Guild Wars 2

I was originally a 10/30/30/0/0 and 10/30/0/30/0 since launch and I have only 1 character, a full zerker guardian of 2800 hours.

Yeah, I tried the 10/30/0/5/25 sword/focus + greatsword full ascended zerker gears meta for 3 weeks now and I have very mixed feeling with the build that everyone advocates. Sure, the DPS is great for the first few hits but since I mainly PUG in a dungeon, more often than not fights tend to be extended. Seriously, is there anyone that can keep aegis up for more than 5 seconds?

If you jump into the fray first, the aegis will be gone in a sec. If you are dodging alot, direct DPS will be reduced from the time loss due to dodging. With at least 15 in Honor however, I could at the very least do something productive (healing) while dodging and make use of Elusive Power (Honor 25) to make up for the Aegis that I cannot seem to maintain past the first 5-10 seconds of the fight.

Also, in an extended fight, I will need more on-demand AoE condition removal than ever which 10/30/0/5/25 has difficulty providing past VoR and Purging Flame. Pure of Voice would be able to supplement that since I tend to run 2 shouts to make full use of Superior Aria from Honor line.

My point is this: Since we know that 10 Zeal and 25/30 Radiance provides the best offensive, why not combine it with 30 Honor which in my opinion, is the best support plus defense line compared to Virtue which is again, to me, a purely support line. Unscathed Contender is just too unrealistic for every guardian out there since not everyone of us have make up/static groups. So, go 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/25/0/30/5 to get the best of everything and make it the new meta!

Carlos.9104:

Seriously, is there anyone that can keep aegis up for more than 5 seconds?

About 90% uptime on it, so yes.

I think the keyword there is pugs – ofc with an organised group you will be able to maintain both Aegis and sustained damage to a much much higher degree than when playing with randoms.

So yes, there is nothing wrong with using alternative builds in those cases.

or if you are lazy like me you just switch Virtues 10 to Master of Consecrations or something…

Anicetus.1253:

Carlos.9104:

Seriously, is there anyone that can keep aegis up for more than 5 seconds?

About 90% uptime on it, so yes.

Could you please teach me?

I can only maintain Aegis for an extended period of time if I use scepter. In melee range however, dodging too much appears to be reducing my DPS yet if I don’t dodge, I lose Aegis for Unscathed Contender. I would greatly appreciate it if anyone can teach me the art of using Unscathed Contender to its fullest, that is 90% uptime.

Neither build you recommended have 10 in Virtues so they are automatic fail. Master of Consecration is literally the best thing you can be doing on a pve Guardian, so a build that doesn’t use it is kitten from the start.

Secondly, the 5 in Virtues build. Why does this happen? Do you really think that a few seconds of regen, some worthless might stacks and some worthless protection is worth 5 trait points? You think those five points are better spent in Virtues than Right Hand Strength? Or if running a GS build, 15 in Zeal for symbolic exposure?

Also, in an extended fight, I will need more on-demand AoE condition removal than ever which 10/30/0/5/25 has difficulty providing past VoR and Purging Flame.

Name the boss fight where this is true.

@Carlos: That probably can’t be taught by anything but experience. Besides, dodging to keep UC (and probably scholar runes at the same time) active will always be a great DPS gain compared to not dodging and losing both.

However, there is one very important thing: The meta is made mainly for at least halfway organized groups. The best build for those is not necessary the best build for PUGs. But if I needed a build for those, it still wouldn’t be one of yours, since they lack the chance to take MoC. So there, it would be rather Brazil’s old 0/30/0/30/10 despite the small DPS loss from Zeal.

Technically any mob that gives poison and confusion specifically. Also, to remove cripple and chill when skipping mobs – these conditions tend to be applied alot. I may not need them, but someone else in the group (PUG specifically) will.

So, how can I take MoC, UC and AR all at the same time with 25 in Virtues that everyone is talking about? It seems to me that taking AR is a given, and yet without MoC and UC my build is a fail. Which am I suppose to be picking up again?

Change the traits on the fly, simple solution.

Carlos.9104:

Technically any mob that gives poison and confusion specifically. Also, to remove cripple and chill when skipping mobs – these conditions tend to be applied alot. I may not need them, but someone else in the group (PUG specifically) will.

Name the boss that applies poison and confusion in rapid succession whereby two cleanses would not be sufficient? And skips you have Aegis and a cleanse, name me the specific trash run that requires more than that. When I say “specific” I don’t want a general answer, I want a specific one.

So, how can I take MoC, UC and AR all at the same time with 25 in Virtues that everyone is talking about? It seems to me that taking AR is a given, and yet without MoC and UC my build is a fail. Which am I suppose to be picking up again?

