Guild Wars 2

… Arenanet’s ability to remain aloof in spite of hundreds of posts on the topic of the greatsword update, and a rather vocal outcry by their paying customers.

Forgive me my ire, but regardless of whether the change directly impacted your play experience, is it not disingenuous for this company to preach a different way of handling customer service, only to act in a manner that reeks of neglect? It leaves the same bad taste as some of the poorer periods of GW1 (the paragon nerfs, the shadowform/ursan destruction of the economy, the neglect of elementalists after the hardmode update, et al.). These occasions incited an outcry that warranted a response, and were met with tacit dismissal for far too long.

I have been trying to appreciate what Arenanet has done with GW2, being that it is a marvelous enterprise, but I am having a hard time staying positive while they can’t be bothered to so much as acknowledge the discontent that this change has wrought.

I apologize for the screed, as I’m sure many of you are tired of hearing about this, but I don’t care to see this topic fall to the wayside. Arenanet’s customers deserve better than this.

I didnt feel that nerf.

Yes, our symbol synergy is weaker, but you still get a gap closer skill on a short CD and a very strong class.

My only complaint is the change of keybinding, but it’s not the end of times.

My class is still strong and competitive and everyone wants guardians in groups, pvp or anything.

Must say after playing smaller scale mmos for the past couple of yrs I generally find the lack of communication abit disappointing to be honest, I’ve got used to playing games where you not only see a lot of the devs on the forums but also in game. Guess that’s the benefits of a smaller budget mmo to the bigger boys.

Just change it to might that stacks some what decently instead of retaliation. I want the old spammy cooldown back!

I concur.. can’t believe we haven’t had one post regarding not only GS changes but the TONS of topics regarding Guardian ranged effectiveness. Are there any devs assigned to the Guardian profession? sigh

I would just like a to be mildly informed by someone what direction they plan on taking the Guardian in as a profession. I don’t want to invest a 1000 hours into the character I view as my main only to realize a few months down the road that the direction they took it in isn’t something I enjoy playing anymore.

Why don’t we have Profession specific CM’s to keep us as informed as they possibly can, as well as shut down needless rumors?

My guess is there’s simply no Dev who cares.

After that patch went live, Rangers complained about the slowdown on Shortbow and got a Dev response inside of minutes. We’ve raged, we’ve mulled over the issue, we’ve come up with better fixes for the issue… nothing.

The alternative consideration is they plain don’t know how to actually justify the change seeing as it flies in the face of their stated goals.

People complained that they couldn’t use anything other than greatsword in pve, they alter it a little and now everyone is complaining it isn’t the way they want it.
ArenaNet, like many/every other game company, CANNOT make everyone happy. Hypothetically, if they implemented some changes that made you really pleased, chances are, someone would be writing up a forum post about how they don’t listen to paying customers. I think people need to calm down about weapon skill changes, learn to use it in a new way or branch out to something else. I, for one, don’t mind the changes to greatsword at all, it made me try a few other combinations and stuff, I had fun and if ArenaNet think this balances the weapon a little more, I trust them since they have teams of people that work on balance and I’m certain they see how things like this change affect overall game balance a lot better than we do as butthurt Guardian players.

…let’s face it, it pretty much still plays exactly the same anyway, it’s nothing to get into a huff about.

Being able to go condition free 100% of the time is OP.

Please stop the whining.

Amins.3710:

Being able to go condition free 100% of the time is OP.

Please stop the whining.

Do you even know what people are complaining about?, read up on the numerous well explained threads on the actual issues.

The synergy isn’t really there anymore. I autoattack A LOT now.

And with the Signet that condition cures every 10 secs and I traited for another passive every 10 sec condition cure, I cure conditions super fast, even without the combos.

I know you’re upset that your favorite weapon got hit with a nerf that could have been handled better or given a better rationale. That being said, can we just please get over this already, it’s starting to seem like a bunch of crying over spilled milk.

