Guild Wars 2

With the sky rocket in price of the Superior Rune of Exuberance (From 12g~13g for 6 runes pre-patch to a massive 71g~72g for 6 runes), has anyone used this rune with the new Force of Will trait? Assuming Guardians are the reason why this rune exploded in price with the new trait and the fact that crit damage got nerfed.

Well I’m currently running Berserker Draconic and Runes of exuberance
I find the raw stat quite nice and it seems to be noticeably higher stats than my previous (strength)

I run shout Guardian so yeah, it fits, just charge in with swiftness and hack n slash

2/0/0/6/6 Greatsword/Hammer

its a garbage runeset, the benefits are so minor vs. others that focus on useful like trooper

You know whats my favourite rune in my healway? Vamp, 6th bonus mist too good.

I wouldn’t recommend Exuberance either. They are extremely expensive for what you get. The conversion rate on the stats is very minor.

If you can get your vitality up enough they can provide some decent returns but other rune sets might be a better overall choice.

I have theory crafted a build that is delivering 2K power, 3K armor, 29% crit chance(with accuracy for one weapon) , 174% crit dmg, 850 healing and a whooping 26K health before adding in WvW guard stacks and any kill stacks but its expensive to make so I am not sure its worth it and trooper or another rune might be a better choice.

The other nice thing about a big vit and toughness pool is it makes those consumables deliver a bit more.

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

Charak.9761:

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

Well the armor soft cap might be 2700 and so armor above 2700 is subject to diminishing returns but armor above 2700 does still help which is why most guardian support builds tend to look for 3K… and I thought we were talking about vitality pools anyway due to the topic? those runes only work on vit.

Any offensive skill that takes advantage of a % of health pool remaining to do more damage still has to act on a bigger remaining health pool so any % increase is negated. Its working as a % after all so there is no difference beyond having a bigger pool or a bigger half pool or a bigger quarter pool. Maybe I misunderstand you, if so please explain.

Of course if you do not have enough healing to keep your pool topped up as much as possible then the points might be better spent elsewhere. its all about building the most efficient stat distribution for the role you want to fill in my opinion anyway.

I agree that those runes don’t look good unless you have a huge vit pool and having a huge vit pool might not be the most efficient stat distribution for your build.

Charak.9761:

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

No. There’s no armor soft cap, hard cap, or break points in this game. I can give you the math for why, but I’m hoping you’ll take my word for it instead.

After playing around with rune choices in my theory crafted build then even with a huge vitality pool pack runes are a better choice.

They deliver almost the same stat benefits as Exuberance apart from the healing (which was 75 points in my build) and also give swiftness, fury and might bonuses to the team and myself. The swiftness boon duration bonus is also a nice addition for guardians. Pack is a much better choice if you want some power and precision stat bonuses.

Now if they made Exuberance 5%, 10% 15% then it would be worth it but probably OP if you stacked vitality (420 power…) . Maybe 4/8/12 would be a good compromise. 3/5/7 is just not worth it even with a massive vitality pool.

After creating a full ascended PVT armor set for WvW(!), adding exuberance runes for ~60g and running around with 30k HP (inc. stacks)…

…I turned 180 degrees, theorycrafted a nice dps/tank hybrid build, got the stuff and like it much more. Simple reason: if you get your positioning done, you can survive easily with coordinated people on TS. If not and you get stuck, hammer stuns chained onto you while dazed, no available stat combo will keep you alive. So better kill your enemy instead of sucking all the damage and hitting like a mild summer breeze. Get the health/toughness pool you feel comfortable with, rest should be spent on optimizing dps/support, so no place for exuberance with medium health pool. Just my 2 cents about exuberance in WvW…
As for PvE, it is dps only so exuberance has no place there, PvP I never tried tanky builds so cannot tell, cheers!

Kreen.3925:

Charak.9761:

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

Well the armor soft cap might be 2700 and so armor above 2700 is subject to diminishing returns…

Armor above 0 is subject to diminishing returns, honestly do you people just completely make up the stuff that you post on this forum?

Waffler.1257:

Kreen.3925:

Charak.9761:

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

Well the armor soft cap might be 2700 and so armor above 2700 is subject to diminishing returns…

Armor above 0 is subject to diminishing returns, honestly do you people just completely make up the stuff that you post on this forum?

No, it doesn’t. Armor scales linearly regardless of how much you have. There is no diminishing returns.