Playing coy is not endearing. Not every encounter has conditions. Not every encounter requires reflects. Use your common sense as to how to swap the traits around for what you’re doing.

I never use Absolute Resolution, a pretty wasted trait once all your party members are good at solo play.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Carlos.9104:

Technically any mob that gives poison and confusion specifically. Also, to remove cripple and chill when skipping mobs – these conditions tend to be applied alot. I may not need them, but someone else in the group (PUG specifically) will.

Name the boss that applies poison and confusion in rapid succession whereby two cleanses would not be sufficient? And skips you have Aegis and a cleanse, name me the specific trash run that requires more than that. When I say “specific” I don’t want a general answer, I want a specific one.

So, how can I take MoC, UC and AR all at the same time with 25 in Virtues that everyone is talking about? It seems to me that taking AR is a given, and yet without MoC and UC my build is a fail. Which am I suppose to be picking up again?

Playing coy is not endearing. Not every encounter has conditions. Not every encounter requires reflects. Use your common sense as to how to swap the traits around for what you’re doing.

I am here in this forum to share and learn new stuff.

I cannot remember any boss offhand. Skipping of mobs relates to Arah dungeons p1 and p2. I cleanse whatever I see immediately. Look, if you still want to reply to me in such a condescending manner instead of giving me non-rude proper guidance, you are just reminding me of the very reason why I post so little. Stop being an elitist and lend a kind helping hand to a fellow guardian if you will. Otherwise, I would still appreciate it if you can leave the thread alone. Thank you.

After going through the helpful replies, I have changed my traits back to the meta and give it another go.

Judging from some of the nastier response, I do not believe I want to post here again.

Thank you all for your inputs.

Im not sure how those were nasty replies. They were simply the hard truth.

First off both builds are fine so there is no need to justify using them. You will pump out more DPS with normal play with 10 30 0 30 0 than 10 30 0 5 25 any day so not a big issue. You will have more reflects and a fire fields with the other. The trade offs are minimal at best and you can switch in the appropriate skills as you go along.

Master of consecrations is useful but that is really is you need wall of reflection and how long will you really need it (2 extra seconds is not going to make or break a build)? Generally a shouts build is more boon friendly for the party, but condition management isn’t as strong with many conditions. It is better at spot removal though. Virtues is good, but honestly very overrated and the general mindset is something along the lines of, “I run virtues. I have for a long time. It is the best PvE build in all situations. Anything else sucks.” A better quote

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Neither build you recommended have 10 in Virtues so they are automatic fail. Master of Consecration is literally the best thing you can be doing on a pve Guardian, so a build that doesn’t use it is kitten from the start.

The major flaw in this thinking is that all guardians must run full group support and sacrifice DPS for it. Truth is most groups do not need all that much support outside fractals. Most guardians wont touch Elusive Power and maximize their DPS in respect to support because they have this hard coded mentality that not running Virtues is bad play.

Let me break it to you:

Wall of reflection works even without the trait.

Every class is getting condi management out the kitten to up their support so relax.

Both builds are fine but if you are honestly trying to maximize DPS then you are going to spec out of virtues. Maximizing support then back into virtues.

Instead of arguing just respect each others play style and let it go. Stop trying to justify your decision to play what you play both builds have their glaring trade offs. Recognize them and move on.

Btw op unless they plan to revert,“Pure of voice” then no 10 30 0 30 0 doesn’t need a buff.

TheGuy.3568:

You will pump out more DPS with normal play with 10 30 0 30 0 than 10 30 0 5 25 any day so not a big issue.

Rather not. The meta has both better support and better DPS under normal conditions.

Master of consecrations is useful but that is really is you need wall of reflection and how long will you really need it (2 extra seconds is not going to make or break a build)?

Increasing the uptime from max 25% to max 37.5% is quite significant.

CptAurellian.9537:

TheGuy.3568:

You will pump out more DPS with normal play with 10 30 0 30 0 than 10 30 0 5 25 any day so not a big issue.

Rather not. The meta has both better support and better DPS under normal conditions.

Master of consecrations is useful but that is really is you need wall of reflection and how long will you really need it (2 extra seconds is not going to make or break a build)?

Increasing the uptime from max 25% to max 37.5% is quite significant.

Sigh…your first statement likely revolves around this being up all the time which in most cases it will not be. Though in some cases you can keep it up in most fights it will not be up the entire time. Even so you have no numbers to prove your claim. What we do know is that in either case their are more DPS traits honor that work to the rather dodgy play of Zerker guardian. Not that big an issue but many feel a need to measure their “manhood” through their build.

