Guild Wars 2

Tinboy.7954:

DeathPanel.8362:

Again, retaliation is not useful in dungeons. Mobs have a bazillion hp and the retaliation dmg they take is completely trivial and high lvl fotm mobs will 1-2 shot you so dodging is the norm anyway.

You realize your arguments that you provided are pretty flawed? High lvl FOTM mobs will 1-2 shot you so retaliation is useless yet healing through AH is somehow almighty? Tell me, how do you heal with AH when you get 1-2 shotted? lol.

You realize you sound like you don’t know much about FOTM?

Plenty of fights are prolonged in FOTM. You can’t dodge all attacks since you are limited by your endurance and the sheer number of mobs attacking. You WILL be hit regardless and AH means the difference between being killed because your main heal is on cooldown and surviving.

All you people are so contrarian because you are just disgruntled that cookie cutter builds work and your own little rogue builds don’t work as well.

There’s a REASON cookie cutter builds work, because they’ve been tried and tested in real gameplay by the community and the consensus is that they are the best choices.

You are free to provide a better support build so we can all see. As I’ve stated before I’ll be first in line to respec if there’s actual convincing evidence of a build that is better than AH for supporting roles.

DeathPanel.8362:

How about showing us your “experience” and my lack thereof by actually doing so since that’s your central premise of all your posts? I’ve already called you out on this many times and you’ve failed to deliver.

AH Variants
0/0/30/0/0
- Extra toughness for the Guardian and reduced CD on Shield skills.
- Extra toughness for allies around.
- Reduced Meditations CD, only Merciful Intervention help allies.
+ Other lines’ effects

Non-AH Variants
30/0/0/30/10
- Symbols cause Vulnerability, Heal allies, are Larger, deal more damage.
- Spirit Weapons last 50% more, lower CDs and aren’t destroyed when using skills.
[Optionally]
- Master of Consecrations, Empowering Might, Shouts reduced CD and removes a CD.

0/30/0/30/10
- Virtue of Justice spam and grants Might.
- Empowering Might with Right Handed Strength for better proc chances.
- Battle Presence, Shouts enhancements, Reviving Traits or Retaliation Traits.
- Master of Consecrations or Unscathed Contender for PvE.

0/0/10/30/30
- Battle Presence with Absolute Resolution.
- Shouts enhancements, or Symbol healing for Mace/Staff.
- Ranged and longer lasting Consecrations.

- Can an AH build provide better damage, Projectile Protection and Symbol enhancements or Shout enhancements than 30/0/0/30/10?
If you consider projectile protection lasting 50% less and recharging 20% longer as better, or the projectile reflection having 10 extra seconds downtime, then yes.

- Can an AH build provide better AoE healing and boons than 0/0/10/30/30?
If you consider a weaker Virtue of Resolve better than a stronger Virtue of Resolve, and no boons when using Virtues better than extra boons, then yes.

- Can an AH build provide better boons and damage than 0/30/0/30/10?
If you consider Empowering Might with 15% less chance to proc, and 30% critical damage being better than 15%~ extra critical chance and 10~15% extra raw damage, then yes.

DeathPanel.8362:

FYI. There’s no such thing as overhealing yourself. In end game dungeons and wvw zerg fights or sieges you can easily get tons of consistent damage stacked on you.

Only if you’re playing tank/bunker in the front lines, or if you’re not skilled enough.
Skilled players can learn how to stay out of harm’s way and focus their actions in something else than healing themselves.

DeathPanel.8362:

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

… how about you provide a build that exceeds AH build in effectiveness for supporting role so we can all see for ourselves how right you are?

Remove trait points in Valour 30, put them into Honour 30. This is one example of many. Any build that replaces a trait that gives no support with one that gives any will meet your challenge. I don’t see how overhealing yourself is going to fit within the best support build.

Having 30 points in valour is not mutually exclusive with having 30 points in Honour. There are AH variations that have both.

Seems you misunderstood my post. ‘Remove’ is a key word in there. The builds that remove the points from Valour and put them into anything else that gives support are better support builds because 1) you spend more points in supportive traits and 2) you don’t waste any points in non-supportive traits , i.e., AH. I doubt I can be more clear than this. If you don’t get it, then I don’t really have much more to add.

Perhaps overheal is the wrong word, though it can happen. Simply put, I use my other inherent damage mitigation tools less If I have AH. There is much to be improved upon in any build that substitutes the use of elements that are very effective and free with other elements that are less effective and costly. I have a difficult time convincing myself that a build that does this is a ‘best’ anything build.

DeathPanel.8362:

Tinboy.7954:

DeathPanel.8362:

Again, retaliation is not useful in dungeons. Mobs have a bazillion hp and the retaliation dmg they take is completely trivial and high lvl fotm mobs will 1-2 shot you so dodging is the norm anyway.

You realize your arguments that you provided are pretty flawed? High lvl FOTM mobs will 1-2 shot you so retaliation is useless yet healing through AH is somehow almighty? Tell me, how do you heal with AH when you get 1-2 shotted? lol.

You realize you sound like you don’t know much about FOTM?

Plenty of fights are prolonged in FOTM. You can’t dodge all attacks since you are limited by your endurance and the sheer number of mobs attacking. You WILL be hit regardless and AH means the difference between being killed because your main heal is on cooldown and surviving.

All you people are so contrarian because you are just disgruntled that cookie cutter builds work and your own little rogue builds don’t work as well.

There’s a REASON cookie cutter builds work, because they’ve been tried and tested in real gameplay by the community and the consensus is that they are the best choices.

