Guild Wars 2

Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Topic title was just too good to pass up in my eyes. If you’ll forgive the ploy, that isn’t actually what I want to focus on. I understand that many people are upset with the recent change to “Save Yourselves!” while others are promoting the change as a more balanced approach to sPvP.

However, what I would like to really focus on with this discussion, is the emergence of a disparity between functions of an ability in PvE and PvP. I was hoping that it would never come to this, because I really don’t like the way that feels. In my opinion, an ability should be balanced to work both in PvP and PvE, and if it can’t, it should be redesigned. However, that is just my opinion, and I’m sure others will disagree.

What concerns me is that this change sets a precedent for things to come. I really don’t want to see the gap widened between functionality of abilities in PvP and PvE. What do you all think about this?

I already stated my concern over this worrying precedent here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Class-is-dead/first#post513964

and here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Save-Yourself-Nerfed-Seriously-why/page/3#post513918

TL;DR: I agree.

Agreed. GW1 did the same kind of thing, and it was beyond annoying.

Wait….so you’re griping because they actually made a change that affects PvP and PvE differently? Are you freaking insane? That’s what they SHOULD do. It’s what they SHOULD have done with the Symbol of Wrath nerf, changed it in PvP and left it as is in PvE. Balancing skills separately in PvP and PvE is the ONLY way to go. It worked WONDERS in GW1 and it’s most definitely the way they should handle skill changes in GW2. I hope they do this more often. Because nerfing a skill for the sake of PvP and then having huge repercussions in PvE (or vice versa) as well is the most kitten thing ever. Don’t know why you would want it that way.

Seriously, think about what you just said. You would rather them make the same changes to a skill in both PvP and PvE, and possibly have one of them suffer a lot more because of it? Are you high? Some people……

Wasn’t a main focus of theirs? To allow a character to transition from PvE, PvP, and WvW?

I agree I don’t think they should separate the skill sets depending on what mode you are in, but it may be unavoidable. Still they could just drop the skill.

Can you imagine the complaints for that one? They might be more grateful to keep what they have after that.

Zeph.5927:

Wait….so you’re griping because they actually made a change that affects PvP and PvE differently? Are you freaking insane? That’s what they SHOULD do. It’s what they SHOULD have done with the Symbol of Wrath nerf, changed it in PvP and left it as is in PvE. Balancing skills separately in PvP and PvE is the ONLY way to go. It worked WONDERS in GW1 and it’s most definitely the way they should handle skill changes in GW2. I hope they do this more often. Because nerfing a skill for the sake of PvP and then having huge repercussions in PvE (or vice versa) as well is the most kitten thing ever. Don’t know why you would want it that way.

Seriously, think about what you just said. You would rather them make the same changes to a skill in both PvP and PvE, and possibly have one of them suffer a lot more because of it? Are you high? Some people……

Wonderful ad hominem attack. My argument’s (if you can even really label it as such) credibility has been dashed apart by your superior debating skills. In any case, you clearly didn’t read what I wrote very carefully. I am well aware that some people disagree with my stance on the issue, which is why I stated that in my OP. I am curious to see what others think. It is blatantly obvious what you think, but I am having trouble taking your opinion with all that much consideration simply based on the way you presented yourself.

Plenty of games out there do not diversify the way abilities work in PvP and PvE, and plenty of games do. It is really up to the development at the end of the day. Also, note that I am not suggesting that I believe it is ok to completely wreck the way something works for either PvE or PvP, just for the sake of promoting balance in one or the other. Like I said, if the move cannot be balanced for both, it should be redesigned to work differently. Obviously, that is easier said than done and I leave that up to the devs at ArenaNet.

Hopefully the following responses will be more constructive than yours was, but thank you all the same for the discussion and free bump.

Animus.6073:

Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Topic title was just too good to pass up in my eyes. If you’ll forgive the ploy, that isn’t actually what I want to focus on. I understand that many people are upset with the recent change to “Save Yourselves!” while others are promoting the change as a more balanced approach to sPvP.