Feel free to do a giant DPS test to prove your point if you feel so inclined.

For your second in many fights it is simply unnecessary for other fights most of the time with a DPS party you are done before the CD is up. Percentages are nice but 2 seconds is 2 seconds.

If you go 20 into virtues for both you further kitten your DPS and even if you did go that deep it you would carry AR instead. Not a bad idea for support.

Like I said both builds are fine but many …… people feel the need to prove how good their build is when its pretty much not that better then the other.

The differences are small at best the trades offs clear. Not really worth an argument.

Read the last part of my first post. Here is a quote since you missed it the first time.

“Instead of arguing just respect each others play style and let it go. Stop trying to justify your decision to play what you play both builds have their glaring trade offs. Recognize them and move on.”

Carlos.9104:

I am here in this forum to share and learn new stuff.

I cannot remember any boss offhand. Skipping of mobs relates to Arah dungeons p1 and p2. I cleanse whatever I see immediately. Look, if you still want to reply to me in such a condescending manner instead of giving me non-rude proper guidance, you are just reminding me of the very reason why I post so little. Stop being an elitist and lend a kind helping hand to a fellow guardian if you will. Otherwise, I would still appreciate it if you can leave the thread alone. Thank you.

I would like to add that you could or even should use judge’s intervention, blinding flash and other magical properties of certain items for skipping. Was it helpful?

TheGuy.3568:

CptAurellian.9537:

TheGuy.3568:

You will pump out more DPS with normal play with 10 30 0 30 0 than 10 30 0 5 25 any day so not a big issue.

Rather not. The meta has both better support and better DPS under normal conditions.

Master of consecrations is useful but that is really is you need wall of reflection and how long will you really need it (2 extra seconds is not going to make or break a build)?

Increasing the uptime from max 25% to max 37.5% is quite significant.

Sigh…your first statement likely revolves around this being up all the time which in most cases it will not be. Though in some cases you can keep it up in most fights it will not be up the entire time. Even so you have no numbers to prove your claim. What we do know is that in either case their are more DPS traits honor that work to the rather dodgy play of Zerker guardian. Not that big an issue but many feel a need to measure their “manhood” through their build.

Feel free to do a giant DPS test to prove your point if you feel so inclined.

For your second in many fights it is simply unnecessary for other fights most of the time with a DPS party you are done before the CD is up. Percentages are nice but 2 seconds is 2 seconds.

If you go 20 into virtues for both you further kitten your DPS and even if you did go that deep it you would carry AR instead. Not a bad idea for support.

Like I said both builds are fine but many …… people feel the need to prove how good their build is when its pretty much not that better then the other.

The differences are small at best the trades offs clear. Not really worth an argument.

Read the last part of my first post. Here is a quote since you missed it the first time.

“Instead of arguing just respect each others play style and let it go. Stop trying to justify your decision to play what you play both builds have their glaring trade offs. Recognize them and move on.”

But it’s not just “2 seconds.” It’s 12 seconds uptime and 20 seconds downtime instead of 30 seconds downtime.

Not to mention that your argument regarding DPS seems to ignore the fact that Wall of Reflect is capable of doing massive damage. Take Lupicus for example: People don’t hold onto WoR when they need to save their butts—they get in there and pop it at the right time to do insane damage.

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

@Carlos, you’re mostlikely better off dodging an attack instead of tanking it with aegis. 20% damage is huge, especially when you might have more than 20 seconds time to dps afterwords. About how to keep it up there isn’t a specific secret, it just comes down to learning whatever encounter.

Do you have a problem reading? I do not ask this is an insult but as an actual question.

Kilandros.2098:

But it’s not just “2 seconds.” It’s 12 seconds uptime and 20 seconds downtime instead of 30 seconds downtime.

“For your second in many fights it is simply unnecessary for other fights most of the time with a DPS party you are done before the CD is up.”

Kilandros.2098:

Not to mention that your argument regarding DPS seems to ignore the fact that Wall of Reflect is capable of doing massive damage. Take Lupicus for example: People don’t hold onto WoR when they need to save their butts—they get in there and pop it at the right time to do insane damage.

“in many fights it is simply unnecessary "

“Wall of reflection works even without the trait.”

Not every dungeon requires it. It will not do massive damage in all situations. In many cases it is factually useless. Does that mean you never bring it? No. But the game is not a vacuum where there is only one build. There are trade offs with each and every build. Realistically looking at what is gained what is lost is simply practical.

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

TheGuy.3568:

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming *zero boons.*

How did you get to that conclusion.

25 in virtues, power of the virtuous.

You’re welcome.

