K, you hate what they do to the class … let’s not cloud our objective judgement with emotions here. A few skills that were OP’ed were acknowledged and fixed. Yup, it took a few years … again, that’s not unique to GW2. I’ve played lots of MMO’s where specific broken skills were allowed to persist for years.
Oh that’s funny. And just because other MMO’s share a problem doesn’t excuse or justify the failings of this game.
K, you hate what they do to the class … let’s not cloud our objective judgement with emotions here. A few skills that were OP’ed were acknowledged and fixed. Yup, it took a few years … again, that’s not unique to GW2. I’ve played lots of MMO’s where specific broken skills were allowed to persist for years.
It is not even a matter of emotions… it is not logical how they are balancing the game.
Balance the game to create broken builds(forcing players to play it do being overbuffed compared with no meta class or build) and limiting class builds to 1, when they are adding more traits, and those traits end not being used due limited and obsolute is a wrong concept how to make a game, and at the end it is lost revenew and time is money.
Gw2 is already a very emtpy game, if they limit the class design for what they think the class needs to be played game will be a mess, classes ended to do more or much less from it concept, class looses the objective, and game looses objectives and becomes a random adition of content and players loose interest, game looses money at the end, time was spent doing things the will not work after some time or will be removed.
Theres is a ton of visible bad ideas on this game and concepts…
(edited by Aeolus.3615)
K, you hate what they do to the class … let’s not cloud our objective judgement with emotions here. A few skills that were OP’ed were acknowledged and fixed. Yup, it took a few years … again, that’s not unique to GW2. I’ve played lots of MMO’s where specific broken skills were allowed to persist for years.
Oh that’s funny. And just because other MMO’s share a problem doesn’t excuse or justify the failings of this game.
You see, that’s what actually makes it not a problem. You’re assuming that devs in GW2 and other games are scrambling hard to try to balance all the classes against each other so they are all ‘equivalent’ and they fail at doing so. It’s more like … they don’t and recognize it’s a fools errand to do so. Again … have yet to play, see or hear any MMO accomplish this or make it some penultimate goal. Between class balance is simply not a goal.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
You see, that’s what actually makes it not a problem. You’re assuming that devs in GW2 and other games are scrambling hard to try to balance all the classes against each other so they are all ‘equivalent’ and they fail at doing so. It’s more like … they don’t and recognize it’s a fools errand to do so. Again … have yet to play, see or hear any MMO accomplish this or make it some penultimate goal. Between class balance is simply not a goal.
I’ve never met someone so aggressively against learning. Go back to the older balance threads I talked to you in and re-read them, or I’ll be forced to start quoting them here. Alternatively, read any of the PvP-based patch notes about how they nerf/buff classes in accordance with perceived PvP performance, which is a direct translation of between class balance. If they aren’t balancing against other classes they aren’t balancing. If that were the case they might as well make Guardian staff autos do 2k base damage +1.5x every stat we have.
Gw2 is already a very emtpy game
[Citation Needed]
You see, that’s what actually makes it not a problem. You’re assuming that devs in GW2 and other games are scrambling hard to try to balance all the classes against each other so they are all ‘equivalent’ and they fail at doing so. It’s more like … they don’t and recognize it’s a fools errand to do so. Again … have yet to play, see or hear any MMO accomplish this or make it some penultimate goal. Between class balance is simply not a goal.
I’ve never met someone so aggressively against learning. Go back to the older balance threads I talked to you in and re-read them, or I’ll be forced to start quoting them here. Alternatively, read any of the PvP-based patch notes about how they nerf/buff classes in accordance with perceived PvP performance, which is a direct translation of between class balance. If they aren’t balancing against other classes they aren’t balancing. If that were the case they might as well make Guardian staff autos do 2k base damage +1.5x every stat we have.
Neither have I. I’ve never read a balance thread where a dev said “Oh, we are changing this because this other class does this” or “This class is the worst performing so here you go”.
Obtena.7952 i guess that is not the balance that players are talking??
One of the issues that every one talks is the huge performance gap on playing how Anet want and the classes Anet want players to play, and the other is playing with what the classes offers wide.
What can be good on adding traits to classes if they become broken as hell or completelly useless?