What I would like to really focus on with this discussion, is the emergence of a disparity between functions of an ability in PvE and PvP. I was hoping that it would never come to this, because I really don’t like the way that feels. In my opinion, an ability should be balanced to work both in PvP and PvE, and if it can’t, it should be redesigned. However, that is just my opinion, and I’m sure others will disagree.

What concerns me is that this change sets a precedent for things to come. I really don’t want to see the gap widened between functionality of abilities in PvP and PvE. What do you all think about this?

Have the same skill can be right if PVE = PVP, and this is not our case.
the only thing that can be odd is PVP and WvWvW with different skills.

I think it’s a tough thing to accommodate such a complex set of environments and also player wants versus what’s best for the game as a whole. I’m completely with you about the ‘get over yourselves’, I’m tired of the whine, ignorance, childish reactions and lack of mature dialogue in many cases. That being said, some folks are incredibly patient and contributing well in a grown-up manner.

Back on topic though, I had an initial thought as yourself that if a skill/trait/whatever can’t work for all environments equally, then it’s broken. As a result, there could be a fear as a result that perhaps one faction (pvp or pve or wvw or…etc) will get an advantage of that one skill which may negatively impact the other uses or factions and a gap may insue…

Although there’s likely a bit of an increased complexity on anet’s part in having different baselines/metrics for the same skill insofar as maintaining balance, ultimately I’m encouraged by the fact that they’re identifying how unique pve is compared to pvp and will adjust accordingly.

The environments and needs are different – I’m happy they’re not sticking to a ‘one size fits all’ approach regardless of any evidence they have. Good on anet for charting a potentially new path and balancing things towards the specific content/environments they’re used in.

To me this shows how flexible and adaptable anet is rather than stale and rigid. I like it.

Skills should be the same in PvP and PvE if at all possible. As Zeph said, it could be a concern because one area gets shafted for another. But that is for the developers to figure out.
And to elaborate on what Zeph said: That way of handling isn’t inherently bad, but you should do it from the start. Either they completely overhaul the system, or they try to keep the abilities the same.

Frankly if they need to balance something i rather it be balanced like this so changes for pvp do not affect my pve playing and vice versa.

I totally agree they should seperate pvp and pve skills.. split them up like they did this one.. quit nerfing pve cause pvp is over powered.. you cant fix something for one and not break it for the other.. WOW did the same thing thats why there is always a flavor of the patch who is OP cause they needed more dps in pve… anyways its smart make a pvp toon and make a pve toon or if you want to do both on one learn to play the class differently in spvp…

The worry that a split between PVE and PVP skills will proliferate and become status quo is a bit of a slippery slope, though not entirely out of the question given that it did happen in GW1.

The question is: Is this a bad thing? What do you lose from a (purely hypothetical) PVE/PVP split in this game?

I want to make a case for PVP/PVE split for one reason: PVE and PVP operate by fundamentally different rules. PVE is about situational awareness, memorizing a strategy and good timing. It’s about not standing in fire (i.e, red circles) and knowing how to dodge.

PVP is different because the nature of the encounter changes dramatically from fight to fight, depending on team composition, degree of coordination, player skill, mind games, etc. The Mesmer Profession alone is a testament to how different a single ability (clones) functions in PVP than in PVE.

So the metagame for PVP almost always develops based on player choice. Right now, the metagame leans toward heavy condition removal. That affects the way sPVP looks right now. It affects builds. It affects team composition. It affects professions. Did ANet create the condition removal metagame? No. The players did.

So that’s the difference: ANet designs all PVE content and can control all solutions to any given PVE encounter. However, the players control all PVP content and ANet can only balance in response to to the evolving metagame. ANet is in complete control of PVE design, but their attempt to balance PVP is necessarily reactionary and controlled by the players.

Consequently, it actually makes no logical sense that a skill function in exactly the same way in sPVP/tPVP as it does in PVE. These are arguably two completely different types of gameplay with different goals, different dynamics and different objectives.

The Pros of PVE/PVP Splitting:

• Finer, more precise control. ANet can adjust certain abilities that work very differently in PVP without damaging or disrupting the balance of PVE. Retaliation is an absolutely perfect example. Perma-retaliation is a problem in PVP, but not so much in PVE. But because both game modes share the same set of skills, solutions are necessarily clumsy and byzantine. Splitting PVE and PVP is an elegant solution.

