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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Wrong. I backed up my claims, you did not.

All I’ve seen so far is a bunch of nonsense from you and unsubstantiated denials of reality.

In case you didn’t noticed, I linked an image that should speak for itself, but if you didn’t understand it, I can explain it to you: Guardian’s have a higher base damage (auto-attacks) than Warriors.

You linked no such image. Maybe you should check your link before spouting off nonsense.

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

You linked no such image. Maybe you should check your link before spouting off nonsense.

But I did. If it wasn’t there I would’ve edited it by now…

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/52408/nowai.jpg

Since there’s no option to “hide attachments” in the forum, you might want to check since it seems to be a bug.

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

So if you think about it just a little bit, you might notice a Guardian can deal 50% of the damage of a Hundred Blades just with the auto-attack.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

Zerk warriors with the correct traits gain might stacks on every crit.

I consistently hit 12k-20k damage every 100 blades with my warrior.

Even with full zerker gear and empowering might on my guard, which I ACTUALLY tested the hits come no where close to that.

Again, the main issue here is that I actually PLAYED with the actual gear setup while you are just bloviating over things in theory based on fantasies in your head.

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

You linked no such image. Maybe you should check your link before spouting off nonsense.

But I did. If it wasn’t there I would’ve edited it by now…

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/52408/nowai.jpg

Since there’s no option to “hide attachments” in the forum, you might want to check since it seems to be a bug.

Your attachment just proved your own statements totally irrelevant.

That’s a meditation build guardian which is fully traited and specced for dps and pvp, which is irrelevant to the topic, “FULL SUPPORT for dungeons”.

The build I specifically stated was the AH build, which is traited for support/utility and the contention was over the stats of the gear. (cleric vs soldier/knight vs zerk)

Also, based on your stats the characters weren’t wearing full zerk gear and when the guard did the dmg in the later panels he had 16 stacks of might. That’s only achievable via empower from staff #4 and damage from that source is not nearly as consistent as a zerk warrior.

Maybe read next time before you start spouting off contrarian nonsense at people.

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

I ran out to cursed shore to do some samples of real game combat but it took me a while to find something with sufficient hp to show the full dmg of 100hb.

Attachments:

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

Are you roleplaying?

That image shows that, with equal gear, equal traits (30 in Power, rest pretty much irrelevant), equal Runes and Weapon, the difference between a Guardian and Warrior damage.

This means that a Warrior deals more damage because he has that many Might stacks.
So, for a Warrior to deal more damage than a Guardian he needs to have 12~16+ stacks of Might?
If I grouped with a Warrior, an Elementalist and a Guardian, I’d be playing constantly with 20+ stacks of Might, and probably a 100% uptime on Fury depending on the Elementalist.
Who’d be dealing more damage then?

As you can also notice, a Warrior deals comparable auto-attack damage with a Guardian only when he has 10+ stacks of Might.
Eh, sure means Warriors deal way more damage than Guardians… when they have all those Might stacks…

Last panel I had Staff + Virtue of Justice activation and Empowering Might, which I forgot to remove before casting. But that’s okay because the Warrior had 4 more stacks of Might when I tested it’s auto-attack and even then it just became comparable to the Guardian’s.

Both are Soldier geared with Berserk runes.
If both are Berserk geared, their damage would increase accordingly (and they’d be in the same proportion).

And “the build I specifically stated…”… really? You say you want to DpS with a 30/30 Valor/Honor build, and then you keep wondering why your Guardian does suck when DpSing?

Also, AH is not support. Valor line has one Major for support and that’s it. Calling it support is simply stupid.
People build AH for survivability.

So you’re essentially saying that your bunker build Guardian does 1/2 to 1/3 damage of your other (zerk Geared, and probably damage built) professions?

I suggest you, again, to recheck your Guardian since it seems you’re doing something terribly wrong with it.
I mean, I’m no pro-player but I have to tell you this… bunker builds don’t DpS like damage builds.

But hey, at least your damage Warrior is doing more damage than your bunker Guardian, or I’d have to say that you’d be doing something wrong with both your Guardian and Warrior!

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Are you roleplaying?

That image shows that, with equal gear, equal traits (30 in Power, rest pretty much irrelevant), equal Runes and Weapon, the difference between a Guardian and Warrior damage.

Wrong. Traits and gear type makes a world of difference in effectiveness for different classes. If you don’t know this basic fact about gw2 then you are newer than I thought.

A dps build for guardian uses vastly different trait points than a dps build for warrior. Trait lines themselves give different attributes between different classes.

Just mindlessly throwing trait points in certain areas and then declaring they are equal is beyond wrong.

Refer to my above attachment for cursed shore sample of a REAL encounter.

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

Wrong. Traits and gear type makes a world of difference in effectiveness for different classes. If you don’t know this basic fact about gw2 then you are newer than I thought.

A dps build for guardian uses vastly different trait points than a dps build for warrior. Trait lines themselves give different attributes.

Just mindlessly throwing trait points in certain areas and then declaring they are equal is beyond wrong.

Refer to my above attachment for cursed shore sample of a REAL encounter.

If you’re not roleplaying… you’re trolling then.

I may have been spending way too much time on these forums… I’m already replying trolls and even arguing with one.

Anyway, hats off to you sir, well played.

To any non-trolls who might’ve been fooled like me, I say: Don’t pay attention to this troll’s posts. Guardians does not use Toughness or Vitality for damage. We use Power and Precision like everyone else.

