Guild Wars 2

20/25/0/0/25 build.

Ascended weapon:
188 power
134 minor
10% crit dmg

Ascended armor:
329 power
235 minor
17% crit dmg

Ascended trinkets:
570 power
376 minor
44% crit dmg

Runes, Sigils, Traits:
Scholar: +165 power, +8% crit dmg, +10% dmg
20 zeal = 200 power
25 radiance = 250 precision
Sigil of force = +5% damage
Sigil of accuracy = +5% crit chance

Buffs:
Truffle steak = 100 power, 70 precision.
+10% damage potion
35 might = 875 power
+20% crit chance
Spotter +150 precision
Banner +170 power, +170 precision, +15% crit damage

Grand totals:
Power 3513
Precision 2301 (Crit chance = 65.95% base, +5% rune, +20% fury, +4% base = 94.95% crit chance).
Crit damage = 94% + 150% base = 244%

Overall crit damage modifier = 2.36728.

Damage multipliers:
Zeal +10%, Zeal +5% (greatsword), Radiance +10%, Scholar +10%, Sigil +5%, Virtue 5%, Asc weapon 5%
=1.695

Power of 3513, crit multiplier of 2.36728, damage multiplier of 1.7796
Effective power = 3513 X 2.36728 X 1.7796 = 14,800.

Replace crit damage items with ferocity items @ 15 ferocity = 1 crit damage.

Replace 10% crit damage on weapon with 134 ferocity.
Replace 17% crit damage on armor with 235 ferocity.
Replace 44% crit damage on trinkets with 376 ferocity.
Replace 8% crit damage on runes with 100 ferocity.
Replace banner buff 15% crit damage with 170 ferocity.
Your ferocity is 1015.
Your new crit damage is 67.66%, or 217.66%.

New Grand totals:
Power 3513
Precision 2301 (Crit chance = 65.95% base, +5% rune, +20% fury, +4% base = 94.95% crit chance).
Crit damage = 67.66% + 150% base = 217.66%

Overall crit damage modifier = 2.117

Damage multipliers:
Zeal +10%, Zeal +5% (greatsword), Radiance +10%, Scholar +10%, Sigil +5%, Virtue 5%, Asc weapon 5%
=1.695

Power of 3513, crit multiplier of 2.117, damage multiplier of 1.7796
Effective power = 3513 X 2.117 X 1.7796 = 13234

Conclusion:
Full gear/buffs etc results in 89.4% of original damage when moving to ferocity.

I also ran some numbers on a no buffs build. The damage reduction is less severe, it doesn’t even hit the 10% mark.

I would bet the increase from 1 sigil to 2 sigils has resulted in our dps being higher than it was before the crit damage ‘nerf’.
Whatever gear set gives you the highest dps will always be king in PvE until Anet improve mob AI and PvE encounter design. Root causes have always been one-shot mechanics and the spike nature of incoming damage. This still appears to be zerker gear.
“Lfg zerkers only”.

If we have to be honest, Guardian is the clase whose PvE meta build gets less nefed (no points in critical damage traitline). It will be a slightly higher decrease for other classes.

I did some calculation for a scenario including Spotter and Discipline (but no accuracy sigil, I don’t think it’s worth) and the damage loss was about 12%.
As you said, for not organized groups which might be lacking some of this or even a bit of fury upkeep the loss would be even smaller and the second sigil slot would also compensate a lot of it.

There are some other things to factor in, like the changes on stacking sigil (which might be either a nerf or invalidate the extra sigil) and, much more important, ferocity scaling better than current critdamage, which will lead to higher critical damage bonuses for content leves below 60 or so.

You’re right that classes with points in the crit dmg tree will get hit harder, but I doubt they’ll be hit much harder. If having near 100% bonus crit damage dropped my dps by ~10%, having near 130% crit bonus won’t be too far away.

Personally I think the correct route would have been to make it easier for pugs to buff.. cap might, make aoe buffs larger in range, cap vulnerability, remove potions, remove mob specific/night specific sigils, and readjust boss HP based on this new easily attainable ‘max dps’ scenario. The problem right now is that the max dps achieved by hardcore players is so far away from the average dps achieved by pugs, so it makes it tough to adjust difficulty and boss hp because you can only satisfy one group of players. Bring the average and max dps closer together and you can easier balance the enemies.

Looks like it falls in line with what Anet said it would for full zerk. I wonder how this effects build using the crit damage tree or mix/match gear.

Myself, I’ve avoided doing the math for the sake of the patch not here yet. I’m sure it will be 15 = 1, but who knows.

It’s going to affect organized groups the most. Groups that stack fury, spotter, discipline banner, foods etc (even non precision based buffs/conditions). These groups will most likely be losing a massive chunk of dps. It will reduce the gap between organized and pug runs, which is currently massive as well. These groups could be losing 50% dps while a regular pug may be losing 10% dps. However, skilled groups will still excel and people will still complain about zerkers.

It’s possible also that zerkers who currently don’t set a prerequisite on their lfg’s will now start doing so. It will be harder for zerkers to survive in un-optimized groups, thus they may be more inclined to make sure everyone is zerker.