Balance based on looking good or how flashy a class is?
Balance based on how a dev feel a class should be played with a strong and easy gimmick, wich results on everything that class has doesnt matter anymore, besides a gimmick skill rotation?
Nothing comes good from this… Gw2 is not LoL or the other that comes form the moded WC3 that i cant remmember the name, it is easy to spot how Anet want mobas players on their game, but with the actuall skill design it ends to avoid them only the very bad players comes to see if they can be better here with the Anet gimmicks.
Very wrong things are happening on this game…. Anet even created easy win gimmick on WvW.. it ended broken as hell, players raged, same goes wiht classes, making stuff just for ESL propaganda while gameplay is broken oustide Anet desirable classes/ builds, it is the most of the ilogical ways to make a game grow…..
Reason the only viable medi trappers build only kill raly bot builds on the wrong hands :P
(edited by Aeolus.3615)
Anet does not want players playing specific classes, builds, etc… That whole mindset and any arguments or thinking it’s based on makes no sense. Honestly, there is no motivation for Anet to boost or reduce the number of players using any particular class in this game; there is no trinity.
I don’t see why people don’t get it. The fact that classes are not equivalent to each other in performance is either:
1. Anet doesn’t try to do it
2. It’s so hard to do, they can’t
Either way, it’s not going to happen. Not because Anet is terrible or anything like that … because it’s actually no point in doing so based on decades of seeing of MMO’s not have it for the same two reasons above. it’s simply an expectation imposed by players that don’t want to play below-performance classes. Problem with this is that there is ALWAYS below-performance classes and SOMEONE plays them. It’s just the nature of multiclass MMO.
Class balance, as you guys are thinking it should be, simply does not exist in MMO gaming.
Anet does not want players playing specific classes, builds, etc… That whole mindset and any arguments or thinking it’s based on makes no sense. Honestly, there is no motivation for Anet to boost or reduce the number of players using any particular class in this game; there is no trinity.
(…)
Metas change, that is what it is, whitout brand it as meta or o/w excuses or branding it with another name… classes go down and uprise with gimmick builds.
And, so if one class being lackluster is good? While keep improveing other classes that are already good, sometimes buffing what is really strong and sometimes nerfing the wrong place, or overnerfing so player start thinking of playing another gimmick ?
Cm’on it is not hard to see…. and its not even matter of equivalence and performance, performance is very subjective word when carried to class balance….
What Anet is doing wrong is disabling builds in exchange of anothers it is not healthy for the game… while that hurts the entire game, the game dont offer much, and remove allot of those builds game gets even emptier no matter what GW2 lacks ALOT.
Players need more choices , not more gimmicks, it is not hard to understand that underperformed classes always existed, some players just want the below performance build to work, cause in most cases the class dont even work….cause wkittenered due other classes being boosted in several ways, it end being the paper of every scizor and the rock of every paper and never on the winning side, sometimes weapon choice is suficient to be lackluster in every aspect due how poorly class works.
And most of the situations is just a very small change to make it work …
SW still useless, consecrations need s little overhoul like sanctuary, shouts imo are ok, some mace and shield traits, and sword need a litle love etc, like i said it is the small changes that make class playable while being the underperformed class or with a very situational build, but is still playable, atm is happening the reverse of that.
(edited by Aeolus.3615)
Neither have I. I’ve never read a balance thread where a dev said “Oh, we are changing this because this other class does this” or “This class is the worst performing so here you go”.
Guardian
In keeping with the general theme of improving less used options, we’ve been updating both traits and abilities to be more useful and to have a meaningful impact when you equip them. The dragonhunter elite specialization has proven to have a very solid impact in many areas of the game, but they’ve been a tad too effective in the areas of burst and disruption, and we’ll be looking to make slight adjustments in those areas.RIP Guardians? Taking away what little they had left.
From “Profession Balance Goals Released-Guardian” from a few months ago. Read the “too effective” part and tell me what it means or refers to.
Riddle me this Socrates: if they don’t balance by performance, why do devs change anything at all? Why don’t they just plop things down and leave them from the moment of creation?
I wont argue that all MMO’s have balance problems for PVP, its obvious that they do.
The thing is there is just so much that is bad with the guardian & so many little things that they could do (even ignoring all the big things) that would stand to bring the class up to par.
