Guild Wars 2

It is a statistical assumption that if you have a 33% or 66% uptime, you would gain approximately that amount of value out of the total value. It is an average over a hypothetical infinite time frame, but we make a lot of these assumptions in this discussion anyway.

I agree, Unscathed has a very high “skill cap” to utilize at its full potential. However, it doesn’t take much uptime to make it very competitive.

One other thing to note: Damage Modifiers and Critical damage to not interact the way damage modifiers do. They are effectively calculated after damage is – something like [(Base Damage * (1 + DamageMod% as decimal)) * [1+CritDam% (as a decimal)]. So you cannot just add the crit modifier to the damage modifier.

Include PotV and you’re at least as effective as one with 10/30/0/30/0 but have more boon duration, quicker virtue recharge, gain an immense dps boost at *most*, not *a few very specific* encounters *and* get more condition removal if required plus higher consecration uptime, resulting in better "support".

So say you have the following dmg mods:
10%, 10%, 10% with a total crit dmg of 200% (150 base and 50 gear).

1000 damage would go like this:
Base – 1000
10% – 1100
10% – 1210
10% – 1331
Crit – 2662

What if we flip it around now,

Base – 1000
Crit – 2000
10% – 2200
10% – 2420
10% – 2662

Now lets put all the dmg mods and crit together
1.1*1.1*1.1*2 = 2.662
Base damage – 1000
Dmg mods & crit = 2662

So could you not put crit in with dmg mods and it still calculates? or am I missing something. Admittedly I am horrible at math, so trying to learn not just argue.

Anicetus.1253:

Include PotV and you’re at least as effective as one with 10/30/0/30/0 but have more boon duration, quicker virtue recharge, gain an immense dps boost at most, not a few very specific encounters and get more condition removal if required plus higher consecration uptime, resulting in better “support”.

Depends on how you total up the encounters I think.

Trash – Good luck keeping it up…but most dungeon runners sprint past trash anyway, so it is a non factor to them and dosn’t count.

Open world pve – Most things die faster than they can hit you back, so unless you train a lot on yourself it will be available, but this is a non issue for most people since open world pve is not hard

Open world bosses and mini bosses – These vary more often and are increasingly difficult to keep aegis up due to adds or general ae spam as they are often balanced for masses of people attacking it, thus the attacks are more frequent and harder to manipulate with dodges and blinds, aegis is less effective here…but open world is again typically easy so non issue.

Dungeons – Most of these are drastically easy to keep aegis available, so for the dungeon runner demographic unscathed contender is the best thing ever to ensure high dps (this is where most people that opt for it spend most of their time, thus the other scenarios don’t exist to them).

PvP/WvW – almost impossible to maintain aegis due to the masses of people attacking at a more frequent rate than PvE, so almost worthless to get unscathed contender with the exception of some burst builds where you can get the jump on someone and try to 100-0 the target.

I agree it is a great trait for what it does, but trying to identify that it works in a specific aspect of the game, which is not the majority of the game… Although the other areas pretty much don’t count as they are open world, and then in pvp/wvw you are not really relying on max dps but more survival so you trait differently in the first place.

edit: forgot to mention you still have a good point about added utility due to virtue refresh and boon duration. So it is equivalent dps in both builds, not counting unscathed defender, but more* utility with virtues. Honor’s utility mostly lies in condition removal and heals, while virtue has more flavor and variation with boons and active usage of virtues.

@CMF

Truthfully, it is mainly precautionary that I seperate the two. Mathematically (multiplicative property), it would be perfectly acceptable to multiply the two numbers in order to create an effective damage multiplier total, however, unless you can be assured of 100% crit, you need to give Crit damage the same treatment that I have given Unscathed [Uptime% as decimal * (1.5+CritDamage%)] to come up with a relative value given <100% crit chance. Additionally, the product of this sort of number leads to larger numbers; typically, when displaying numbers, you want to make the numbers as easy to understand and small as possible.

