Firebrand: Great Potential

Firebrand: Great Potential

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Posted by: Mugetsu.9013

Mugetsu.9013

Firstly, I have to say that I’m biased, as someone who mains guardian. That being said, I understand the class relatively well with over 1400 hours played on my guardian.

The firebrand is an interesting take on an elite specialization. It brings back the old Tome elite skills in a different way via virtues. That being said, it has flaws. As far as the tomes go, the range of many of the tome skills seems far too short, such as the first chapter of the tome which replaces virtue of Justice. Additionally, the cast times feel too long, and hinder the tomes. Moving on, let’s talk about the weapon skills. I actually love the axe, I have been waiting for guardians to gain access to it since before dragon Hunter was announced. The axe skills are awesome. As far as the utility skills go, I don’t like that they are done through mantras. However, they are different than those of the mesmer. However, like the tome skills, they need an increase in rage. Aside from that it seems to have great potential. I for one am looking forward to building a condition firebrand for PoF..

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Posted by: Tenrai Senshi.2017

Tenrai Senshi.2017

I do agree it has great potential and the mechanics introduced are very interesting, but yes there are flaws.

I won’t touch on tomes because that’s been covered already. But one impression I did get from playing the stress test a bit last night was that their burn build potential is still a bit sub-par. Against low density mobs, you don’t really get enough stacks of burning to do considerable damage, it’s only against high density mobs with Permeating Wrath proc-ing more often that you really get to see higher burn damage numbers and even then it’s still often lower than what other classes can achieve without having to rely on such a situational mechanic.

Now, this could simply be a lack of experience with the build on my part, but I really couldn’t see how I could apply burns more efficiently and bleeds are too few and too short duration to really bother taking note of, to the point where casting symbol of vengeance felt more like a chore than a boon, with its cast time being what it is.

I also felt very glassy while playing with Firebrand. Even after mixing some trailblazer gear in to get some more tankiness, I was dying against normal mobs in the new area pretty fast. A lack of mobility and active defenses, and a very weak heal with Mantra of Solace wasn’t helping the case much (yes I know I could have used another heal but the point was to test the efficiency of firebrand skills).

All-in-all, I’d rather have an interesting/fun class that is a bit under-powered and that can be buffed with some tweaks, than have a very effective class that has boring mechanics (which are much harder to fix thereafter). In that respect, I do think Firebrand has succeeded in many respects from a flavor point of view. That being said, I do think it needs a few tweaks here and there. In particular, if you’re going to introduce a spec that’s meant to allow you to build into conditions, then at least make it comparable to condition builds from other classes. We’re giving up a lot of active defenses and mobility for it, so the returns for those losses need to be worthwhile.

(edited by Tenrai Senshi.2017)

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Posted by: Malthurius.6870

Malthurius.6870

I think Firebrand is in a fantastic place mechanically. It’s one of the more rock-solid elite specializations, imo.

Some numbers just need some tweaking.

As for range, I get the impression that A-net want to encourage Guardians being in melee at all times, it’s kind of a staple of Guardian’s design as a profession. A little bit more range couldn’t hurt, but I’m not bothered very much by the melee range tomes spells.

I do dislike that the tomes have a cast time. It kills the flow of the tomes somewhat. It’s awkward to go through 2 cast times before having any serious impact.

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Posted by: Thereon.5219

Thereon.5219

I had a blast with the FB during the stress test, tried out a full celestial firebrand build and had no problems with anything(Minus the time I attempted to solo a champion). The Aegis on the mantra heal combos really well with the honor line’s trait to heal on Aegis to tack on an additional ~1k heal per mantra use on top of the usual heal.

If stand your ground doesn’t change (granting 10 seconds of quickness) then it will be a staple because with 10 seconds of quickness I was shredding through everything and with the +250 to condi/tough/heal while Quickness is active I found myself very tanky along with the damage.

Only things I would like to see improvement on is having the mantra’s aoe instead of a cone and buffing the F2 and F3 tomes a bit. Overall though I found it fun to keep Quickness up as much as possible and cleaving through everything with my axe. Still want to test whether I like Zeal or Honor alongside the FB and radiance.

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Posted by: Mercurias.1826

Mercurias.1826

I’m planning on going Radiance/Honor over Radiance/Zeal, Thereon, for the added healing, dodge, and choice between oversized healing symbols that heal and reduced recharge on Shouts. It seems to offer more in the long run to me.