No idea where you got your numbers laharl but there’s no way organised groups are going to lose 50% Dps.

I would like to add with the removal of being able to use stacker sigils without the weapon equipped could be a slight nerf in some builds/forms of the game.

@laharl: I figured it would affect mid tier groups the most. I think organized groups lose the most but for the most part, the same strategies will still be effective. The main difference will be less DMG = more time spent dealing DMG. This will be annoying but not a problem for organized groups.

The ‘quasi meta’ groups on the LFG (e.g. ‘Full zerk 5 war only!’) will be the ones to be affected the most I think. I don’t think these groups will be able to run full Berserker’s gear anymore. These players, while not at optimal DPS right now, will have even less. They are also notorious for being unable to actually play the game beyond trying to copy experienced strategies while missing most of the underlying mechanic. Their low DPS coupled with their inability to adapt and survive encounters will likely break many ‘quasi meta’ groups down into different gear sets.

The low tier DPS PuGs will likely not notice at all 35 minute runs will be 40 minute runs

fadeaway.2807:

No idea where you got your numbers laharl but there’s no way organised groups are going to lose 50% Dps.

KK, I was thinking the same thing but thought I must be confused. Only way I could see someone saying 50% for the group is if they are being silly and going “10% per person 5 per group, 50%!” but… that’s not how it works.

50% is an exaggeration, and I should know better to not exaggerate on a forum, too late now (10% is an exaggeration too lol). My point is, organized groups are gestalt in nature. By supporting each other offensively, each players is able to produce much higher numbers than they could alone or in a pug. We buff/debuff to the point we are hitting far harder than any pug. Most pugs are barely hitting any harder than they would solo. The crit damage nerf (and sigil stacking) is going to affect all these numbers and these team will be losing a lot of dps.

I see what Saint means and I tend to agree. While the highly organized groups will lose the highest percentage overall, the less organized zerker groups will probably be more affected. The highly organized often already consist of members who solo arah or many encounters. These groups also know how to mitigate damage at the highest order, they know that stacking isn’t just standing there dpsing and hoping you kill them before they kill you. The groups running full dps, but relied only on their dps and less mitigation, skilled play and smart tactics will be hurt the most.

If every member of your party loses 10% of their damage, your total party damage is reduced by 10%. Not 50%. I realize that’s an exaggeration on your part but it’s so wild that I think it needs to be clarified in case someone misunderstands.

Barring any other changes, I don’t think you have anything to worry about from the gestalt perspective either. No one’s utility has changed. Just damage. The inter-party synergies are the same.

foofad.5162:

If every member of your party loses 10% of their damage, your total party damage is reduced by 10%. Not 50%. I realize that’s an exaggeration on your part but it’s so wild that I think it needs to be clarified in case someone misunderstands.

In organised groups we’re not talking just about the 10% personal crit dmg nerf. Stacking sigils will no longer work when you take them off, making them mostly useless in dungeons. That’s a dmg nerf as well. Not to mention nerfing banner of discipline, LH and foods.

I heard someone calculated the overall group damage nerf for organised groups would be around 27% but I haven’t personally read it so I can’t confirm.

Maybe it’s because I main guard but I’m not too bothered. This should force zerkers to start paying even more attention and get more skill.

cranos.5913:

foofad.5162:

If every member of your party loses 10% of their damage, your total party damage is reduced by 10%. Not 50%. I realize that’s an exaggeration on your part but it’s so wild that I think it needs to be clarified in case someone misunderstands.

In organised groups we’re not talking just about the 10% personal crit dmg nerf. Stacking sigils will no longer work when you take them off, making them mostly useless in dungeons. That’s a dmg nerf as well. Not to mention nerfing banner of discipline, LH and foods.

I heard someone calculated the overall group damage nerf for organised groups would be around 27% but I haven’t personally read it so I can’t confirm.

Maybe it’s because I main guard but I’m not too bothered. This should force zerkers to start paying even more attention and get more skill.

Agreed, this game needs some difficulty. This stat nerf isn’t necessarily what I was thinking, but it’s something. The game is still face roll easy for tanky builds. I’d like to see difficulty incorporated into encounters themselves, I’m hopeful we’ll see more of that in the future.

laharl.8435:

cranos.5913:

foofad.5162:

If every member of your party loses 10% of their damage, your total party damage is reduced by 10%. Not 50%. I realize that’s an exaggeration on your part but it’s so wild that I think it needs to be clarified in case someone misunderstands.

In organised groups we’re not talking just about the 10% personal crit dmg nerf. Stacking sigils will no longer work when you take them off, making them mostly useless in dungeons. That’s a dmg nerf as well. Not to mention nerfing banner of discipline, LH and foods.

I heard someone calculated the overall group damage nerf for organised groups would be around 27% but I haven’t personally read it so I can’t confirm.

Maybe it’s because I main guard but I’m not too bothered. This should force zerkers to start paying even more attention and get more skill.