• More dynamic combat. Right now, skill recharges are balanced primarily for their efficacy in PVP. Why does Line of Warding have such a long recharge? Probably because it’s a very potent area denial tool, but its potency is much more evident in PVP. What about Binding Blade? Illusionary Wave? Banish? Ring of Warding? All of these abilities are much more powerful in PVP than in PVE, therefore accounting for their long recharge. A PVP/PVE split would safely allow for short recharges in PVE, creating a more fluid, dynamic combat system.

• Better builds/traits. Each trait line provides access to a finite number of traits, which include both PVE and PVP centric traits. Creating two versions of your trait lines—one for PVE, and one for PVP—means greater build diversity, fewer wasted traits and more interesting options for everyone.

The Cons of PVE/PVP Splitting:

• Potentially Cumbersome/Complicated system: Splitting PVP and PVE essentially creates two different game rules. Your abilities would all function differently in sPVP. Presumably, so would your traits, and perhaps even your stat coefficients. Therefore you’d have to learn two variations of the same game, leading to added complexity and potential confusion.

…But my rebuttal to that one point is: So what? Don’t we re-learn our skills, muscle memory and builds every time we switch between alts? If the only argument against the PVE/PVP split is the complexity of the system, I would argue that it’d only seem complex at first, but over time, we’d learn it.

If it’s done well, I’m all for a PVE/PVP split. The game already goes out of its way to divorce PVE from PVP by making sPVP tightly controlled in terms of gear and putting everyone on an equal playing field. Splitting traits and skills between PVE and PVP is a big but elegant solution to a number of issues.

As long as a skill has the same effect, same recharge time and same activation time I don’t mind a PvE/PvP split like the Confusion one.
Once skills have a different recharge time, activation time or even completely different effect things start to get messy because all your timings are off; everyone who has played both PvE and PvP back in GW1 knows how horrible a skill split between PvE and PvP can be implemented; I hope they have learned from their mistakes and don’t repeat them.

Why don’t they just remove retaliation all together and replace it with another duration buff. Maybe swiftness? I’m just throwing ideas out there because this nerf is a bit extreme just like the GS, signet not being affected by other traits and so on.

Animus.6073:

Zeph.5927:

Wait….so you’re griping because they actually made a change that affects PvP and PvE differently? Are you freaking insane? That’s what they SHOULD do. It’s what they SHOULD have done with the Symbol of Wrath nerf, changed it in PvP and left it as is in PvE. Balancing skills separately in PvP and PvE is the ONLY way to go. It worked WONDERS in GW1 and it’s most definitely the way they should handle skill changes in GW2. I hope they do this more often. Because nerfing a skill for the sake of PvP and then having huge repercussions in PvE (or vice versa) as well is the most kitten thing ever. Don’t know why you would want it that way.

Seriously, think about what you just said. You would rather them make the same changes to a skill in both PvP and PvE, and possibly have one of them suffer a lot more because of it? Are you high? Some people……

Wonderful ad hominem attack. My argument’s (if you can even really label it as such) credibility has been dashed apart by your superior debating skills. In any case, you clearly didn’t read what I wrote very carefully. I am well aware that some people disagree with my stance on the issue, which is why I stated that in my OP. I am curious to see what others think. It is blatantly obvious what you think, but I am having trouble taking your opinion with all that much consideration simply based on the way you presented yourself.

Plenty of games out there do not diversify the way abilities work in PvP and PvE, and plenty of games do. It is really up to the development at the end of the day. Also, note that I am not suggesting that I believe it is ok to completely wreck the way something works for either PvE or PvP, just for the sake of promoting balance in one or the other. Like I said, if the move cannot be balanced for both, it should be redesigned to work differently. Obviously, that is easier said than done and I leave that up to the devs at ArenaNet.

Hopefully the following responses will be more constructive than yours was, but thank you all the same for the discussion and free bump.

Erm…that…wasn’t an ad hominem attack.

Ad hominem arguments are when someone makes the argument that your stance cannot be true because of some fault with you as a person.

The guy that responded to you didn’t do anything like that, he argued against your point, not against you.