Edit: It’s always less.

Anicetus.1253:

TheGuy.3568:

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

25 in virtues, power of the virtuous.

You’re welcome.

Edit: It’s always less.

Power of the Virtuous lol did you actually read the trait? (hint: read the bold)

Elusive power in real play where you might not be the perfect player who never get hit while having 0 vigor. is generally more bang for you buck vs UC. You could be perfect run CoF 1 and never get even then I would say it is better.

And no it does not always do more dps.

TheGuy.3568:

Do you have a problem reading? I do not ask this is an insult but as an actual question.

Kilandros.2098:

But it’s not just “2 seconds.” It’s 12 seconds uptime and 20 seconds downtime instead of 30 seconds downtime.

“For your second in many fights it is simply unnecessary for other fights most of the time with a DPS party you are done before the CD is up.”

Kilandros.2098:

Not to mention that your argument regarding DPS seems to ignore the fact that Wall of Reflect is capable of doing massive damage. Take Lupicus for example: People don’t hold onto WoR when they need to save their butts—they get in there and pop it at the right time to do insane damage.

“in many fights it is simply unnecessary "

“Wall of reflection works even without the trait.”

Not every dungeon requires it. It will not do massive damage in all situations. In many cases it is factually useless. Does that mean you never bring it? No. But the game is not a vacuum where there is only one build. There are trade offs with each and every build. Realistically looking at what is gained what is lost is simply practical.

Your assertion that it is “simply unnecessary” is a logical fallacy, so your question regarding my reading ability is forgiven given your complete misunderstanding of the principal argument at work here. Technically, none of the traits are “necessary” to play Guardian. What we’re discussing is optimization. Optimal builds utilize 10 in Virtues to have access to, among other things, Master of Consecrations. Even if you aren’t using WoR, or you aren’t keeping Aegis up all of the time, the 10 in Virtues is powerful enough that it’s worth having.

To Recap: Even when you aren’t using them, they are powerful enough to warrant going into Virtues for an optimal build.

TheGuy.3568:

Elusive power in real play where you might not be the perfect player who never get hit while having 0 vigor. is generally more bang for you buck vs UC. You could be perfect run CoF 1 and never get even then I would say it is better.

Just to be clear, but even in your hypothetical CoF run where you are never hit and UC is up 100% of the time, you’re still claiming that 10% > 20%?

It’s been awhile since I was in elementary school, but I’m quite sure that’s not how math works.

TheGuy.3568:

Power of the Virtuous lol did you actually read the trait? (hint: read the bold)

Elusive power in real play where you might not be the perfect player who never get hit while having 0 vigor. is generally more bang for you buck vs UC. You could be perfect run CoF 1 and never get even then I would say it is better.

And no it does not always do more dps.

Would you mind if I interrupt your thought process?

If you have elusive power you have permanent vigour. That leads to the decrease of elusive power’s efficiency to lower levels. As such, I would kindly disagree with you about its potential.

Anicetus.1253:

TheGuy.3568:

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

25 in virtues, power of the virtuous.

You’re welcome.

Edit: It’s always less.

This is assuming an organized group or well put together PUG.

Most of the PUGs I’ve been in don’t give me 9 perma boons.

This also sort of counters your own statement of saying its more DPS with zero boons.

Kilandros.2098:

Your assertion that it is “simply unnecessary” is a logical fallacy, so your question regarding my reading ability is forgiven given your complete misunderstanding of the principal argument at work here. Technically, none of the traits are “necessary” to play Guardian. What we’re discussing is optimization. Optimal builds utilize 10 in Virtues to have access to, among other things, Master of Consecrations. Even if you aren’t using WoR, or you aren’t keeping Aegis up all of the time, the 10 in Virtues is powerful enough that it’s worth having.

To Recap: Even when you aren’t using them, they are powerful enough to warrant going into Virtues for an optimal build.

So you are telling me for every encounter in the game WoR is a necessity? If not then what I said was exactly what I meant.

Now I see the big arguments and the antics with semantics come into play here so let me break it down for you.

Optimizing what? DPS in comparison to support. Because by that same logic I could say in many if not most fights you could go full DPS and be a net benefit to the team but with every little to no support. In many cases guardian support is a luxury but not a necessity as many classes can and do run support. Further more our greatest support is WoR as many classes have seen their condition management increased. The same goes for stability. So what we really have is is strong reflect that sets us apart. The thing is the importance of WoR is based on a few encounters where it is considered nearly absolutely vital but in most cases it is not. In many cases carrying another trait/skill might be better.

The issue is that this has already been said. As stated in my OP the absolute demand that someone prove their build is best at all thing over shadows the truth that tradeoffs happen from build to build.