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

If you’re not roleplaying… you’re trolling then.

I may have been spending way too much time on these forums… I’m already replying trolls and even arguing with one.

Anyway, hats off to you sir, well played.

To any non-trolls who might’ve been fooled like me, I say: Don’t pay attention to this troll’s posts. Guardians does not use Toughness or Vitality for damage. We use Power and Precision like everyone else.

Wrong.
You are the one that responded to my initial post with that nonsense, so in fact you are the troll here.

Not only do you not have any clues of how guards really work you totally failed to read or just refused to acknowledge that I also recommended mixing knights gear (which has power and prec as you said) with pvt when going that route.

I’ve posted attachment of real gameplay of a zerk build warrior in a real gameplay situation to support my statements on dmg comparison, while all you’ve done is post 2 effectly untraited characters wearing soldier gear hitting dummies.

The fact that in your example you are using meditation build is a joke to the topic of this post, since meditation builds simply can’t compare with AH for support. (Maybe you misread the thread and thought it said, “FAIL SUPPORT for dungeons” ?)

Anyone can see that it is you who is trolling here.

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

So you’re not trolling then?

Okay then my fellow Guardian devoid of intelligence, let me help you achieve some enlightenment.

When you’re comparing two things, let’s say… object W to object G, we want to be as objectively possible, and clear any external influences that might compromise our comparison.
The best way to do this is to create a perfectly controlled scenario with exactly equal circumstances so that we know the results either from W or G aren’t altered because of an unknown factor.

So, now that we’ve got that out of our way, let’s go back to GW2.
Where can we create two professions, get them identical in attributes so we can test the effects of everything purely and unadulterated? The Heart of the Mists!

There, we can create both a Warrior and a Guardian. Untraited. Same gear. Same Runes, same Weapon.
Now let’s work on the Traits, shall we?

If we want to deal high damage, it’s only obvious that we build in the tree that increases Power, right? Afterall, Power is most of time if not all the time the highest increasing attribute for damage. The cause of this is some really annoying math that I won’t get into, but you can check for yourself on gw2buildcraft.

So, both get 20 points in Power, and hey, check this out! Coincidentally enough, they’ve similar Major traits!
Guardians get a 10% increased damage on burning foes at Adept, and 5% increased damage with Greatswords at Master.
Warriors get a 12% increased damage from adrenaline levels at Adept, and a 10% increased damage with Greatswords at Master.

Wait a second… hmm. This means Guardians can only get an extra 15% damage, while a Warrior can get 22% extra damage?
Okay, that’s not exactly balanced, but hey, they both increase damage in similar fashion so let’s go with it.

After some extensive testing, you’ll notice that Warriors are weaker than Guardians in most attacks except for skills.
Seems that even with the damage handicap, Guardians are still strong!

You don’t even need to attack dummies. Just by checking the tooltip shows that.
But hey, okay, Warriors got this awesome skill that does awesome damage in 3 seconds and a half every 6~7 seconds!
Too bad they weaker in damage other than with this skill.

So, let’s get some thinking in here… this means that, to deal higher damage, Warriors use a skill. This is player controlled, can be used on demand.
Guardians keep the same high damage constantly, higher than a Warriors.

Knowing this we can conclude that Warriors have a higher burst than Guardians, but Guardians have a higher sustained damage per second.

Wew, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

But hey! You say “What about the other traits?”
Yeah, we need to spend our remaining 50 points!

So, let’s say… why don’t we spend 30 points in Precision? So now both get the same more critical chance, and an extra 10% damage!
But wait a bit.

If I have 10 apples in one hand, and 10 apples in another hand, and I add 4 apples for each… won’t I have 14 apples in each hand?
Dang, we’re still at the same point when we began then!

Let’s spend elsewhere then… some trait line like… Vitality! Because not everyone likes damage-centric players and they all love some support right?
Warriors get better Shouts, Banners, Empower, and Guardians get better Shouts, Empower…

[continue]

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

So, in the end, all that we got is that Guardians wins at sustained damage is higher, and Warriors wins at burst damage.
Let’s not get into complicated math, and let’s say they’re about equal, considering skills and such.
Let’s move forward to other more important points!

But a Warrior gets Might! Tons of Might! He has this awesome trait and skills that lets him build up to 20+ stacks of Might by himself!

But hey, wait a second… Might is a boon, and everyone has access to it… plus it has a 25 stack limit. If we’re giving the Warrior 20 stacks of Might, why don’t we give the same stacks to the Guardian to balance it out?
Although it’s the Warrior’s skills that are generating most of these Might stacks, isn’t that called support?

Say, for example, we’re grouping with an Elementalist. He alone can get 15~19 stacks of Might to the entire group by himself! This means that on a group scenario, both the Warrior and the Guardian would have these Might stacks!
The Guardian, poor guy, can only give about 3~5 stacks constantly at best. He also gets some Might with his attacks, but it’s not that much and can only sustain another 1~3 stacks at best.
The Warrior, also a poor guy, can constantly give 3 stacks with his Shout. But he gets a bunch of Might on himself only via other skills, about 13~15 stacks!

But well, they’re way over the 25 limit, so let’s say they’re at 25.

Now we have 25 apples in one hand, and 25 apples in another hand.
Hmm, so we’re still at the same…

Say, if I had 10 apples in one hand, and 21 apples in another hand, which hand has more apples?