This change had some side effects on other builds not retaliation related that you nor I would agree with, but it wasn’t a nerf that completely made a spec obsolete. It’s a mior nerf at best. The biggest reason to be somewhat upset? The re-arrangement and it’s not going to take that long to adjust despite how unnatural it feels at first.

The Guardian is still pretty much a top tier class regardless of all the changes that’s happened all the way from beta til now.

@Lumines, so we should just accept it?, you may say it’s a minor nerf at best, but it’s not, not by a long shot – and no way should people “just get over it”. They stated they wanted to change 1 thing (ret builds) and ended up changing other things instead (symbol/spirit weapon GS builds etc) and pratically made certain builds not worth taking with the GS.

Taking symbol builds that use the GS from a symbol every 10 seconds to every 20 seconds isn’t minor, it’s a 100% increase in cooldown – that isn’t minor at all (and no the 5 second reduction to leap doesn’t make the patch better for symbol builds).

And actully the most minor reason to be upset is the re-arrangment, it’s annoying yes BUT it nowhere near as bad as what they did to certain builds as that was just a placement issue and NOT an actual ruining builds issue.
—-
I’m glad you still like the class as it is now, but just because you do does not mean that the people who aren’t should just get over it. I spend a lot of time and effort on my guardian and spend a lot of karma/gold on my GS, and i’m not happy that they pretty much ruined my fav build using it (for no good reason) – so i will complain about the issue.

Silver.8023:

…snip
…let’s face it, it pretty much still plays exactly the same anyway, it’s nothing to get into a huff about.

While not directed singularly at you, can we please avoid introducing more flippancy into this discussion?

The issue at this point doesn’t revolve around whether this is a nerf, whether someone is whining, or someone else isn’t whining enough, or whether anyone needs to just suck it up.

The issue is that the change, regardless of it’s nature, has incited negative feedback numbering hundreds of posts across numerous threads on the official forum, and Arenanet hasn’t deigned to so much as acknowledge their customers.

Irrespective of the change affecting you or not, the response (or lack thereof) by Arenanet sets a precedent that will affect you. When the issue at hand becomes something that does motivate you to provide feedback, do you really want to face this kind of response?

For those of you who have been engaging in a meaningful dialogue in this thread and others, I just want to say thank you for your contribution. I appreciate knowing that I’m not alone in my reaction.

Well put Bastion.

Bastion has it right, it’s the lack of official feedback that is important. I don’t use a greatsword, but I would still appreciate seeing the devs respond to all the player complaints. Regardless of the response, I would prefer to be acknowledged rather than ignored.

Bastion the Wayward.3651:

Silver.8023:

…snip
…let’s face it, it pretty much still plays exactly the same anyway, it’s nothing to get into a huff about.

While not directed singularly at you, can we please avoid introducing more flippancy into this discussion?

The issue at this point doesn’t revolve around whether this is a nerf, whether someone is whining, or someone else isn’t whining enough, or whether anyone needs to just suck it up.

The issue is that the change, regardless of it’s nature, has incited negative feedback numbering hundreds of posts across numerous threads on the official forum, and Arenanet hasn’t deigned to so much as acknowledge their customers.

Irrespective of the change affecting you or not, the response (or lack thereof) by Arenanet sets a precedent that will affect you. When the issue at hand becomes something that does motivate you to provide feedback, do you really want to face this kind of response?

For those of you who have been engaging in a meaningful dialogue in this thread and others, I just want to say thank you for your contribution. I appreciate knowing that I’m not alone in my reaction.

You hit it on the head exactly my friend.

I don’t see the problem. The GS is still the guardian’s highest DPS weapon. And what does “no synergy” even mean? Did you guys just hear someone say that and figure it was a good line to drop to cover the fact that you don’t actually have a legitimate complaint about the change?

Even with the nerf, the guardian GS is still, like, the second most powerful DPS weapon in the game, as opposed to the first most powerful like it was before. Given that guardians are also insanely tanky I think not being top tier in one category doesn’t automatically mean the game is now ruined.