Ad hominem would be something like (just an example, not true)…

Oh, it’s just Animus again. I remember him back from the DAoC boards constantly crying for Nightshade nerfs because they owned him in PvP. Eventually they got nerfed to the point where they were completely useless in PvE, and now here he is again, griping about basically the same thing.

See, THAT is an ad hominem attack. It is an attempt to use some kind of failing of you as a person that I knew from my (imagined) history with you, to disqualify your CURRENT argument.

@ Creslin:

“Are you freaking insane?…Are you high? Some people……”

That is most certainly ad hominem. He is not attacking my argument in the slightest with those statements. He is simply attempting to tear down the credibility of what I am saying by implying that there is something inherently flawed in my person, rather than my text.

The boons on Save Yourselves are supposed to balance out the fact that you’re taking on the conditions of nearby allies. Simple fix. Change the skill so that you only get boons if you rip off conditions instead of unconditionally AND make the length of the boons tied to the number of conditions you draw. Done and fixed. It would then work as intended. No need for split…

tldr: I agree. The split was not needed. It could have been fixed w/o split.

Learn to take some criticism. Seriously. And yes, I personally believe that your line of reasoning is flawed. PvP and PvE changes need to be separated. It’s been proven time and time again in other MMOs that skill changes for both PvE And PvP have a negative effect on one of them. You cannot effectively balance a skill for both, generally speaking because they are two entirely different beasts. PvP and PvE situations are usually completely different from each other. Nerfing a skill for PvP reasons almost always negatively affects the skill in PvE and vice versa. To WANT a system that makes the SAME change for both is, honestly, stupid. It creates way more problems than it solves. For you to not realize this is……well, I won’t even go there. If it all comes down to learning a PvE and PvP variation of a skill, then that is not a problem. If it is a problem, then maybe MMOs are not for you. I hear Hello Kitty is an easy game to learn.

i know many will disagree : but the point is simple
guardian was not designed to be 1 vs 1 king , how ever as in any mmo some classes will have advantage in pvp over another , and in my opinion guardian shine vs Dmg bursters like thiefs /warriors because his high armor and healing skills are superior , and on same time have hard life vs light armor users.
if you take guardian vs another class to fight only with skills from 1 to 5 without virtues and utilities, in 95% of the time guardian will lose.
Because guardian’s weapon skills were designed to be inferior to other classes, he had an boost on utility’s, and i totaly disagree with any utility nerf for guardian.

While I can understand your disappointment with this change Animus, to be frank, it had to happen, and there’s one very major reason why: the Mesmer. It is amongst the strongest classes, for PvP, but is amongst the weakest for PvE and there’s no real way to balance it for both aspects without having a split.

With that in mind, what do you suggest that happens? Keep it so that’s both but have a class that is necessarily strong or weaker depending on where it’s played, or split the skills and balance them separately?

I’m almost afraid to say it, but I will anyway. Other than his interesting way of bringing it, I agree somewhat with Zeph’s view on this. I don’t intend to bash your view though, no worries, since I see where you come from as well…

Anyway! The one thing people should just keep in mind, is that structured PvP and general PvE are vastly different. As for WvW… for now, zergfest: I can’t imagine how that’ll ever change.

As a former Guild Wars 1 player, I can honestly say I was glad that some PvE changes never made it to PvP, and vice versa. Back in the earlier days, ArenaNet placed a lot of focus on GW’s PvP – some people loved it, others did not – but the issue was that with every update they applied to a skill solely aimed at changing its PvP functionality, entire builds and layouts and even full styles of playing were forever erased from PvE.

There are builds – even if they weren’t the most effective, they were fun to play – that were simply never returned to how they were, which is sad. And already, the same has begun to show its face here: the Guardian Greatsword nerf isn’t so grand that it broke the entire game, nor did it break the profession at all, but it has discouraged a lot of players as it wasn’t properly motivated.

By ArenaNet’s word, the nerf was aimed at the retaliation upkeep being too easy to maintain, especially for its PvP purposes. But their change sadly affected PvE as much, if not more, than it did PvP.