Now, enough of the analogies, I think we’ve gone past the part where your brain can process information a bit more complex than apples.

If both are traited equally for damage, their damage is comparable. One has higher sustained, the other has higher burst.

When they’re alone, because of the Warrior’s ability to get tons of Might by himself, I’d say he’s at the upper hand of damage.
ANet thinks this is balanced because Guardians have… well, less HP, less regeneration, no ranged damage and Wall of Reflection, so they’re balanced.
But in a group situation, they’re about equal.

Even if a Guardian’s damage isn’t on par with a Warrior’s, it sure isn’t negligible at all, or we’d all need to call Warriors to help us killing our monsters for loot.
So now that we can say their damage is at a ratio of W:G, if we trait W 3Attack 0Defense:G 0Attack 3Defense, I think it’s pretty obvious who deals higher damage right?

So, can you now understand the Guardian x Warrior damage?

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Posted by: SilverWF.4789

SilverWF.4789

That’s not true, Guardians don’t have the same burst damage as Warriors, but our sustained damage is higher if built properly for damage.

My full Power with a 30/0/10/30/0 build deals 950~1050, 950~1050, 1600~1900 with the Greatsword’s auto-attack.
My Warrior only gets 1050~1150, 1050~1150, 1350~1500 only when I’m at 3 bars of adrenaline + 10 stacks of Might or more (Signet of Rage + For Great Justice).

Wut? Dude, did you ever heard about Hundred Blades?

#SAVEDONBASS from Ukraine!
Seafarer’s Rest (EU): Liicher (Engi), Lii Cher (Warrior), Swf (Elem),
Licharr (Guard), Lich Eir (Ranger), Alt Fh (Thief). Lii Cherr (Mesm), S Wf (Necr)

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

So in short, and a TLDR:

1. When comparing Guardian x Warrior, they need to have the same Power/Precision/etc, because a 10000 Power x 5000 Power isn’t exactly a good comparison.
2. Then we add equal traits, such as damage increases that every profession has, while still keeping 1. in mind!
3. We’d have the preliminary results by then, and now we can work on external influences (boons). Given they’re situational and anyone can get it, we should treat them equally if we’re comparing them.
4. Now you have the final results, with external influences accounted for, and you can put on your notes such as “Since A has better growth, it grows faster (no kitten!), but if B also receives the same growth from external influences, it grows even faster”.

Done!

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

Wut? Dude, did you ever heard about Hundred Blades?

I’m retiring myself from this discussion, as I don’t have the will to argue with another… sigh, troll?

But no man, I never heard about Hundred Blades, what is it?

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Wut? Dude, did you ever heard about Hundred Blades?

I’m retiring myself from this discussion, as I don’t have the will to argue with another… sigh, troll?

But no man, I never heard about Hundred Blades, what is it?

Right, anyone who calls you out on your nonsense is a “troll” now?

Sorry but you fail. It’s clear to everyone you’re a troll and your statements have no merit.

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Posted by: Lalangamena.3694

Lalangamena.3694

this thread derailed from its original topic.

I would like to remind you that this is not warrior vs guardian DPS thread but availability of a support guardian in dungeons.

EDIT:

regarding magi armor.
I try to avoid to have more than one/two pieces of it (back +one more is OK) , because it lacks toughness.
lack of toughness make you go ranged and avoid direct contact, which is the opposite of what we are.

sometimes you must be at back fluffing around with scepter, but we are just better at melee range.

I never tried wearing full magi, but I started slowly farming TA for the nice skin, so i will try its original stats and see how it is before i x-mute it to my clerics.

(edited by Lalangamena.3694)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

this thread derailed from its original topic.

I would like to remind you that this is not warrior vs guardian DPS thread but availability of a support guardian in dungeons.

I was supporting my original statements about dps not being a focus of the guardians as a class because there are others that can do it much better when my posts were derailed by the troll.

Guardians can go pvt/knights, full clerics, or full zerk as the main viable options. (Any mix and match would just yield a halfway unfocused hybrid of one of those or other)

Since the topic of the post is for full support I recommended full clerics with AH build.

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

this thread derailed from its original topic.

I would like to remind you that this is not warrior vs guardian DPS thread but availability of a support guardian in dungeons.

EDIT:

regarding magi armor.
I try to avoid to have more than one/two pieces of it (back +one more is OK) , because it lacks toughness.
lack of toughness make you go ranged and avoid direct contact, which is the opposite of what we are.

sometimes you must be at back fluffing around with scepter, but we are just better at melee range.

I never tried wearing full magi, but I started slowly farming TA for the nice skin, so i will try its original stats and see how it is before i x-mute it to my clerics.

I know, I realized too late that he was the same guy who posted this gem:

That’s not true. Guardians will never compare to any of the dps classes in dmg anyway so there’s no point in speccing for damage. Guards are useful for their boons and condition removal abilities as well as utility skills(reflection, retaliation, stability, regeneration etc.), not for their actual direct combat dmg.

And this one…

The damage you bring is trivial compared to damage dealing classes unless you are in full zerk spec, and even then it’s not comparable.

But anyway, back on topic, anything that isn’t Berserk -> Knights -> Valkyrie -> Soldier weights down the group.
Berserk has 3 attributes for damage, Knights has 2, Valkyrie has 2 but they’re weaker than Knights, and Soldier has just Power but it’s still on the highest Power tier.

