent vigor, retaliation, swiftness, and 10-20 stacks of might
• 33% party-wide uptime on Stability
• 100% party-wide uptime on Retaliation
• 66% party-wide uptime on Swiftness
• 5-15 party-wide stacks of Might
• Potential for 100% uptime on Protection in combat, not even dropping off when using other hammer skills or swapping to another weapon
• Ability to swap traits to improved consecrations and spirit weapon duration for anti-projectile work whenever necessary, without a respec
• Near-complete party-wide immunity to everything that can impair movement, as well as damaging conditions
• An extra 6-10% damage most of the time
• 100 extra health per dodgeroll for any ally affected (depending on what AH build you’re comparing to)

The way I see it, that’s better support than AH could provide.

I read your build and was dissapointed.

Almost nothing in your build cannot be done by an AH build and more.

The boon duration of your build comes from gear and points in virtues, which variations of AH can do anyway. (Empowering might, superior aria, all the virtue line traits in your build can be taken by AH making your central premise of the build being boons moot.)

The only thing you have over AH build variations is arguably being able to chain retaliation, but that requires you to be killing things to trigger renewed justice so it’s not consistent in pvp or wvw. Also, retaliation is not useful in end game instances where mobs can 1-2 hit you and dodging is more important anyway.

Meanwhile you have neither Meditation nor AH to heal yourself with aside from the regen from virtue and your base heal, which decreases your survival greatly.

Also, you have 30% less crit damage and 300 less toughness which comes from taking the valor tree(AH build) not to mention the traits from that tree.

All in all it’s a viable alternative but please don’t pretend it’s somehow better than AH, because frankly it’s not.

DeathPanel.8362:

I read your build and was dissapointed.

Almost nothing in your build cannot be done by an AH build and more.

The boon duration of your build comes from gear and points in virtues, which variations of AH can do anyway. (Empowering might, superior aria, all the virtue line traits in your build can be taken by AH making your central premise of the build being boons moot.)

The only thing you have over AH build variations is arguably being able to chain retaliation, but that requires you to be killing things to trigger renewed justice so it’s not consistent in pvp or wvw. Also, retaliation is not useful in end game instances where mobs can 1-2 hit you and dodging is more important anyway.

Meanwhile you have neither Meditation nor AH to heal yourself with aside from the regen from virtue and your base heal, which decreases your survival greatly.

Also, you have 30% less crit damage and 300 less toughness which comes from taking the valor tree(AH build) not to mention the traits from that tree.

All in all it’s a viable alternative but please don’t pretend it’s somehow better than AH, because frankly it’s not.

The thing you run into when you run AH is that you can only run deep into the Honor line or the Virtues line, not both. If you run the Honor line, you lose boon duration; say goodbye to perma-swiftness, infinite retaliation and vigor, significantly superior Stability uptime, and a lot of extra might stacks. If you run deep into the Virtues line, you’ll need 10 points in Honor anyway for reduced shout cooldowns—but that eats up most or all of your trait points. Say goodbye to your reduced heal cooldown, might to your party when you crit, healing on dodge, more vitality, a bit of extra damage for a few seconds after dodging, half of your condition removal, AoE blind on VoJ active, and VoJ refresh on kill.

Both Honor and Virtues have extremely powerful supportive options; Valor keeps you alive a bit longer to heal through damage that you probably shouldn’t be taking in the first place. As for not having enough survivability, I have Absolute Resolution for improved VoR passive, 33% minimum regeneration uptime, extra healing power (30 in Honor; or if you take 30 in Honor as your AH build I have far better regeneration duration). My main heal heals for over 10k health every 30 seconds, which an AH build that invests in virtues can’t hope to match (unless you drop improved shout cooldowns).

Put simply, when you take AH you automatically tie up 30 points of your traits to improve your personal survivability. The traits in the Valor line (aside from AH) are nothing to write home about, other than the 25-point minor. I and the Guardian friends I play with long ago made the decision to trade in that extra bit of healing for mobility—and, in the process, we didn’t actually lose all that much healing.

Kharel Arhew.1437:

The thing you run into when you run AH is that you can only run deep into the Honor line or the Virtues line, not both. If you run the Honor line, you lose boon duration; say goodbye to perma-swiftness, infinite retaliation and vigor, significantly superior Stability uptime, and a lot of extra might stacks. If you run deep into the Virtues line, you’ll need 10 points in Honor anyway for reduced shout cooldowns—but that eats up most or all of your trait points. Say goodbye to your reduced heal cooldown, might to your party when you crit, healing on dodge, more vitality, a bit of extra damage for a few seconds after dodging, half of your condition removal, AoE blind on VoJ active, and VoJ refresh on kill.

Wrong.