False, please don’t talk on something you know nothing about.

If you don’t even know what synergy is then I doubt you played this game enough.

Check this whole section and you’ll find all the answer you are looking for.

Irrespective of the change affecting you or not, the response (or lack thereof) by Arenanet sets a precedent that will affect you. When the issue at hand becomes something that does motivate you to provide feedback, do you really want to face this kind of response?

Was this a rhetorical question? Because, to be honest, yes. I do want to face this kind of response. I prefer ANet’s silence on this matter. I’d rather they not come wading in to the hundreds of angry, combative and largely irrational posts and try to throw the community a bone.

I don’t want an ANet representative to come and apologize or offer some lettered explanation every time they nerf our class. Nerfs and buffs are part of the lifecycle of MMOs, and they change the metagame. We’re the Guardian forums, so part of what we do is discuss the metagame and come to terms with the metagame on our own.

Given that a third of the hundreds of responses you cite are actually inflammatory threads declaring the downfall of Guardians, the downfall of Greatswords, the downfall of GW2 and the incompetence of ANet—no, I definitely don’t need a community representative to come down here and talk to us. That’s not good ‘customer service,’ it’s just us being spoiled and indignant.

Eveningstar.6940:

Irrespective of the change affecting you or not, the response (or lack thereof) by Arenanet sets a precedent that will affect you. When the issue at hand becomes something that does motivate you to provide feedback, do you really want to face this kind of response?

Was this a rhetorical question? Because, to be honest, yes. I do want to face this kind of response. I prefer ANet’s silence on this matter. I’d rather they not come wading in to the hundreds of angry, combative and largely irrational posts and try to throw the community a bone.

I don’t want an ANet representative to come and apologize or offer some lettered explanation every time they nerf our class. Nerfs and buffs are part of the lifecycle of MMOs, and they change the metagame. We’re the Guardian forums, so part of what we do is discuss the metagame and come to terms with the metagame on our own.

Given that a third of the hundreds of responses you cite are actually inflammatory threads declaring the downfall of Guardians, the downfall of Greatswords, the downfall of GW2 and the incompetence of ANet—no, I definitely don’t need a community representative to come down here and talk to us. That’s not good ‘customer service,’ it’s just us being spoiled and indignant.

You and Guanglai Kangyi seem fixated on the term “nerf.” This is missing the point.

Please re-read the thread before adding your flippant dismissals. The disdain with which you respond to the concerns of your fellow community members has been rather apparent across the threads pertaining to this issue, and your penchant for talking past your peers adds little to a meaningful dialogue.

The significant outpouring of feedback regarding this issue should serve as an impetus for acknowledgment from Arenanet. If you don’t understand how that relates to customer service, then I don’t think you really grasp the meaning of the term.

Still in PVE land duoing with my wife and used to have an absolute TON of fun on my GS Guardian. My fun was abruptly killed by turning my GS into a boring weapon. I used to play GS because of the looks and the support I was able to provide with the symbols. Maybe it wasn’t the best weapon to use but since we’re still trying to enjoy the PVE side of the game, and we’re taking the scenic route, the change was a major disappointment.

I’ve done a great deal of PVP in other games and will in this one as well and understand that PVP needs to be balanced in a timely manner. Sadly from all that I’ve read and experienced this “fix” failed in just too many ways.

2cents from a player just trying to enjoy PVE, for now…

I’d be happy if they just took away retaliation on the gs and put might and give us 10 cd.

It’s clear as day that it didn’t change the retaliation build

So, we wont be able to aoe cleanse every 10 seconds, wont be able to keep retaliation up 100% of the time (400~500 dmg back to its source) and those whose use symbols to heal wont be able to do so anymore on a GS.

And of course, GS hits quick, hard and have an aoe pull (that interrupts at least) and good AoE dmg on it’s normal scale. On top of that you get up to 2 stacks of might that triggers altruistic healing.