The main issue I have is the vacuum many of you live in where your one build is best. The fact is going 10 20 or even 30 into virtues can be justified but that is does not need to be. Those 10 points can go there or somewhere else. There is an opportunity cost. Without recognizing that its like your trying to argue that your build, those traits, etc. are good when I have conceded that already and just pointed out that their are other competitive options.

And no you are not reading just selectively pulling your eyes to what you do not like. I understand that but it makes me wonder why discuss if you intend to stand on a box and defend a build not being attacked?

haviz.1340:

TheGuy.3568:

Power of the Virtuous lol did you actually read the trait? (hint: read the bold)

Elusive power in real play where you might not be the perfect player who never get hit while having 0 vigor. is generally more bang for you buck vs UC. You could be perfect run CoF 1 and never get even then I would say it is better.

And no it does not always do more dps.

Would you mind if I interrupt your thought process?

If you have elusive power you have permanent vigour. That leads to the decrease of elusive power’s efficiency to lower levels. As such, I would kindly disagree with you about its potential.

Do you ever dodge? Do you ever have to dodge each and every attack to keep your scholar bonus? In some encounter for the most part you could just stand there never get hit and never lose Aegis thus UC would be a better choice. In most fights as a zerker guardian you dodge when necessary and generally that is often. If that is the case then your endurance bar is never full even with vigor.

TheGuy.3568:

Do you ever dodge? Do you ever have to dodge each and every attack to keep your scholar bonus? In some encounter for the most part you could just stand there never get hit and never lose Aegis thus UC would be a better choice. In most fights as a zerker guardian you dodge when necessary and generally that is often. If that is the case then your endurance bar is never full even with vigor.

When I am playing a guardian, I rarely have to, mostly because of overpowered, in my honest opinion, reflections. Thus, once again I have to kindly disagree with you.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Anicetus.1253:

TheGuy.3568:

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

25 in virtues, power of the virtuous.

You’re welcome.

Edit: It’s always less.

This is assuming an organized group or well put together PUG.

Most of the PUGs I’ve been in don’t give me 9 perma boons.

This also sort of counters your own statement of saying its more DPS with zero boons.

1 boon is enough to out dps the 30 honor spec.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Most of the PUGs I’ve been in don’t give me 9 perma boons.

In any run you should maintain might, fury (more often than not pugs are unable to maintain fury tho), swiftness and vigor at all times. There’s also the situational aegis (that you may or may not keep), retaliation (that you’ll get everytime you activate a virtue), stability, protection (from VoC) and regeneration (from focus #4 or VoR).
It ins’t really that hard to maintain 4~6 boons on yourself, also remember that you don’t have to dodge (and stop dps’ing) to maintain every boon but aegis. There’s also unscathed but i think it is too situational to bring in a forum discussion, i can keep it up for like, 40~50% of most fights, Dub says he can keep it for 90ish% so… yeah.

Oxxy.7068:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Most of the PUGs I’ve been in don’t give me 9 perma boons.

In any run you should maintain might, fury (more often than not pugs are unable to maintain fury tho), swiftness and vigor at all times. There’s also the situational aegis (that you may or may not keep), retaliation (that you’ll get everytime you activate a virtue), stability, protection (from VoC) and regeneration (from focus #4 or VoR).
It ins’t really that hard to maintain 4~6 boons on yourself, also remember that you don’t have to dodge (and stop dps’ing) to maintain every boon but aegis. There’s also unscathed but i think it is too situational to bring in a forum discussion, i can keep it up for like, 40~50% of most fights, Dub says he can keep it for 90ish% so… yeah.

Oh yeah, I have no issues maintaining 4-6 boons on average all the time by myself. I also agree with what you say about UC. 9 perma boons is also situational, which is what I’m infering.

TheGuy.3568:

Kilandros.2098:

Your assertion that it is “simply unnecessary” is a logical fallacy, so your question regarding my reading ability is forgiven given your complete misunderstanding of the principal argument at work here. Technically, none of the traits are “necessary” to play Guardian. What we’re discussing is optimization. Optimal builds utilize 10 in Virtues to have access to, among other things, Master of Consecrations. Even if you aren’t using WoR, or you aren’t keeping Aegis up all of the time, the 10 in Virtues is powerful enough that it’s worth having.

To Recap: Even when you aren’t using them, they are powerful enough to warrant going into Virtues for an optimal build.

So you are telling me for every encounter in the game WoR is a necessity? If not then what I said was exactly what I meant.

Now I see the big arguments and the antics with semantics come into play here so let me break it down for you.