It is easier, objectively, to view the total damage modifier and total critical damage as two numbers. Otherwise you would see something like [50% damage modifier * 200% crit modifier = 300% “damage”], which is true given a vacuum, but really skews the expectations of someone trying to reference the information who doesn’t understand the math that is being shown to them.

It is better to convey a 35.9% damage modifier with 70% Critical Damage and 66% Critical Chance when trying to compare between builds. You “can” multiply these numbers together [(1000 * (135.9% * (220% * 66%))) = (1000 * 197.3%) = 1973] to generate a static “damage modifier,” but, applying this outside of a vacuum would be misleading if you did not have a firm understanding of averages/RNG.

for sure kelnis, I think it is still fare to apply crit damage, but ensure it is shown separately and it can given the same treatment as unscathed contender as it works in much the same way when trying to average out up time and down time.

So if I understood it right from your previous example.

50% crit chance with a 200% crit damage total, would end up being

(frequency of crits) * (difference in damage) = (average increase of damage)
(.5) * (2) = 1

So 200% crit damage with 50% crit chance would provide 100% extra damage, and not 200% due to half the hits being crits and half not.

This could then be shown with the “static” damage multipliers to give an overall estimate of increase in damage.

I don’t think we should ignore numbers because they are too big, and difficult for the observer to understand, but simply explain them more and show “how” it works and not just end result.

With all that said numbers wise. Wouldn’t it take more resources to go a crit damage build. Then using a raw damage build? I’m just looking at this in a passer by sense.

Silentstorm.7531:

With all that said numbers wise. Wouldn’t it take more resources to go a crit damage build. Then using a raw damage build? I’m just looking at this in a passer by sense.

Not sure what you mean by that. But damage modifiers > crit damage which is why most dps builds dont bother with points in valor. The damage modifiers are in other trait lines and are more important. This is because the base damage is multiplied by the damage modifiers and then that is multiplied by the crit modifier.

Well I think it is shown that the damage modifiers and the crit damage do count for each other, and I believe there is a balancing point where you “could” opt for crit damage to make up for not getting a 5% or 10% damage mod here and there.

The trick is, where can this be sacrificed and at what frequency of crits can this become reliable.

If you just take the maximum resulting damage with crit damage and damage modifiers you can see potential damage maximum

But as as kelnis pointed out (like unscathed contender) you may want to calculate for average up time or in other words, frequency of crits. This would show you the dps of a build and not just max burst damage, and when using abilities over duration, dps is what matters typically.

So say you have damage mods of: 10%, 10%, 10%, 5% with only 150% crit damage.

Your base attack is 1000 damage
with damage mods (39.7%) and base crit damage (50%) you get
1397 raw damage and
2096 crit damage

Lets drop one of the 10% and get 30% more crit damage and see what we get.
10%, 10%, 5% (27.1%) damage mods with (80%) crit damage
1000 * 1.2705 = 1270 raw damage
1270 * 1.8 = 2286 crit damage

Still if you are not 100% crit chance you need to take that into consideration, so lets apply the average uptime formula to our 180% crit damage to see the estimated effective damage modifier.

50% crit chance with 180% crit damage would result in the difference of damage of 80% of normal damage
0.5 * 0.8 = 0.4 (40% damage modifier with crits)

So lets put that in with our raw damage mods now.
10%, 10%, 5%, and crit damage mod of 40%
1000 * 1.2705 = 1270.5 * 1.4 = 1778.7

1270 raw damage
1778 crit damage (averaged for 50% crit chance)

giving the 10%, 10%, 10%, 5% with 50% crit damage the same treatment
0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 (25% damage mod with crits)

1000 * 1.39755 = 1397.55 raw damage
1397.55 * 1.25 = 1746.9375

To sum it up
10%, 10%, 10%, 5% damage mods with 150% crit damage
1397 raw damage
1746 crit damage (averaged for 50% crit chance)

10%, 10%, 5% damage mods with 180% crit damage
1270 raw damage
1778 crit damage (averaged for 50% crit chance)

This in a “vacuum” though, because gear would push crit damage around and adjust the scale to the point that 30% extra crit from valor may not be worth it.

again, I had to stop and think about this one a few times, so unsure if I used the average uptime formula correctly. Correct me please if I am off target.