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Posted by: StrafeFaster.2046

StrafeFaster.2046

I also felt very glassy while playing with Firebrand. Even after mixing some trailblazer gear in to get some more tankiness, I was dying against normal mobs in the new area pretty fast. A lack of mobility and active defenses, and a very weak heal with Mantra of Solace wasn’t helping the case much (yes I know I could have used another heal but the point was to test the efficiency of firebrand skills).

Weird. I was running Seraph gear and was basically unkillable, and was doing enough dmg that I feel comfortable soloing.

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

I was testing celestial gear + sinister weapons(all ascended).
Tried axe/shield + sw/focus (greatsword)

It was fun killing mobs with quickness.

But it would be hell fighting in pvp and wvw cause some classes have 8-12k hits with one ability. Pve is not pvp, pve here is fighting golems who are tickling you with some dmg, problem with pvp and wvw where active defenses are thing to have, and firebrand fails at it. Tomes there are not efficient to give some sort of survival (especially F2 underwhelming heals and f3 underwhelming defenses).
Mantra cone also dont bring too good things.

Mantra heal should heal for 2k per use(without healing power)
Elite mantra should give 3s of protection per use.
Condition mantra should also give chill.

Tomes should have 15/25/35 cd’s cause they are underwhelming + cast time activating(3/4) + cast time of skills(1/3 to 1 1/4) no active blocks + pretty bad heal +240 range skills (seriously anet, taunt on 240 range,no blast finishers??)

Upper traits are useless (axe have bleed already, trait should give torment, symbol need some kind of boon), Master(immobilize, anet seriously?some classes are immune to it, worst condition and on 3rd final use and 35 sec cd after thatcmon useless), grandmaster(slow really) -such underwhelming traits.

Middle traits are way to go if you are solo quickness killer.

Down line is good for supporting but not like middle line.

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

I assume nothing has changed about the big issues from the test weekend?

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

I assume nothing has changed about the big issues from the test weekend?

Nope they gave us same thing from 2nd test.

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

Thanks, I didn’t really expect anything else.

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

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Posted by: skeeman.3140

skeeman.3140

They did state though that there have been a number of changes/bug fixes based on feedback, they just weren’t including those in the stress test.

I did have fun running around doing events and having Tome of Justice refresh thanks to Renewed Justice. If I could make one tweak though, I’d have Renewed Justice give you back a spent page if you were still in the tome on enemy death. That way you weren’t “wasting” it if you didn’t drop out prior to death.

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

They did state though that there have been a number of changes/bug fixes based on feedback, they just weren’t including those in the stress test.

Yeah, would have been a surprise if they brought the stuff into a mere stress test. I guess I’ll find out after PoF launch whether they get something reasonable done with FB.

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

All I want out of Firebrand is a Tome-o-mancer.

All Tomes, all the time, that’s what I want. Anything short of that, I just do not care, which makes me sad as I really like more core Guardian and really want to love the new class. If people like the existing version, fine, then keep that in, but at least offer a trait option that completely overhauls how the Tomes work, so that you can have them active 100% of the time, flipping between them as needed, spammable 1 moves, etc. so that they play out like Engi kits, even if this means nerfing some of the current options. That is what I NEED from this spec.

If they’re just something you can use occasionally, I just can’t be bothered. More hassle to use than core/DH versions.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

They did state though that there have been a number of changes/bug fixes based on feedback, they just weren’t including those in the stress test.

Yeah, would have been a surprise if they brought the stuff into a mere stress test. I guess I’ll find out after PoF launch whether they get something reasonable done with FB.

If they make changes like to staff auto then we are kittened

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

If they make changes like to staff auto then we are kittened

Certainly, but on the other hand, I think it’s pretty difficult to surpass support mantras (and tomes) in uselessness. In its current state, FB is a spec I’ll touch just once to confirm it’s still bad, so I’d hardly care for any further FB nerfs. If they produce some reasonable fixes in the meantime, maybe I’ll even buy PoF after my holidays.

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

I think f1 and f3 tomes are fine. They are very impactful and the big cds make sense because of this. Additionally, these tomes have ways to be refreshed beyond using renewed focus. you can get f1 back by using radiance and you can get f3 back by using valor. The only outlier is f2 tome that doesn’t feel strong enough to be worth the cd and resource limitation. The healing is too low and unlike f1 and f3 (killing an enemy and rezzing an ally), does not have an alternative to get refreshed. It might make sense to place a minor in the honor or virtues line that refreshes f2 on core guardian.