You can have 20 in honor and still have empowering might and reduced shout cooldown as well as 20 in virtue for the boon duration and 30 in valor for the AH. Your examples are not valid.

And btw you can’t have 100% retaliation unless under ideal circumstances with your build as I’ve already pointed out in the previous post.

I’ve also pointed out retaliation is not useful anyway in end game instances and you can’t keep it up in wvw or pvp because that requires you to be dealing the killing blow on players to trigger renewed justice.

Your build while not horrible is simply not as good as AH, no matter how you try to spin it.

In the best case scenario it’s basically the same support as AH with longer retaliation but vastly inferior survivability.

I’m not going to argue with you, I’m just going to state a few facts as I have them.

• This build was never intended for sPvP, and isn’t even possible to duplicate there.
• I don’t require killing blows to keep up retaliation, even in WvW; I get 9.5 seconds from Stand Your Ground every 24 seconds (39.5% uptime), 19 seconds every 48 seconds from Save Yourselves (39.5% uptime), and trigger of Virtue of Justice on cooldown (no kill refresh) nets me 5.7 seconds every 24 seconds (23.75% uptime). That’s a sum total of 102% uptime, truncating the decimal. Without weapon skills, combo fields, or activating my other virtues, which should obviously be done as needed.
• I end most fights with 30 seconds or more of retaliation left over.
• I go down on average about once per fractal run (3 fractals + maw).

Kharel Arhew.1437:

I’m not going to argue with you, I’m just going to state a few facts as I have them.

• This build was never intended for sPvP, and isn’t even possible to duplicate there.
• I don’t require killing blows to keep up retaliation, even in WvW; I get 9.5 seconds from Stand Your Ground every 24 seconds (39.5% uptime), 19 seconds every 48 seconds from Save Yourselves (39.5% uptime), and trigger of Virtue of Justice on cooldown (no kill refresh) nets me 5.7 seconds every 24 seconds (23.75% uptime). That’s a sum total of 102% uptime, truncating the decimal. Without weapon skills, combo fields, or activating my other virtues, which should obviously be done as needed.
• I end most fights with 30 seconds or more of retaliation left over.
• I go down on average about once per fractal run (3 fractals + maw).

Again, retaliation is not useful in dungeons. Mobs have a bazillion hp and the retaliation dmg they take is completely trivial and high lvl fotm mobs will 1-2 shot you so dodging is the norm anyway.

The only conceivable place where it is useful is in pvp and if you can keep it up without renewed justice then why would you bother putting the 15 points into radiance for Renewed Justice? That seems to be a colossal waste if you don’t need it for 100% uptime on retaliation.

Also, since 0 0 30 20 20 variation of AH only has a 5% difference in boon duration to your build it can also keep retaliation at 100% using the right runes so your build’s boon advantage for 100% retaliation goes out the window completely.

Meanwhile, you have 30% less crit damage, 300 less toughness, and no meditation or AH to heal yourself which means your personal survivability takes a big hit not to mention your dps.

Like I said before, this build is not bad but it’s simply not as good as AH. This is not just my personal opinion, it’s a statistical fact given all the data presented here.

Musty.3148:

Indure.5410:

DeathPanel.8362:

kenzuro.1073:

If you stop relying on Altruistic Healing, a slew of new builds will open for you =].

A slew of new less effective builds you mean.

An AH build is the best hybrid build for a guardian because it has strong defense, decent support, and average damage. There are a lot of builds that are pure builds that out perform AH in either support or damage.

This

with some more chars.

AH builds are nice for support, but try running a mediation build. I go 20/0/30/20/0, with the faster meditation recharge / meditation skills heal perks and using JI, Smite Condition, and Contemplations of Purity not only do conditions just fall off my like water on hydrophobic sand, each meditation heals me for 2k. Then there’s the ability to convert all conditions to boons, and on top of all that 2 out of 3 of those meditations are AoE attacks. I can see the appeal for AH builds, but a good meditation build is way scarier and far less boon reliant for damage / sustain.

It should be mentioned also that the meditation build I have is a mostly offensive / personal survival build, and doesn’t give much in the ways of boons to allies (I do use Empowering Might since it gives me a stack of might when I crit as well, but you can change that out if your crit chance isn’t very high.) Also I use Maintenance Oils and Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Steak Stew for might on dodge and increased endurance regen. Here’s a quick make up of what my build entails…granted it has the spvp stats, but it’s not too far off the mark as to what my stats are.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUEQNAS7flUgiDnGyNEf4ESlC8JewUQgw31DIiiaIA;TEBA1yvEOJ1StlyJKnMOJcy6kzJpTrLGFcqYTyDDA

DeathPanel.8362:

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

It’s helpful to speak in absolutes when the reality is in absolutes.