CMF.5461:

So if I understood it right from your previous example.

50% crit chance with a 200% crit damage total, would end up being

(frequency of crits) * (difference in damage) = (average increase of damage)
(.5) * (2) = 1

So 200% crit damage with 50% crit chance would provide 100% extra damage, and not 200% due to half the hits being crits and half not.

This could then be shown with the “static” damage multipliers to give an overall estimate of increase in damage.

I don’t think we should ignore numbers because they are too big, and difficult for the observer to understand, but simply explain them more and show “how” it works and not just end result.

It isn’t a matter of what you or I “think,” though, there are numerous sources available that discuss and describe how to display numbers in a coherent and understandable way. If you are going to compare x, y, z trait setups (with or without gear) I would recommend you separate the three figures, using my character sheet as an example, as such:

56.8% DamageMod, 78% CritDamage, 51% CritChance

This is excluding Scholar runes/Force sigils and excluding the base 150% CritDamage. We can assume the base CritDamage is always 150%. If we had another build, using the same gear, we’d get (10/30/0/30/0):

33.1% DamageMod, 78% CritDamage, 53% CritChance

OR, if using a Sword

39.7% DamageMod, 78% CritDamage, 68% CritChance

Anyway, this is not a perfect method either, as gear becomes a factor, ideally we would want to calculate these three values given trait selection alone. From a damage perspective, that would create a situation which makes the least assumptions about gear. As we could then do something like (Equipment Values) + (Trait Values) + (Skill Values), “Values” being defined as "Damage Mod, CritDamage, CritChance), and we could modularize the comparison of builds. However, at this point, I’m just going off on a tangent.

Regarding your math:
1000 – Base Damage
39.7% – Damage Mod
150% – Critical Damage
1397 – Normal Hit
2096 – Critical Hit

1000 – Base Damage
27% – Damage Mod
180% – Critical Damage
1270 – Normal Hit
2286 – Critical Hit

-127 Normal Hit, +190 Crit Damage difference, -12% Damage Mod, +30% Crit Damage

If you hadn’t compared these numbers, it should be pretty apparent that Damage Mods are more valuable than Crit Damage – Some examples below, trying to emulate your style:

1000 – Base Damage
1397 – Modified Base
50% – Critical Chance
150% – Critical Damage
25% – CritMod (0.5*0.5)
74.63% – “Average Damage Mod” ((1+39.7%) * (1+25%)) – You can skip this step if you just multiply (Modified Base * (1+CritMod))
1746 – Average Damage Per Swing

1000 – Base Damage
1270 – Modified Base
27% – Damage Mod
50% – Critical Chance
180% – Critical Damage
40% – CritMod (0.5*0.8)
77.8% – Average Damage Mod
1778 – Average Damage Per Swing

1000 – Base Damage
1270 – Modified Base
27% – Damage Mod
66% – Critical Chance
180% – Critical Damage
52.8% – CritMod (0.66*0.8)
94% – Average Damage Mod
1940 – Average Damage Per Swing

1000 – Base Damage
1397 – Modified Base
39.7% – Damage Mod
50% – Critical Chance
180% – Critical Damage
40% – CritMod (0.5*0.8)
95.6% – Average Damage Mod
1956 – Average Damage Per Swing

Sorry, not trying to argue that crit damage is better. I whole heatedly agree and see that damage mods are better, my goal was to find a balancing point where we could sacrifice a damage mod here and there and make up for it with crit damage, and at what point that becomes just as effective.

I.E open up more builds via theory crafting.

As it is now,it is difficult to gain sustainability while building for full damage via damage mods, and in PvE that is fine because the fights are tailored to work in a way that squishy builds are able to persist as long as you can front the damage and dodge appropriately.