You are free to provide a better support build so we can all see. As I’ve stated before I’ll be first in line to respec if there’s actual convincing evidence of a build that is better than AH for supporting roles.

Lol, buddy. I know how FOTM works. But my knowledge of FOTM doesn’t even matter in this case cause all I did was use your logic. It is either retaliation works well along with AH, or neither works. Do you even read what you type?

Since you didn’t get it the first time, I guess I’ll have to spell it out for you. Your argument was that retaliation is trivial because mobs 1-2 shot you meaning you only get a couple reflect off. From this, if you die in 1-2 shots anyways. How does a lot of mini heals help in any way if you still get 1-2 shot; it is not like the mini heals will do an instant 10k heal.

Basically, it is either retaliation works well along with AH or neither works since retaliation is based off of how many times you get hit.

Danicco.3568:

KensaiZen.3740:

The AH build is a crutch build that is the best all rounded and versatile build. Sure there are more specialised builds which will perform one aspect better, but the AH build is good in all aspects.

So objectively speaking. There is no best build. From one perspective the AH build is great because it offers everything. On another, the specialised build will be better for that person as it fills the role of how he plays.

Both are right.

Though personally i have tried MANY builds and i still prefer the AH build because of versatility (i like multitasking). But thats just me

But Altruistic Healing builds aren’t versatile.
Altruistic Healing is for defense/survivability, and it excels at that.

There’s nothing in Altruistic Healing provides for damage or support, direct or indirectly.

But that’s just 30 points of our 70.

We can say we get to pick 2 or 3 main roles from Damage (Zeal, Radiance), Support (Honor, Virtue, Zeal), Survivability (Valor, Honor) and other minor roles such as Control, Conditions & Utilities.

It’s a no brainer that a Support Build with little/no points in Radiance/Valor are better.
Same for a Damage build with little/no points in Virtue/Valor.

But for some reason, Guardians who don’t try to come up with their own builds and just follow some guide or someone else’s opinions get stuck in the “there’s no other way to play!” because they didn’t think up all their traits/gear from scratch.
GW2 does an excellent job in having various viable builds, better than any game I’ve played, and if they start thinking for themselves they’d notice there’s plenty of options and playstyles available to them.

As long as people don’t try to use the wrong build for the wrong job, they can’t go wrong.

You are not looking at it as a whole. As the AH build allows for fantastic survival and team support via boons. This allows you to equipt damage orientated accessories and armour/runes.

My guardian runs the usual 30/30/10 armoured with melandru runes and uses ALL beserker jewelry. Enough damage and support for any situation.

Also because of flexibility of the AH build. All it requires is gear change to specialise more (currently have 4 armour sets on me at all times)

I can mighty blow bunkers for 3k and lights for 5k a pop. It is very versatile.

KensaiZen.3740:

You are not looking at it as a whole. As the AH build allows for fantastic survival and team support via boons. This allows you to equipt damage orientated accessories and armour/runes.

My guardian runs the usual 30/30/10 armoured with melandru runes and uses ALL beserker jewelry. Enough damage and support for any situation.

Also because of flexibility of the AH build. All it requires is gear change to specialise more (currently have 4 armour sets on me at all times)

I can mighty blow bunkers for 3k and lights for 5k a pop. It is very versatile.

I also have strong survival with my build (though not what I’d consider fantastic, I can definitely lead a charge in WvW without worrying about death), can land Mighty Blow on squishies for 5k (I’ve seen it go as high as 6k, but that’s not in reliable circumstances), and I provide a larger number of boons and more condition removal (3 conditions removed per VoR pop) for longer.

The build I run can also use any weapon with equal effectiveness (since I don’t have to even think about whether or not the weapon might provide a boon that could heal me or not), can use whatever stat set you want (it makes good use of every stat in the game, with the caveat that Guardians don’t do particularly impressive condition damage in any build), and I’m not tied to allies to enhance my personal survivability, making it a very strong roaming build in WvW.

It’s a different build, with a different playstyle and goals. I trade a little survivability for more group support, condition removal, and boon duration. Damage stays about the same. Flexibility is about the same.

KensaiZen.3740:

My guardian runs the usual 30/30/10 armoured with melandru runes and uses ALL beserker jewelry. Enough damage and support for any situation.

“Enough” damage and support is relative.
Check the builds I posted above, they don’t run AH and their group value are much better than what any AH build can offer.

At the cost of your survivability, which can be helped with various other skills, you bring much more to a group.

In a group, a Zeal/Honor/Virtue – Symbol/Spirit Weapon Guardian can help with awesome Projectile Protection (Shield of the Avenger, Wall of Reflection, Shield of Absorption) and great AoE healing (Symbols, Empower, Orb, Bow of Truth).

That’s some insane damage mitigation here. Not only all non-ground ranged attacks are nullified (these skills don’t seem to be limited to the 5 targets AoE limit), but they’re still providing AoE healing for the attacks that are getting through.

This is great for those battles where there’s that “ranged” line that people are too scared to cross, or for turtles/sieges in general.

For an AH Guardian to provide the same level of support, it would require at least 2 Guardians for this.

KensaiZen.3740:

Also because of flexibility of the AH build. All it requires is gear change to specialise more (currently have 4 armour sets on me at all times)

I can mighty blow bunkers for 3k and lights for 5k a pop. It is very versatile.

Any build with Selfless Daring and Cleric’s Gear can be as hard to kill as an AH build. They hit for less, but they heal for more (and it’s AoE).
So this build “versatility” due to gear you speak of isn’t limited to the Valor line only.

And even then, changing gears wouldn’t do much as your build would be still be lacking some key traits that other builds use to their best.

