Guild Wars 2

I unintentionally gear CD just cuz those are the exotics that fell in my lap. I would also like to point out CD gear usually is paired with vitality. This makes your guardian stay alive when taking those big spike AoE hits. When all the zerkers go down. Now you can cast wall of reflection or bubble to res your teammates……who’s useless now…..

Obtena.7952:

I’m not sure if there is a comprehension problem here. Unless I’m being too subtle, I believe I have already said that burning builds excel in soloing. I never claimed burning builds are good for grouping. In fact, I agree that they suck in that situation for the reasons you and everyone else have already listed. In solo play, burning isn’t impacted by its restrictions as a condition damage type.

Focusing on a burning build for solo farming is an additional, reliable and consistent damage output for the kinds of mobs you will encounter. I guess if having the equivalent of a second weapon hitting for 650-700 per second ‘sucks’, so be it.

Wrong again. I’ve already pointed out it does not excel in soloing and why.

You are just spreading misinformation by pretending that condition build for guardians has anything to offer over the actual viable alternatives, which it doesn’t.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not sure if there is a comprehension problem here. Unless I’m being too subtle, I believe I have already said that burning builds excel in soloing. I never claimed burning builds are good for grouping. In fact, I agree that they suck in that situation for the reasons you and everyone else have already listed. In solo play, burning isn’t impacted by its restrictions as a condition damage type.

Focusing on a burning build for solo farming is an additional, reliable and consistent damage output for the kinds of mobs you will encounter. I guess if having the equivalent of a second weapon hitting for 650-700 per second ‘sucks’, so be it.

There is indeed a comprehension problem, most notably in your definition of the words “excel” and/or “suck”. Those 650-700dps you list are

1. not even true, or an exaggeration for most cases,
2. not sustained, making the real dps even lower,
3. not aoe,
4. only a slight advantage over the 333 damage ticks a build that doesn’t even give a crap about burning will get out of burning regardless.

It really only “excels” in single mob, slow farming pve if you measure it by it’s own standards, which doesn’t change the fact that it still universally sucks, and only sucks slightly less if you compare it to the alternatives.

Kangataz.6842:

I unintentionally gear CD just cuz those are the exotics that fell in my lap. I would also like to point out CD gear usually is paired with vitality. This makes your guardian stay alive when taking those big spike AoE hits. When all the zerkers go down. Now you can cast wall of reflection or bubble to res your teammates……who’s useless now…..

That is not even an argument. You could use soldier’s and have better damage and better survivability at the same time, or l2p, use zerker’s and actually be useful.
And using random exotics because they just “fell in your lap” disqualifies you for the discussion about what works best anyway.

find below a simple dps comparison (maybe too simple, point out some flaws if you find them. I am not sure if i got all stat right but if i didnt i screwed them up equally) regardless of build/traits.

As far as all those +% on damage tools you mentioned (wintermute). They are benefitting a power focused build more.. but thats it! a burn build can take all those traits too and will compensate. And if you look at optenas sig – this build utelizes all of them. Also I think we can all agree that any burn build will have crit chance and crit damage simply through radiance and valor which are essential. please also consider that knockdown, protection & blind will decrease your “power dps” greatly while it completely leaves brun damage untouched. lots of ifs and buts that will make a comparison even more difficult so i leave them out for now.

sigils:
you have valid points on this too. but i can counter: consider this: 5% more damage sigil vs. geomancy. in a conditon heavy build this will ramp up your dps by 240+ thats close to 20% damage increase and its pbaoe on top of that.

the comparison gives both builds the credit to apply burning constantly which, as you pointed out, is not that easy as many people make it to be if you do not trait a little for it – given that GS auto attack only procs 14,4 times a minute with passive VoJ. even sword alone can not keep a target on constant burn.

Greatsword – damage per chain on a 2600 toughness target – base stat

916*1047.5*(0.8+0.8+1.2)/2600 = 1033.32
—————————————————

Greatsword – damage per chain – carrion power/CD stats

1486*1047.5*(0.8+0.8+1.2)/2600 = 1676.32 (total swing chain)
1676,32*74/(60*3) = 689,15

condition damage: 534 per second

689,15 + 534 = 1222,9

Greatsword – damage per chain – knights power stat (with emeralds)

1411*1047.5*(0.8+0.8+1.2)/2600 = 1.591,72
1.591,72*74/(60*3) = 654,37

crit damage dps increase
654,37* (((0.50 + 1/100) * (27,29/100)) + 1) = 745,44

condition damage: 0
burn damage: 328 per second

745,44 + 328 = 1.073,44

carrion over knights
dps increase assuming 100% uptime on burn: 12%
trade off damage reduction: -21%
effective hp: 4497 hp – *24%*

in the same matter i did soldiers and berserker. i provide calculation if needed.