There’s some huge problems gearing for Healing Power:

1. Most of the damage that downs you, downs you because you’re doing something wrong. Either by not avoiding it, not reducing it, and maybe even making it worse playing a glass cannon. These types of damage will down someone most of the times no matter how much Healing Power some Guardian in the group gets, because you simply can’t outheal these kind of damage.

The “weak” damage that you’re supposed to get hit every now and then, they’re designed and expected to hit a player, and they won’t one shot you or anything. Players can play their defensive skills and healing skills and overcome the situation, since that’s how it was designed to be.
So, if on my Elementalist and I take a 6000 Fireball, I’m going to heal because I’m pretty sure no one will (or can) heal that much for me. Which brings the second problem:

2. There’s not very many big heals that you can give your group constantly. Most of it are periodic, so it’s absolutely useless to negate spike damage (that should be avoided in the first place).
You can apply regeneration with a Mace, Focus, 1 Utility and maybe by burning Virtue of Resolve. My regeneration ticks 178 with 300 Healing Power.

Virtue of Resolve is 0.06, and will only benefit the group if you’ve traited Battle Presence. (105)
Selfless Daring, now, this is an awesome one because it scales insanely great with Healing Power (1 by 1). It’s limited to dodging though, but it’s probably one of the highest heals you can get. (455)

Another small heal you can get is from Symbols and Writ of the Merciful. (140)

Then you have weapon specific ones: Empower (2000), Orb of Light (1100), Shield of Absorption (1360).

None of these, would greatly help heal someone who just lost 10k health. They’re great as periodic heals that flow in constantly that adds up in the end, but they’re not good as “active” heals like you have from other MMOs.

So what I’m trying to say is, you can’t heal a bad player that doesn’t avoid damage meant to be avoided, the damage that you’re supposed to take can be healed already through everyone’s own healing skills, and if you’ve got a great group that can negate most of the damage, the less useful your Healing Power becomes.

There’s probably some exceptions to this, but they’re rare so it’s not good to run around with Healing Gear around all times just for one or two occasions.

Healing Gear works awesome in PvP/WvW, but that’s it. In PvE, it’s just not as good as others.
If your Virtue of Resolve is ticking me, a non Guardian, for 105 or 150, or your Regeneration ticks for 175 or 250, I really wouldn’t care much because I’d be probably healing myself too if the situation asks for it.

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Posted by: Under Web.2497

Under Web.2497

I for one am finding this thread interesting just because there are so many differing opinions, that goes to show how awesome guardian is.
At 80 i had mostly knights/clerics gear,slowly i replaced piece by piece until i am happy with my surviveability whilst trying to do high dps. My set up now is mostly zerkers

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Posted by: Shimond.2478

Shimond.2478

I for one am finding this thread interesting just because there are so many differing opinions, that goes to show how awesome guardian is.
At 80 i had mostly knights/clerics gear,slowly i replaced piece by piece until i am happy with my surviveability whilst trying to do high dps. My set up now is mostly zerkers

Honestly I think this is how it’s designed. At the start of pve content as you’re learning the ropes you want the stats on your gear to be more forgiving for errors you make defensively. But as you get better (and for a guardian as important – your party gets better) you can shift to a more glass cannon type gearset while retaining the necessary defensive traits/utilities to provide for the party.

That’s primarily why I’m staying balanced in my gear, because I do a lot of pugging and you never know what you’re going to get…

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

I for one am finding this thread interesting just because there are so many differing opinions, that goes to show how awesome guardian is.
At 80 i had mostly knights/clerics gear,slowly i replaced piece by piece until i am happy with my surviveability whilst trying to do high dps. My set up now is mostly zerkers

Don’t believe in the troll that tried to derail the topic earlier.

Class cannon may work for exp dungeons but in fotm higher lvls it’s a liability. (doesn’t really matter though since exp dungeons are easy enough for any variant setup to work when it comes to guards)

Meleeing in general is dangerous in fotm high lvls and without meleeing you can’t take full advantage of the zerk build.

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

Don’t believe in the troll that tried to derail the topic earlier.

Class cannon may work for exp dungeons but in fotm higher lvls it’s a liability. (doesn’t really matter though since exp dungeons are easy enough for any variant setup to work when it comes to guards)

Meleeing in general is dangerous in fotm high lvls and without meleeing you can’t take full advantage of the zerk build.

You make some… interesting arguments.

How about you make a thread about Guardians in general and put all this valuable knowledge on it? I’d for sure love to read it.

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

Don’t believe in the troll that tried to derail the topic earlier.

Class cannon may work for exp dungeons but in fotm higher lvls it’s a liability. (doesn’t really matter though since exp dungeons are easy enough for any variant setup to work when it comes to guards)

Meleeing in general is dangerous in fotm high lvls and without meleeing you can’t take full advantage of the zerk build.

Glass cannon in high level FOTM works great.

I do lev40 fractals every day and most of the time i’m in glass cannon mode and don’t die much and the scepter/torch/sword damage with 30 in radiance, points in valor and Unscathed Defender is really strong constant damage, it totally takes advantage of the berserkers gear… i’m not a liability, still have all the Guardian functionality, dodging/avoiding the 1shot stuff through experience/practice.