AH (and Valor line) brings (the Guardian’s) survivability and nothing else, there’s no “versatility” on this.
You can read all the traits and you won’t find many (just one actually) traits that benefit allies or improve skills that benefit allies.
It also has very few traits that increase damage in any form. And 30% extra Critical Damage isn’t the same as an extra 10%~15% damage at all times (it’s worse).

An example of versatile line is Honor (brings support, healing and damage).

Some passionate debate and opinions here, but I did want to throw out the following link on crit damage versus crit chance:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crit

So 30% crit damage with 5-10 crit chance provides a 1.040-1.080 increase to dps.

0% crit damage with a 10-15% crit chance provides 1.050-1.075 increase to dps

about on par with each other, but I would probably argue with more crit chances as better since our traits provide boons on crit, thus providing more dodge rolls, AH heals, and/or might stacks.

But yes, AH is selfish for the Guardian, versus a boonway/healaway Guard who still gives out shouts/boons but maximizes healing and duration.

AH just wants to throw out many boons quickly and its biggest return is via crits/symbols and not so much shouts. Could almost do away with shouts and use other utilities since they are not the primary source of AH heals.

Danicco.3568:

But Altruistic Healing builds aren’t versatile.
Altruistic Healing is for defense/survivability, and it excels at that.

There’s nothing in Altruistic Healing provides for damage or support, direct or indirectly.

But that’s just 30 points of our 70.

We can say we get to pick 2 or 3 main roles from Damage (Zeal, Radiance), Support (Honor, Virtue, Zeal), Survivability (Valor, Honor) and other minor roles such as Control, Conditions & Utilities.

It’s a no brainer that a Support Build with little/no points in Radiance/Valor are better.
Same for a Damage build with little/no points in Virtue/Valor.

But for some reason, Guardians who don’t try to come up with their own builds and just follow some guide or someone else’s opinions get stuck in the “there’s no other way to play!” because they didn’t think up all their traits/gear from scratch.
GW2 does an excellent job in having various viable builds, better than any game I’ve played, and if they start thinking for themselves they’d notice there’s plenty of options and playstyles available to them.

As long as people don’t try to use the wrong build for the wrong job, they can’t go wrong.

AH “builds” can be very versatile — I don’t think that’s where you were going with the comment, but I’m not sure.

Like many others have said, AH is just one trait from the total build. Personally I run a 0/15/30/20/5 AH Build. I like the crits and all the procs from the crits. The vigor proc allows me to dodge more which provides group healing in addition to damage mitigation and granting me an AH reward. The might proc supports my team while also granting me an AH reward.

Want more support, slap on the staff. The staff AoE auto-attack is amazing with the crit procs. More might for my team and more AH rewards for me. Want less support, grab a GS. Want more control, yeah hammer.

Anyway, I don’t see how AH makes me less “versatile” as you put it. If anything I have a great range of flexibility. As was mentioned above, it’s a very useful build that can accomplish a lot. IMHO, more than any glass cannon build.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

… how about you provide a build that exceeds AH build in effectiveness for supporting role so we can all see for ourselves how right you are?

Remove trait points in Valour 30, put them into Honour 30. This is one example of many. Any build that replaces a trait that gives no support with one that gives any will meet your challenge. I don’t see how overhealing yourself is going to fit within the best support build.

Having 30 points in valour is not mutually exclusive with having 30 points in Honour. There are AH variations that have both.

Seems you misunderstood my post. ‘Remove’ is a key word in there. The builds that remove the points from Valour and put them into anything else that gives support are better support builds because 1) you spend more points in supportive traits and 2) you don’t waste any points in non-supportive traits , i.e., AH. I doubt I can be more clear than this. If you don’t get it, then I don’t really have much more to add.

Perhaps overheal is the wrong word, though it can happen. Simply put, I use my other inherent damage mitigation tools less If I have AH. There is much to be improved upon in any build that substitutes the use of elements that are very effective and free with other elements that are less effective and costly. I have a difficult time convincing myself that a build that does this is a ‘best’ anything build.

No, you are the one that misrepresented the facts. You said you had to remove from one if you have the other, when obviously there are variants of AH that can have both and don’t require that.

Tinboy.7954:

Lol, buddy. I know how FOTM works. But my knowledge of FOTM doesn’t even matter in this case cause all I did was use your logic. It is either retaliation works well along with AH, or neither works. Do you even read what you type?

Since you didn’t get it the first time, I guess I’ll have to spell it out for you. Your argument was that retaliation is trivial because mobs 1-2 shot you meaning you only get a couple reflect off. From this, if you die in 1-2 shots anyways. How does a lot of mini heals help in any way if you still get 1-2 shot; it is not like the mini heals will do an instant 10k heal.

Basically, it is either retaliation works well along with AH or neither works since retaliation is based off of how many times you get hit.

Wrong. You failed to understand my logic and by extension failed to leverage it as part of your argument.

You also show you know nothing of higher lvl fotm.

I already pointed out that you can only dodge so many attacks and that you WILL be hit. I’ve already pointed out AH makes the difference between dying and surviving when your main heal is on CD.

Between the virtues, shouts, and staff #4 you can easily heal from 10% to full even while not using full cleric setup so you either don’t know much about AH build or you are purposefully not being honest when you talk about “mini-heals”.

Also, you’ve failed to provide a better alternative build as I’ve asked. Is your purpose just to troll and be contrarian?

CMF.5461:

Some passionate debate and opinions here, but I did want to throw out the following link on crit damage versus crit chance:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crit

So 30% crit damage with 5-10 crit chance provides a 1.040-1.080 increase to dps.