Does it mean they should always split everything? Well, it depends. Some changes just cannot go hand in hand, when it comes to PvE and PvP. In case it indeed doesn’t at all work out, without entirely overhauling a skill’s functionality, I feel I’d rather have them try to set a split. Even if not permanently, then temporarily to see how it works in either PvE or PvP live, before deciding to push out the split editions and finalize the revised skill concept.

So for this one… maybe, eventually, they will even out a PvX version of Save Yourselves again, once they have found a way to. For now, I am glad they decided to do it the “careful” way.

Zeph.5927:

Learn to take some criticism. Seriously. And yes, I personally believe that your line of reasoning is flawed. PvP and PvE changes need to be separated. It’s been proven time and time again in other MMOs that skill changes for both PvE And PvP have a negative effect on one of them. You cannot effectively balance a skill for both, generally speaking because they are two entirely different beasts. PvP and PvE situations are usually completely different from each other. Nerfing a skill for PvP reasons almost always negatively affects the skill in PvE and vice versa. To WANT a system that makes the SAME change for both is, honestly, stupid. It creates way more problems than it solves. For you to not realize this is……well, I won’t even go there. If it all comes down to learning a PvE and PvP variation of a skill, then that is not a problem. If it is a problem, then maybe MMOs are not for you. I hear Hello Kitty is an easy game to learn.

Some people just can’t keep it civil. Here’s some criticism for you to take: reading comprehension – yours sucks. Taking criticism is one thing, but having an opinion that is different than yours does not warrant you to harass me with claims that I am insane or stoned. Simple as that. Does it hurt my super sensitive feelings? No. I tried to make a constructive post, which many people are contributing to in a constructive way, and you come in here like a bigshot thinking you know everything about MMO balance with your only credibility standing on the fact that I must be stupid for believing what I believe.

Now here is why your reading comprehension sucks. Nowhere in my post did I even present an argument. I stated an opinion and then stated that I am well aware that others will have differing opinions. What does this tell a normal person? It tells them that I am willing to accept different stances on the matter because I understand that it is a topic of great contention and varying successes in other iterations of the MMO genre. What does this tell you? “This guy is so stupid he thinks different than me what a moron.kitten”

So there is my ad hominem, you aren’t intelligent enough for your opinion to matter. I only hope you get a chance to read this before I’m infracted and my post is deleted. Perhaps it will make you think twice about sharing your views and save other posters from your ignorance.

Good day, sir.

Saying skills should be balanced for both PvE and PvP is like saying LoL characters should be balanced for fighting Bots and normal Ranked players simultaneously.

Completely untenable.

FYI: There already is disparity between PvE and PvP

• Racial skills can’t be used in sPvP. Got a rant for that? Please.

If something differs in PvE and PvP, that does not mean it needs to be redesigned.
It’s just a recognition that PvE needs to be more focused on fun, and PvP needs to be more focused on balance.

There is a limit to how much PvE and PvP can differ, but GW2 is no where near that limit.

Chill.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Saying skills should be balanced for both PvE and PvP is like saying LoL characters should be balanced for fighting Bots and normal Ranked players simultaneously.

Completely untenable.

No it really isn’t because LoL and GW2 are in two completely different genres. I can’t speak for the current state of WoW, but I know that they implemented a system that allowed abilities to function essentially the same way in PvP and PvE, albeit with varying degrees of success.

I don’t believe Blizzard’s system was perfect, but it was a pretty interesting way to deal with the situation. It wouldn’t work in the realm of GW2 but that isn’t to say the only method is to split. Once you start splitting for the sake of balance, you have to start splitting everything, not just a move here and a move there.

As others have pointed out, the Greatsword Symbol would have been a much better starting point to create split effects. I think many would agree to that, if a split were to be implemented, that is.

Indeed. The Symbol would’ve been a nice split; I got my fingers crossed for it still to happen, one way or another, some time in the near future.

Also, since it won’t let me edit my previous post for some reason, I wish to point out I agreed only with that rude fellow’s initial stance – not at all his way of handling the rest of this conversation. I wrote at so sluggish a rate, he got another condescending and most abusive rant in before I could even post my comment.

Its the monthly nerf to a class that is actually pretty balanced that is annoying. The save yourself skill is hardly op. Its just one more way to make us weaker.