People should definitely play however they want, if being support makes you and your group comfortable and makes things go smoother thats great, but so you know alot of high level FOTM groups do very well without any support players, death is often prevented by things dying fast so the 1shot type of mechanics don’t get to play out, so don’t tell yourself or believe that it’s not viable, I recommend people trying it and knowing it works well, it does take experience in the dungeon.

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Posted by: George Steel.1804

George Steel.1804

Does it work? Yeah.
Does full GC work? Yeah.

The issue…

I often face myself grouping with players of “less than desirable” skill levels.
So, what does my cleric+soldier outfit do for me?

Answer: I can carry these people through a dungeon. Literally. My dodges AoE heal for 1300. My shouts transfer conditions to boons. My regen and groupwide VoR tick for monstrous amounts.

While I can definitely stay alive and do amazing damage in full GC gear, I can’t really offer my team anything besides damage. Yeah, maybe a little regen, might on crit, but nothing sustainable. But the problem isn’t about me staying alive, it’s my party.

And tbh, I didn’t roll a guardian thinking I wouldn’t support my team.

Platinum – Guardian
Technical Strength – Engineer
Dungeon Master – FotM 46

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Don’t believe in the troll that tried to derail the topic earlier.

Class cannon may work for exp dungeons but in fotm higher lvls it’s a liability. (doesn’t really matter though since exp dungeons are easy enough for any variant setup to work when it comes to guards)

Meleeing in general is dangerous in fotm high lvls and without meleeing you can’t take full advantage of the zerk build.

Glass cannon in high level FOTM works great.

I do lev40 fractals every day and most of the time i’m in glass cannon mode and don’t die much and the scepter/torch/sword damage with 30 in radiance, points in valor and Unscathed Defender is really strong constant damage, it totally takes advantage of the berserkers gear… i’m not a liability, still have all the Guardian functionality, dodging/avoiding the 1shot stuff through experience/practice.

People should definitely play however they want, if being support makes you and your group comfortable and makes things go smoother thats great, but so you know alot of high level FOTM groups do very well without any support players, death is often prevented by things dying fast so the 1shot type of mechanics don’t get to play out, so don’t tell yourself or believe that it’s not viable, I recommend people trying it and knowing it works well, it does take experience in the dungeon.

Sure, that would work if you are in a team of people you know and run with regularly over vent or teamspeak.

But if you pug like most people do full support builds can carry an otherwise mediocre team whereas a glass cannon build can’t.

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Posted by: Red Falcon.8257

Red Falcon.8257

I for one I’m very happy with my DPS Warrior with 100% crit chance 250% crit dmg who deals twice as much DPS than any Guardian builds (7005 effective power, NOT counting Fury and Mights), and also love my Support Guardian who makes a team close to immortal as no one else could (perma protection, regen, walls/shields/wards).

But we are in a game where Guardians go full glass with almost no support and Warriors go shout healing with low damage, so expect most suggestions to be around those lines.

(edited by Red Falcon.8257)

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

Does it work? Yeah.
Does full GC work? Yeah.

The issue…

I often face myself grouping with players of “less than desirable” skill levels.
So, what does my cleric+soldier outfit do for me?

Answer: I can carry these people through a dungeon. Literally. My dodges AoE heal for 1300. My shouts transfer conditions to boons. My regen and groupwide VoR tick for monstrous amounts.

While I can definitely stay alive and do amazing damage in full GC gear, I can’t really offer my team anything besides damage. Yeah, maybe a little regen, might on crit, but nothing sustainable. But the problem isn’t about me staying alive, it’s my party.

And tbh, I didn’t roll a guardian thinking I wouldn’t support my team.

Sure, that would work if you are in a team of people you know and run with regularly over vent or teamspeak.

But if you pug like most people do full support builds can carry an otherwise mediocre team whereas a glass cannon build can’t.

I’ve been pugging high level fractals for a long time usually just with my girlfriend and sometimes with another friend… fortunately at 30+ most people know the drill for the most part but the ones that don’t I just don’t see how me living longer or healing them would help them that much more than killing fast, people who don’t know when to dodge get just about 1shot if their damage is half decent.

Support is a loaded word, I don’t heal in dungeons, I often do WvW with +1500 healing these days and love Guardian healing ALOT, I just try to kill things fast as I find if mobs are alive too long their heavy damage mechanisms take their toll, but nothing wrong with your approach that’s your style and I bet it works great for keeping the group up, there’s such a variety of types of players you can get in your group and some players have serious issues with stuff like dodging/watching animations.

My support is through utility/weapon skills, i’ll list what I employ to support while in glass cannon or semi-glass cannon gear in level 30-40 FOTMs in a few maps for examples of what I consider my Guardian support, I find this thread interesting and just want to go over some things for Guardians who are just getting into FOTM and looking for some advice:

First though I want to say that a well timed Aegis through VoC(reset with renewed focus!) or retreat can help groups alot in any map here against the burst mechanisms in high levels, try to always think of that, a well timed Aegis can really save people who don’t know when to dodge/where to be.(i’m emphasizing what I consider Guardian support)

Frost map:

Wall of reflection, hallowed ground, stand your ground.. on ice elemental boss part, I may switch off some of my berserkers here since the damage can be a little rough if pugs are likely to do things like pulling too many adds and you get bad teleport spawns.. I may use consecration durations/cd trait instead of Unscathed Defender on lev40, when things get a bit hectic i’ll use hallowed ground near the fire, stand your ground for when people are regrouping/rezzing if needed, gather adds with greatsword, put a wall of reflection in front of them and burn them down asap with gs aoe, this is my support here in a nutshell. (the final boss is a punching bag that just dies and you can go extreme full 100% dps mode without any worry aside from some dodging/positioning, unscathed defender switched back in).

rambling continued next post…

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

It’s another place where for my usual pug situations I do not see where Guardian type of healing would help that much here, people that don’t dodge well can get rezzed with stability, biggest threat is the adds which you want high DPS GS aoe and the pull with the wall of reflection to shut down before newer players die to not dodging/going to fire.