0% crit damage with a 10-15% crit chance provides 1.050-1.075 increase to dps

about on par with each other, but I would probably argue with more crit chances as better since our traits provide boons on crit, thus providing more dodge rolls, AH heals, and/or might stacks.

But yes, AH is selfish for the Guardian, versus a boonway/healaway Guard who still gives out shouts/boons but maximizes healing and duration.

AH just wants to throw out many boons quickly and its biggest return is via crits/symbols and not so much shouts. Could almost do away with shouts and use other utilities since they are not the primary source of AH heals.

It’s true that the healway/boon variations that are viable and I’ve stated that many times before.

However being viable is not the same as being “better”.

You can go 0 0 30 20 20 and have nearly identical support(only 5% less boon duration) to boonway build for example. (As well as all other major traits of that build) This is because the boon+ duration and support for those builds are mostly centered around gear and not traits.

Meanwhile, you have 30% more crit damage, 300 more toughness over the boonway build as well as the trait AH which gives you vastly superior survivability.

I fully support theorycrafting for builds for guardians, it’s because of that I swapped from Meditation build to AH build in the first place.

What I don’t support are people who misrepresent the facts and data to make their own rogue builds look better than they actually are, because that create misinformation and confusion for new players who read these posts and is dishonest.

DeathPanel.8362:

Tinboy.7954:

Lol, buddy. I know how FOTM works. But my knowledge of FOTM doesn’t even matter in this case cause all I did was use your logic. It is either retaliation works well along with AH, or neither works. Do you even read what you type?

Since you didn’t get it the first time, I guess I’ll have to spell it out for you. Your argument was that retaliation is trivial because mobs 1-2 shot you meaning you only get a couple reflect off. From this, if you die in 1-2 shots anyways. How does a lot of mini heals help in any way if you still get 1-2 shot; it is not like the mini heals will do an instant 10k heal.

Basically, it is either retaliation works well along with AH or neither works since retaliation is based off of how many times you get hit.

Wrong. You failed to understand my logic and by extension failed to leverage it as part of your argument.

You also show you know nothing of higher lvl fotm.

I already pointed out that you can only dodge so many attacks and that you WILL be hit. I’ve already pointed out AH makes the difference between dying and surviving when your main heal is on CD.

Between the virtues, shouts, and staff #4 you can easily heal from 10% to full even while not using full cleric setup so you either don’t know much about AH build or you are purposefully not being honest when you talk about “mini-heals”.

Also, you’ve failed to provide a better alternative build as I’ve asked. Is your purpose just to troll and be contrarian?

Lol, it is quite clear to me you are just being a troll. You basically ignored everything I’ve said and just changed the subject.

juno.1840:

Anyway, I don’t see how AH makes me less “versatile” as you put it. If anything I have a great range of flexibility. As was mentioned above, it’s a very useful build that can accomplish a lot. IMHO, more than any glass cannon build.

I didn’t say it makes you less versatile, but that it certainly doesn’t make a Guardian versatile.
Once you pick Valor 30, you locked out 30 points of any role into the survivability one. This means you gave up support, healing, damage just for survivability. You get some damage from points though.

On the other hand, if you picked Honor 30, you can freely switch traits to improve either support, healing or damage. This is versatile. And you get some survivability from points as well.

The entire point of AH vs Non-AH builds is the simple question of “do you need that survivability?”

I’ve started playing without AH since the game launched, and I build various times for AH since then.
Most of the times, including WvW, I felt it a waste of points because I wasn’t really needing or feeling the need of the survivability it provides.
The playstyle I achieved didn’t take it in account in the first place, so while keeping the same playstyle felt just lacking since I essentially “lost” 30 points I’m not really using.

To make it worth, though, I did attempt different playstyles, riskier ones, just so I could fully take advantage of it, but I didn’t found any that felt as useful as builds without it.

As a player who’s always seeking higher performance, I chose to avoid AH for the great good of my team/group.
As a player who’s going to group with strangers in the future, I’d like those Guardians to take that into consideration as well so I don’t think they’re weighting my group down.

The same reason that Signet Warriors aren’t exactly popular in groups because they give up all group support for their own damage bonus, I see AH Guardians as liabilities because they’re giving up group support for their own survivability.
Although they don’t give up all support as Warriors do, their own survivability doesn’t help the enemies die faster as well.

If you search for some Warrior’s theorycrafting you’ll see that Warriors found out that group support increases damage better than their own self damage increase signets.
Also, that’s why people say they enjoy Guardian in their groups for all the utilities we bring. I know for sure they’re not saying it’s because Guardians are awesome in self-healing.

I just hope the Guardian community grows up and stop this “AH build the best” egoistical hive mind and actually work in bringing the best for their groups.

Tinboy.7954:

DeathPanel.8362:

Tinboy.7954:

Lol, buddy. I know how FOTM works. But my knowledge of FOTM doesn’t even matter in this case cause all I did was use your logic. It is either retaliation works well along with AH, or neither works. Do you even read what you type?

Since you didn’t get it the first time, I guess I’ll have to spell it out for you. Your argument was that retaliation is trivial because mobs 1-2 shot you meaning you only get a couple reflect off. From this, if you die in 1-2 shots anyways. How does a lot of mini heals help in any way if you still get 1-2 shot; it is not like the mini heals will do an instant 10k heal.

Basically, it is either retaliation works well along with AH or neither works since retaliation is based off of how many times you get hit.

Wrong. You failed to understand my logic and by extension failed to leverage it as part of your argument.

You also show you know nothing of higher lvl fotm.

I already pointed out that you can only dodge so many attacks and that you WILL be hit. I’ve already pointed out AH makes the difference between dying and surviving when your main heal is on CD.