So is there a way to build self sustain while maintaining as much potential damage as the full dmg mod setups? Can crit damage fulfill that role and allow people to continue taking AH or MF (our only two reliable sustain mechanics, other than regeneration that requires gearing for healing power to make it more effective).

So I’m just trying to tweek numbers to keep damage up while moving trait points around and such.

It doesnt work that way. Damage mods are always better than crit damage. The only time that wouldnt be the case is if you are trading something like a 5% mod for 30% crit damage.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

Just use the average damage increase table in this page, u will realize that a 30% increase in crit damage isn’t that big of a boost to your damage if u already high levels of critical damage. If u are in full berserker/assassin armour, the damage increase is most probably only around 12% or so for a +30% crit damage.

For other values of crit chance with cri damage, please use the table and compare it yourself.

Thanks obtena for pointing out the table on the wiki

Well it does “work that way” it is a damage mod, but having multiple damage mods instead of heavy stacking one damage mod works better due to the multiplicity of the mods.

I can have 30% increase to damage, or I can have 3 10% increases to damage, resulting in 33.1% as opposed to a flat 30%.

Then as was mentioned before, the percentage of chance for crit to happen lowers the actual number seen to a lower average number.

So yes, damage mods are better than crit damage, but crit damage still applies when talking about pushing damage. There “is” a point where crit damage would push out over a damage mod, but it has to be a really low damage mod versus a really high crit damage value and or crit chance.

So general rule of thumb, you are of course correct, damage mods are better, but crit damage shouldn’t just be ignored.

I think the magic answer here is that armor and gear supplies all the crit damage we need, thus mitigating the value of crit damage.

I dunno why you needed to post that. You essentially just repeated what I said and agreed with me but with more words. :P

Just clarifying that it is a useful stat, with reasoning and content to clarify for any additional readers so that we are all educated and not just repeating others actions without knowledge. Teach a man to fish.

Well what I was trying to say is. By design they wouldn’t let you be a tank and dps cannon too. So you have the limitation numbers wise. Of having to dedicate way more gear traits towards being a crit damage build. Which would leave you very little else where in wiggle room.

On the flipside of that you don’t have to do that damage modifier route. You have more room to tinker and higher damage over all for less tinkering. But downside is now you have no defense if hit lights out. Some people don’t like that sort of style. Yea you look pro if you don’t get hit. But a larger majority of gaming population. Says “F that I want a more balanced stable build”

This is where the argument comes in. And like I said no right or wrong exists in a players choice. It’s his or her choice outside opinions don’t matter.

I agree with the objective, as far as build diversity; I’ve been a strong advocate of player choice in builds since launch – I think of myself as one of the early adopters in regards to damage oriented Guardian builds. I stopped using AH-oriented builds in PvE very early on moving toward the radiance/honor builds that brazil made popular.

Regardless, I definitely support breaking out of the “accepted norms” as much as possible, when possible. At this stage in the game, though, nothing has drastically changed our DPS meta since launch. The community has had a lot of time to determine what works well and what doesn’t. You have to be willing to ignore the peer pressure that is associated with being “less good” and be more concerned with enjoying whichever playstyle you decide to embrace.

I really hope whatever Jon was teasing regarding damage-dealing Guardian leads to some new discussion regarding our build options. I’d really love a reason to use our spirit weapons or a reason to go more than 20 points into Zeal.

I agree kelnis, we are not there yet in terms of breaking away from our current builds, but I am constantly playing spreadsheet and theory crafting as I try to find something new and different than the norm…I’m so hipster :p

Thanks for the math info, it helps a ton Kelnis, and I will keep digging away till I find some new magic build/formula that takes us to the next level.

After reverting back to the meta for a couple of days while keeping constant tab to this thread, I have decided to break the silence knowing full well that my build, opinion and results will be bashed and challenged to no end.