Lava map:

On the first adds, wall of reflection, sanctuary, shield of the avenger are nice here if the grou kitten truggling a bit, just helps keep things under control, GS to pull, aoe em down, I don’t feel a need for tanky gear here with some dodging/positioning, kill fast.

Upper shaman fight, I switch to hammer+scepter/shield with sanctuary, wall of reflection and something else whatever maybe a signet with immobilize or knockdown if the groups CC is bad, cc adds to death for chest and on boss part walls of reflection and unscathed defender full berserker DPS, after practice it’s not hard to avoid damage here, timely aegis, shield #5’s, protection buffs and WoR of course are big support for players having a hard time avoiding the damage that tbh is avoidable with practice.

Main boss fight:
switch off UD for consecration duration, greatsword+scepter/shield, shield of the avenger, wall of reflection and sanctuary, I swap in tome of courage for renewed focus here incase everyone goes low on add phases and need heals, I put on some of my gear with toughness/vitality on this encounter but need to aoe the adds down fast so low survival players don’t die fast in the chaos, I don’t think healing would help as much here, Sanctuary/wall/shield can be a great help in rez recoveries from the inevitable player who doesnt ever dodge the arrow and lied about his AR. but mostly those skills can save the day on the add phase, true guardian support right here, fight adds behind the bubbles/walls with GS pulls and such, shield #4 and #5 to bail out low health people if they need it.

Vertical jumping puzzle Cat robot map whatever it’s called:

Wall of reflection, hallowed ground, shield of the avenger or SYG whichever, maybe use unscathed defender if people don’t need the stability so much, full berserker here to kill the harpies asap.. do whatever on the 4 bosses encounter it’s a brawl, depends on group how I do this one… on Old Tom of course best you can do is full berserkers/UD/max dps however you can, just makes run go faster this encounter is nothing, this is supporting your group having high dps available.

Last boss: of course WoR, SoA and sanctuary will help pugs aware of them stay alive here, healing would do nothing at all really, kill robots fast, Greatsword pull on last phase with a wall between you and the boss, burn em down fast, I may put on some toughness/vitality gear here for insurance.

Anyways most dungeons the damage is pretty predictable with practice, damage is honestly all pretty avoidable when you get used to it, without knowing the mechanics well or if dodging isn’t going well, should definitely keep your vitality/toughness up until you do, but I believe every serious Guardian should keep a set of full DPS gear in their back pocket to help kill faster in the frequent sections where people aren’t under heavy pressure at least, it’s not that expensive and it’s not that much inventory space. I see that as supporting your group.

(edited by Incomingray.8075)

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Posted by: Alvik.4207

Alvik.4207

I for one I’m very happy with my DPS Warrior with 100% crit chance 250% crit dmg who deals twice as much DPS than any Guardian builds (7005 effective power, NOT counting Fury and Mights)

Woopie, just made a scepter guardian build with 7500 effective power. And it can be improved, as well as food. Also no fury/might yet.
Btw getting so much crit chance and crit dmg (how, btw?) on warrior is not very effective

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

Woopie, just made a scepter guardian build with 7500 effective power. And it can be improved, as well as food. Also no fury/might yet.
Btw getting so much crit chance and crit dmg (how, btw?) on warrior is not very effective

I call it hax, because ranged can’t take full advantage of the zerk build.
(I see myself quoting this guy years to come)

(But as a side effect, playing this is boring as hell)

edit: It could be improved even further!

(edited by Danicco.3568)

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Posted by: Alvik.4207

Alvik.4207

Sweet, I would deffo play it if scepter #1 wasn’t broken and smite unreliable :| because they actually do have good coefficients

(edited by Alvik.4207)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

I for one I’m very happy with my DPS Warrior with 100% crit chance 250% crit dmg who deals twice as much DPS than any Guardian builds (7005 effective power, NOT counting Fury and Mights)

Woopie, just made a scepter guardian build with 7500 effective power. And it can be improved, as well as food. Also no fury/might yet.
Btw getting so much crit chance and crit dmg (how, btw?) on warrior is not very effective

Yes and that’s why farm teams are always 4 zerk guards and 1 mes or 5 zerk guards.

Wait…

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Posted by: Alvik.4207

Alvik.4207

Yes and that’s why farm teams are always 4 zerk guards and 1 mes or 5 zerk guards.

Wait…

Well, that proved whatever I stated wrong. Oh wait…
Thing is, guardian get crazy dps but in doing so they forego all the utilities that make guardians guardians. It’s like playing a warrior with 10k hp. And while this damage would be ranged, warriors damage is AoE. Farm teams typically farm CoF which is a cramped dungeon of garbage minis.

(edited by Alvik.4207)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Yes and that’s why farm teams are always 4 zerk guards and 1 mes or 5 zerk guards.

