Guild Wars 2

Why are guardian changes always so boring?
I know devs say it’s the most balanced class but come on, it never feels exciting.

Lucentfir.7430:

Kyle.3856:

From the ele forums:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Treborlavok.3504:

just like the guardians 5 trait for vigor on crit… its ok for them to have a 10 second single condition cure at adept…?

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

………. Uh oh….

Really…..so on top of having to be a melee fighter class, with the lowest HP, no real mobility and having every other class being able to outrun us you’re going to mess with this trait. Pretending to buff the DPS…yeah….sure…..please clarify Devs what you actually intend to do with the trait….because right now I’m feeling it’s going to impact guardian greatly. i don’t know if I’m overacting or not but that’s really nothing light to take in, that’s pretty heavy.

so they want us to stay in one spot and can’t chase or run from others. but they don’t want us to be too strong. they want us to be more supportive and defensive. so they will take away our more notable defensive utilities and traits.

and who the frack is this Treborlavok (the one complaining about Guardians vigor and purity traits)? normally i don’t complain “much” about the Guardian class. or i’ve been largely positive with the class. but i HATE it when others complain about classes they don’t play. so now they’re going to mess with some of our core aspects cause some crybaby whines. wtf.

[edit: i’m probably overreacting too like Lucentfir says.. but still. frustating when they keep goign back and forth about where they want us to be. or actions don’t line up with talk. hopefully i’ll come back later when i’m a bit more calm to properly contribute.]

akamon.2769:

Lucentfir.7430:

Kyle.3856:

From the ele forums:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Treborlavok.3504:

just like the guardians 5 trait for vigor on crit… its ok for them to have a 10 second single condition cure at adept…?

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

………. Uh oh….

Really…..so on top of having to be a melee fighter class, with the lowest HP, no real mobility and having every other class being able to outrun us you’re going to mess with this trait. Pretending to buff the DPS…yeah….sure…..please clarify Devs what you actually intend to do with the trait….because right now I’m feeling it’s going to impact guardian greatly. i don’t know if I’m overacting or not but that’s really nothing light to take in, that’s pretty heavy.

so they want us to stay in one spot and can’t chase or run from others. but they don’t want us to be too strong. they want us to be more supportive and defensive. so they will take away our more notable defensive utilities and traits.

and who the frack is this Treborlavok (the one complaining about Guardians vigor and purity traits)? normally i don’t complain “much” about the Guardian class. or i’ve been largely positive with the class. but i HATE it when others complain about classes they don’t play. so now they’re going to mess with some of our core aspects cause some crybaby whines. wtf.

[edit: i’m probably overreacting too like Lucentfir says.. but still. frustating when they keep goign back and forth about where they want us to be. or actions don’t line up with talk. hopefully i’ll come back later when i’m a bit more calm to properly contribute.]

Not very often I see a post like this from you. :P I do agree though, Not only would this be a nerf to our survivability in terms of damage negation, but it would also hurt one of our biggest heals in terms of selfless daring. I can understand thief taking a hit, as they have two traits that give vigor, on top of a trait that auto returns some on dodge. Eles have the scepter trait that increases out of vigor regen, and also have the means to kite people around. And rangers have access to alot of evades from GS Auto, sword 2/3 dagger 4, and also a utility that is a dodge, and gives vigor. Changing both mesmer and Guardian would severely hurt both classes, due to other mechanics that rely on dodges, and are really both cores of their builds. (selfless daring for healing support, and the clone on dodge for pretty much any clone build a mesmer might use.)

akamon.2769:

so they want us to stay in one spot and can’t chase or run from others. but they don’t want us to be too strong. they want us to be more supportive and defensive. so they will take away our more notable defensive utilities and traits.

Yup, it doesn’t make much sense. Being stationary is probably the most confusing part imo. How is this beneficial in a highly dynamic game? If you are standing still then what is the point in having a melee weapon when you can’t hit anyone? Why are the range options worse than the melee ones if the class is meant to be stationary?

A lot of the design just doesn’t make sense to me.

Woah there guys…

That’s why we have Empower on the Staff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bchnLOT7ic

@Bash – lol i know right? but i mad. haha if these changes are really on the table. and yes, you made another good point. so general consensus is that both the Guard and Mesmer have the least mobility, so more often than not we’re hanging around for a fight (mesmer has stealth but i don’t play ‘em much so i can’t comment too much). and to take away core class mechanics that you’ve mentioned (selfless daring / clones) would be a pretty huge hit.

@Aza – come to think of it.. consecrations and symbols, also Guardian mechanics. but often we hear people complaing about them – no one stays in them, i don’t like being stationary, the fight is always on the move, etc. so again, they have always had that in mind but somehow missed out on our abilities to keep enemies within our melee-ing / stationary abilities range.

again, comes down to giving the Guardian some more CC options. if we’re meant to be stationary. and even then, they’re looking at nerfing our sustain abilities, at least allow us to hinder our enemies movements to any degree whether it be chills, cripples, torment, etc.

[added:

@Amins – XDDD you’re. absolutely. right.]