Instead of getting some work done on our ranged attacks so they are acceptable and, maybe, heaven forbid, fun, I only see more nerfs coming each month. If this game had a sub, I would unsub. As it is, all I can do is boycott buying gems.

I just say split it dont nerf pve i dont even play my guardian now cause of the nerfs to pve and the gear i went for im not about to spend all my time farming more karma for the gear to become useless again cause of something in pvp… i dont mind learning 2 seperate skill trees and specing for each thats one reason why you can respec for free in spvp anyways right? so what just change what the traits say when your in the mists and in the world it wont bother me one bit. what does bother me is nerfing something to where my build becomes useless and all the gear i have obtained becomes useless..

They should remove the buff from it and put it on a 30sec cd instead of 60 and we could really use the ability for his us winch is to draw allies condition on your self.

Just an idea tho, but I do agree they shouldn’t do the separation thing.

Wobels.1679:

I just say split it dont nerf pve i dont even play my guardian now cause of the nerfs to pve and the gear i went for im not about to spend all my time farming more karma for the gear to become useless again cause of something in pvp… i dont mind learning 2 seperate skill trees and specing for each thats one reason why you can respec for free in spvp anyways right? so what just change what the traits say when your in the mists and in the world it wont bother me one bit. what does bother me is nerfing something to where my build becomes useless and all the gear i have obtained becomes useless..

Maybe useless no, but thats one of the sad things that player that just say “if you dont like the change, just reroll” dont get, because people on PVE spend a lot of time for equipping, make money and karma, when for Spvp its all free.
Ruin a build that you are playing, when you have “invested” a lot of time on it its like spit on your face.

I think I’m in the same boat as you, Animus.

It is one of the best thread titles I’ve seen in a long time.

Also, ignoring the actual nerf, but just looking at the situation of a skill that was imbalanced in the specific environment of sPvP, I think the decision to split the skill is the best possible outcome.

Quite simply, there are two different environments in which the skill is used, and the effects are disproportionately favorable in one of the two environments. I’ve seen some other proposed changes that might work better (duration of buffs depends on number of conditions taken on, etc), but I see those as a rework of the skill, which is also on the big list of “bad things you can do with skills”.

What scares me is not the immediate effect, but what this means for policy and balance decisions. However, looking at the decisions that went into this change:

• KISS still prevails. The magnitude of difference between the two skills is minimal, the key functionality is identical, and you can learn everything there is to know about the skill at a glance.
• ANet does understand the situational differences between sPvP and PvE, and will act with that in mind. This means that the GS nerf was actually targeted at both environments, not just one with collateral damage.
• The first time a skill was split, it was in a patch where a lot of skills were tweaked, and it was the only split. I don’t expect it to be common.

It looks like it wasn’t necessarily a bad decision.

In GW1 this type of activity was fairly common, but there are some key differences:

• GW1 PvP was not intended to be played as competitively as it was. My understanding from interviews and old-school players was that it was intiailly a diversion and only later a major component. This means that fundamental mechanics and balance decisions were made for PvE, not PvP.
• Secondary professions made for a lot of difficult-to-foresee situations. Certainly if some of the perma and related builds had been known in advance, they never would have seen the light of day. 200 skills each on a primary and secondary profession make for a lot of possible skill bars.

So, in short, I think wielding the splitaxe (we already have a banhammer, we need to diversify our dev-arsenal vocabulary) in this case was warranted and we would be paranoid to worry about over-use. While you can make the case that other design options would have been able to avoid the split, simply showing the community that they can react to a limited imbalance in this fasion justifies the use this one time.

In response to the OP:

While I am admittedly, and always have been, rather indifferent to differences between the same thing in pve or pvp, I do sort of agree. What I mean is that, when at all possible I do think it is a good idea not to change something between pve and pvp, keep it the same when you can.

I think that this game just really hasn’t been out long enough tho for an ability to go through a whole reworking because there is still just so much that isn’t fully understood about the game and all the relationships of abilities, events, etc… etc… so it would not only be difficult, but most likely ineffective. Like taking an algebra equation you don’t fully understand and just messing with different parts of it regardless of others.