(edited by Kuya.6495)

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Posted by: Selendile.9106

Selendile.9106

I think f1 and f3 tomes are fine. They are very impactful and the big cds make sense because of this. Additionally, these tomes have ways to be refreshed beyond using renewed focus. you can get f1 back by using radiance and you can get f3 back by using valor. The only outlier is f2 tome that doesn’t feel strong enough to be worth the cd and resource limitation. The healing is too low and unlike f1 and f3 (killing an enemy and rezzing an ally), does not have an alternative to get refreshed. It might make sense to place a minor in the honor or virtues line that refreshes f2 on core guardian.

I sorta agree on the usefulness of F1 and F3. F2 needs to scale better with healing power or it’s utterly useless.

I disagree on the cooldowns. NO reason for 90s. Frankly, all 3 tomes should have a 20 sec cooldown when traited in Virtues, 25s otherwise. All three tomes fulfill wildly different roles, no reason to have such different cooldowns. This is something I never understood with base guardian as well….

I’m just tired of HAVING to use Renewed Focus. And if tomes are implemented as is, ALL firebrands will need it. It’ll be pretty much mandatory.

Just my 2 cents.

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Posted by: Sonork.2916

Sonork.2916

Almost everything seems kinda underwhelming on Firebrand. Cast times, cool downs lack of mobility and active defence. I would have rather seen Firebrand virtues just be like engineer kits. Can’t see a good reason to switch to Firebrand over everything DH has. I’ll most likely be sticking with DH until Firebrand has something going for it.

(edited by Sonork.2916)

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Posted by: Arcaedus.7290

Arcaedus.7290

I think f1 and f3 tomes are fine. They are very impactful and the big cds make sense because of this. Additionally, these tomes have ways to be refreshed beyond using renewed focus. you can get f1 back by using radiance and you can get f3 back by using valor. The only outlier is f2 tome that doesn’t feel strong enough to be worth the cd and resource limitation. The healing is too low and unlike f1 and f3 (killing an enemy and rezzing an ally), does not have an alternative to get refreshed. It might make sense to place a minor in the honor or virtues line that refreshes f2 on core guardian.

f1 is very impactful and I think it’s in a good spot. f2 is a dumpster full of garbage (if you’re full healing power, it’s only a slightly full trash can though) and f3 is great but doesn’t warrant anything more than a 40-50s cd considering its cast times and short durations of the effects.

Renewed Focus (elite), Renewed Justice (trait) and Courageous Return (trait) do not justify long cooldowns on the tomes. The traits are added perks and should not be a reason to ever increase cooldowns and skew balance (because there are plenty of builds that may not make use of some or even any of these traits). And renewed focus functions as a second-wind and an “oh shi-” button, not an intrinsic part of every build (which it pretty much is at the moment). The tomes should be stand-alone and functional by themselves with little traiting (just relevant ones in FB line) or utility skills to back them up and right now they definitely are not due to the combo of cast times and cooldowns.

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

They should make RF no longer resetrs F1,2,3 cause they are tomes now and virtue line does not reduce cd’s of tomes and then make tomes like engi kits with longer cds of tome skills and page regen over time. Best solution for firebrand.

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Posted by: RabbitUp.8294

RabbitUp.8294

I played during stress test, firebrand felt super clunky and very squishy. Of course, the lag made it worse, but by itself I didn’t find anything appealing. It’s just burn guardian, Tome of Justice didn’t change the playstyle, because it’s super bland, just some vanilla aoe burn spells, with awkwardly slow animations. The vaccuum skill was the only interesting one, but its radius is too small to be useful. It’s 240 when the mesmer skill (focus #4) is 600.

The spec as a whole feels rushed. All mantras are the same range, same mechanics, same animations with different colours. It’s just feels so boring, when other specs get so many varied and interesting skills.

They should make RF no longer resetrs F1,2,3 cause they are tomes now and virtue line does not reduce cd’s of tomes and then make tomes like engi kits with longer cds of tome skills and page regen over time. Best solution for firebrand.

They are still Virtues, just named “tomes”, like how DH’s virtues were named spear, wings and shield.

And yes, Virtues reduces their cooldown by 15%.

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Posted by: StrafeFaster.2046

StrafeFaster.2046

I played during stress test, firebrand felt super clunky and very squishy.

I really don’t understand this. I ran Seraph gear and didn’t feel squishy at all. The only time I died was when I tried to solo a bounty. But I’ve seen other people say it too. It’s weird.

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Posted by: Noah.4756

Noah.4756

I played during stress test, firebrand felt super clunky and very squishy.