Kelnis.1829:

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

There are several possible variations that would be both considerable and welcome…

1) 5% Sword damage, Swords have a 33% chance to apply Torment on crit, 0.5s ICD. Conceivably, this would give us a tool that punishes movement away from us. It would vary in potency depending on Guardian build. I have several concerns with this idea:
a) It wouldn’t be enough to truly give Guardians a way to push a condition build.
b) It does not fit the theme of a Guardian as what I perceive that ANet perceives us as.
c) It would likely not be punishing enough to dissuade anyone from NOT running away. This would be primarily due to the lack of pressure we could apply if we were utilizing it well (high condition damage, sacrificing raw damage throughput.)

2a) 5% Sword damage, critical attacks have a 25% chance of granting 1s of swiftness, 0.5s ICD. This very specifically does not say “swords,” this would include all damage dealt by the guardian. This would supplement any build that was aiming for damage in such a way that if they are able to get on a target, the swiftness should – if used adequately – should help them stay on target. This would help to address our incombat sluggishness, by providing us with a subtle boost without relying on external sources. This would also be more reasonable with just swords being able to provide the swiftness.

2b) 5% sword damage, Sword attacks have a 10% chance of granting 10s of swiftness, 30s ICD. This is a less interesting option that has a much less drastic change on our balance as a class. With excessive boon duration (something you likely won’t see on a build focused on damage), you could see close to 66% uptime of swiftness from just this, but you’d probably see closer to 10-12 seconds on average. This provide us a moderate boost during our initial burst, but would not address our “field mobility.”

I am trying to stay within the constraints of the question, so hopefully you guys come up with something interesting. Also, Jon, still wanna know about Shattered Aegis!

Note to most other posters: please stay on topic, many of you are responding with general complaints/suggestions, but the question he most recently asked is very specific. Compare it to effects like Zealous Blade and brain storm from there.

Why do people keep suggesting random number generators for CC. I hate that idea. I mean if we look at it across the board sure there are some jobs that have bleed with crits etc like the warriors have. But many of the weapons of the other classes have built in crowd control on the skill, it isn’t something they have to trait for or pray that the RNG gives it at the right time.

Kyle.3856:

From the ele forums:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Treborlavok.3504:

just like the guardians 5 trait for vigor on crit… its ok for them to have a 10 second single condition cure at adept…?

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

………. Uh oh….

I don’t want to speak too loud without seeing the whole picture, but this is our only vigor granting (or anything realted to endurance management) tool. We don’t have neither inferior choices like the ele scepter trait (not even alternatives, like vigor on cantrip use) nor a single utility / weapon skill that grants vigor.
It seems like they somehow still think that our low health pool, low mobility, hard and soft CC lacking class is just naturally tanky thanks to an aegis and those 80 hp/sec.
I guess they should also make harder to take Inspired Virtue so we definitely lose any middle ground between holder/support with next to zero damage and 10/30/30/0/0 full burst specs.

Talyn.3295:

Kelnis.1829:

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

There are several possible variations that would be both considerable and welcome…

1) 5% Sword damage, Swords have a 33% chance to apply Torment on crit, 0.5s ICD. Conceivably, this would give us a tool that punishes movement away from us. It would vary in potency depending on Guardian build. I have several concerns with this idea:
a) It wouldn’t be enough to truly give Guardians a way to push a condition build.
b) It does not fit the theme of a Guardian as what I perceive that ANet perceives us as.
c) It would likely not be punishing enough to dissuade anyone from NOT running away. This would be primarily due to the lack of pressure we could apply if we were utilizing it well (high condition damage, sacrificing raw damage throughput.)

2a) 5% Sword damage, critical attacks have a 25% chance of granting 1s of swiftness, 0.5s ICD. This very specifically does not say “swords,” this would include all damage dealt by the guardian. This would supplement any build that was aiming for damage in such a way that if they are able to get on a target, the swiftness should – if used adequately – should help them stay on target. This would help to address our incombat sluggishness, by providing us with a subtle boost without relying on external sources. This would also be more reasonable with just swords being able to provide the swiftness.

2b) 5% sword damage, Sword attacks have a 10% chance of granting 10s of swiftness, 30s ICD. This is a less interesting option that has a much less drastic change on our balance as a class. With excessive boon duration (something you likely won’t see on a build focused on damage), you could see close to 66% uptime of swiftness from just this, but you’d probably see closer to 10-12 seconds on average. This provide us a moderate boost during our initial burst, but would not address our “field mobility.”

I am trying to stay within the constraints of the question, so hopefully you guys come up with something interesting. Also, Jon, still wanna know about Shattered Aegis!

Note to most other posters: please stay on topic, many of you are responding with general complaints/suggestions, but the question he most recently asked is very specific. Compare it to effects like Zealous Blade and brain storm from there.

Why do people keep suggesting random number generators for CC. I hate that idea. I mean if we look at it across the board sure there are some jobs that have bleed with crits etc like the warriors have. But many of the weapons of the other classes have built in crowd control on the skill, it isn’t something they have to trait for or pray that the RNG gives it at the right time.

Because the devs, thus far, have proven they are not willing to make changes to our baseline skills. Unfortunately, the most realistic thing we can do is resort to “solutions” that are comparable but different than what other traits function like. Again, he asked what additional effect we would like to see on the sword, I answered him in context of his inquiry, nothing more.