There are no builds for guardians that outperform the AH build in support period.

Respectfully, your experience is not enough to solidify this as a fact, nor does it lend itself to an objective discussion. You may want to consider that your view isn’t absolute based on the feedback of other players who do not agree with your opinion.

AH itself doesn’t support the team at all and therefore, if you want to have a discussion about the best support build, one would have a very simple case to argue it wouldn’t include AH.

Where do you get off telling me whether my experience is enough or not? You don’t know anything about my experience.

I said AH build, not AH the trait. AH build is built around support. There are many variations on the AH build it’s just simply known as AH build because it’s the trait that is the most memorable in that build.

I answered you with respect the first time, you reciprocate with an aggressive response. The tone of this post will be more aligned to your apparent favoured tone of communication.

Frankly, I get off easy telling you your experience isn’t enough because your ego isn’t a replacement for an omnipotent and authoritative view of the game. Making absolute statements that are obviously subjective and out of context brings into question your background and experience.

There are builds that outperform the AH “whatever you want to call it” as support because the necessity and effectiveness of AH are not absolutes in every situation. It would actually be stupid to use AH in a build (including support builds) for any situation where you don’t need heals above and beyond all your other intrinsic damage mitigation tools.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

It’s helpful to speak in absolutes when the reality is in absolutes.

There are no builds for guardians that outperform the AH build in support period.

Respectfully, your experience is not enough to solidify this as a fact, nor does it lend itself to an objective discussion. You may want to consider that your view isn’t absolute based on the feedback of other players who do not agree with your opinion.

AH itself doesn’t support the team at all and therefore, if you want to have a discussion about the best support build, one would have a very simple case to argue it wouldn’t include AH.

Where do you get off telling me whether my experience is enough or not? You don’t know anything about my experience.

I said AH build, not AH the trait. AH build is built around support. There are many variations on the AH build it’s just simply known as AH build because it’s the trait that is the most memorable in that build.

I answered you with respect the first time, you reciprocate with an aggressive response. The tone of this post will be more aligned to your apparent favoured tone of communication.

Frankly, I get off easy telling you your experience isn’t enough because your ego isn’t a replacement for an omnipotent and authoritative view of the game.

Despite your self-promotion as a person that can speak about Guardian builds with absolute authority, your more objective Guardian gamefellows aren’t sold. Therefore, my original reply doesn’t change. There are builds that outperform the AH “whatever you want to call it” as support because the necessity and effectiveness of AH are not absolutes in every situation.

Oh please, what does “tone” have to do with facts and evidence?

I have already presented and backed up my ideas, all you can do is complain about my “tone”.

It’s clear who’s lacking in experience here. (ie you)

If you actually presented facts and evidence, tone wouldn’t be relevant. Here is a nice fact:

If you think AH is the pinnacle of all support builds, you do it because you don’t have the skills to use or understand the intrinsic damage mitigation to dump AH when it’s not necessary.

Obtena.7952:

If you actually presented facts and evidence, tone wouldn’t be relevant. Here is a nice fact:

Anyone that thinks AH is the pinnacle of all support builds does so because they don’t have the skills to use or understand their intrinsic damage mitigation to dump it when they don’t need it.

That’s not a fact. That’s just a random useless rant with implied personal attack thinly veiled inside.

I pointed to data on the traits of the build and fully articulated my points when I discussed why AH is better than the “Boonway” build, whereas all you’ve done so far is complain about my “tone” and contributed nothing to the discussion except personal attacks.

You claimed AH was the best for support build absolutely. Regardless of whatever evidence you think you provided to support that ‘fact’, your biggest problem is that practical experience of other players proves it wrong. Ignoring that doesn’t validate your claim.

We know there are support builds that don’t need AH and be even more supportive than one that uses AH. That’s not theory; people actually have these builds. They are better because they don’t need AH in addition to the heals we already have intrinsically. That overhealing is wasteful stuff and if it’s waste, it’s certainly not the best.

Obtena.7952:

You claimed AH was the best for support build absolutely. Regardless of whatever evidence you think you provided to support that ‘fact’, your biggest problem is that practical experience of other players proves it wrong. Ignoring that doesn’t validate your claim.

We know there are support builds that don’t need AH and be even more supportive than one that uses AH. That’s not theory; people actually have these builds. They are better because they don’t need AH in addition to the heals we already have intrinsically. That overhealing is wasteful stuff and if it’s waste, it’s certainly not the best.

So far you have not provided a single shred of evidence whereas I’ve already provided reasoning as well as based my argument on data for traits to support my claims.

If your experience is soooo vast and mine is so lacking then how about you provide a build that exceeds AH build in effectiveness for supporting role so we can all see for ourselves how right you are?