Between the virtues, shouts, and staff #4 you can easily heal from 10% to full even while not using full cleric setup so you either don’t know much about AH build or you are purposefully not being honest when you talk about “mini-heals”.

Also, you’ve failed to provide a better alternative build as I’ve asked. Is your purpose just to troll and be contrarian?

Lol, it is quite clear to me you are just being a troll. You basically ignored everything I’ve said and just changed the subject.

Project much? Everything you said here you are guilty of yourself.

FACTS:

• 30 Valor gives you very little to no direct group support.
• 30 Honor gives you great group support.
• 30 Virtues gives you great group support.
• You cannot be 0/0/30/30/30, because that equals 90 points.
• You cannot go 30 deep in both great support lines and still pick up AH.
• You don’t need any survivability traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• You don’t need any damage traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• Since 30 Valor has almost no direct support traits and no support attributes, it has no reason to be mentioned in an argument about MAXIMIZING a support role.

Is AH a great build? Yes. Does AH give more survivability in group content than any other build? Yes. Is AH a better group build for most content? Maybe.

Is AH the best pure support build? No.

Indure.5410:

FACTS:

• 30 Valor gives you very little to no direct group support.
• 30 Honor gives you great group support.
• 30 Virtues gives you great group support.
• You cannot be 0/0/30/30/30, because that equals 90 points.
• You cannot go 30 deep in both great support lines and still pick up AH.
• You don’t need any survivability traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• You don’t need any damage traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• Since 30 Valor has almost no direct support traits and no support attributes, it has no reason to be mentioned in an argument about MAXIMIZING a support role.

---

Is AH a great build? Yes. Does AH give more survivability in group content than any other build? Yes. Is AH a better group build for most content? Maybe.

Is AH the best pure support build? No.

Well said.

Indure.5410:

FACTS:

• 30 Valor gives you very little to no direct group support.
• 30 Honor gives you great group support.
• 30 Virtues gives you great group support.
• You cannot be 0/0/30/30/30, because that equals 90 points.
• You cannot go 30 deep in both great support lines and still pick up AH.
• You don’t need any survivability traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• You don’t need any damage traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• Since 30 Valor has almost no direct support traits and no support attributes, it has no reason to be mentioned in an argument about MAXIMIZING a support role.

---

Is AH a great build? Yes. Does AH give more survivability in group content than any other build? Yes. Is AH a better group build for most content? Maybe.

Is AH the best pure support build? No.

BRAVO!

Indure.5410:

FACTS:

• 30 Valor gives you very little to no direct group support.
• 30 Honor gives you great group support.
• 30 Virtues gives you great group support.
• You cannot be 0/0/30/30/30, because that equals 90 points.
• You cannot go 30 deep in both great support lines and still pick up AH.
• You don’t need any survivability traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• You don’t need any damage traits in order to be effective in a pure support role.
• Since 30 Valor has almost no direct support traits and no support attributes, it has no reason to be mentioned in an argument about MAXIMIZING a support role.

---

Is AH a great build? Yes. Does AH give more survivability in group content than any other build? Yes. Is AH a better group build for most content? Maybe.

Is AH the best pure support build? No.

This is NOT an argument about maximizing support. It never has been.

Also, your support is nonexistent if you are down or dead.

There’s very little to no difference in support between someone with 30 in virtue and 20 in virtue since guardian support effectiveness comes mostly from gear and runes. (AH variations with more support will run 20 in virtue)

However there’s a huge difference in having AH and not having AH as well as having 30% crit damage, 300 toughness and not having it.

DeathPanel.8362:

This is NOT an argument about maximizing support. It never has been.

This has always been an argument about maximizing support. Your very first post was that AH is the best build period and my post directly underneath you is that it is not the best at many things, just a very good all around build. Which it is, but if you are specializing in either damage or support then there are better builds.

DeathPanel.8362:

Also, your support is nonexistent if you are down or dead.

Although this is true it is an invalid argument. AH builds can still die and a 0/0/0/30/30 build can have ton of survival with gear/utilities/skill.

DeathPanel.8362:

There’s very little to no difference in support between someone with 30 in virtue and 20 in virtue since guardian support effectiveness comes mostly from gear and runes. (AH variations with more support will run 20 in virtue)

Except for 10% boon duration, 10% Virtue recharge, and a master trait that is support oriented. But even if it is only minor, in terms of buffing support skills it still is a better investment than spending any points into Valor.

DeathPanel.8362:

However there’s a huge difference in having AH and not having AH as well as having 30% crit damage, 300 toughness and not having it.

Noted, although 30% crit damage is worthless without decent crit chance and 300 toughness is not great if you have high toughness on gear since it will suffer from diminishing returns. And again, damage and survivability through traits is unimportant in terms of a pure support build.

Really all you have to do is admit that AH is a great build for many things and is one of the best guardian builds in terms of all-around gameplay, but it is not even close to the best damage build and isn’t the best pure support build either.

Indure.5410:

This has always been an argument about maximizing support. Your very first post was that AH is the best build period and my post directly underneath you is that it is not the best at many things, just a very good all around build. Which it is, but if you are specializing in either damage or support then there are better builds.

Wrong.

Notice how even in your interpretation of my statement I never said it maximizes support. All you’ve done is create a strawman argument.

I already stated before, 10% boon duration does not make a noticeable difference in support, while not having AH, 30% crit dmg and 300 toughness makes a huge difference in everything else.

Your simplistic view that blindly stacking support trait lines would achieve better overall support is totally unfounded and naive.