I have a ‘working list’ of potentially balanced and viable solutions for the Guardian class, but most people provide wildly exaggerated skill and trait changes that would too violently affect the meta. However, I do not provide such feedback without context from a dev.

Kelnis.1829

I have a ‘working list’ of potentially balanced and viable solutions for the Guardian class, but most people provide wildly exaggerated skill and trait changes that would too violently affect the meta. However, I do not provide such feedback without context from a dev.

How does your list compared to the one i posted?

As per my post, dev’s will need to look into fixing what we have currently as opposed to traits. Weapon set is ultimately the first thing to consider before changing traits. No point in changing a trait when your weapon is flawed to begin with.

I like a lot of these suggestions, specifically for sword I like the idea of either through traits or base function it reflecting projectiles instead of just absorbing them. Also I think I can live with being stationary while casting if the projectiles had piercing and moved much quicker/wider field. as someone stated its suppose to be a ranged punisher yet its very hard to hit someone with it at range.

overall I think the guardian really needs improvements fighting kiters. we are so poor at locking people down/ keeping up with runners. right now I run with sword/shield, hammer have bane signet, judges intervention, and save yourself yet I still spend most fights against ranged chasing them trying to lock them down only to get one or 2 hits before they slip away again.

I would like to see improved skills and traits that would allow guardians to stand their ground and rather than going after and pursuing enemies they would punish those enemies for choosing to attack them. more reflective damage, adding confusion to their condition list.

I’d also like to see improvements on existing skills to lock people down restrict their movement. shorten the cast time on ring of warding to half a second or make it castable while moving, expand what weapons are affected by glacial heart, or maybe a trait to make all symbols cause chill. protector’s strike cause chill, or have it pull enemies towards you when the counterattack goes off.

and please for the love of god reduce the cast time of banish, the wind up on that hit is way too long. its like the easiest ability in the world to avoid .

Tyler Chapman.1832

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

If this change has been indeed been on the table, I find it a little odd that Vigorous Precision which is the cornerstone of so many guardian builds hasn’t had a direct mention in the guardian patch notes – as I think changes to it will absolutely require a lot of careful consideration.

The question is, what change to this would be acceptable as a guardian. When most professions complain about a Guardian’s access to Vigor, they’ve been stuck in an endless fight with a bunker or have been slowly whittled to death by a Healway. ( conveniently ignoring how little damage is being dealt in those kinds of battles )

On the other hand, a DPS guardian really relies on Vigor to survive more than the first few seconds of a fight against high CC or burst classes.

If you have 10-12k of HP and low toughness, if you can’t evade the skullcrack, shatter or heartseeker you are dead ( in one or two shots in most cases ). If you can’t dodge through a necro mark you are dead a few seconds later because we can’t remove conditions reliably at that end of the tree

A lot of builds are forced to either run duel energy runes or push 5 points into honor ( or both ).

If Anet are dead-set on pushing vigor traits into adept traits, then what are our options? 10 points investment in Virtues? ( since a lot of guards DPS or otherwise will throw 5 points in there anyway ): that severely limits the support guardians options in an important tree.

If you push it further into Honor to keep the Selfless Daring synergy you end up crippling many damage builds, and limiting shout or symbol effectiveness.

Short of making it a class mechanic ( Virtue of Alacrity? Passive vigor/active swiftness ), I’m at a loss to come up with something that wouldn’t screw over a significant number of builds ( replace Valor 15? ). Perhaps the goal is to just prevent 100% vigor uptime, which I can agree on – it which case you could make Honor 5 give you a flat Endurance regeneration boost ( +50%? )

I really hope we can just keep it as it.

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

Hello Jon,

Thank you for checking back in on us. I do appreciate the extra 5% on sword/spear, so don’t take additional suggestions as meaning the 5% is worthless. It does help, but what I think others and myself mean is that it is ineffective in a vacuum. It needs soft CC in addition to the 5% to be effective.

I think giving us chill as a condition more readily available would solve the issue of keeping opponents in melee range in pvp environments, while assisting pve glass specs with higher survival due to slowed enemy attacks. I think blind exposure would be a good place to add the chill condition. This does not mean remove the vulnerability, but add chill to the vulnerability. The 10% suddenly becomes very effective if enemies can’t get away so easily. This instantly makes voj active and flashing blade options to keep opponents in melee range.

While I do appreciate attention to that one 1h sword trait, I think the bigger issue is the entire concept of symbols and their implementation. Symbols, by definition imply that we are supposed to face tank things while standing in the tiny circle. The symbol loses effectiveness entirely once we are no longer standing in the tiny circle. Any guardian guardian, not heavily invested in valor/honor, is a dead guardian if he is standing in the tiny circle instead of avoiding attacks. I much prefer to play my guardian as a mobile attacker with support options versus standing in the circle. That being said, I prefer shouts versus symbols and meditations. That is the concept issue i have with symbols. The implementation issue involves having their traits on minor slots in zeal and thus unavoidable if you want to trait into zeal. It also involves the need to avoid wasting trait points on symbols when they are not even available on > 50% of our weapons. Don’t get me wrong, I really don’t want symbols on my 1h sword as I don’t plan on standing in the circle, but they are currently an impenetrable barrier to me traiting further into zeal.