You couldnt see that nerf comming? GS was so extremly good that made all other weapons a mere shadow. Crithammer? Please. You could use it in groups in dungeons for symbols + protection but its dmg/utility was nothing compared to our old GS. Come on, aoe cleanse + dmg + buffs + symbols + interrupts + blind.

That nerf was expected.

Wrong thread Reihert, this thread isn’t about the nerf, it’s about the lack of a response to all the complaints on the nerf.

You may have expected the nerf, but that’s not the point of this thread.

It’s funny. All the people telling the community to stop posting are missing the point of what having a forum is all about. This is the place where we can voice our opinions, on topic, about issues we have facing our class. (Guardians) There is no better place for this dialog. If it was a non issue you would not have this many people still talking about it. For those people saying we should drop it, quit whining, stop complaining, ect. Here is some advice.

1. If you do not like the conversation in the forum, don’t read it.

2. Problems do not solve themselves by burying your head in the sand and ignoring them. Communication is key to resolving issues. Asking ANET to at least acknowledge their paying community isn’t asking much. It’s what those of us in the real world like to call customer service.

3. Starting your post by saying, “I don’t get what the problem is.” tells me that you are not qualified to comment on the subject. If you don’t understand the problem in the first place you have no business giving criticism, constructive, or otherwise. Educate yourself first. If you are not going to be constructive then you are just trolling. No one wants to deal with a troll.

4. The “nerf” happened. It’s done. What people continue to fail to understand much to my amazement is that this thread is NOT ABOUT THE NERF. It has been repeated several times. This thread is about communication. The people who still fail to get that are the reason posts like this exist in the first place.

5. Calling peoples posts “irrational”, or insulting them, because you don’t agree with their viewpoint does not help you get people to see your point. It just makes you look like a jerk. No one is going to listen to someone who berates their audience.

6. Not only should ANET respond to this. They should give it the attention it deserves. If this was 1, or 2 people whining about a minor button change they would be justified in ignoring it. That is not the case at all. They have alienated, and upset a huge section of their player base. As a business when you upset paying customers you have a responsibility to address the concerns. Every company in the world has that responsibility if they want to stay in business. ANET is not immune to it either. This is the sort of thing that will make the difference between someone continuing to support this game, or move on and give their money to the next MMO that comes along. It dictates their future expansion sales, and unless something changes it will spread to other forums when they decide to nerf something else in the future. They are setting a poor precedence for themselves by ignoring the elephant in the room.

7. Let’s really look at what’s being asked of them. ANET let us know you are listening. That’s it. Nothing more. No one here is asking you to fix this overnight. You have done far more for much less.

Thank you Sir Digby

It’s funny because when something happens to their class/build they will be the first crying/complaining.

I’m mad about the change but not about the retaliation build. Just the nerf in the gs in general. Just like everyone else I just want to hear what ANET has to say about it. If they say they aren’t going to do anything then that’s better than nothing. I’ll move on but question them in the long run.

MajorMelchett.6042:

Wrong thread Reihert, this thread isn’t about the nerf, it’s about the lack of a response to all the complaints on the nerf.

You may have expected the nerf, but that’s not the point of this thread.

They didn’t need to respond to the complaints because the complaints are for the most part stupid. They already said why they nerfed Symbol of Wrath. If you think we need a dev to come to the forum to tell us the same thing they already told us right in the patch notes every time they make a change, then you’re just being massively entitled.

Moreover, there’s not even anything to explain. GS was too powerful before and now it’s not. I don’t see why so many people are having trouble grasping something as simple as this. Also, I have to see anyone complain about anything about Wrath nerf other than the fact that we lost DPS, so it’s not like we have any legitimate complaints worth addressing in the first place.

If you’re dropping an entire class because of a cooldown increase on one skill then please just quit now and give me all your gold and items while you’re at it, because you’re going to hate the game once Anet actually gets past the “making the game work” phase and starts doing content changes.