I really don’t understand this. I ran Seraph gear and didn’t feel squishy at all. The only time I died was when I tried to solo a bounty. But I’ve seen other people say it too. It’s weird.

I also played Firebrand during the stress test. I tried out two different builds: offensive DPS (Vipers) and defensive Support (Minstrel). I can’t say I had problems surviving. Open world isn’t exactly the pinnacle of hard content though.

Having permanent quickness felt really strong (especially with Stand your Ground) on a DPS build. Tome of Justice with Renewed Justice gives the Tome the ability to resume bursting on each new enemy. The Axe qualifies as a decent condition weapon. The only thing I didn’t like about it is that the Axe #3 doesn’t have a ground targeted animation like Ranger Axe #4 Path of Scars. Right now if I want to pull another add to my target I had to re-select my new target.

Using support with Tome of Resolve and Tome of Courage felt underwhelming. The Tomes didn’t bring anything I was already able to do with my core Guardian set up. I was able to survive Champions and large group of mobs with Mace+Shield / Staff. Once in a while I used Tome of Resolve #4 & #1 to burst heal myself but the heals are very dull and limited. No range, low radius, low coefficients. Tome of Courage is all right with the Legendary Lore trait that gives aegis, otherwise it’s just more of the same on a very long cool down.

The trait lines are pretty much straightforward. Grandmaster traits only have 1 viable option which is Loremaster. Stoic Demeanor doesn’t feel like a Grandmaster trait. Quickfire needs a slight boost in order to compete with Druid buffs.

I like the ammunition system on Mantra’s. The cone radius needs to go for supportive Mantra’s. This regards to Mantra of Potence, Mantra of Lore & Mantra of Liberation.

With these changes I believe Firebrand will have potential to become meta.

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

I played during stress test, firebrand felt super clunky and very squishy.

I really don’t understand this. I ran Seraph gear and didn’t feel squishy at all. The only time I died was when I tried to solo a bounty. But I’ve seen other people say it too. It’s weird.

I also played Firebrand during the stress test. I tried out two different builds: offensive DPS (Vipers) and defensive Support (Minstrel). I can’t say I had problems surviving. Open world isn’t exactly the pinnacle of hard content though.

Having permanent quickness felt really strong (especially with Stand your Ground) on a DPS build. Tome of Justice with Renewed Justice gives the Tome the ability to resume bursting on each new enemy. The Axe qualifies as a decent condition weapon. The only thing I didn’t like about it is that the Axe #3 doesn’t have a ground targeted animation like Ranger Axe #4 Path of Scars. Right now if I want to pull another add to my target I had to re-select my new target.

Using support with Tome of Resolve and Tome of Courage felt underwhelming. The Tomes didn’t bring anything I was already able to do with my core Guardian set up. I was able to survive Champions and large group of mobs with Mace+Shield / Staff. Once in a while I used Tome of Resolve #4 & #1 to burst heal myself but the heals are very dull and limited. No range, low radius, low coefficients. Tome of Courage is all right with the Legendary Lore trait that gives aegis, otherwise it’s just more of the same on a very long cool down.

The trait lines are pretty much straightforward. Grandmaster traits only have 1 viable option which is Loremaster. Stoic Demeanor doesn’t feel like a Grandmaster trait. Quickfire needs a slight boost in order to compete with Druid buffs.

I like the ammunition system on Mantra’s. The cone radius needs to go for supportive Mantra’s. This regards to Mantra of Potence, Mantra of Lore & Mantra of Liberation.

With these changes I believe Firebrand will have potential to become meta.

Tomes are kitten and thats why they need to be like engi kits, using skills whenever we want and not locked into spending all pages before going out. They need to have increased skill cd’s (f3 reflecting dome like 30 sec and worse skills with smaller cd’s) and tomes need to share pages with regen over time so its not abusable.

Now skills and abilities just contradict each other, mantras cone, tomes huge cd’s, tome huge cast time, melee oriented without movement speed boost, bad traits…

I can call firebrand a walking mess right now.

(edited by Ragnarox.9601)

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Posted by: Warrost.4895

Warrost.4895

I played during stress test, firebrand felt super clunky and very squishy.

I really don’t understand this. I ran Seraph gear and didn’t feel squishy at all. The only time I died was when I tried to solo a bounty. But I’ve seen other people say it too. It’s weird.

I also played Firebrand during the stress test. I tried out two different builds: offensive DPS (Vipers) and defensive Support (Minstrel). I can’t say I had problems surviving. Open world isn’t exactly the pinnacle of hard content though.