If you can provide the data as well as a valid argument for a build that exceeds the AH build, not only will I agree with you I will be the first in line to respec.

Either that or you can continue your trend of making unsubstianted rant posts filled with personal attacks.

Super derailed topic got super derailed.

We can all agree that Altruistic Healing is a great trait. However, experiment with other builds, look at your group composition in your havoc group or camp roaming group and find ways to make your build meld with those of your teammates.

Once you realize that WvW is not about getting that loot bag, that kill, stomp things it will be so much better.

Do what you want, how you want, whatever , enjoy how you play.

DeathPanel.8362:

… how about you provide a build that exceeds AH build in effectiveness for supporting role so we can all see for ourselves how right you are?

Remove trait points in Valour 30, put them into Honour 30. This is one example of many. Any build that replaces a trait that gives no support with one that gives any will meet your challenge. I don’t see how overhealing yourself is going to fit within the best support build.

DeathPanel.8362:

Again, retaliation is not useful in dungeons. Mobs have a bazillion hp and the retaliation dmg they take is completely trivial and high lvl fotm mobs will 1-2 shot you so dodging is the norm anyway.

You realize your arguments that you provided are pretty flawed? High lvl FOTM mobs will 1-2 shot you so retaliation is useless yet healing through AH is somehow almighty? Tell me, how do you heal with AH when you get 1-2 shotted? lol.

I’m not going to label what build is ‘best’ and what isn’t since each build is suited to a specific role and playstyle. Certainly, AH is a well rounded build but it is clearly not the best at everything. Also, I think it is pretty obvious to everyone that the renewed justice build is mainly for open world PvE so I don’t see why you keep calling him out on it for sPvP and WvW. Also, I can tell you right now that open-world PvE farming (groups of trash mobs) with renewed justice is vastly superior than AH since that is what it is intended for.

Woo havent posted on the Guardian forums for a while… oh the drama lol

The AH build is a crutch build that is the best all rounded and versatile build. Sure there are more specialised builds which will perform one aspect better, but the AH build is good in all aspects.

Once people learn or develop yheir own playstyle, they will generally create a build that suits them.

So objectively speaking. There is no best build. From one perspective the AH build is great because it offers everything. On another, the specialised build will be better for that person as it fills the role of how he plays.

Both are right.

Though personally i have tried MANY builds and i still prefer the AH build because of versatility (i like multitasking). But thats just me

There is no one build to rule them all.

KensaiZen.3740:

The AH build is a crutch build that is the best all rounded and versatile build. Sure there are more specialised builds which will perform one aspect better, but the AH build is good in all aspects.

So objectively speaking. There is no best build. From one perspective the AH build is great because it offers everything. On another, the specialised build will be better for that person as it fills the role of how he plays.

Both are right.

Though personally i have tried MANY builds and i still prefer the AH build because of versatility (i like multitasking). But thats just me

But Altruistic Healing builds aren’t versatile.
Altruistic Healing is for defense/survivability, and it excels at that.

There’s nothing in Altruistic Healing provides for damage or support, direct or indirectly.

But that’s just 30 points of our 70.

We can say we get to pick 2 or 3 main roles from Damage (Zeal, Radiance), Support (Honor, Virtue, Zeal), Survivability (Valor, Honor) and other minor roles such as Control, Conditions & Utilities.

It’s a no brainer that a Support Build with little/no points in Radiance/Valor are better.
Same for a Damage build with little/no points in Virtue/Valor.

But for some reason, Guardians who don’t try to come up with their own builds and just follow some guide or someone else’s opinions get stuck in the “there’s no other way to play!” because they didn’t think up all their traits/gear from scratch.
GW2 does an excellent job in having various viable builds, better than any game I’ve played, and if they start thinking for themselves they’d notice there’s plenty of options and playstyles available to them.

As long as people don’t try to use the wrong build for the wrong job, they can’t go wrong.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

… how about you provide a build that exceeds AH build in effectiveness for supporting role so we can all see for ourselves how right you are?

Remove trait points in Valour 30, put them into Honour 30. This is one example of many. Any build that replaces a trait that gives no support with one that gives any will meet your challenge. I don’t see how overhealing yourself is going to fit within the best support build.

Having 30 points in valour is not mutually exclusive with having 30 points in Honour. There are AH variations that have both.

You have yet to provide an actual build in which it would have more support than an AH variant.

How about showing us your “experience” and my lack thereof by actually doing so since that’s your central premise of all your posts? I’ve already called you out on this many times and you’ve failed to deliver.

FYI. There’s no such thing as overhealing yourself. In end game dungeons and wvw zerg fights or sieges you can easily get tons of consistent damage stacked on you.