First off, I feel that I have to repeat myself that I tend to PUG for dungeons (excluding FotM 48 which I do use the meta for with my buddies). Yes that makes me a PUG as well and the forum community likes to pretend people like me do not exist or simply associate us with bad reputation of poor skill instantly across the board.

Like the rest of the community of this forum, I had an awesome make up group a long time ago that plays CoF P1 (our record is iirc 4 min 49 sec or 4 min 59 sec from the first gate where Magg would first blast it open) repeatedly for 8 hours a day till 3 of us farmed ourselves an Eternity each. Long story short, at that point of time we were not supposed to dodge because if dodging make me miss by 1 swing to make use of Unscathed Contender, I will need few swings to cover back the same damage that I could otherwise have done if I stand my ground on through the entire fight by traiting 30 into Valor. It was a time where 10/30/30/0/0 was the meta DPS build back then and Brutaly hammer build was (and perhaps still) widely used.

Fast forwarding to today, alot of old players have left. My static group had quit, leaving myself more or less stranded to earn ingame gold through dungeons with PUGs. One thing I have noticed is that 90% of these PUGs do not have more than 5k achievement points denoting that they are relatively new or inexperienced players. I have chatted with some of the PUG guardians and they are mostly using 0/0/30/30/10 or 0/15/30/20/5 (and other slight variants) to stay alive as that build is ALOT more forgiving than our new meta here. Here we are complaining that PUGs are bad and whatnot because they are using AH when they simply do not have the luxury of magically increasing their player skill to the level that this community allegedly claims to have to maintain Aegis.

It took me alot of effort and time to practise in the same dungeons (AC and CoF) again and again over the past 2 days to practise dodges and bosses telegraph to its exact precision and even then, I still make mistakes from time to time. I was barely able to keep my Aegis uptime to around 40-60% when I fight Howling King. The adds just keep coming and I have to put in alot of very active effort to press F3 and retreat to accomplish that. No pain no gain, right? Maybe, but is it really worth the effort to lose a 30 Honor HP buffer, heal on dodge and empowering might, 2 handed mastery etc so that I can end a fight a few seconds faster.

May I remind you readers once again that all these take place in PUG groups. I do not use PoV if the fight does not need it (like CoF), but it is good to know that with PoV and 2 shouts plus Purging Flame, I have 3 active condition removals, 2 of which can be life savers due to their 600 range and instant cast nature. If you are skipping mobs in say… AC P1, a newbie who does not have stability and/or enough condition removal will struggle to make it to the boss at the tunnels nearing the end of the dungeon. With 2 shouts to remove conditions when skipping mobs, it is invaluable when I think about the 1.5 minutes I had saved to wait for or re-run with the folks that did not make it. I am fully aware that Purging Flame and Absolute Resolution are great condition removing tools. However, only AR is party friendly when you are running for your lives and that only counts as a 1-time condition removal; Purging Flames sometimes just come out too late and its radius is not particularly big either. Has it ever occurred to you that there’s a chance that the conditions can be applied again to any of your group members and they may not have their condition removal up in time to bail out of the situation? Occassionally, I will still die to immobilise when I solo Magg to the ore in CoF P2. I have 3 Aegis, AR and Purging Flames but sometimes bad luck CAN happen and Purging Flames is just too slow to save myself from the immobilise reapplication and PUG tend to shy away from doing this part so I have to solo it most of the time. In your elite pre-made groups, I’m sure you can all make it to the end very very easily, but I do not believe the majority of the player base actually play in pre-made groups with all 5 extremely good players in it. Haven’t you people carry bad or inexperienced guildies before?

10/30/0/30/0 is in my opinion, the most well rounded DPS build, closest to the current DPS meta (minus UC) but much more forgiving and versatile in terms of gameplay. If everyone and especially PUG begin to use it, I am sure that the overall quality of PUG players will increase significantly as it is the first step out of AH with high sustainability, condition removals and reasonably high damage (again, minus UC) because seriously, in these few days when I really really look at my boons during dungeon boss fights, I only see 4-6 unique boons at best in every party and the shout “Save Yourselves” only last this long.