carrion over berserker
dps decrease assuming 100% uptime on burn: 12%
trade off damage reduction: nothing
trade off effective hp: -4497 hp > *- 24%*

note that the damage increase should be expected with 3 offensive stats

carrion over soldiers
dps increase assuming 100% uptime on burn: 8%
trade off damage reduction: -16%
vitality: nothing

again: i am not stating that a condition damage build on a guardian is OP. i am not denying that the problem of multiple burn sources is a problem. (imo a very small one really)

i just try to contradict the (imo) false statements that burn ist “total crap”, and CD is not viable in any situation.

i wouldn’t invest so much time in this thread if i wasnt very confident about the result of a condition damage based build.

by the way you can get to 650 burn damage but its not easy and you can always argue that you can boost power in the same matter.

investing in condition damage simply spreads you dps output in to two more equal parts. yes it can be removed but direct damage can be mitigated.

@deathpanel: calling out people to spread wrong information requires proof. i gave proof for my argument (and i guess obtena is more or less with me). i like to see yours now.

cheers

p.s.: btw – my burns are pbaoe. by the time the pbaoe damage runs out all mobs are dead. so it does not excel on one target. i might do a video to show the effect maybe that more helpful then more trash talk.

Asmodal.6489:

find below a simple dps comparison (maybe too simple, point out some flaws if you find them. I am not sure if i got all stat right but if i didnt i screwed them up equally) regardless of build/traits.

As far as all those +% on damage tools you mentioned (wintermute). They are benefitting a power focused build more.. but thats it! a burn build can take all those traits too and will compensate. And if you look at optenas sig – this build utelizes all of them. Also I think we can all agree that any burn build will have crit chance and crit damage simply through radiance and valor which are essential. please also consider that knockdown, protection & blind will decrease your “power dps” greatly while it completely leaves brun damage untouched. lots of ifs and buts that will make a comparison even more difficult so i leave them out for now.

sigils:
you have valid points on this too. but i can counter: consider this: 5% more damage sigil vs. geomancy. in a conditon heavy build this will ramp up your dps by 240+ thats close to 20% damage increase and its pbaoe on top of that.
.

Thanks for not dismissing my points entirely, and seeing these calculations, I can see how you arrived at your points. I do, however not find your numbers plausible at all, and your mistakes seem to skew the calculations greatly in favor of condition damage.

You seem to arrive at rougly ~1400 dps overall for berserker’s if I read your numbers right, which is far, far off. The true number for a dps optimized farming build is in fact more like ~2600dps, which is not accounting for neither burns nor stacking sigils and temporary buffs!

For detailed calculations, see here .

Those calculations were done for fulll berserker’s and and optimal dps builds, a pure pve farming build might want a little more utility and defense in traits, if you are so inclined, but they are certainly a lot closer to what a power build can achieve under realistic circumstances.

In essence, you are greatly underestimating the power dps component since it seems your attack speed numbers are not correct and by wrongfully only taking auto attack into account as well. Not ever using whirlwind, or symbol is not realistic in any case, for any build.
Furthermore, you seem to not account for either the active +x% damage traits, nor the passive effects of the traitlines at all (AH builds have +30% crit damage, among others), neither do you count self buffs, which would surely get used at least when you switch them out for even more damage.

The effective hp part is also a bit misleading because the assumed gear composition is not optimal; in practice you are always better off with at least berserker jewels in your accessories, and you could take knight’s on chest, legs and helmet to get a better crit damage per toughness point ratio instead of full knight’s.
Also, ah and empowering might for would increase your effective survivability in groups greatly, but this again is for groups mostly, I just mention it because I personally do not see effective hp as a noticeable sacrifice in outdoor pve anyway when you can have a constant stream of protection and blinds on your enemy, but this might be subjective.

hi wintermute,

my calculations are only auto attack damage without any traits and stat points from builds for good reason. i do not want to have a discussion about the right build in terms of the dps comparison. if i took that into account i would argue that your non burn build does not have 100% burn uptime because you do not focus on it and then what? do i give you 50% uptime? 30%. That wouldnt make sense. i really only tried to simplify it(probably too much) and work up from there – didnt think I would have to this fast. :-)

my berserker autoattack dps: 806,49
since in your thread the pvp amulet is used for calculation + 50 power from zeal the diffrence is understandable. note that he assuems 100% uptime on burn to utelize 10% fiery wrath.

i still would always compare it on the exact same build – otherwise we are getting nowhere.

your link takes it a step further and i will redo the calculations when i get home based on this thread. (base damage)

it still does not matter what empowering might and AH does for surviveabilty. you can spec these things on burn build as well. mine has 30 valor so 30% crit damge is what i get too. i agree with you that a guardian can pretty much negate all defensive by simply using blocks, dodges and blinds. that only works as long as you only take on 1-3 opponents.

so lets leave it on dps comparison for the moment.