Having permanent quickness felt really strong (especially with Stand your Ground) on a DPS build. Tome of Justice with Renewed Justice gives the Tome the ability to resume bursting on each new enemy. The Axe qualifies as a decent condition weapon. The only thing I didn’t like about it is that the Axe #3 doesn’t have a ground targeted animation like Ranger Axe #4 Path of Scars. Right now if I want to pull another add to my target I had to re-select my new target.

Using support with Tome of Resolve and Tome of Courage felt underwhelming. The Tomes didn’t bring anything I was already able to do with my core Guardian set up. I was able to survive Champions and large group of mobs with Mace+Shield / Staff. Once in a while I used Tome of Resolve #4 & #1 to burst heal myself but the heals are very dull and limited. No range, low radius, low coefficients. Tome of Courage is all right with the Legendary Lore trait that gives aegis, otherwise it’s just more of the same on a very long cool down.

The trait lines are pretty much straightforward. Grandmaster traits only have 1 viable option which is Loremaster. Stoic Demeanor doesn’t feel like a Grandmaster trait. Quickfire needs a slight boost in order to compete with Druid buffs.

I like the ammunition system on Mantra’s. The cone radius needs to go for supportive Mantra’s. This regards to Mantra of Potence, Mantra of Lore & Mantra of Liberation.

With these changes I believe Firebrand will have potential to become meta.

Tomes are kitten and thats why they need to be like engi kits, using skills whenever we want and not locked into spending all pages before going out. They need to have increased skill cd’s (f3 reflecting dome like 30 sec and worse skills with smaller cd’s) and tomes need to share pages with regen over time so its not abusable.

Now skills and abilities just contradict each other, mantras cone, tomes huge cd’s, tome huge cast time, melee oriented without movement speed boost, bad traits…

They are the worst example of bad resources system

  1. The virtues/tomes have a high cd for their reward
  2. The skills rely on pages, which don’t regenerate
  3. The tome skill themselves also have a cd

You have to pay three times a price for a reward.
That’s why many consider revenant’s system as bad, because you have to pay energy and cd for a skill, firebrand even three times a price.

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

They are the worst example of bad resources system

  1. The virtues/tomes have a high cd for their reward
  2. The skills rely on pages, which don’t regenerate
  3. The tome skill themselves also have a cd

You have to pay three times a price for a reward.
That’s why many consider revenant’s system as bad, because you have to pay energy and cd for a skill, firebrand even three times a price.

Actually FB has 4:

Huge Tome cd
Tome casting times
Tome skill casting times and cd
Pages

(5 if you divide tome skills cd and casting times)

:)

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Posted by: Warrost.4895

Warrost.4895

They are the worst example of bad resources system

  1. The virtues/tomes have a high cd for their reward
  2. The skills rely on pages, which don’t regenerate
  3. The tome skill themselves also have a cd

You have to pay three times a price for a reward.
That’s why many consider revenant’s system as bad, because you have to pay energy and cd for a skill, firebrand even three times a price.

Actually FB has 4:

Huge Tome cd
Tome casting times
Tome skill casting times and cd
Pages

(5 if you divide tome skills cd and casting times)

:)

It’s even better than I thought! On top of a small area of effect.

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

They are the worst example of bad resources system

  1. The virtues/tomes have a high cd for their reward
  2. The skills rely on pages, which don’t regenerate
  3. The tome skill themselves also have a cd

You have to pay three times a price for a reward.
That’s why many consider revenant’s system as bad, because you have to pay energy and cd for a skill, firebrand even three times a price.

Actually FB has 4:

Huge Tome cd
Tome casting times
Tome skill casting times and cd
Pages

(5 if you divide tome skills cd and casting times)

:)

It’s even better than I thought! On top of a small area of effect.

Yea that 240 taunt is clearly a winner

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Posted by: Selendile.9106

Selendile.9106

They are the worst example of bad resources system

  1. The virtues/tomes have a high cd for their reward
  2. The skills rely on pages, which don’t regenerate
  3. The tome skill themselves also have a cd

You have to pay three times a price for a reward.
That’s why many consider revenant’s system as bad, because you have to pay energy and cd for a skill, firebrand even three times a price.

Actually FB has 4:

Huge Tome cd
Tome casting times
Tome skill casting times and cd
Pages

(5 if you divide tome skills cd and casting times)

:)

It’s even better than I thought! On top of a small area of effect.