The fact that they just ignore so many broken or poorly designed things that could be fixed in rather simple means i just a shame on them as a company.
To be fair, guardian isn’t unuseable in pvp. It’s just not meta enough to be pro league material. You can still spec for full traps or meditrapper and still do pretty well. The precise problem the DH spec has is that two of the meta classes are counters to DH: support tempest and power rev. The on point pressure a full trapper can put out is still devastating and the meditrapper is a very good bruiser. What the class really needs is a viable bunker spec to be able to play around the revs and eles.
Neither have I. I’ve never read a balance thread where a dev said “Oh, we are changing this because this other class does this” or “This class is the worst performing so here you go”.
Guardian
In keeping with the general theme of improving less used options, we’ve been updating both traits and abilities to be more useful and to have a meaningful impact when you equip them. The dragonhunter elite specialization has proven to have a very solid impact in many areas of the game, but they’ve been a tad too effective in the areas of burst and disruption, and we’ll be looking to make slight adjustments in those areas.RIP Guardians? Taking away what little they had left.
From “Profession Balance Goals Released-Guardian” from a few months ago. Read the “too effective” part and tell me what it means or refers to.
Riddle me this Socrates: if they don’t balance by performance, why do devs change anything at all? Why don’t they just plop things down and leave them from the moment of creation?
I don’t see any references there to balance W.R.T. other classes … unless of course ‘burst’ and ‘disruption’ are code names for classes that I’m not familiar with.
If you’re going to threaten me with quotes from Devs to prove me wrong about the existence of between-class balancing goals, efforts, statements, you might want to find ones that are relevant.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
DH was nerfed based on WvW player complaints, not because it was op vs any single or multi class comp… LB#2 and LB#5 were two items that didn’t need a nerf based on performance.
Same goes for Turret Engi, too effective for how easy it was. Other classes could beat it, especially in a team fight but for a bunker it excelled & subpar players complained.
I think it’s fair to say you are both right but also partially wrong. They balance between other classes while also trying to please the casual player base.
Common practice to nerf abilities based on the general consensus of bad players. They make up this game so they will cater to them.
Neither have I. I’ve never read a balance thread where a dev said “Oh, we are changing this because this other class does this” or “This class is the worst performing so here you go”.
Guardian
In keeping with the general theme of improving less used options, we’ve been updating both traits and abilities to be more useful and to have a meaningful impact when you equip them. The dragonhunter elite specialization has proven to have a very solid impact in many areas of the game, but they’ve been a tad too effective in the areas of burst and disruption, and we’ll be looking to make slight adjustments in those areas.RIP Guardians? Taking away what little they had left.
From “Profession Balance Goals Released-Guardian” from a few months ago. Read the “too effective” part and tell me what it means or refers to.
Riddle me this Socrates: if they don’t balance by performance, why do devs change anything at all? Why don’t they just plop things down and leave them from the moment of creation?I don’t see any references there to balance W.R.T. other classes … unless of course ‘burst’ and ‘disruption’ are code names for classes that I’m not familiar with.
If you’re going to threaten me with quotes from Devs to prove me wrong about the existence of between-class balancing goals, efforts, statements, you might want to find ones that are relevant.
Threaten you? Please. You said you haven’t read any, and I provided. I provided one that you commented on. That quotation is perfectly relevant, but since you continue to argue by closing your eyes and plugging your ears I’ll indulge you.
From the patch notes, April 19th 2016:
“Damage Changes
These damage modifiers were reduced, as they applied too much spike damage to targets at range and didn’t allow for enough counterplay. We do want to keep ranged combat viable in WvW scenarios, but we don’t want it to be the best option in open-field combat. As with the other changes, we’ll continue to watch and make adjustments where it’s deemed necessary.
True Shot: The damage of this skill has been reduced by 20%.
Gun Flame: The physical damage of this primal burst has been reduced by 20%. Fixed an issue that allowed this burst to hit enemies twice. This burst no longer pierces but still delivers the area-of-effect attack. Fixed a bug that caused the tool tip to show a decrease in damage when the Burst Mastery trait was in use."