Wait…

Well, that proved whatever I stated wrong. Oh wait…
Thing is, guardian get crazy dps but in doing so they forego all the utilities that make guardians guardians. It’s like playing a warrior with 10k hp. And while this damage would be ranged, warriors damage is AoE. Farm teams typically farm CoF which is a cramped dungeon of garbage minis.

So you admit your point was irrelevant and in a real gameplay situation your build is like a “warrior with 10k hp”.

The point of this thread is for an effective FULL SUPPORT build for dungeons. You are just using situational builds to show big numbers that are not effective in a real gameplay situation. It’s like that troll earlier who posted nonsense pics of him hitting dummies with 2 characters in soldier gear without a real trait setup.

The difference that separates dps classes like warriors and guardians is the fact that you can build an effective dps focused warrior that does what it’s supposed to while you end up with a “warrior with 10k hp”(in your own words) when you try it on a guardian.

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: Alvik.4207

Alvik.4207

So you admit your point was irrelevant and in a real gameplay situation your build is like a “warrior with 10k hp”.

The point of this thread is for an effective FULL SUPPORT build for dungeons. You are just using situational builds to show big numbers that are not effective in a real gameplay situation. It’s like that troll earlier who posted nonsense pics of him hitting dummies with 2 characters in soldier gear without a real trait setup.

Wow, you’re jumping to conclusions too quickly for your own good. I don’t really feel like getting dragged into any type of discussion with you. CBA
Just to clarify, I was not making a point in the first place. I was simply disputing his claim that ANY guardian dps build would do HALF of his (inefficient) warrior build.
Surely you can’t have a problem with that? half page response inc?

(edited by Alvik.4207)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

So you admit your point was irrelevant and in a real gameplay situation your build is like a “warrior with 10k hp”.

The point of this thread is for an effective FULL SUPPORT build for dungeons. You are just using situational builds to show big numbers that are not effective in a real gameplay situation. It’s like that troll earlier who posted nonsense pics of him hitting dummies with 2 characters in soldier gear without a real trait setup.

Wow, you’re jumping to conclusions too quickly for your own good. I don’t really feel like getting dragged into any type of discussion with you. CBA

I’m just quoting your own words. How is that jumping to conclusions? Maybe you should form your posts more appropriately or actually learn to stay on the topic of the thread.

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Posted by: Alvik.4207

Alvik.4207

or actually learn to stay on the topic of the thread.

That is quite rich, coming from someone who seems determined to drag the discussion away from the subject. I have also already given my opinion in an earlier post.

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

or actually learn to stay on the topic of the thread.

That is quite rich, coming from someone who seems determined to drag the discussion away from the subject. I have also already given my opinion in an earlier post.

You are the one talking about zerk guardians. So your accusation is laughable.

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: KoRnStyleZ.7142

KoRnStyleZ.7142

Well, guys wait a second. First of all, i just asked if Support Guardian with HP is viable in the game. And you told me that they are. I really appreciate some people stating that dps guardian with little support is more balanced etc BUT, i didn’t ask you what build i should play. I wanted to know if Support is good in dngs. Since it is, i prefer you to help me make a nice Build, but you started flaming each other. Please help me or you can leave this post. Thanks a lot.

As i stated before, i already have a lvl 80 warrior. IF i wanted to play an OP damage dealer, i was going to pick my warrior instead of guardian. But Guess what? I want to play a supportive role….

Desolation EU: Korcillia The Guard – lvl 80 Norn Guardian
Tristeno – lvl 80 Charr Warrior
Sruazzam – lvl 30 Asura Elementalist

(edited by KoRnStyleZ.7142)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Well, guys wait a second. First of all, i just asked if Support Guardian with HP is viable in the game. And you told me that they are. I really appreciate some people stating that dps guardian with little support is more balanced etc BUT, i didn’t ask you what build i should play. I wanted to know if Support is good in dngs. Since it is, i prefer you to help me make a nice Build, but you started flaming each other. Please help me or you can leave this post. Thanks a lot.

As I’ve originally stated before the trolls derailed the post, full support builds can be done via either full clerics or a mix of PVT/Knight gear with stats like 0 0 30 30 10.

Runes can be 6x Superior runes of the soldier for condition removal, or 2x superior monks, 2x superior water, and 2x major sanctuary runs for boon duration. (Or 3x monks and 3x water)

Since you are exclusively focused on dungeons and not planning on doing wvw, I recommended full cleric stat gear for max healing, toughness, and power.

As I’ve also stated before, I’ve played with all 3 sets on my guardian and my opinion is informed by my experience. (Unlike some of the trolls here posting pictures hitting dummies.)

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Posted by: Alvik.4207

Alvik.4207

Personally I basically recommend the same build as DeathPanel (0/0/30/30/10, it’s the best) but instead of PVT/Knight gear you should have at least berserker trinkets and a mix of knight/soldier rest. You’ll do basically the same thing while actually doing damage. And no, you won’t be squishy.

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

As I’ve also stated before, I’ve played with all 3 sets on my guardian and my opinion is informed by my experience. (Unlike some of the trolls here posting pictures hitting dummies.)

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/52787/gw157.jpg

640 hours of hitting dummies must be worth something!