Yea that 240 taunt is clearly a winner

And the real kicker? They aren’t even worth it. ToR has kittenty healing power scaling and that taunt on ToC is just LMAO. Can anyone tell me why guardian, of all classes, doesn’t have more taunts? Geez, Mace AA 3rd strike should have a taunt. Or Mace symbol should pulse taunt enemies. SOMETHING.

- Sele

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Posted by: otto.5684

otto.5684

There is a major problem with FB, which is tomes. First, the tomes substitute your skill bar with the tome skill bar. In order for the tome to be stowed it must provide more damage or support than your weapon set and other tomes as well. This creates major competition over skill bar space, in which only the skill that does most damage or support will be utilized.

Second, the tomes skills themselves compete over their individual resource; pages. Only the skill dealing most damage or healing will end up being used.

Third, the tomes compete, together with FB as a whole, with DH line or virtues line. Considering that virtues do not compete with anything else over skill space, this further complicate things for tomes.

On top of all that, tomes compete with each other, since you can only stow one at a time. Virtues do not.

As a result, tomes must provide more damage or support than all other equipped weapons. They kinda have to be stronger than normal virtues. They must be more useful than other tomes (at least at the current moment they were stowed). And among the skills, probably just the most benefitail will end-up being spammed. Virtues only cost is CD (and small cast time for DH virtues), where tomes stowing comes at a substantial cost between losing skill bar and cast time. So far it has not been a good trade in neither PvP or PvE.

Numbers can and might be tweaked, but as things currently stand, there is little reason and too much risk to stow a tome (especially in PvP). And considering that we give up major sustain ability in taking FB over virtues, it does not look promising. Even if numbers are tweaked, it will end-up one skill spam from tome of justice and Celestial Avatar 2.0 with probably less support and healing, from the other two tomes.

The design is not sound.

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Posted by: Noah.4756

Noah.4756

There is a major problem with FB, which is tomes. First, the tomes substitute your skill bar with the tome skill bar. In order for the tome to be stowed it must provide more damage or support than your weapon set and other tomes as well. This creates major competition over skill bar space, in which only the skill that does most damage or support will be utilized.

I believe the developers have given Tomes of Justice a certain level of damage in order to temporary replace your weapon. For example. Tome of Justice skill #1 Searing Spell does 905 damage plus 3 seconds of burning and #4 Scorched Aftermatch does 2,495 (x5) damage plus 2 seconds of bleeding and burning (x5). You make a good point with regards to Tome of Resolve & Tome of Courage though. We sacrifice all of our damage in order to use the supportive Tomes. We get little in return.

Second, the tomes skills themselves compete over their individual resource; pages. Only the skill dealing most damage or healing will end up being used.

I don’t really see this as a problem. You receive enough pages in order to use every Tome skill at least once. The best skills have cool downs so it’s not like you can only spam the best ones.

Numbers can and might be tweaked, but as things currently stand, there is little reason and too much risk to stow a tome (especially in PvP). And considering that we give up major sustain ability in taking FB over virtues, it does not look promising. Even if numbers are tweaked, it will end-up one skill spam from tome of justice and Celestial Avatar 2.0 with probably less support and healing, from the other two tomes.

Celestial Avatar (CA) is a beast though. It will be hard for Tomes to beat that. CA basically has everything: PBAOE Heal + Daze (#3), Massive pulsating AOE heal that grants insane damage boost (#4), AOE CC (#5), Condition Cleanse (#2) and quick PBAOE Heal Spam (#1).

Meanwhile Tome of Resolve has no PBAOE (ground targeted) heals, no pulsating heal for party to recognize (people are underestimating this one), no damage buffs to compensate for not being able to use a weapon, locked behind a huge cool down (no consistency), small radius and slow charge up time.

(edited by Noah.4756)

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I believe the developers have given Tomes of Justice a certain level of damage in order to temporary replace your weapon. For example. Tome of Justice skill #1 Searing Spell does 905 damage plus 3 seconds of burning and #4 Scorched Aftermatch does 2,495 (x5) damage plus 2 seconds of bleeding and burning (x5). You make a good point with regards to Tome of Resolve & Tome of Courage though. We sacrifice all of our damage in order to use the supportive Tomes. We get little in return.

I think Tome 1 works fine as a “main weapon,” except that you can only make a few attacks, and no auto-attack, and then it’s done and you can’t use it anymore for half a minute. I think for Tome 1 to work ideally, it needs a #1 attack that you can spam without cost, like every other weapon in the game, and no maximum limit to the amount you can use the other spells before putting it away.