I would also suggest having a trait at the grandmaster level of zeal that gives a significant conversion percentage of power -> hp so guards aren’t locked into honor so much if they choose to trait for pve dps. I think that would be infinitely better than kindled zeal’s current implementation. Something like that may actually break up some of these 30 valor/30 honor builds and provide the build diversity promised in earlier patches.

I am also a strong proponent of the aegis redesign. It really just needs to have a minimum damage threshold before it is consumed. Having aegis consumed by something breathing in your direction immediately before that one shot hit can be irritating.

If you are going to pay specific attention to 1h sword:
1. leap finisher for sword #2
2. remove the target requirement for sword #2
3. sword #1.3 should just be a normal cleave instead of this projectile fiasco
4. complete redesign of sword #3

ODB.6891:

I would also suggest having a trait at the grandmaster level of zeal that gives a significant conversion percentage of power -> hp so guards aren’t locked into honor so much if they choose to trait for pve dps. I think that would be infinitely better than kindled zeal’s current implementation. Something like that may actually break up some of these 30 valor/30 honor builds and provide the build diversity promised in earlier patches.

Ehm, PvE DPS? Are you really talking about that? 30valor/30honor builds don’t have anything to do with DPS and we are locked exactly 5 points into honor for having permanent vigor up. Hence most DPS builds stop at 5 oder 10 points in honor. For PvE, no one would take such a useless zeal grandmaster.

Hello there, I just want to input my ideas into the incoming patch this December.

I have this idea about the “Unscathed Contender” from Virtues tree – I major trait.

This trait adds 20% additional damage if we are under the effects of aegis.

I would just like to suggest that why not try and change that ability? Why not let the 20% additional damage take effect after the aegis has been removed for lets say around 10 seconds.

Lets say just add like a 30 second internal cool down on the said trait so it wouldn’t be OP if others think my idea is sort of OP. But at least it still keeps the namesake of the skill as the guardian has not received any damage because of the removed aegis.

We all know that Unscathed Contender is good for dungeons if you know how to maneuver your character properly but its really not that great in WvW or sPvP as far as I see it.

I hope you guys can add to my idea.

CptAurellian.9537:

ODB.6891:

I would also suggest having a trait at the grandmaster level of zeal that gives a significant conversion percentage of power -> hp so guards aren’t locked into honor so much if they choose to trait for pve dps. I think that would be infinitely better than kindled zeal’s current implementation. Something like that may actually break up some of these 30 valor/30 honor builds and provide the build diversity promised in earlier patches.

Ehm, PvE DPS? Are you really talking about that? 30valor/30honor builds don’t have anything to do with DPS and we are locked exactly 5 points into honor for having permanent vigor up. Hence most DPS builds stop at 5 oder 10 points in honor. For PvE, no one would take such a useless zeal grandmaster.

Way to take stuff out of context, and yes I am talking about pve dps builds. Just from your apparent attitude, you don’t even sound like you are even qualified to talk about pve. Not everyone gets their kicks out of running around killing other players endlessly in a game that doesn’t have perfect or even close to perfect class balance yet. I prefer pve over pvp any day unless I’m playing a game purely designed for player versus player like a pure fighting console game. What you said about 30 valor/30 honor is what’s out of context. I mentioned that because the majority of pve guards are traited that way trying not to die (or trying to “tank” in a game with no tanking)…I did not mention that trying to say that was a dps spec. In fact common sense says it is the opposite of dps, which is why I mentioned breaking that up with some survival alternatives that had higher dps. Considering how many pve guards do trait 30 in valor exclusively for AH, I’d call you out on how useless some guards would feel something that gave a significant vit boost in a power based tree would be. The whole point of putting something like that, that deep in a power tree is to make sure not to overpower builds that are already going for maximum survival, but to provide survival for builds that are going glassy…big picture.

Its amazing how that is all you could retain from my post. If you don’t want a trait like that, then you don’t want it. Some of us do want options. Save the attitude about pve versus pvp. That’s not what this thread is supposed to be about.

Obtena.7952:

Glad to see someone sees the problem with the ‘sword’ solution. For me the problem with the ‘sword solution’ is that it’s already top damage but it’s the least interesting weapon we have access to. Maybe giving it some love that isn’t damage would change that but if it’s not done right, it’s just going to be the high damage, least interesting weapon that gives cool effect X. I think at this stage, we can ensure that cool effect X turns the sword into an interesting weapon by considering the following:

Let’s go over things that make sword a very un-Guardian-like weapon

1. Sword builds don’t have symbol access
2. Sword builds don’t have as direct access to boons
3. Sword builds don’t have support effects (or limited ones)

I don’t see that being addressed in one trait but I haven’t really made a significant suggestion here because I don’t see the aspects that I see lacking in the profession being addressed this round of balancing. From where I sit, I feel there isn’t a fundamental change going on with what’s been proposed by Anet. I’m just hoping whatever is going to happen with this trait, the scope goes beyond ‘sword’.

Hmmm. I had a very interesting idea. New suggestion:

• Critical hits with sword have 33% of chance of casting Symbol of Fury (Duration: 4 sec; Effect: Apply 1 sec of fury per pulse; Cooldown: 20 sec).