So I think for the time being, we will be seeing a lot of changes like this one. What the devs really want is to keep people happy, they want you to know that they’re listening and making changes accordingly. This means not being able to wait a year or two to redesign something really well. It means having to making seperations between pvp and pve.

Fildydarie.1496:

GW1 PvP was not intended to be played as competitively as it was. My understanding from interviews and old-school players was that it was intiailly a diversion and only later a major component. This means that fundamental mechanics and balance decisions were made for PvE, not PvP.

GW1 was announced as a CORPG, a Competitive Online Roleplaying Game; PvE was originally planned to be a sort of tutorial for PvP and the endgame was supposed to be PvP. ANet was surprised that so many players preferred to continue play in PvE and later changed their focus on PvE players.

Also the typical roles in MMOs (melee tank, ranged DD, healer) don’t work in PvP because players will be smart enough to ignore the tanks and go for the DDs or healers.
That’s why the professions in GW1 worked fundamentally differently; melees dealt insane damage but were easily countered, mages dealt pathetic damage but provided excellent support, “healer” provided medicore healing but had the ability to transform someone into a superior tank for a short amount of time.
GW1 already had broken with the “holy trinity” but in the end ANet decided to not force their (PvE) players to actually learn to play the game because then many of the old school MMO players would have left quickly.

Animus.6073:

No it really isn’t because LoL and GW2 are in two completely different genres.

This point is irrelevant to the discussion, that being about balancing combat mechanics.

Your entire rebuttal is moot and beside the point.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Animus.6073:

No it really isn’t because LoL and GW2 are in two completely different genres.

This point is irrelevant to the discussion, that being about balancing combat mechanics.

Your entire rebuttal is moot and beside the point.

You are attempting to compare a MOBA with a MMORPG and you are claiming that my point is irrelevant to the discussion? In a MOBA, there is no such thing as PvE. Any non PvP content simply serves as a test. You are not being compared to other players in that vein.

Anything non-PvP in a MMORPG, or PvE, is completely different. You are compared to your counterparts in everything from efficiency to level of excitement. No MOBA would ever balance their game on any “PvE”, or bot, content. That is simply ridiculous and if you can’t see that your argument really has no place here.

I don’t know if anyone else proposed this since i’m simply just too lazy to read all the comments at the moment, but…

I think it was a smart move on the part of Anet to create a difference in the function of this skill between PVE and PVP. The reason being is because sPVP is meant to be more short term and structured compared to PVE. With that being said, the PVE environment is so much more varied and the combat has the potential to be more prolonged than in sPVP. When i say this i’m thinking more in along the lines of boss-fight style world events and dungeon content. Players in PVP aren’t meant to be hulking stat beasts like the PVE veterans and champions so the abilities don’t need to be geared toward prolonged combat against monstrous opponents. Ideally, in sPVP, all opponents are given the opportunity to pick gear from the same list of items, all the levels are the same so level based modifications to damage/defense/healing are a non-factor.

Based on that assessment of the differences between PVE and PVP, I feel that it was a smart move on the part of the developers to create a discrepancy between the two functions of the skill as opposed to simply reducing the effectiveness for both ends of the spectrum. No character in sPVP should ever be able to rely on a single skill or ability to define their strategy for winning. The whole point to competitive play is to challenge both sets of contestants to come up with the most effective combination of abilities and strategies possible and see who comes out ahead.

In PVE on the other hand, the game is already balanced for prolonged skirmishes against either multiple targets which are equal (to the average player) or a single target which is far superior to any possible build that can be presented by a single player character. Because of this certain skills that are simply too strong in sPVP are excellent choices, if not the “perfect” choice for handling situations against AI controlled adversaries, especially since they can’t cry “foul” when confronted by an over powered player. “Save Yourselves!”, if specced and traited correctly, can have a cooldown of 48 seconds and a duration of 16 seconds. Which means that every 48 seconds the player has the option to basically become the Hulk, especially if they are wearing high Power/Precision/Toughness/Vitality gear. In sPVP, you can still have 8 seconds of it, which is about 3 seconds longer than a 1v1 fight should last while using this skill