So calculation done.

First of all I could no recreate the logic behind WW damage calculation. several tests in the mists showed me that WW is not reliable. i had occasions where only 8 hits where applied even standing inside the puppet and one hit of the projectiles on a diffrent puppet. I never got more then 10 hits. then again the comabt log is just plain awful. because of that I redid the numbers according to the tooltip. In addition i couldn’t figure out how the damage was approx. anyways. :p. I think it won’t matter in the big picture.

Second of all the damage multiplier is done wrong in the thread shown. One has to do the +x% damage multipliers first and then the increase through crit damage/chance – just a minor flaw.

Third of all Binding Blade ticks are increased by conditon damage. power has no effect at all. conversion seems to be a little less then 0,2. base without any CD is 160.

without further ado:

Build: 20/30/20/0/0
berserk amulet, divinity runes

Auto: 677 + 677 + 1016 = 2370 total, 2370/2.5 = 948/s
WW = 2853 total, 2853/2.5 = 1141,2/s – 948 = 193,2 / 12.5 = 15,456/s
Symbol = 2330 total, 2330 – 948 = 1382 net, 1382 / 21 = 65.8/s
Bind = 847 + 2390 = 3237 total, 3237 – 948 = 2289 net, 2289 / 31 = 73.8/s

DPS = 1103.06 Base
Total Multiplier = x 1.1 × 1.1 × 1.05x1.01 = 1,283
1415,45 x [1 + (0.55 × 1.02)] = 2209,52
2209,52 + 328 + 77,5 = 2615,02 total dps

Build: 20/30/20/0/0
carrion amulet, divinity runes

Auto: 587 + 587 + 881 = 2055 total, 2055/2.5 = 822/s
WW = 2475 total, 2475/2.5 = 990/s – 822 = 168 net, 168 / 12.5 = 13,44/s
Symbol = 2020 total, 2020 – 822 = 1198 net, 1198 / 21 = 57.05/s
Bind = 734 + 4250 = 4984 total, 4984 – 822 = 4162 net, 4162 / 31 = 134,26/s

DPS = 1026,75 Base
Total Multiplier = x 1.1 × 1.1 x1.01 = 1,222 (I removed sigil of force for geomancy)
1254,8 x [1 + (0,22 × 0,87)] = 1494,7
1494,7 + 328 + 308,25 + 312,45 = 2443,4 total dps

note: 312,45 is the damage from 3 bleed stacks i was generous and gave me 100% uptime and did not factor in the direct damage from the sigil

so … full zerker stats vs. carrion gives a “only” 6,6 % damage increase.

I think doing other stat combos is not necessary. they will be outdamaged with ease.

If you with me on the calculation? If yes we can talk about usefulness in general and set aside the dps argument. because to me this is a viable result. it also means that with binding blade i can apply a total of 1373 damage over time on 5 targets around me which mitght be abel to give a condition build the upper hand in a 1 vs 5 situation.

wintermute.4096:

There is indeed a comprehension problem, most notably in your definition of the words “excel” and/or “suck”. Those 650-700dps you list are

1. not even true, or an exaggeration for most cases,
2. not sustained, making the real dps even lower,
3. not aoe,
4. only a slight advantage over the 333 damage ticks a build that doesn’t even give a crap about burning will get out of burning regardless.

That’s an interesting interpretation given from someone who doesn’t use a burning build. Using the build in my sig for PVE solo farming, I get over 600 DPS just from the burning. With food, full corruption stack and full carrion trinkets, it’s over 700. Also, my minimum burning duration is 8 seconds. That’s much longer than the mobs I am fighting live for. That’s all that is necessary for PVE farming. If I really wanted to, it could be 10 with food, but that’s not needed. These aren’t exaggerations. This is my every day burning damage and durations for my PVE farming, depending on how I want to tweak the setup that day. Considering the amount of HP a typical mob you would farm in Orr has, I would say that’sa significant increase from the base burn everyone has access to. I guess that’s just me though.