And yes, they’re changing what is not crucial now, and not making the crucial changes. They should be more clear of the why.

Baneblade.9267:

I would just like to suggest that why not try and change that ability? Why not let the 20% additional damage take effect after the aegis has been removed for lets say around 10 seconds.

so…Scathed Contender

Mikau.6920:

Obtena.7952:

Glad to see someone sees the problem with the ‘sword’ solution. For me the problem with the ‘sword solution’ is that it’s already top damage but it’s the least interesting weapon we have access to. Maybe giving it some love that isn’t damage would change that but if it’s not done right, it’s just going to be the high damage, least interesting weapon that gives cool effect X. I think at this stage, we can ensure that cool effect X turns the sword into an interesting weapon by considering the following:

Let’s go over things that make sword a very un-Guardian-like weapon

1. Sword builds don’t have symbol access
2. Sword builds don’t have as direct access to boons
3. Sword builds don’t have support effects (or limited ones)

I don’t see that being addressed in one trait but I haven’t really made a significant suggestion here because I don’t see the aspects that I see lacking in the profession being addressed this round of balancing. From where I sit, I feel there isn’t a fundamental change going on with what’s been proposed by Anet. I’m just hoping whatever is going to happen with this trait, the scope goes beyond ‘sword’.

Hmmm. I had a very interesting idea. New suggestion:

• Critical hits with sword have 33% of chance of casting Symbol of Fury (Duration: 4 sec; Effect: Apply 1 sec of fury per pulse; Cooldown: 20 sec).

And yes, they’re changing what is not crucial now, and not making the crucial changes. They should be more clear of the why.

move to strike my previous post. this one is much better even though it would take 75 points to trait symbols fully compared to todays 55 points.

I am all for moving vigorous precision to zeal as a minor master trait to make it less accessible in a line that already has a lot going for it.

Why not move empowering might at the same time and move 10% damage from symbols symbols from zeal to honor and Em to zeal.

Moving vigorous precision will also boost the totally useless trait called elusive power which is effectively eliminated by how vigorous precision works atm.

Kyle.3856:

From the ele forums:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Treborlavok.3504:

just like the guardians 5 trait for vigor on crit… its ok for them to have a 10 second single condition cure at adept…?

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

………. Uh oh….

I thought Vigor was needed for us as we are :
1. Melee
2. have 10k base HP

Compared to warriors who have 8k more hp than us, WE NEED TO DODGE MORE to compensate for the 8k hp difference.

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

I do feel that the sword buff to 10% isn’t needed, however I’m not going to complain. Some thing I suggest is removing the root from Zealot’s Defense with this trait.

rajule.8054:

and please for the love of god reduce the cast time of banish, the wind up on that hit is way too long. its like the easiest ability in the world to avoid .

I used to think this until last night. EB player and I ran into another guardian (sword/focus forget other swap) from DB. I died rather quickly. Another EB (Hammer/GS) player joined the fray after and these two guardians danced for about 5 minutes until they both got tired. Fellow EB player landed banish so many times it wasn’t even funny.

You can land it but has the other guardian said to me in passing it is just a matter of knowing when.

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

You are saying about more damage to sword but we don`t need this
We saying about “mobility” with sword
I want to see that sword skills doesn`t root me – if I use sword #3 I can walk\run etc. If I use sword #2 I want to decide place and way of teleport.
If DEVs team want to burst sword damage then give a condition to sword skills or attacks.
So simple…

ODB.6891:

snip

Quite funny how you interpreted that post. In fact, I don’t give a **** about PvP or WvW, so I’m talking purely from a PvE perspective. And to be honest, I also don’t care for all those guards who run around with the AH crutch. What would be the effect of putting such a trait into 30 zeal? Those who have the slightest idea of what is good or bad in terms of builds will still avoid it and run real DPS builds. Those who want survivability, whether it may be useless or not, will still run AH, since it has more synergies than your trait could ever give. And last but not least, such a 30 zeal build would do nothing better than the existing builds. Compared to AH, it would either give up any support or have no damage/survivability advantage, and compared to DPS builds, it can only give up support without gaining any meaningful damage.

CptAurellian.9537:

ODB.6891:

snip

Quite funny how you interpreted that post. In fact, I don’t give a **** about PvP or WvW, so I’m talking purely from a PvE perspective. And to be honest, I also don’t care for all those guards who run around with the AH crutch. What would be the effect of putting such a trait into 30 zeal? Those who have the slightest idea of what is good or bad in terms of builds will still avoid it and run real DPS builds. Those who want survivability, whether it may be useless or not, will still run AH, since it has more synergies than your trait could ever give. And last but not least, such a 30 zeal build would do nothing better than the existing builds. Compared to AH, it would either give up any support or have no damage/survivability advantage, and compared to DPS builds, it can only give up support without gaining any meaningful damage.

Do you really need survivability in PvE? I mean how hard is it to stack AR, stop, drop, and roll? There are no damage meters in this game let alone inspect, gear score, or anything else that limits you from doing anything and everything.

Survivability? If we look at it objectively, no. At least nothing that isn’t inherent to the class or the result of an easily picked trait like Vigorous Precision. But tell that all those AH guards out there.

Hello !

1)

Zeal V – Shattered Aegis. Damage instead of Burning.