And no, I’m not arguing anything with you, just take this post with all the sarcasm it has. It simply means I’ve been hitting dummies for 640 hours so I’m pretty experienced about hitting dummies.
You’re just a narrow-minded individual with limited understanding capability so it’s totally unproductive to discuss anything game mechanic related. If anything, I’d get dumber from it, so I’ll refrain from doing so in the future.

Attachments:

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Posted by: KoRnStyleZ.7142

KoRnStyleZ.7142

Omg Danicco, not only you did not help me, but you keep flaming with DeathPanel…. Please Leave….

Desolation EU: Korcillia The Guard – lvl 80 Norn Guardian
Tristeno – lvl 80 Charr Warrior
Sruazzam – lvl 30 Asura Elementalist

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Omg Danicco, not only you did not help me, but you keep flaming with DeathPanel…. Please Leave….

He’s just a troll. It’s my bad I fed him.

Alvik’s idea of mixing some zerk stuff in isn’t bad either if you want some damage in the build as long as it’s not too much. It’s all about how you want to build things.

Basically if you want to do full support full clerics is best. If you want to do some dmg Alvik’s idea is decent.

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Posted by: KoRnStyleZ.7142

KoRnStyleZ.7142

Whats the minimum amount of armor i need for dungeons? 2.5k? 3k?

Desolation EU: Korcillia The Guard – lvl 80 Norn Guardian
Tristeno – lvl 80 Charr Warrior
Sruazzam – lvl 30 Asura Elementalist

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Whats the minimum amount of armor i need for dungeons? 2.5k? 3k?

It depends on what build you go with. Currently I’m running 3.3k but that’s with my pvt/knight(half and half) build since I’ve been doing wvw alot.

I just want to emphasize though, that if you do go full clerics please be sure to have 30 points at least in Honor, because clerics gear have no hp bonus and in that case you’d want the hp bonus from that traitline. (The extra healing power from that traitline also helps)

You’ll have about 16k hp with full clerics with those traits. It may not sound like alot but due to your healing, protection and armor it will be very difficult to kill you.

I would definitely recommend some form of staff/sceptor + shield setup for full support spec. (staff for speed/might buffs and combo fields/utility, sceptor + shield for range, immoblize, and utility)

To further support you could take traits like writ of exaltation and pure of voice. (Larger symbols, shouts convert 1 condition from team to a boon)

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: KoRnStyleZ.7142

KoRnStyleZ.7142

I’m asking about Cleric’s setup. Is 2.5-2.8k armor fine?

Desolation EU: Korcillia The Guard – lvl 80 Norn Guardian
Tristeno – lvl 80 Charr Warrior
Sruazzam – lvl 30 Asura Elementalist

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

I’m asking about Cleric’s setup. Is 2.5-2.8k armor fine?

Should be no problem as long as you have the healing power, power, and the correct traits.

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

2.6k is fine. If you go with Boon Guard, you will pretty much be permanently under protection which is -33% damage. If you use PVT or knights, your high toughness will make your regen boons and VoR became more effective by itself.

Gear wise, you have 6 armour pieces, 6 rune slots, 6 accessories, 2-4 weapon slots. You can mix and match to find your happy medium geared to your own play style. Myself, I preferbringing good dps to the table as well as support (when playing a boon guard) which means all my accessories are berzerker+ruby jewels. This allows me to tweak my build for any situation by swapping armour sets changing traits on the fly.

Just completed a lvl 17 fractals last night with 0 AR. Damage support is provided via EM and empower. I still hit just as hard as I would in knight/zerker gear. Healing support comes from using the staff (I would rate this as the best dungeon weapon for the Guardian in dungeons hands down) and regen from boons (virtues and utilities) utilities are giving as much boons as possible which has 2 benefits. 1. The boons benefit your team in def and atk 2. You heal yourself for every boon you give (AH)

There is absolutely no negative side to this build. Its all about balance. Don’t do extreme builds. They are one trick ponies.

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

Well, guys wait a second. First of all, i just asked if Support Guardian with HP is viable in the game. And you told me that they are. I really appreciate some people stating that dps guardian with little support is more balanced etc BUT, i didn’t ask you what build i should play. I wanted to know if Support is good in dngs. Since it is, i prefer you to help me make a nice Build.

Deleted my last post but I just think it’s a bit strange that you’re saying it is good in dungeons to build around healing as if you now know because of what some Guardians have posted here, you don’t know that yet and a bunch of us are advising you that it isn’t.

It’s not needed, maybe in the next big dungeon healing will be needed, right now it’s good for first time encounters or players who really struggle with dodging, most people know the content and some will probably cringe when they see you healing instead of doing good dps.

To me full support means having more than 1 set of gear, having the ability to do really good dps while supporting with class abilities and not losing out on helpful dps with healing stats, people can dodge and heal themselves, in pvp full support to me means healing power but in dungeons I agree to disagree that it’s supportive at all.

Only posting that since you’re saying “Since it is” so matter of factly, based on your OP you don’t know the dungeon content very well in this game and you might find the healing aspect of this so called ‘full support’ is not needed.

Play it if you find it fun and want to really make sure noone dies(but wait, what if people are dying from spike damage from something that didnt die fast enough?), healing is a blast in pvp and super effective, I just feel like in dungeons it’s non-supportive and I prefer to never have a healing Guardian in any of the current dungeons in my group.

Just being on-topic and replying to your op as truthfully as I can here..

(edited by Incomingray.8075)