“Engineer
Our goal for this quarter has been to reduce a bit of the scrapper’s survivability while updating the base engineer with multiple weapon and utility quality-of-life changes….”
“Guardian
A large portion of the changes occurring for the guardian are aimed toward reducing the dragonhunter’s group controlling and killing capacity in WvW while toning down its ranged spike damage capability prevalent in other areas….”
“Necromancer
Necromancers have been reaping their way across the game, far and wide. It’s been a glorious sight. With that being said, there are a few areas that we feel need to be balanced, specifically chill application and survivability. In this update we’ll be reducing the overall duration of chill that the necromancer can output by reducing it from their base abilities. Players will also see a reduction in the uptime of Infusing Terror, though the functionality will remain the same…..”
“Revenant
This quarter’s balance changes are focused…while slightly lowering the defensive capabilities of the Shiro legend. Legendary Assassin Stance is expected to be offensive and elusive but was too survivable overall….”
“Thief
…We’ll continue to monitor the effectiveness of Lead Attacks and adjust it accordingly as needed….”
“Warrior
We’re generally happy with the offense and damage potential of the warrior, but survivability and durability in PvP have been observed to be lacking, even when defensive measures are taken. We’re looking to boost defense in areas where the warrior specializes in it. Stability-granting utilities have been refocused and reworked with the new stability cooldown specifically in mind, and the Defense line has gained significant increases. Within this line, Adrenal Health has been transformed from an adrenaline-holding minor trait into one that grants a much stronger healing effect when landing burst abilities….”
The important part were my questions. Fine, claim the citations prove nothing because they do not explicitly state that the developers are making these changes because the class is “strong” or “weak” in those areas. Go ahead and tell me how the wording does not indicate anything. But if you cannot even try to answer my questions then why should I bother looking at anything you write? And why should I let anyone uninitiated be baited into believing you?
What does “too effective” mean? What is the basis for comparison? What is the basis for too anything? What is the basis for comparison in all these changes if not to other classes? If they don’t try to balance classes, why do they change anything at all?
Don’t try to weasel your way out of this. So far you have shown yourself to be completely without reason, trying to ignore points or invalidate them with incorrect assertions. I enjoy wasting time on the forums but your closed-mindedness is decidedly against the purpose of a forum of open discussion, and you are beginning to bore me.
You provided nothing what I’ve asked you to show me. None of what you have posted there contains balance-related statements that demonstrate between-class balancing efforts that originates from a Dev. There is no weaseling here .. I’m asserting that devs don’t balance a class based on what others classes do because of what I see happening in the game, namely the large disparity between class performance. I’m also asserting this isn’t due to incompetence or lack of will to try, but the massive complexity of attempting to do so and accomplishing little.
Despite this strong evidence, you decided to challenge that assertion with random statements about how devs are assessing individual class performances … which, if anything, supports my own hypothesis there is no between-class balancing going on. Only in the most indirect fashion can anyone claim there is between-class balancing because there are overall ranges for damage or healing, etc… but that’s never been a concentrated efforts by devs to make SPECIFIC between-class balance efforts.
Anything else?
(edited by Obtena.7952)
You provided nothing what I’ve asked you to show me. None of what you have posted there contains balance-related statements that demonstrate between-class balancing efforts that originates from a Dev. There is no weaseling here .. I’m asserting that devs don’t balance a class based on what others classes do because of what I see happening in the game, namely the large disparity between class performance. I’m also asserting this isn’t due to incompetence or lack of will to try, but the massive complexity of attempting to do so and accomplishing little.
Despite this strong evidence, you decided to challenge that assertion with random statements about how devs are assessing individual class performances … which, if anything, supports my own hypothesis there is no between-class balancing going on. Only in the most indirect fashion can anyone claim there is between-class balancing because there are overall ranges for damage or healing, etc… but that’s never been a concentrated efforts by devs to make SPECIFIC between-class balance efforts.
Anything else?
Glad to see you’re still editing your posts not five minutes after making them. Nice change by removing the “one of us is bored” thing.
You haven’t asked me to show you anything. And from a previous post, as you say yourself:
I don’t need evidence. I just read words….
You do not ask questions. You just kinda put a bunch of thoughts in the open and claim they’re correct.