No it’s not AOE but interestingly enough, it can be if one decides to trait for that.

wintermute.4096:

It really only “excels” in single mob, slow farming pve if you measure it by it’s own standards, which doesn’t change the fact that it still universally sucks, and only sucks slightly less if you compare it to the alternatives.

I’ve already acknowledged that burning builds are limited in their usefulness to solo PVE farming multiple times now.

wintermute.4096:

For detailed calculations, see here .

Those calculations were done for fulll berserker’s and and optimal dps builds, a pure pve farming build might want a little more utility and defense in traits, if you are so inclined, but they are certainly a lot closer to what a power build can achieve under realistic circumstances.

just realized that the calculation in the thread posted have another flaw. Damage over time portion of binding blade (46,7 dps) are factored in for damage multipliers and crit chance/damage which do not effect them. This will favor condition builds too but we can neglect that. it simply shows that calculations are overall difficult and still show optimized numbers which will realistically never happen.

since you are on solo pve

- On a power build a dodge roll is a bigger dps sink
- Protection on the target is a 33% dps sink
- Knockdowns, Stuns, dazes are dps sinks

all these fators are compensated a lot better on a burn build.

a power build can effectively damage less targets then a burn centered build which will use at least shattered aegis and the trait JI and maybe purging flames. these can easily achieve obtenas 7secs+ pbaoe burn if you add then sigil of geomancy, binding blade dps increase you have a lot of 360 degrees damage where a power build can only rely on a higher damage of WW to compensate.

next chapter: burn builds in groups

Asmodal.6489:

So calculation done.

[…]

It looks like you’re just using the tooltips in Heart of the Mists to make those calculations, which isn’t a very reliable indicator for actual PvE. We should be able to agree that a condition damage Guardian build isn’t viable in group content, where your burns will get delayed and diluted by fellow Guardians, Engis, Eles, VoJ on teammates, etc. So all we’re addressing here is solo PvE. I ran some numbers of my own, using this spreadsheet created by another player.

Many of the assumptions you make aren’t reasonable, such as using Sigil of Force. In solo content you’ll be better off with a Sigil of Bloodlust. I’ll leave those in place, though, and just use http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/ to calculate the stats for a full set of Berserker’s or Carrion exotics (and Divinity runes, to stay consistent).

Approximate raw stats:
Berserker’s: 5030 Effective Power, 360 Condition Damage
Carrion: 2850 Effective Power, 1360 Condition Damage

I’m not going to get into the complexities of rotations here, but only look at the damage of the GS autoattack with 100% uptime on burning (and 3 stacks of bleeding for the Carrion build):

Berserker’s: 2278 direct dps + 418 condition dps = 2696 total dps
Carrion: 1267 direct dps + 998 condition dps = 2235 total dps

The Carrion build does only 83% of the DPS of the Berserker’s build, and that’s only with autoattacks. Adding in other skills will tilt the balance even further toward the Berserker’s build. The Berserker’s will also have better burst, which is particularly noticeable in solo PvE due to the frequent downtime between fights, and better ranged damage, since it doesn’t rely on Sigil of the Geomancer or AoE burns as much.

The Berserker’s build will also scale much better than the Carrion build. Power, precision, and critical damage all multiply the effectiveness of one another, while condition damage only scales with duration (and we’ve already assumed 100% uptime). Might, Fury, Retaliation, and Vulnerability will all add more damage to the Berserker’s build than to the Carrion one, as will consumables and Ascended gear.

If you just prefer the feel of condition damage builds, you won’t be entirely useless if you’re playing alone. The weaker your gear the less noticeable the difference will be. Make no mistake, though: if you care about optimizing your effectiveness, Carrion is not the way to go.

First of all I do not care about optimizing dps. i care about the generalisation that a guardian build that focuses on burn is total crap, sucks not viable and so on.

i am only going into calcualtions because no one else does. i even compare carrion to berserker which has three offensive stats where carrion only has two – I would always expect berserkl to deal more damage.

I have two lvl 80 guardians one is heavy carrion and the other full berserker. I know its viable from direct game experience. solo pve and spvp.

I use what people throw at me. i used wintermutes thread because he said my calculation is off and i have to compare actual ingame dps. now you do the same so look into yours. (i cant download the spreadsheet though – is there some trick to it? and if not can you post a link to one with carrion gear?)

i am not on the same page where my burns get diluted by others. If i have the higher CD then theirs going down the drain but thats an entirely diffrent argument.

sigil of blood is a pretty unreasonable suggestion on you own. I can get the 25 stacks and just switch – because after the 25 stacks the sigil is useless. all i am saying is that in a condition damage heavy build geomancy delivers more dps then sigil of force.