You would have a build that would have a tiny fraction of survivability of AH builds, less damage and be trivially better in support ON PAPER only but not in practice and the following statement explains why.

Your support is ZERO when you are down or dead, and frankly you will be down/dead far more than any AH build in any type of content that is remotely challenging.

You are free to post a build here if you think it’s better than AH instead of talking in unsubstantiated theoreticals. If you think I’m wrong then there’s no better chance to prove it than to post your own build and prove how it’s better.

DeathPanel.8362:

No, you are the one that misrepresented the facts. You said you had to remove from one if you have the other, when obviously there are variants of AH that can have both and don’t require that.

I never said that at all because that would be a stupid thing to say (Obviously you can match any traits you want to). Your comprehension is lacking. Hopefully the third time is the charm:

Better support builds are available by by removing your Valour trait points that give AH and putting them into anything else that gives support. That doesn’t mean I am saying you can’t combine points into different traits.

DeathPanel.8362:

I already stated before, 10% boon duration does not make a noticeable difference in support, while not having AH, 30% crit dmg and 300 toughness makes a huge difference in everything else.

…. everything else except team support. IIRC, that’s what we are discussing here.

DeathPanel.8362:

Your support is ZERO when you are down or dead, and frankly you will be down/dead far more than any AH build in any type of content that is remotely challenging.

Yes, but in the less challenging content, AH isn’t necessary so it’s not the absolute best of every support build as you claimed. You’re failure to convince in this discussion is due to attempting to qualify AH build as the absolute best based on your experience in the most challenging content. You fail to take into account or consider anyone’s experience that differs from your own. The relevance and context your personal experience has to the game and it’s players is limited and that inturn limits your ability to qualify AH in support builds, certain not expand it.

I for one definitely do not have problem living without AH for my teaming builds that are far more supportive than one that does have AH. If your experience tells you AH is the pinnacle of all support builds, mine tells me otherwise. There is no absolute here.

DeathPanel.8362:

Indure.5410:

This has always been an argument about maximizing support. Your very first post was that AH is the best build period and my post directly underneath you is that it is not the best at many things, just a very good all around build. Which it is, but if you are specializing in either damage or support then there are better builds.

Wrong.

Notice how even in your interpretation of my statement I never said it maximizes support. All you’ve done is create a strawman argument.

I already stated before, 10% boon duration does not make a noticeable difference in support, while not having AH, 30% crit dmg and 300 toughness makes a huge difference in everything else.

Your simplistic view that blindly stacking support trait lines would achieve better overall support is totally unfounded and naive.

You would have a build that would have a tiny fraction of survivability of AH builds, less damage and be trivially better in support ON PAPER only but not in practice and the following statement explains why.

Your support is ZERO when you are down or dead, and frankly you will be down/dead far more than any AH build in any type of content that is remotely challenging.

You are free to post a build here if you think it’s better than AH instead of talking in unsubstantiated theoreticals. If you think I’m wrong then there’s no better chance to prove it than to post your own build and prove how it’s better.

So you then admit that an AH build is not the best build for support and damage, survivability aside?

DeathPanel.8362:

There are NO other builds that outperform AH in support.

DeathPanel.8362:

Notice how even in your interpretation of my statement I never said it maximizes support. All you’ve done is create a strawman argument.

So it is possible to outperform an optimized build with a unoptimized build.
That’s amazing, I’m an unexperienced Guardian so I thought I had to built for damage if I wanted to damage, but I didn’t know it was possible to damage & support from defense as well.
Can you share your awesome tactic of how is this possible with us?

DeathPanel.8362:

I already stated before, 10% boon duration does not make a noticeable difference in support, while not having AH, 30% crit dmg and 300 toughness makes a huge difference in everything else.

I totally agree with you.
Even if they’re not two direct comparable attributes, it’s obvious that 30% Crit Damage, 300 Toughness and Altruistic Healing is better than 10% Boon Duration.
Who doesn’t think so?

DeathPanel.8362:

Your simplistic view that blindly stacking support trait lines would achieve better overall support is totally unfounded and naive.

Right.

I think what most people are missing is that there’s a sticky about the AH build in our very own Guardian forums, this means if you’re not playing AH, you’re doing it wrong.

I honestly feel sorry for any unexperienced Guardian who might be coming to these forums, happen to read a thread with posts filled of this uninformed, heretic knowledge proposing a non-AH build is actually better in anything than what any AH build can offer.

Since it hasn’t been mentioned, I’ll just add that a 30/20/20 AH build is losing out on a number of potential support traits in the final Honor slot (Pure of Voice being the most notable one), besides the extra HP and healing power. Builds with 30 in Honor and 30 in Virtues get to take PoV and an extra support trait of their choosing from Virtues (likely Indomitable Courage), besides getting reduced Virtue recharge and better boon uptime. These sort of builds are also more likely to spec deeply into healing power than AH, potentially allowing them to drop a 1400 AoE heal every few seconds (assuming Energy Sigils and perma-vigor, which these sort of builds are likely to have). So the 30/20/20 AH build actually loses out on a lot of support compared to something like your standard Healway.

As a side note, Healway users report that it’s basically indestructible in dungeons, including high level FOTM, so the survival argument may come into question as well.

Like others have said, AH is a fantastic balanced build that can excel in just about all types of content, and one I use myself, but it’s not nearly the best build for either DPS or support. It can provide a lot of both, but won’t match Guardian builds dedicated to these roles. There’s nothing wrong with that, and barring nerfs, I expect it to remain the most popular overall Guardian build, but there’s no sense pretending that other Guardian builds can’t be top tier alongside it. That was the mindset back in October, but the game has evolved since then.