Still pretty meh imo

2)

Zeal VII – Zealous Blade. This trait now scales with Healing power (2%.)

Good one

3)

Radiance V – Searing Flames. Reduced cooldown from 20s to 10s.

That one is probably going to be one of the best changes of the update, pretty good one to improved radiance since it’s pretty bad (without 1H weapon)

4)

Radiance X – Powerful blades. Increased damage from 5% to 10%.

Very good to improve power

5)

Symbol of Swiftness: This skill now applies 4 seconds of swiftness per pulse, rather than 8 seconds if you have no swiftness and 1 second if you have swiftness.

Yay

So to sum up, nothing extraordinary but yeah guardian already is in a good position so it comes as no surprise. Nice little buffs anyway.
Maybe a buff to torch would have been nice (I’m looking at you #5)

CptAurellian.9537:

ODB.6891:

snip

Quite funny how you interpreted that post. In fact, I don’t give a **** about PvP or WvW, so I’m talking purely from a PvE perspective. And to be honest, I also don’t care for all those guards who run around with the AH crutch. What would be the effect of putting such a trait into 30 zeal? Those who have the slightest idea of what is good or bad in terms of builds will still avoid it and run real DPS builds. Those who want survivability, whether it may be useless or not, will still run AH, since it has more synergies than your trait could ever give. And last but not least, such a 30 zeal build would do nothing better than the existing builds. Compared to AH, it would either give up any support or have no damage/survivability advantage, and compared to DPS builds, it can only give up support without gaining any meaningful damage.

What support are you talking about? Valor isn’t a support tree to begin with and the main things you would be giving up by forgoing anything beyond 10 in honor would be selfless daring/empowering might. That’s not a whole lot to give up. The “effect” of it would be to have OPTIONS without sacrificing too much. You are making this huge stink about one suggestion out of several, which would just an OPTION. The advantages of a 30 zeal build would depend on what ends up as available traits in zeal after a redesign…which is one of the main things that players have been asking for about zeal. This isn’t brain surgery, and what I proposed was just an idea…from someone who is not a developer. How about stop nitpicking and propose your own ideas if you think that that one of mine was soooo terrible.

From a PvE perspective? Unfortunately, there is virtually no way to make 30 zeal attractive, as long as Vigorous Precision is not moved to zeal 25 or whatever. Unless ofc you want to put something entirely overpowered there, like a permanent 20% modifier. But that would be even more stupid than Kindled Zeal.

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

Maybe this has been mentioned all ready and I missed it, but you spoke of conditions being weak on the Guardian – why not make the sword damage remain at 5%, but give a condition on-hit / on-crit? Bleed is the typical one, unless you want some thing else so it isn’t too common in traits across all professions (but then again you said not to compare professions). So +5% damage & bleed on-crit?

Or…………think back to how the Paragon functioned. I was a fan of the Paragon, it was quickly one of my favorite professions. I recall reading that the Guardian was a mix of Monk & Paragon, and one aspect of the Paragon has been missing: effects when burned/burning is applied.

Could there be a trait that actually causes a reaction to when burning is applied?

Sword +5% damage – +5/10/15% damage if target is on fire . It’ll probably be 5% because I can see this being OP in some situations that I cannot explain.

But really, I liked the fact that whenever the condition Burning is present, Paragons had skills that were all ready good, but got even better with the presence of Burning! How come that hasn’t been applied to Guardians? It would really make our Burns more about duration than condition damage – which would neglect the need for another condition. True we have a lot of access to burns, but considering the relatively medium/long cooldowns, we could potentially have some good lengthy burst moments, with a decent length of time between said bursts.

Maybe I’m just craving some Paragon mechanics to be carried over to the Guardian, or I want to see the focus of Burning be actually beneficial to the Guardian via triggering additional effects on skills, instead of “Let’s spam some conditions!!”

I always thought Burning was exceptionally dangerous in GW1 – in GW2 I don’t feel Burning is really that scary – hence why I’d like to make the Guardian’s Burning skills revive that fear.

The proposed change to SoS is a clear case of the cure being worse than the disease. A lot Worse. The more I think about what a kick in the teeth to mobility this will be, with the possible exception of WvW (as long as you don’t have to spawn and run back to your zerg) the happier I am that I started a second main Warrior.

As for the only real positive I have seen anyone mention, zerg buffing in WvW, I find if you just pay attention and don’t randomly spam your SoS it is not that difficult to keep it effective.

I wish I could offer a better idea to fix the existing very annoying problem with SoS, but I can’t. The only suggestion I read up thread is 4 sec swiftness on cast and 4 per symbol pulse, but that would probably be OP. Sigh.

Please make Torch 5 cure conditions on caster as well as targets. That would allow for a lot more offensive builds right there.

Zeal 25 is also very terrible, causing cripple would help solve issue #2.

Instead of +10 damage, how about +5 and when an agis shatters it applies chill. Thus helping us with a major issue.