Agreed, this game needs some difficulty. This stat nerf isn’t necessarily what I was thinking, but it’s something. The game is still face roll easy for tanky builds. I’d like to see difficulty incorporated into encounters themselves, I’m hopeful we’ll see more of that in the future.

Stat nerf is bad imo, the only positive thing I can see out of it is that all those zerkers (mainly warriors) that just DPS and don’t die now have to try starting to dodge a bit more and maybe become more aware, I guess.

I’d love more bosses like lupicus. I’m currently learning how to solo him and it’s good fun.

cranos.5913:

laharl.8435:

cranos.5913:

foofad.5162:

If every member of your party loses 10% of their damage, your total party damage is reduced by 10%. Not 50%. I realize that’s an exaggeration on your part but it’s so wild that I think it needs to be clarified in case someone misunderstands.

In organised groups we’re not talking just about the 10% personal crit dmg nerf. Stacking sigils will no longer work when you take them off, making them mostly useless in dungeons. That’s a dmg nerf as well. Not to mention nerfing banner of discipline, LH and foods.

I heard someone calculated the overall group damage nerf for organised groups would be around 27% but I haven’t personally read it so I can’t confirm.

Maybe it’s because I main guard but I’m not too bothered. This should force zerkers to start paying even more attention and get more skill.

Agreed, this game needs some difficulty. This stat nerf isn’t necessarily what I was thinking, but it’s something. The game is still face roll easy for tanky builds. I’d like to see difficulty incorporated into encounters themselves, I’m hopeful we’ll see more of that in the future.

Stat nerf is bad imo, the only positive thing I can see out of it is that all those zerkers (mainly warriors) that just DPS and don’t die now have to try starting to dodge a bit more and maybe become more aware, I guess.

I’d love more bosses like lupicus. I’m currently learning how to solo him and it’s good fun.

Indeed, more bosses like lupi is exactly what this game needs. I’d even take buffed versions of lupi or fighting 3 at time, that’d be awesome. He really is a fun boss.

laharl.8435:

cranos.5913:

laharl.8435:

cranos.5913:

foofad.5162:

If every member of your party loses 10% of their damage, your total party damage is reduced by 10%. Not 50%. I realize that’s an exaggeration on your part but it’s so wild that I think it needs to be clarified in case someone misunderstands.

In organised groups we’re not talking just about the 10% personal crit dmg nerf. Stacking sigils will no longer work when you take them off, making them mostly useless in dungeons. That’s a dmg nerf as well. Not to mention nerfing banner of discipline, LH and foods.

I heard someone calculated the overall group damage nerf for organised groups would be around 27% but I haven’t personally read it so I can’t confirm.

Maybe it’s because I main guard but I’m not too bothered. This should force zerkers to start paying even more attention and get more skill.

Agreed, this game needs some difficulty. This stat nerf isn’t necessarily what I was thinking, but it’s something. The game is still face roll easy for tanky builds. I’d like to see difficulty incorporated into encounters themselves, I’m hopeful we’ll see more of that in the future.

Stat nerf is bad imo, the only positive thing I can see out of it is that all those zerkers (mainly warriors) that just DPS and don’t die now have to try starting to dodge a bit more and maybe become more aware, I guess.

I’d love more bosses like lupicus. I’m currently learning how to solo him and it’s good fun.

Indeed, more bosses like lupi is exactly what this game needs. I’d even take buffed versions of lupi or fighting 3 at time, that’d be awesome. He really is a fun boss.

Oooh 3 lupi’s now that would be interesting.

The nerf is about 10% for a regular player. But for a organized group that max mainly their Crit Dmg and Crit chance the nerf is between 15% and 25% (not the same for every profession and we are still not sure about the quantity of ferocity for food, utilities, skills, etc.

Anyway, i’m sure once the patch come live, we will only min-max our build differently so the nerf is not that bad. Usually, ppl that end up with a higher % of nerf, used a lot of precision buff, which i bet won’t be use much post-patch.

Thaddeus. With 25% fury uptime, 5 might stacks, no banners, no spotter, cheap pwr/prec food and sharpening stone I see a Dps drop of just under 10%.

The fully buffed, full vuln, full consumables etc scenario As described in my original post show slightly above 10% loss.
If you have any numbers to back up your 15-25% loss claim I would love to see them, because as it currently stands I can deduce 3 things from the change :

A) Dps loss is minimal.
B) Meta will still be zerker.
C) It is more important than ever to stack zerkers, less room for slackers.

Again, nice work. I’m going to add this to my sticky. I noticed you had 35 stacks of might (just typo).

Let’s compromise, I don’t think it is “fine,” but it is “acceptable.” I’m gonna miss my huge Whirling Wraths. Having the option of a Force + Night/Race sigil on the greatsword will largely compensate for that, but we’ll have to come up with some new best practices in regards to Bloodlust stacking. The effectiveness of bloodlust (at 25 stacks) largely outclass most sigils, I’m hopeful we’ll have some new options open up. Especially considering the relative ‘boringness’ of the stack mechanics. First post in awhile, but I just wanna say… who really thought anyone would use the new grandmaster traits? Looks like 20/25/0/0/25 is still king for PvE.