You have still answered none of my questions; your weaseling continues. I say they all relate each class to the other eight. Your refutation is: “no they don’t”. I say the chasm between best and worst classes is because the devs are working to abate it but struggling; you say, “no it isn’t”. I ask for further evidence and you give none. You present arguments I’ve already discussed:
Just another example of why you don’t understand why this change is being made. You can cite all the examples of DH getting ROFLstomped you like; it doesn’t really matter because that’s not why Anet is changing stuff. Anet has no aspirations to see DH hit some specific level of PVP performance with respect to other professions. You’re expectations don’t align with theirs.
What do you mean by that? Balance doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The only way DH can be too strong in terms of burst/disruption is in comparison to the other builds/classes available. So any changes they make are by comparison, and are about making the classes hit a specific level of performance. And most of their performance balance is based around PvP.
It is clear there is nothing to be gained in talking with you; you do not present critical thought.
Edit-formatting :^)
(edited by King Cephalopod.7942)
It’s an easy refutation to make; none of those statements say “We are totally nerfing/buffing class A because class B is this.” In fact, I’ve seen it in no MMO ever. It’s simply not done.
In addition, as long as you can’t provide any statements that show it’s the devs intentions to balance classes according to what other classes do, I can’t really dispute that. It speaks for itself.
Seems to me you haven’t objectively thought about how balance can happen within a class and it’s own skills to align with how the devs want the class to play and the parameters of the game. I can’t really help you with that, other than to say every MMO works this way. Just have to look.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Don’t argue with Obtena, just ignore him, hes flaming you.
Guardian is now in the end of food chain but hoping some buffs may come in 2 months.
PvE raid meta: Chono, Druid, tons of Tempest
PvP meta: Chrono, Druid, Tempest, Daredevil, Berserk
The only gamemode in which Guardian/DH has relevance is in raid WvW as AoE stability provider, but that build can be killed by any roaming build of any class if get catched alone.
Don’t argue with Obtena, just ignore him, hes flaming you.
Guardian is now in the end of food chain but hoping some buffs may come in 2 months.
Hardly .. if he didn’t want to have a discussion with me, he wouldn’t have replied to my comments in the first place.
Don’t argue with Obtena, just ignore him, hes flaming you.
Guardian is now in the end of food chain but hoping some buffs may come in 2 months.
I am/was aware. It was fun for a while but it’s gotten old.
Obtena must belong to the balance team, how much broke design you wish to enforce here?
Could not resit to joke about it, sorry.
>:}
I am a devoted righteousfag that always enjoys playing paladin type of classes.
My resolve was broken as I’ve seen that I do not bring much to my team by playing my own build (which was pretty neat few months back).
I feel like I am forced to play something better in order to gain in pvp and not being an unnecessary weight for my premades.
I always loved and will love those kind of professions, but how should we succeed?
What should be done and what is wrong with Guardian that we are being outplayed so hard?
Calm down 4chan
Obtena must belong to the balance team, how much broke design you wish to enforce here?
Could not resit to joke about it, sorry.
>:}
That’s OK … I’m not enforcing any broken designs. I’m not talking about whether they are broken or not.
Why does everyone read between the lines when someone posts? I mean seriously. Guardians didn’t get any worth while fixes or adjustments nor did they get neutered say like the Druid. I mean if you want attention I’m sure the dev’s can whack a trait or two like they did on the Ranger, you up for that?
Sure, they didn’t balance some of the more obvious offenders. But they did some and left the Guardian alone. Right or wrong, those are the cards dealt within the patch. If you are tired of being dealt kitten then only you can decide when to fold.
Personally I’d love some positive changes but this isn’t just about the Guardian if truth be told. It is more about the wonky @ss expansion pack and balance issues it caused. Rushed to market is an understatement.
But to each his/her own.
Sure, make Guardian/DH as viable as Druid and I’ll let the devs wack me all day long.
You’re seriously complaining about a 8.5 class being nerfed to 8.0 while telling the 4.0 class to be happy because they aren’t 3.9 now?
He’s not saying to be happy about it, but he’s not saying you should pout and act out every time either. Basically, I think the underlying message here is to be a little more mature about it. I know some people are convinced that doing this gets them what they want … I can assure you that devs do not respond to that well.
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