I could go on, but I’m kind of done. I want to think of my playstyle as one of a teamplayer. You can travel faster solo, but you will certainly travel further in a group.

The damage of UC is superb, Purging Flames and Absolute Resolution are very nice to remove conditions. I however, do not want to re-spec every time I do dungeon, wvw and open world events. I recognise the merits of 10/30/0/5/25 and the damage this build offer has no challenge, and so is its ability to provide boons though on a relatively long cooldown and I am genuinely happy to know that there are very pro players that can keep Aegis up 90% of the time. I am however, not such a near perfect player like you guys are. I dodge and I do make mistakes here and there, but I can try. I no longer have a group that can do record breaking runs, but I make do and lower my expectations.

To sum up, I am not making a meta DPS build. I am introducing a very forgiving DPS build that is not exactly effortless but at least provide a less steep learning curve build that can be used by anyone lazy or otherwise and still remain somewhat competitive enough if the individual cannot afford the time to learn boss telegraph from experience to keep Aegis up. Of course 10% boon duration and UC/MoC from 0/30/0/30/10 is a very strong contender, but 100 power and 10% damage from Zeal is very enticing as well. Do not forget that consecration can be used untraited. Traiting for it lowers cooldown and improve uptime. If fights end as fast as this forum seem to claim, then is the 2 second extra from MoC even necessary? Not everyone melees in PUG and there is a good chance they will not listen to a mere player in a group (I melee exclusively) and shouts are in my humble opinion, easier to keep buff on ranged party members; I just want to have a build that is prepared for all situations.

The herd mentality is very strong in this forum. With this, I will end my wall of flamebait text and change my current build from the meta back to 10/30/0/30/0. I apologise to hardcore critics in advance for failing to comply with the meta due to the above reasons.

If your gonna go 30 in honour for a pug build you are better off going 0/30/0/30/10 so you can take master of consecrations. 10 in virtues is too important in any team setup, pug or organized group. In a low dps group having better WoR uptime is even more important even if its only you who is standing in it.

Carlos, try not to take people that tell you how you should play seriously. I know there are several in this thread that need to try being helpful instead of being narcissistic. Regardless, play how you want, or have, to play. I just enjoy the theorycrafting aspect of determining the “best.”

That said, I am in a situation similar to your own; my typical group is no longer playing or very inactive and if I want to do a dungeon, I have to pug. Truthfully, I just don’t do dungeons that often. When I do, I typically run a more typical/balanced build (0/30/0/30/10, switching to Knights+Soldiers armor if the group needs the extra condition removal, or dropping UC for Master of Consecrations when called for).

However, I am more willing than most to change my traits/armor given a situation. I have roughly four sets of armor I use regularly(Soldier Stats+Melandru, Knights Stats+Soldier, Berserker Stats+Scholar, Celestial Stats+Boon Duration), each set is meant to compliment a particular trait setup for whatever aspect of the PvE/WvW I need to focus on. Many of these trait setups are not static, sometimes I try random builds for fun and they’re either a bust or they end up surprisingly effective.

My point is, like I said above, play how you want – be conscious of the meta – but don’t treat it like gospel. The community, and most other gaming communities, have a tendency toward toxic behavior when it comes to something different from the accepted norm. It is, unfortunately, something that will likely get worse as time goes on. Tune out the swill, press your buttons, and play whichever way you deem appropriate.

Also, regarding Unscathed, there are several situations in many dungeons where maintaining UC is nearly impossible. Sure, on the bosses it is not unusual to easily maintain 50% or higher, but trash is a different story. If you can show me a video of someone LITERALLY maintaining Aegis for 66-100% of a dungeon run I will give you my piano.