Optimizing what? DPS in comparison to support. Because by that same logic I could say in many if not most fights you could go full DPS and be a net benefit to the team but with every little to no support. In many cases guardian support is a luxury but not a necessity as many classes can and do run support. Further more our greatest support is WoR as many classes have seen their condition management increased. The same goes for stability. So what we really have is is strong reflect that sets us apart. The thing is the importance of WoR is based on a few encounters where it is considered nearly absolutely vital but in most cases it is not. In many cases carrying another trait/skill might be better.

The issue is that this has already been said. As stated in my OP the absolute demand that someone prove their build is best at all thing over shadows the truth that tradeoffs happen from build to build.

The main issue I have is the vacuum many of you live in where your one build is best. The fact is going 10 20 or even 30 into virtues can be justified but that is does not need to be. Those 10 points can go there or somewhere else. There is an opportunity cost. Without recognizing that its like your trying to argue that your build, those traits, etc. are good when I have conceded that already and just pointed out that their are other competitive options.

And no you are not reading just selectively pulling your eyes to what you do not like. I understand that but it makes me wonder why discuss if you intend to stand on a box and defend a build not being attacked?

haviz.1340:

TheGuy.3568:

Power of the Virtuous lol did you actually read the trait? (hint: read the bold)

Elusive power in real play where you might not be the perfect player who never get hit while having 0 vigor. is generally more bang for you buck vs UC. You could be perfect run CoF 1 and never get even then I would say it is better.

And no it does not always do more dps.

Would you mind if I interrupt your thought process?

If you have elusive power you have permanent vigour. That leads to the decrease of elusive power’s efficiency to lower levels. As such, I would kindly disagree with you about its potential.

Do you ever dodge? Do you ever have to dodge each and every attack to keep your scholar bonus? In some encounter for the most part you could just stand there never get hit and never lose Aegis thus UC would be a better choice. In most fights as a zerker guardian you dodge when necessary and generally that is often. If that is the case then your endurance bar is never full even with vigor.

To be honest it’s difficult to acknowledge every single one of your points, particularly as your increasingly intractable position has left you increasingly difficult to communicate with civilly. So yes, I am being rather selective.

The point that I’m trying to make—indeed the point that keeps eluding you—is that we’re all in fact talking about what you refer to as “opportunity cost” (i.e., traits in one line take away from another line). The point that has been repeatedly made—and the point that you continue to argue uphill against—is that 10 in Virtues pays dividends in opportunity cost.

In other words, no matter what you’re trying to do, 10 (or more) in Virtues generates more “bang for its buck” than 10 (or more) spent elsewhere.

Anicetus.1253:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Anicetus.1253:

TheGuy.3568:

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

25 in virtues, power of the virtuous.

You’re welcome.

Edit: It’s always less.

This is assuming an organized group or well put together PUG.

Most of the PUGs I’ve been in don’t give me 9 perma boons.

This also sort of counters your own statement of saying its more DPS with zero boons.

1 boon is enough to out dps the 30 honor spec.

I wrote some stuff that was wrong. I corrected the error …

I think it’s still going to take more than 1 boon for virtue 25 to outdamage honour 25.

Obtena.7952:

Anicetus.1253:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Anicetus.1253:

TheGuy.3568:

Anicetus.1253:

10/30/0/30/0 can’t deal more damage than 10/30/0/5/25 in any case. It will always be less or even, assuming zero boons.

How did you get to that conclusion.

25 in virtues, power of the virtuous.

You’re welcome.

Edit: It’s always less.

This is assuming an organized group or well put together PUG.

Most of the PUGs I’ve been in don’t give me 9 perma boons.

This also sort of counters your own statement of saying its more DPS with zero boons.

1 boon is enough to out dps the 30 honor spec.

I beg to differ … in full zerk around 50% crit rate, the 30 more crit damage is a jump of about 15% overall damage. Check out the chart on GW2wiki.

HONOR

Facepalmed.

Ah, so true. I retract and apologize. Edited my post.

@Carlos

Have u thought about why u are slotting 2 shouts normally? Are u slotting the shouts for the condition cleansing ability or for the actual effects? In most cases, there is actually no need to cleanse your allies of all conditions they actually have. If they are downed, its their own fault anyway.

I am using the 10/30/0/5/25 built. The utilities i normally use are signet of bane/WoR/Hallowed ground/purging flames/retreat/SoA and stand your ground. Normally i will slot retreat but when bosses/mobs like to cc, i’ll bring Syg instead. Hence I normally only have one shout on my bar only.