They didn’t need to respond to the complaints because the complaints are for the most part stupid. They already said why they nerfed Symbol of Wrath. If you think we need a dev to come to the forum to tell us the same thing they already told us right in the patch notes every time they make a change, then you’re just being massively entitled.

i reply only this part, because the rest dont need a reply.
For you its all clear, so WHY for many of us it’s not? The problem was the GS damage? ok so why dont write it instead of write something like

We are moving towards retaliation being more of a counter to taking many hits rather than a general boon to keep up all the time. We also wanted to improve the combo finisher of the guardian, so we reorganized guardian greatsword skills to the following:

-and retaliation builds still have 100% uptime. So THIS log, for me its NOT CLEAR AT ALL!

20 seconds cooldown for a 3 seconds symbol is ridiculous.
I wouldn’t mind if it’s 15 seconds, but 20 seconds? wtf are they thinking.

Sentinel VX.1392:

20 seconds cooldown for a 3 seconds symbol is ridiculous.
I wouldn’t mind if it’s 15 seconds, but 20 seconds? wtf are they thinking.

15 second instead of 10, well it’s sure a nerf, but its a reasonable nerf.

I think they do not care if retaliation is up on ourselves most of the time. The symbol provided retaliation to the group, that is probably why it was nerfed into the ground. Same with the symbol, they just touched the group retaliation possibilities we had.

Retaliation just affecting the player himself are unchanged.

Simbol of protection + mighty blow provide group retaliation as well, even faster, and whitout stand on the simbol.

There isn’t a problem here. There is no value add to the development of the game for Anet (or any other MMO publisher) to respond to every single group of customers negative feedback for all the changes they make to the game on the forums. The process for considering customer feedback to changes does not need this step to be effective.

People need to have more realistic expectations about the interaction they will have with Anet. The forums aren’t here for you to initiate conversations with Anet staff. That is Anet’s prerogative if they choose.

@Obtena.7952.
When a patch states 1 thing and does another, i’m sorry but i recon that does require at least some response when a large number of people ask why it happened and for what reason.

Basically – when a patch states it’s going to do something and it does something else instead, it deserves a response as to why.
—-
As for realistic expectations.
On day 1 of the patch a thread appeared in the ranger forum asking “is the 40ms change correct?”, within the 1st day (within minutes i think) it got a response and then it actully got internal testing by Anet and then another response explaining how the chnage was correct.
On the same day (and for days after) guardians asked “why was this done, the patch states retaliation BUT it didn’t change that and instead changed xxx” and after 10 days not a single response by anyonee from Anet.

If rangers can get a response within minutes for that then it’s not unrealistic to expect a reponse withing 10 days for this.

That’s just being pedantic. So you’re real issue is that the patch notes don’t match the change? That’s an easy fix … adjust the patch notes.

The intentions for the changes were pretty clear and Anet did communicate them to us as well as why they did it. A discrepancy in the patch notes isn’t really that significant of an issue. I see all this as posturing to find fault with the retaliation nerf itself. That’s a fallacious approach to invite people to discuss it.

I fail to see how it’s pedantic to request why a change was done when the patch explained one thing and did another.

It is significant when it changed multiple things the patch made no mention of – it’s not a small discrepancy.

The change ultimately was their decision, to balance their game, which you choose to play. Honestly, I grow tired of people expecting changes just because they complain about it. There’s nothing wrong with saying you don’t like them and why, but this has deteriorated into an endless stream of QQ and it’s nigh pathetic. I still play GS, and no, I didn’t trait for symbols. If you ask me, something better to complain about is having too many symbol traits to take, many or all of them should be combined into one, say grandmaster, trait so that it leaves some room for more.

@ Major

It’s pedantic because it wouldn’t have an impact on the change ingame. The patch notes set expectation for change and it did that. Just because people don’t agree with how the patch note statements impact game play doesn’t mean the patch notes aren’t accurate or reflect Anet’s intentions for game changes.