Carlos.9104:

10/30/0/30/0 is in my opinion, the most well rounded DPS build, closest to the current DPS meta (minus UC) but much more forgiving and versatile in terms of gameplay. If everyone and especially PUG begin to use it, I am sure that the overall quality of PUG players will increase significantly as it is the first step out of AH with high sustainability, condition removals and reasonably high damage (again, minus UC) because seriously, in these few days when I really really look at my boons during dungeon boss fights, I only see 4-6 unique boons at best in every party and the shout “Save Yourselves” only last this long.

I could go on, but I’m kind of done. I want to think of my playstyle as one of a teamplayer. You can travel faster solo, but you will certainly travel further in a group.

The damage of UC is superb, Purging Flames and Absolute Resolution are very nice to remove conditions. I however, do not want to re-spec every time I do dungeon, wvw and open world events. I recognise the merits of 10/30/0/5/25 and the damage this build offer has no challenge, and so is its ability to provide boons though on a relatively long cooldown and I am genuinely happy to know that there are very pro players that can keep Aegis up 90% of the time. I am however, not such a near perfect player like you guys are. I dodge and I do make mistakes here and there, but I can try. I no longer have a group that can do record breaking runs, but I make do and lower my expectations.

To sum up, I am not making a meta DPS build. I am introducing a very forgiving DPS build that is not exactly effortless but at least provide a less steep learning curve build that can be used by anyone lazy or otherwise and still remain somewhat competitive enough if the individual cannot afford the time to learn boss telegraph from experience to keep Aegis up. Of course 10% boon duration and UC/MoC from 0/30/0/30/10 is a very strong contender, but 100 power and 10% damage from Zeal is very enticing as well. Do not forget that consecration can be used untraited. Traiting for it lowers cooldown and improve uptime. If fights end as fast as this forum seem to claim, then is the 2 second extra from MoC even necessary? Not everyone melees in PUG and there is a good chance they will not listen to a mere player in a group (I melee exclusively) and shouts are in my humble opinion, easier to keep buff on ranged party members; I just want to have a build that is prepared for all situations.

The herd mentality is very strong in this forum. With this, I will end my wall of flamebait text and change my current build from the meta back to 10/30/0/30/0. I apologise to hardcore critics in advance for failing to comply with the meta due to the above reasons.

Nice summary, although you might want to consider chaning to x/x/x/x/10 for a few dungeons like CM or Arah, especially when pugging.

@Carlos
I simply have to disagree on some points u made.

I think that the biggest advantage in 25 virtues is its versatility, If u dun need either master of consecrations or absolute resolution , u can simply take unscathed contender for a decent damage boost. But i nvr think that unscathed contender is the core of a 25 virtues built unless u are in organised speed runs. Even without unscathed contender, a 10/30/0/5/25 built is going to outdamage a 10/30/0/30/0 built given the same amount and types of boons.

U say that with pov u can have 2×600 range life saver condition conversion if u slot 2 shouts. Have u thought of taking renewed focus in the 25 virtues built? It gives u 2×1200 range life saver condition removal and 2x 1200 range aegis block for your team as well if u spam the virtues and renewed focus immediately. I really dun think having POV is much better unless u are considering taking 3 shouts.

Just for ur info for COF p2 during the magg running part, u dun take purging flames. Instead u should take smite conditions or contemplation of purity since they already buffed it to take effect immediately. Normally i will take retreat/smite conditions/CoP/renewed focus.

Your point about MoC being moot is contradicting. U say u normally play with unexperienced pugs in which fights will last longer. Thats where MoC actually shines because i cant depend on pugs to give me reflects at the right time. So by taking MoC, i can have 12s of reflection 20s of absorption and another 12s of reflection..just close 44s of projectile protection counting shield downtime. Even if your party members dun stand directly behind the wall of reflection, they still get the projectile immunity considering they are not standing too far away from u.

All that being said, i do agree that the extra vitality and the dodge roll heals are pretty nice in the honor traitline and that i am only trying to show my point of view regarding your arguments against the 10/30/0/5/25 built. If u really dislike it, then go for your 10/30/0/30/0 built