I personally think master of consecration is very important if u are the only guardian in a party because its WoR is so good in fractals and in some dungeons as well (SE/arah/CM) comes to my mind. If u really want 30 in honor, then i will recommend 0/30/0/30/10 or 15/15/0/30/10.

@obtena
I feel that your way of looking at critical damage is faulty. Assuming 100% crit chance and full zerker armour, u will have 78% crit damage. So ur overall mutliplier for critical damage is 2.28×. Adding an additional 30% crit damage makes it into 2.58×. Overall damage increase is 2.58/2.28= 1.13 times. Hence even at 100% crit chance, the 30% extra crit damage only increasing your damage by 13%. Of course, if u look at an example with of a character with ppt armour, the result will be increasing ur damage more than 13% but definitely less than 20.1%.

I’m not sure what you are saying .. the chart is pretty easy to follow there. It tells you the damage increase for a ‘critical co-ordinate’ normalized to the baseline crit damage and chance.

If I’m starting at (50,50) and I go to (50,80), my damage goes from 1.5x the base to 1.65x the base.

@ obtena

Your damage goes from 1.5x the base to 1.65x the base. But that is when it is compared against base damage.

If u compare the damage between (50,50) to (50,80) , the increase is 1.65x/1.5x =1.1×. Meaning that at (50,80), u are dealing 1.10x the damage as compared to (50,50). Damage increase of only 10% as compared to (50,50)

Hope u can understand what i am saying.

Kilandros.2098:

To be honest it’s difficult to acknowledge every single one of your points, particularly as your increasingly intractable position has left you increasingly difficult to communicate with civilly. So yes, I am being rather selective.
The point that I’m trying to make—indeed the point that keeps eluding you—is that we’re all in fact talking about what you refer to as “opportunity cost” (i.e., traits in one line take away from another line). The point that has been repeatedly made—and the point that you continue to argue uphill against—is that 10 in Virtues pays dividends in opportunity cost.
In other words, no matter what you’re trying to do, 10 (or more) in Virtues generates more “bang for its buck” than 10 (or more) spent elsewhere.

And what you keep missing is that it is situational. Your basic point is that 10 points in virtue is a must. I said it is not. You tried to use an example of a specific situations to make a point that I never contested (that it has it’s uses). However, like I said WoR does not need it to be a good skill at base level it is a great skill. UC has its uses but in many fights your Aegis will be gone before you know it (in many other it will be their the entire time). In either case you chose to pick an argument and I just do not see the value of continuing.

Like I said before players will constantly like consumers justify their purchase while ignoring all other options or simply undermining them. I never argued up hill but you have presented in your post the prime example of the mindset I mentioned in my first post.

The main problem is that you are not reading and I am tired of discussing this with you. What you see as me eluding the point is you simply not reading my post. If you wont read it then……..whats the point of discussion. So lets end this here.

Sutcliffe.5491:

@ obtena

Your damage goes from 1.5x the base to 1.65x the base. But that is when it is compared against base damage.

If u compare the damage between (50,50) to (50,80) , the increase is 1.65x/1.5x =1.1×. Meaning that at (50,80), u are dealing 1.10x the damage as compared to (50,50). Damage increase of only 10% as compared to (50,50)

Hope u can understand what i am saying.

Yup, I understand.

Hi

Pure of voice is bad. Absolute resolution + purging is actually more condition cleansing than PoV 2 shouts is (3 is a very unlikely scenario), and purging also has a very short 28s CD . If needed you can also use renewed focus to refresh your virtue of resolve.

Pure of voice is a very big investment into a traitline that isn’t really amazing (5-10 points in this line are probably best), whereas you should already be pumping virtues for MoC (such a powerful trait, there is really no reason not to have it) and other goodies like Power of the Virtuous which should be ~3-5% damage boost even in less organised groups (might fury swiftness vigour etc)….

Well, unscathed contender’s uptime differns from dungeon to dungeon. I AC for example i would only have about 40% uptime too. But i don’t take my guardian into AC anyway. Uptime on slave driver/searing effigy on the other hand would be close to 100% again. In any way, even 20% uptime only would make it, together with PotV (6-7 boons in a party) already stronger than elusive power with 100% uptime.

20-30 in virtues is still stronger than not running it even without master of consecrations. It is good to take master of consecrations because consecrations are very strong in dungeons (either reflections, condition removal, might stacking (fire fields). But it is also to pick up Absolute Resolution which is our strongest condition removal, pure of voice is weaker if you don’t take 3 shouts and it forces you to use your shouts in order to remove conditions well. Which means you can run less skills on your bar, also Absolute resolution can be re applied if you want to by using renewed focus and doing it all over again. Not to mention boon duration and virtue recharge rate is better than healing power and vitality. In conclusion 20-30 points in virtues is better than 0-5 points in virtues

1. My big concern about using PoV for condition cleansing is that you end up wasting a Shout(boons) for condition cleaning instead of using it for it’s main purpose. Also in some case you need WoR and another utility, leaving you with only 1 shout for condi removal.