DeathPanel.8362:

Your support is ZERO when you are down or dead, and frankly you will be down/dead far more than any AH build in any type of content that is remotely challenging.

So let’s talk about FACTS now. Because FACTS and DATA everyone can believe and agree with.

- AH builds help the Guardian stay alive longer, and because of this, it means Guardians will outdamage and outheal any other Guardian build possible.
Because other builds will be surely dead anytime soon and an AH build won’t.
The data clearly shows it.

- The Valor line provides 300 Toughness and 30% Crit Damage. This is clearly the best attribute increase compared to any other line.
Why would you take 10 Power and 1% Condition Duration over 300 Toughness and 30% Crit Damage? Increasing your damage by 1% (or less) is not worth losing tons of survivability from it, and as the point I made above shows, proved by facts, that survivability deals more damage than anything else, it’s just so wrong to skip Valor.

- Even if you have superhuman reflexes, logical thinking and general-level strategy capabilities, allowing you to dodge and avoid attacks in extreme hard content by moving and walking, you can’t avoid AoE and you can’t avoid cramps.
One small slip, you forget to press “walk forward” and BAM! You’re dead. AH builds allow you to quickly recover from this, whereas other builds can’t even get close to the regenerative power of an AH build.
AH build also allow you to rest your hand often to avoid cramps because of it’s higher base toughness.

- 9 out of 10 Guardians use an AH build variant. That’s a FACT. Why would people not use an AH build when it’s clearly superior?
Unless they think they’re smarter than the other 90% Guardians out there, which is statistically impossible, so this means we can affirm with certainty that they’re just subperforming.

- AH builds not only outperform damage, healing and support builds by outlasting, but they outperform them mathematically assuming a never dead state as well.
AH builds with Empower provides a healing total of 2000~ x5 allies + 4500 from AH (total 14500).
Compare this to Empower of a non AH build: 2000~ x5 allies (total 10000).

- AH builds also have a 30% more Crit Damage than other builds. I’ve crit Whirling Wrath for 15k with it already, it’s more than enough to kill anything in the game except bosses and veterans/champions.
In WvW I’ve crit 4k on bunkers and up to 8k on glass cannons.

- And lastly, because of the nature of AH in that we get healed by supporting allies, this means all our actions are also focused on support instead of just damage. AH builds brings unparalleled support with Shouts and Symbols that, besides their usual effects, also heals for 100~ x effect per target hit.

There’s nothing more to be said.

^ I was expecting a /sarcasm comment at the end, but didn’t see one so I’m now confused. Is this post serious or not?

ParaldaWind.4523:

I like my build, the problem is, I feel like it’s the only one that exists, at least for WvW.

I run the generic 0/5/30/30/5 AH/PoV/Emp Might shout build, with a hammer and staff. I have 35% crit chance, 65% crit damage, 18k health, 3k attack, and 3k armor.

I hate not having any real utility. The stability/regen/prot uptime is great, I guess, but being a stat box doesn’t let me really explore the possibilities of the class. I’ve thought about putting 10 into virtues, but it feels required to have altruistic healing, just because it’s so ridiculously good.

I don’t know how to tackle the altruistic healing problem, but maybe I know how to fix the pure of voice debacle…

I run shouts for two reasons, namely:

1. Condition Removal
2. Stability

I would love it if some normally under utilized weapon sets would be able to take on these roles, so that not every guardian has to trait the same way. Stability instead of protection on shield would be great, or maybe condition removal on sword might help.

Any thoughts?

drop the first 5 points and invites them in the last tree and pick up25% longer retal. I’ve also been running that build in small group roaming in WvW with sword/focus and great sword and have been having fun.

Indure.5410:

^ I was expecting a /sarcasm comment at the end, but didn’t see one so I’m now confused. Is this post serious or not?

I’m afraid I’m gonna have you figure it by yourself…

I tried my best to come up with all the reasonings he didn’t explain in his logic so far, and I must say… it’s as if I’ve been enlightened!

Currently rocking a 0/0/30/0/0 build because that’s all my Guardian needs.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

No, you are the one that misrepresented the facts. You said you had to remove from one if you have the other, when obviously there are variants of AH that can have both and don’t require that.

I never said that at all because that would be a stupid thing to say (Obviously you can match any traits you want to). Your comprehension is lacking. Hopefully the third time is the charm:

Better support builds are available by by removing your Valour trait points that give AH and putting them into anything else that gives support. That doesn’t mean I am saying you can’t combine points into different traits.

Sorry but you fail again. Anyone can simply scroll up to see your words so your denial is irrelevant. You deliberately misrepresented the facts and I simply called you out on it.

cough AH+Hammer = Godly. Dont forget build synergy. Tactics. Playstyles. Lots of things to factor in.

Em+AH+hammer/staff = Godly.

I doubt i would be able to do 20 fractals without having AH. I have 0 AR

AH builds bring everything in 1 package. Healway has terrible damage. You also have to consider weapons synergy. Valor line is neutral. You can use any weapon for it to be good. Other traits are geared a certain way to be maximised.

Someone stated it before and is one thing i go by. Everything looks good on paper. Its when the build is tested live is when you really see how good it is.

The best support if any type is one that is alive to give it. It is just the way it is.

There are times when AH is very good in a support build. It’s definitely not the absolute best for every situation someone wants to support a team because it’s simply not needed in every situation.

DeathPanel.8362:

Sorry but you fail again. Anyone can simply scroll up to see your words so your denial is irrelevant. You deliberately misrepresented the facts and I simply called you out on it.