Edit: Okay, let’s put this one to bed. Damage is divided by armor, meaning doubling your armor doubles your damage reduction. That’s a proportional relationship. As such, you can say that Health * Armor aka Effective Health is an important relationship too, because of the following:

When you say that 1000 damage / 20 armor = 50 damage, you also say that 1000 health * 20 armor = 20,000 effective health. This looks strange on its face, but it isn’t. 20 hits times 1000 damage = 20,000 damage. In other words what is being said is that a person who has 20,000 effective health requires that an enemy whose damage before armor is 1000 must hit you twenty times in order for you to die. 50 damage * 20 hits = 1000 damage as well, so it all works out.

Now double your armor.

1000 damage / 40 armor = 25 damage. 1000 HP * 40 armor = 40,000. Twenty points of armor is “worth” exactly the same amount of effective health regardless of how much you began with. If there were diminishing returns, you would have less than 40,000 EHP. But there isn’t because it’s all proportional.

You can do this all day, even with random numbers that aren’t strict doubling. 1000 / 67 = 14.92. 1000 HP * 67 = 67,000. The difference between 40 and 67 is 27. 67,000 is 27,000 higher than 40,000. An enemy would have to hit you 67 times at 1000 damage in order to kill you, 27 times more than 40.

All of this is to say that every point of armor is worth exactly the same amount of effective HP for any given amount of starting armor and HP. Therefore armor does not decrease in effectiveness the more you have.

The way to think about armor is not in terms of damage reduction. The way to think about armor is in terms of total hits required to kill you. The number of hits required to kill you scales 100% linearly with armor. The damage reduction % does appear to slow down the more you have, but that does not translate to a slowing of the number of hits it takes to kill you. That number is always, always linear, and it’s the only one that truly matters.

foofad.5162:

Waffler.1257:

Kreen.3925:

Charak.9761:

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

Well the armor soft cap might be 2700 and so armor above 2700 is subject to diminishing returns…

Armor above 0 is subject to diminishing returns, honestly do you people just completely make up the stuff that you post on this forum?

No, it doesn’t. Armor scales linearly regardless of how much you have. There is no diminishing returns.

Study the graph of 1/x carefully, now realize that your entire wall of text is irrelevant in light of how completely false your first three sentences are. The marginal benefit of armor decreases as you increase armor regardless of the armor level, that is the definition of diminishing returns.

Waffler.1257:

Kreen.3925:

Charak.9761:

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

Well the armor soft cap might be 2700 and so armor above 2700 is subject to diminishing returns…

Armor above 0 is subject to diminishing returns, honestly do you people just completely make up the stuff that you post on this forum?

I am not making anything up, the chap I answered said there was a soft cap in response to a post I made. I don’t think there is but rather than abuse him I just said well if there is its still going to deliver some benefit above his 2700 soft cap hence why I was aiming for 3k myself.

Honestly do you people just completely not read stuff properly and so go off on the wrong person when you post on this forum?…….

Waffler.1257:

foofad.5162:

Waffler.1257:

Kreen.3925:

Charak.9761:

The armor soft cap is 2700

Also, having just a bunch of vit is BAD… some classes take advantage of the % missing health and do more dmg to you.

Well the armor soft cap might be 2700 and so armor above 2700 is subject to diminishing returns…

Armor above 0 is subject to diminishing returns, honestly do you people just completely make up the stuff that you post on this forum?

No, it doesn’t. Armor scales linearly regardless of how much you have. There is no diminishing returns.

Study the graph of 1/x carefully, now realize that your entire wall of text is irrelevant in light of how completely false your first three sentences are. The marginal benefit of armor decreases as you increase armor regardless of the armor level, that is the definition of diminishing returns.

I am happy to consider a counterpoint if any when you produce one. There is absolutely nothing about what I posted that is factually incorrect as far as I am aware, and if you would be so kind as to point out where and how I have made an error I will be glad to address it.

If you would actually read my post, you would see that I acknowledge that 1/x appears to produce “diminishing returns” but in point of fact what is diminishing has absolutely no bearing on the actual gameplay effect. You do not actually gain less benefit the further out you are on the x plane. You do gain less damage reduction per point of toughness but that doesn’t matter because the increase in damage reduction still translates to a linear increase in survivability as a function of increased effective HP and total number of hits to kill.

foofad.5162:

You do not actually gain less benefit the further out you are on the x plane.

foofad.5162:

You do gain less damage reduction per point of toughness

The only benefit that toughness provides in this game is direct damage reduction. I hope you can see how you are contradicting yourself.

All I can really say is read my post because you still don’t get it. Damage reduction leads to taking more hits before you die, and the number of hits it takes to kill you scales linearly as damage reduction increases even when damage reduction seems to increase at a slower rate per point as you add more toughness.

Until you actually subvert that line of reasoning with some math, you’re not making any headway at all.