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

As others have stated, this is a lackluster trait because it doesn’t add diversity to a guardian’s build/play. At a passive 5% bonus it would be more fitting (and congruent with trait lines of other professions) as a minor trait. Some drawbacks of the sword include:

• 600 range on skill 2; kinda short for a skill that should offset our lack of mobility.
• 600 range on skill 3; short range seemingly contradicts the projectile blocking.
• Movement cancels skill 3; with a 3 sec channel and short range, one might as well continue to auto attack.
• No finishers; boo =(

That said, a trait may not be the best way to address these drawbacks. If the trait were changed to reduce sword cooldowns by 20% it may only be of limited benefit, given these shortcomings. It would be a pity to rework this trait in such a way that benefits only PvP builds or only PvE builds.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Obtena.7952:

Glad to see someone sees the problem with the ‘sword’ solution. For me the problem with the ‘sword solution’ is that it’s already top damage but it’s the least interesting weapon we have access to. Maybe giving it some love that isn’t damage would change that but if it’s not done right, it’s just going to be the high damage, least interesting weapon that gives cool effect X. I think at this stage, we can ensure that cool effect X turns the sword into an interesting weapon by considering the following:

Let’s go over things that make sword a very un-Guardian-like weapon

1. Sword builds don’t have symbol access
2. Sword builds don’t have as direct access to boons
3. Sword builds don’t have support effects (or limited ones)

I don’t see that being addressed in one trait but I haven’t really made a significant suggestion here because I don’t see the aspects that I see lacking in the profession being addressed this round of balancing. From where I sit, I feel there isn’t a fundamental change going on with what’s been proposed by Anet. I’m just hoping whatever is going to happen with this trait, the scope goes beyond ‘sword’.

It wouldn’t be a bad thing. Swords could be made an unique weapon by having it such that it provides no support, boons, or CCs but in exchange gives the user a huge amount of pure DPS. The Selfish Guardian isn’t quite right in principle but it wouldn’t be a bad option to go to.

Well, you might get your wish because it already does that anyways and Anet was ready to throw an extra ( and IMO, unneeded as well as unimaginative and trivial) 5% damage to it. I know my threads are long but basically …

I would like to see things we want/need apply to more than just one weapon. No one was really complaining that sword didn’t have enough damage … and now they are reconsidering that proposal. Good. Let’s be sure we have their ear, it’s a change we can live with for longer than the meta cycle.

Berner.7289:

JonPeters.5630:

The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.

Thoughts?

Jon

Wow, the only change to Guardians that I actually agreed with, and now they’re reconsidering it….

This is really depressing.

I’m right there with you! If they back out on the 10% damage modifier, I will be really sad.. I was so pumped for it.

If they added chill to our hammer number 2, I’d be in love with anet. That would open the world of WvW builds to a whole new level. As well as bring some more utility to a middle of the road weapon in PVE.

I think an incredible change for Guardians would be to make Virtue IX, absolute resolution baseline for Virtue of Resolves activation. To be able to viably do damage you end up sacrificing nearly all defensive capability. This would greatly help Damage Guardians survivability, since we tend to have low hp as it is, Conditions ruin us and to get decent removal you sacrifice far too much damage.

This also makes more sense for the class in general since we are supposed to be supportive and the last patch was very support oriented. The cool thing is this wont make bunker Guardians any stronger since if your bunker you usually have this trait anyway. It’s a small change that I think would help out Damage oriented Guardians immensely. I think its rather reasonable as well considering the long cooldown on VoR activation.
As far as the sword trait, I cant think of anything elaborate off the top of my head, I am certainly a big fan of getting chill in someway, or how about flashing blade immobilizes the target it strikes for a short duration? Biggest issue of zealots defense is how easily avoidable it is, with a brief immobilize on flashing blade you could be in range to land most of the strikes and depening how long the duration is it would give the opponent a chance to react to the remaining strikes. Think Thief pistol whip, first few strikes will land cuz of the short stun and the rest can be avoided if the player is smart enough to dodge the rest. When an enemy is right in your face Zealot’s defence cant be avoided by just walking away like usual, it would now force the opponent to either eat the remaining damage which certainly hurts, or use a resource(dodge) to escape the rest. perhaps make the trait increase the range on flashing blade as well?

So they don’t want us to get powerful so they make us weaker ( While we don’t want guardians to be as strong offensively as some of the other classes )

In regards to Flashing Blade and Judge’s Intervention:

Here is what I would like to see contrary to what I previously posted.

If I don’t have a target selected, then port me to the farthest direction possible in the direction I’m facing. If some schmuck is behind me trying to kill me, don’t make me auto target that guy and flash 2 steps behind me to him.

If I do have someone targeted, then flash or JI to that target, if said individual is outside my range, then flash me as far as I can in his/her direction. You can leave the damage from swords where it is if you gave us that.

please don’t take vigour from honour 5 away from us….!

Also if you can make Zealot’s Defense (sword number 3) Not root you in place, instead you can move while using this skill it would be a great change!

Hello people!

I must say that guardian is pretty awesome!

what we need to make dps builds ( and condi too) more viable and stronger is giving us more different ways to gain fury like: trait:: [gain fury for certain time when you blind an enemine]; and increasing (not alot like war) base hp, going full zerker build without investing valor points gives 11k ~ 12k hp, that hurts!

A lot of thanks for reading this thread, jon!

Hamish.1384:

In regards to Flashing Blade and Judge’s Intervention:

Here is what I would like to see contrary to what I previously posted.