OK, you win. AH is the absolute pinnacle of support builds because you continue to belabour your comprehension issues with my post. :BIG ROLL EYES HERE:

Danicco.3568:

I just hope the Guardian community grows up and stop this “AH build the best” egoistical hive mind and actually work in bringing the best for their groups.

^ this. I never played AH ever with my guard(my main). I don’t understand what the fuss is all about, when I read that it doesn’t heal teammates I was instantly turned off. I would rather explore trait trees that I can switch up between solo play/team play on the fly and the valor trait line lacks that.

No it doesnt heal teammates, but it keeps you alive to heal team mates. AH is a survival GM Trait. You can still play a boon guard with AH (slightly shorter boon duration) but the benefit of always being alive to give the boons and support.

Its about build synergy, peoples. Not about what 1 skill can do. Help yourself to help others and help others to help yourself. This is the essence of the Guardian by design.

An additional “limitation” of Altruistic Healing builds is that it’s not just locking you down to those 30 pts in the Valor line…

To maximize AH’s benefits, most will also choose to spend 20 pts in Honor to grab Empowering Might, which is certainly the most efficient way to maximize AH procs and boost both your own and your group’s damage via might stacks.

So most solid AH builds have actually committed 50 of their total trait points. This doesn’t leave much wiggle room.

x/x/30/30/x. It’s the jack of all trades, master of none build.

Are there better builds for survivability? Yes, same goes for dps and support. But AH does them all well, not great, but well.

You can go into in situation knowing you’ll be ok. I love my Paragon build, do I think it’s the best? No, ofc not. It just fits me and my playstyle.

KensaiZen.3740:

No it doesnt heal teammates, but it keeps you alive to heal team mates.

I never die on my Guardian, but this makes sense because with AH I can even stay alive if I get killed.

KensaiZen.3740:

Its about build synergy, peoples.

Agreed.

Best synergy traits/skills:

1 – Altruistic Healing: You Shout, Empowering Might or Symbol allies and you heal yourself. Greatest synergy ever.
2 – Monk’s Focus: You use Meditation and heal yourself for 2k even without healing, staying alive for even more aliveness.
3 – Retributive Armor: You get more damage as you get more defense. This is borderline OP imho and is only Adept Trait level!

Worst synergy traits/skills: (these seriously need a buff)

1 – Battle Presence & Absolute Resolution: 300~ regen (without Cleric’s) to 5 allies around you, but without AH you’re dead so your allies aren’t regenerating at all. Need to be reworked/switched places.
2 – Right Hand Strength & Empowering Might: roughly 30% extra chance to proc EM to allies from the Radiance alone, but without AH your allies aren’t getting the Might stacks and your damage is also null because you’re dead.
3 – Sword/Scepter & Torch: These need to be buffed because they don’t work well with AH builds as Symbol weapons do.

Obtena.7952:

OK, you win. AH is the absolute pinnacle of support builds because you continue to belabour your comprehension issues with my post. :BIG ROLL EYES HERE:

It’s good that you think so too, one more Guardian reached the light…

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

Sorry but you fail again. Anyone can simply scroll up to see your words so your denial is irrelevant. You deliberately misrepresented the facts and I simply called you out on it.

OK, you win. AH is the absolute pinnacle of support builds because you continue to belabour your comprehension issues with my post. :BIG ROLL EYES HERE:

The only one having comprehension problems here is you. Between the two of us only I have demonstrated knowledge of the guardian class/traits/gear setups while all you’ve done is post pathetic personal attacks and never supported any of your statements.

Rok.5074:

An additional “limitation” of Altruistic Healing builds is that it’s not just locking you down to those 30 pts in the Valor line…

To maximize AH’s benefits, most will also choose to spend 20 pts in Honor to grab Empowering Might, which is certainly the most efficient way to maximize AH procs and boost both your own and your group’s damage via might stacks.

So most solid AH builds have actually committed 50 of their total trait points. This doesn’t leave much wiggle room.

Empowering might is not neccessary for AH variants. It has an internal cooldown so you can’t proc it too often anyway.

DeathPanel.8362:

Between the two of us only I have demonstrated knowledge of the guardian class/traits/gear setups while all you’ve done is post pathetic personal attacks and never supported any of your statements.

Yes, clearly your demonstrating your knowledge. It’s evident when you cleverly avoided a discussion of builds by misinterpreting my proposal for improving an AH support build as saying that valour and honour are mutually exclusive traits, even after I provided repeated clarification that was not my meaning at all.

I really enjoy Consecration builds in WvW. You may enjoy 20 in virtues at least for that very reason. You may also enjoy the longer time on the elite for smaller group skirmishes, as it can let you throw out two group quickness buffs instead of one with Tome of Wrath.

I think you have a lot more flexibility with WvW builds because there’s simply a lot more that needs to be done. There’s much more value with area control like reflects and projectile defense bubbles. You might have fun with Staff and Mace/Shield, for example, and the damage on mace isn’t quite so bad either. Spirit Shield and Bow are also very fun to use.

Personally, I am running 30/0/30/10/0 right now. I may try it in WvW, but it is meant to be a front line greatsword user build. I know 30 in Zeal is not often well received, but thus far I am enjoying the passive regen options, the moderate toughness, the high crit damage, and very high power (3400 unbuffed is not too shabby.) I took AH over Monk’s Focus to reap the benefits of the self-buff from GS’s might on third chain, Save Yourself, and other shouts I can use to stay alive. So far it has served me well in most content I have used it in.

I think you will find that there are a lot more unexplored territory in WvW builds specifically. It is much more geared toward what role you want to serve in an army of many, instead of a small group of five.