Waffler.1257:

foofad.5162:

You do not actually gain less benefit the further out you are on the x plane.

foofad.5162:

You do gain less damage reduction per point of toughness

The only benefit that toughness provides in this game is direct damage reduction. I hope you can see how you are contradicting yourself.

And I hope you can see how you only cherry pick parts of Foo’s lines to try to prove your point. Use his whole post or provide some actual proof instead of just taking half of lines that suit your needs.

I’m sure there’s a way to put it that’s more cogent than the way that I wrote it out. Here’s a slightly better way of putting it:

The formula for damage is that the HP change = damage (which is skill coefficient * weapon damage * power, aka a big number) / armor. This is the same as saying 1/x, as was pointed out. 1/x is indeed a hyperbola, suggesting that as x increases y decreases at a slower and slower rate.

HP Reduction = Damage / Armor is the same thing as saying that Armor * HP Change = Damage, because algebra. Armor * HP Change is a linear function. It’s the same thing as saying 1 * x, which is a straight line. Armor * HP Change can be thought of instead as Effective HP in this incarnation. What Effective HP is saying is that your weapon damage before armor comes into play must be greater than this to kill you.

So let’s use actual numbers now.

Let’s pretend we’re using a skill that has a 1.0 coefficient, with a weapon that does 950 damage on average, and a character that has 2000 power. That means you’re doing 1*950*2000 damage on a strike, or 1,900,000 damage. (Does the massive damage to critters make more sense now?) For a 2127 armor character (a heavy armor character with 0 toughness) that means the change in HP is = 1,900,000/2127 which is 893.28 damage.

When we think about damage reduction, what we’re really saying is “damage reduction versus a standard light armor character with 0 toughness,” which is 1836. In that case, the damage reduction is thought of as 13.68%, because 2127 is that much greater than 1836. As your toughness increases, and thus your armor increases, your damage reduction appears to slow down again as a result of 1/x (1836/x in this case) being a hyperbola.

Fortunately, that doesn’t matter; Because as we already established, Armor * HP is Effective Health. For a 10,000 HP character with 1836 armor, your EHP is 18,360,000. Our 1,900,000 damage strike would have to hit us 9.66 (in reality, 10) times in order to knock us out. If we bump our armor up to 2127 though, we now have 21,270,000 EHP, and that same strike would need to hit us 11.19 (in reality, 12) times in order to knock us out. That’s a linear increase, and totally not subject to any kind of diminishing returns.

And this makes perfect sense, because from 9.66 to 11.19 is a change of 13%, because we added 13% more armor. If you add 50% more armor, say from 1836 to 2754, you can now take that 1,900,000 hit 14.49 times, or 50% more times than before.

So: Increase in EHP is linear, ergo increase in number of hits required to kill you is linear, thus there is no diminishing returns for investment in armor.

meanwhile…

conditions ignore your armour and is the current meta of dmg.

Charak.9761:

meanwhile…

conditions ignore your armour and is the current meta of dmg.

Conditions also run on their own set of rules and can be negated completely through removal or lessened by duration reduction. Also they are only the “meta” in sPvP, and considering this thread was originally based on runes that are not even available in sPvP, the point is kinda moot.

I found this thread, made the build and now – if I run meditations in WvW for roaming – I cannot die. My stats make warriors go

With a full ascended Sentinel’s armor/weapon set, PVT trinkets, 0/0/4/6/4 support build (with Force of Will), and 250 vitality from WvW mastery, you’d have 2904 vitality, and Runes of Exuberance would give you 203 power, 145 precision, and 87 healing power. The problem is making use of that precision and/or healing power and getting anywhere w/o quickly losing the vitality.

With Bowl of Lemongrass Poultry Soup, Superior Sharpening Stone, Bloodlust stacks, and WvW mastery, a full power variant can get you 2626 power, 3282 armor, 30685 health, and 387 healing. You’d only have 17%/163% crit stats.

You could also go with some crit, using Master Maintenance Oil, Perception stacks, and using Cavaliers accessories/Berserker rings, you’d have 2078 power, 45%/180% crit stats, 3208 armor, 28125 health, and 379 healing.

Both are using 0/0/4/6/4 and accounting for Strength in Numbers. I’ve also been looking at how to use these runes effectively, especially considering the WvW bonus.

Personally, if I go for ascended Sentinel’s, I’ll probably build somewhere between the above. The one I have saved now has ~2400 power, 33%/180% crit, 1940 toughness (3200 armor), 2600 vit (27600 health), and the same ~380 healing (all buffs considered). With Accuracy on my greatsword, it’ll be at 40% crit chance.