Balance them using their own cooldowns, like any other weapon attacks, and if necessary, treat pages more like Thief Initiative, where different attacks use different amounts of pages, but the pages regenerate over time and as procs off of traits and other effects, which limits how quickly you can use the biggest attacks, while still letting you cycle the weaker ones indefinitely.

And then for the other two tomes, just least them mostly as-is, but add some damage to 1-2 of the abilities, especially the #1, which should also be spammable, so that if you’re in Heal tome, it’s mostly good for healing, but can also do some chip damage like Ranger Celestial form, and same with Support tome.

You switch to the tome with the effects you want, without having to worry about putting them on long CDs, or having to put them away after a few uses.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Brutaly.6257

Brutaly.6257

One of the biggest issues (which i just seen two or thee posts about) for me is how you cancel a tome, either by using all pages (its fine) or by pressing the F-key again.

In pvp and wvw there is lag and i put the tomes on cd so many times just because the button didnt respond.

I would prefer the tomes to be:
Instant cast
No use of pages on skill 1, in all tomes
Skill 1 in all tomes has a damage component
Blast finisher on skill 2, in all tomes
Same cd as virtues on the tomes
And just rehash the virtues and place them on skill 5 and when you trigger the virtue you cancel the tome So If you use ToJ if you press 5 you get 3 stacks of bunirng, might, retaliation (if traited in virtues) and the tome is closed with a CD.

Add a 600 cone on mantras and that the healing mantra also heal allies.

If this was added it believe the FB would be good to go in all game modes.

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Posted by: hgkmaxymus.9321

hgkmaxymus.9321

What I think it is weird for a Condi+Healing spec, the axe symbol doesn’t have a support side! A lot of the other symbols (most of them, but not all) do damage but also gives a certain boon, regen, prot, etc… Axe symbol should give some boon too, after all it is a healing spec also!

This is MADNESS!!!

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Posted by: Arcaedus.7290

Arcaedus.7290

There is a major problem with FB, which is tomes. First, the tomes substitute your skill bar with the tome skill bar. In order for the tome to be stowed it must provide more damage or support than your weapon set and other tomes as well. This creates major competition over skill bar space, in which only the skill that does most damage or support will be utilized.

Good point. For 2 out 3 of the tomes I agree with you.

As of the demo weekend, ToJ most definitely provides far better burn application than anything guard has been capable of. Just an example of a simple burst you can put out:

Legendary Lore traited; enter ToJ (before battle). 5 —> precast 4 —> JI —> 1 —> exit tome (geomancy proc) —> torch 4 (if you have it) —> spam axe auto. This puts on 15-18 stacks of burning covered up by 3-5 bleed stacks.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

ToR definitely seems like its the least of the three tomes. I wouldn’t be surprised if its scaling is because of specific testing in multi-Firebrand situations. However, that does make it feel lackluster in solo-FB play.

I think Tome cast time, cooldown, and page interactions should be adjusted. Weaker effects at higher frequency would be my preference to the current state of things. I also wouldn’t mind “paying for the recharge” beforehand in an initiative-like page system that starts at 0 instead of max.

Fishsticks

(edited by Ghotistyx.6942)

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Posted by: Tenrai Senshi.2017

Tenrai Senshi.2017

I played during stress test, firebrand felt super clunky and very squishy.

I really don’t understand this. I ran Seraph gear and didn’t feel squishy at all. The only time I died was when I tried to solo a bounty. But I’ve seen other people say it too. It’s weird.

It’s mostly a matter of a lack of recovery and active defense. Surviving short encounters is fine because generally speaking, you don’t take enough damage to notice a lack of recovery, and usually trash mobs are dead before they can kill you, but in longer encounters it becomes much more of an issue.

Giving up DH means giving up a very strong heal in purification (around 8000 life on a 24 second cooldown) and Wings of Resolve (around 4000 life on a 21 second cooldown if traited). What you get in return is a very underwhelming Tome of Resolve which can barely match the healing of Wings of Resole after casting all the skills (and that doesn’t have the added benefit of offering mobility), and a mantra that restores 6000 life after blowing all three charges, after which you have to deal with a reasonable cooldown and a long cast time.

Couple that with the fact that you’re giving up active defenses such as blocks from focus (because you’re probably using torch for burn build) blinds from sword/greatsword (because you are using axe) and shield of courage, and it means that you’re really being hammered down as far as personal survival goes.