If I don’t have a target selected, then port me to the farthest direction possible in the direction I’m facing. If some schmuck is behind me trying to kill me, don’t make me auto target that guy and flash 2 steps behind me to him.

If I do have someone targeted, then flash or JI to that target, if said individual is outside my range, then flash me as far as I can in his/her direction. You can leave the damage from swords where it is if you gave us that.

Turn off auto-targeting to not flash behind you. Giving sword #2 the ability to move forward without a target is fine but giving it to JI might be a tad OP, maybe 600-800 range if JI has no target.

giving the ability to blink forward without target to JI isnt OP considering it have 45 sec CD.
what OP is leaping forward even half range of JI + cripple the enemy if any targetted and its only have 8 sec CD

Crapgame.6519:

CptAurellian.9537:

ODB.6891:

snip

Quite funny how you interpreted that post. In fact, I don’t give a **** about PvP or WvW, so I’m talking purely from a PvE perspective. And to be honest, I also don’t care for all those guards who run around with the AH crutch. What would be the effect of putting such a trait into 30 zeal? Those who have the slightest idea of what is good or bad in terms of builds will still avoid it and run real DPS builds. Those who want survivability, whether it may be useless or not, will still run AH, since it has more synergies than your trait could ever give. And last but not least, such a 30 zeal build would do nothing better than the existing builds. Compared to AH, it would either give up any support or have no damage/survivability advantage, and compared to DPS builds, it can only give up support without gaining any meaningful damage.

Do you really need survivability in PvE? I mean how hard is it to stack AR, stop, drop, and roll? There are no damage meters in this game let alone inspect, gear score, or anything else that limits you from doing anything and everything.

More importantly, we’re ALL talking about various PvP balance. Balance between classes in PvP is the only balance that matters. That’s why people want the skills split up, so the PvErs shut the f up about changes that need to happen.

PvE is easy and all classes perform just fine. If you’ve got a server full of people who want to exclude you because of your class, time to find another server. Nothing Anet can do will change that.

Mikau.6920:

(…)
Hmmm. I had a very interesting idea. New suggestion:

• Critical hits with sword have 33% of chance of casting Symbol of Fury (Duration: 4 sec; Effect: Apply 1 sec of fury per pulse; Cooldown: 20 sec).

(…)

Also, they could change Scepter Power from +10% dmg to +5% dmg and 33% of change on crit to cast Symbol of Might: Duration: 4 sec; cast on enemy? Cooldown: 20 sec; Effect: Apply 5 sec of might per pulse.

That two changes (Sword and Scepter) makes all sense, considering that these two weapons are the only ones that dont have any symbols. With this they will be more supportive and will make more sense to trait them and add more synergy with symbol traits.

Redscope.6215:

Crapgame.6519:

CptAurellian.9537:

ODB.6891:

snip

Quite funny how you interpreted that post. In fact, I don’t give a **** about PvP or WvW, so I’m talking purely from a PvE perspective. And to be honest, I also don’t care for all those guards who run around with the AH crutch. What would be the effect of putting such a trait into 30 zeal? Those who have the slightest idea of what is good or bad in terms of builds will still avoid it and run real DPS builds. Those who want survivability, whether it may be useless or not, will still run AH, since it has more synergies than your trait could ever give. And last but not least, such a 30 zeal build would do nothing better than the existing builds. Compared to AH, it would either give up any support or have no damage/survivability advantage, and compared to DPS builds, it can only give up support without gaining any meaningful damage.

Do you really need survivability in PvE? I mean how hard is it to stack AR, stop, drop, and roll? There are no damage meters in this game let alone inspect, gear score, or anything else that limits you from doing anything and everything.

More importantly, we’re ALL talking about various PvP balance. Balance between classes in PvP is the only balance that matters. That’s why people want the skills split up, so the PvErs shut the f up about changes that need to happen.

PvE is easy and all classes perform just fine. If you’ve got a server full of people who want to exclude you because of your class, time to find another server. Nothing Anet can do will change that.

Same could be said to you and PvP, sir. PvE is a big part of this game, and many players like more than one aspect of what the game has to offer.

Sigh.. Hey Jon

Sword really needs one thing and that is a bit of CC on flashing blade. Chill, Immobilize, cripple. The main issue with sword is not the DPS it is simply the fact that the mobile weapon is terrible at sticking to moving targets. If you truly honestly want to help without going overboard do us all a favor and give a bit of soft CC to the weapon. There are lots of “big” ideas floating around but big changes never work out well. This is a simple issue imho. Sword lacks “sticking” capability and that is about it. In PvE it is perfectly fine and has been for a long time now.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Same could be said to you and PvP, sir. PvE is a big part of this game, and many players like more than one aspect of what the game has to offer.

That is true. However, PvE is scripted and 9 out of 10 times it comes down to learning the encounter and knowing when to use your cool downs or dodge. More often than not you can run full DPS stat oriented gear and live.

This is not the case with either form of PvP in the game which are two of the other triads of play this game offers. Furthermore, PvE drives more trait and skill balance because they can become too over powered or lopsided in the other two formats of play.

I don’t think either side should dictate nor do I know what the population numbers reflect. Just be aware, which I’m sure you are, there are 3 types of game play of which 2 relate to PvP.