2. My boss encounter last only a couple of second, I barely have to dodge, dodging lower your DPS by a lot, correctly using Aegis/Projectile reflect and things like Max melee range you should be able to keep aegis for the whole fight without having to dodge.

3. Sure at first 30 in Honor may feel better, but if you learn to play with the meta, you’ll see it’s better in the end. You’ll be able to sustain better average damage without sacrificing any survability.

Dub.1273:

Well, unscathed contender’s uptime differns from dungeon to dungeon. I AC for example i would only have about 40% uptime too. But i don’t take my guardian into AC anyway. Uptime on slave driver/searing effigy on the other hand would be close to 100% again. In any way, even 20% uptime only would make it, together with PotV (6-7 boons in a party) already stronger than elusive power with 100% uptime.

Please teach me how to get 100% uptime on Aegis for Slave Driver… He can’t stop facing me and keeps swinging his fire sword around. I tried sneaking around his butt but he keeps on turning towards me and hits me

2x FGS, temporal curtain to wall, 2x Rush, watch his health melt in 2 seconds.

Edit: 1800 seconds “flood control”. It’s getting ridiculous.

Edit2: Oh forum…

But Honor is wonderful…

Unscathed Defender is, without contest, our strongest dps trait, and one of THE strongest DPS traits available to any class. You have to remember that damage modifiers are multiplicative with one another. The more you can utilize the better, each becomes respectively. Let’s take a typical build (10/30/0/5/25), it has (10% * 10% * 5%[sword] * 8% [Assuming 8 boons] * 20%) for its modifiers. This gives a total of 64.6 (likely rounded up/down to nearest whole ). If it were additive the total would only be 53. Using a 10/30/0/30/0 build, the modifiers would only produce a (10+10+5+10) total of 39.7% increase, or 35% if it were additive (again, it IS multiplicative.). The difference is HUGE. Even if you make the assumption of 33%-66% uptime, it is still the most potent bonus we can maintain. This trait is extremely difficult to maintain, but anyone who favors more effortless traits (elusive power) should not misunderstand the potency of Unscathed.

That said, some areas of PvE (boss encounters, trash, world bosses) may not make it easy to maintain. It is situations like this, though, that you would likely switch to Consecration mastery anyway. Keep in mind, though, that even without Unscathed active the 10/30/0/5/25 build maintains a 35.9% modifier (assuming 7 boons, since Aegis is not active), this is only slightly less than the 10/30/0/30/0, which was 39.7%. The difference in potential with Aegis active and inactive is roughly 28.7%. Using this percentage, we can assume a relative value based on uptime by [Uptime as decimal * 0.287] = [0.33 * 0.287] = 0.947 = 9.47% OR [ 0.66 * 0.287 ] = 18.9% for 66%.

So even if you only have aegis up a third of the time, you should see higher effective output than a 10/30/0/30/0 build even IF you don’t maintain all 8 boons 100% of the time.

Edit: corrected some of my… grammar.

Good math, not sure I’m 100% on the active/inactive percentile. Still reading it forward and backwards.

Point is though, what I’m reading says, “IF” you can keep aegis up, you can have a massive increase in damage.

If you can’t keep aegis up, then you will do about the same if not slightly more than 10/30/0/30/0 due to averaging of aegis up time.

So 10/30/0/30/0 and 10/30/0/5/25 are about the same in a normal fight, but in certain boss fights unscathed defender makes you amazing.

That said, people who run 10/30/0/30/0 are “just as effective” as a 10/30/0/5/25 except for a few unique encounters.

Which while slightly off topic, is the reason why a lot of people didn’t like unscathed defender very much at first, and still reluctant to use it now. It “IS” our best dps trait, you just have to either be perfect and in a specific encounter that allows for its utilization.

So the average player opts not to take it because they are not perfect and/or not doing those specific encounters.

I guess that’s my round about way of saying 10/30/0/30/0 is just fine for the average person if they want to take that. Or they can go 10/25/0/25/10 and get all the damage mods, but then will the build be useful? Some people run it.

edit: Also, crit damage “is” a multiplier, and while it is typically better to have more than one multiplier due to them being multiplicative and totaling up better, having 30% extra crit damage in valor is still an increase in damage, assuming a high frequency of crits.

So I think evaluation of builds based on damage multipliers should include the crit damage as well.