Guardians as it is have always had low base health, but they usually make up for it with quality active defenses and recovery. However, firebrand gives up a lot of that and doesn’t offer much in return as far as survival goes. Sure you could go for meditations, or swap for power weapons and use a focus, etc, but if you’re trying to use firebrand for one of the new builds it brings, with more of a focus on pure support or condition builds with mantras, then you’re going to have a much harder time, especially going into high level content such as raids or T4 fractals.

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Posted by: phokus.8934

phokus.8934

We have 2 1/2 weeks before we see the elite spec changes. Here’s to those who are holding their breath.

I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

We have 2 1/2 weeks before we see the elite spec changes. Here’s to those who are holding their breath.

I dont expect anything good to be honest, we have seen how they treat guardians in those 5 years of existence, new proof is staff auto. Saddly we dont have class dev that could make something out of it.

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Posted by: Shadowshear.2095

Shadowshear.2095

I can’t find where Anet said this, but I remember them giving a reason why they decided to rework Firebrand and core Mesmer mantras using the ammo system.

I remember the reasoning being because the stock system they used previously resulting in mantras with only 1 charge left at the end of a battle leaving the player with a choice of either going into the next fight underloaded, or just blowing the last charge on nothing, waiting out the cooldown, and then reloading.

They said they didn’t like this, so thats why they gave them recovering ammo, so if you didnt spend your whole mantra, the charge would regenerate.

Now my point is, don’t the Firebrand tomes use the exact same mechanic as old mantras? The one they got rid of because they didnt like how they worked?

Granted the tomes are suped up mantras, with 5 to 8 charges and 5 different activated effects, but the core function is identical, and so that same problem exists. I finish a battle with 2 pages left in my courage tome, I can just waste them by stowing the tome, or I can go into next battle with only 2 courage pages left (that I must use prior to any weapon skills) and risk the tome being on CD when I need it.

Many people have gone back and forth, saying tomes are clunky, or that they are fine, or that they are underpowered or balanced, and we just need to git gud.

But the core of the issue is that Arenanet has already said they dislike this mechanic and have already removed it once. Makes me wonder if the inclusion in Firebrand tomes might just be an oversight…

Anyhow, just food for thought.

For the record, I’m in camp “use thief initiative”

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

I can’t find where Anet said this, but I remember them giving a reason why they decided to rework Firebrand and core Mesmer mantras using the ammo system.

I remember the reasoning being because the stock system they used previously resulting in mantras with only 1 charge left at the end of a battle leaving the player with a choice of either going into the next fight underloaded, or just blowing the last charge on nothing, waiting out the cooldown, and then reloading.

They said they didn’t like this, so thats why they gave them recovering ammo, so if you didnt spend your whole mantra, the charge would regenerate.

Now my point is, don’t the Firebrand tomes use the exact same mechanic as old mantras? The one they got rid of because they didnt like how they worked?

Granted the tomes are suped up mantras, with 5 to 8 charges and 5 different activated effects, but the core function is identical, and so that same problem exists. I finish a battle with 2 pages left in my courage tome, I can just waste them by stowing the tome, or I can go into next battle with only 2 courage pages left (that I must use prior to any weapon skills) and risk the tome being on CD when I need it.

Many people have gone back and forth, saying tomes are clunky, or that they are fine, or that they are underpowered or balanced, and we just need to git gud.

But the core of the issue is that Arenanet has already said they dislike this mechanic and have already removed it once. Makes me wonder if the inclusion in Firebrand tomes might just be an oversight…

Anyhow, just food for thought.

For the record, I’m in camp “use thief initiative”

Problem is they dont know what to do with guardians, they never did. They just slap some cd nerf or buff. Or make some elite spec mess and then try to recover it for 2,3 years after that. There is no dedicated Guardian dev. You can see that from the trait synergy, there are probably none. Firebrand is more of a mess than DH was.

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Posted by: Brutaly.6257

Brutaly.6257

Firebrand is more of a mess than DH was.

Have to disagree, i find the traits to be logical and diverse tbh even though the upper row needs a serious buff.

What is messed up is the implementation (mainly casting times, cd, amount of healing and cones) of FB but i think its more of a numbers game for FB to be in a very good spot (pun intended).

The only major thing that cant be fixed with slight adjustments to numbers is the lack of active defenses and/or mobility. This will be an issue in pvp/wvw, the FB will never ever be in the right spot when the team needs frontline support since it cant sustain there and it cant move there.

FB needs a disengage and even more then vanilla guardian.