Guild Wars 2

Hey.
So this issue has been bugging me for a while, and i wanted to see if i’m alone in this or not.
So i have a lvl 80 Guardian, geared/traited for Power, Toughness and Vitality. Its done to be a tankish thing, and generally it works nice, thanks to my high defense stat. But when i go vs condition damage dealers my character tends to drop like a fly.
The reason for this is that Guardians are hard-coded to be one of the classes with the lowest health (which for a melee, heavy armor wearing defensive class is nothing but odd). So i compared notes with some guildmates and specially my brother (who has a lvl 80 Crit warrior), i came up with the sad conclusion that even though i have a fair ammount of vitality more than my brother (about 200 or so) he still outmatches my HP by something like 3000HP. This is true for many other characters and classes.
So i wanna know, does this bother anyone else?

like how much vitality you have.

guardian is the most tanking class in the game. warrior doesnt even come close, no matter what he is squishy

and btw crit warriors aka zerkers are about 18.5k health. so he has 3k more than you, are you saying you are at the ball of 15k HP?

Not at all. Guardians have so many defensive abilities we need a weakness. Ours is conditions. Which in all honesty is fairly easy to purge. When i have warriors and other classes asking how im not dieing as i butt heads with champions that take out every thing around me obviously we got something going for us.

I think guardians could use a little love in the vitality department. Not a lot but some, yes.

When you have 33% damage reduction more or less permanently, you don’t really need the health pool that a warrior has.

It’s funny how many uninformed responses this thread already has.

“guardian is the most tanking class in the game. warrior doesnt even come close, no matter what he is squishy”

No, Guardian is definitely not. Warriors can take MUCH more abuse then a Guardian, although Guardians can help their team take abuse. Warriors have a 5 second block-all on their shield, endure pain, etc etc… Guardians have absolutely nothing like this (Renewed Focus doesn’t count, you end up standing still and can’t act) not even taking into account things like Guard’s bad mobility.

“When you have 33% damage reduction more or less permanently, you don’t really need the health pool that a warrior has.”

In absolutely NO circumstance except for running a 2h hammer in PVE does a Guardian have 100% protection boon uptime. You MIGHT be able to achieve this running a shield(terrible offhand weapon) + Saveyourselves+Holdtheline (IF you are specced for BOON duration), otherwise you’re never getting anything close to100% protection uptime.

I’m not saying Guardians even NEED a health increase(I would MUCH RATHER have our broken weapons looked at (Shield, Scepter, Staff)), and I play one, but I just had to set people straight.

We can keep up protection 100% of the time, and have tons of condition removal at our disposal. The options are there, you just haven’t utilized them all.

hilarious responses(besides george).

My lvl 80 full tank spec Guardian has 30 points in the vit trait and some vit from my gear and yes it only reaches 15,4k hp

A lvl 80 war with no points added in vit sits at like 18k+ hp

The guardian hp is pretty effective, as in guardian can have more long term sustain, but when it comes down to taking burst damage, a full tank warrior with their 28k+ hp and longer invincibility/block times just outperforms guardian by miles

In fact I think that the only class with less hp than guardian is probably the thief

With my level 80 guardian I held off the champ risen abom quite easily even without the 33% damage reduction 100% uptime. The only times that i got hit was when my evade bugged out and only i guess you could say half evaded. I only have 11k health with 0 points in the vit tree and build as power crit toughness until i can get more gear.

It was actually pretty easy swapping between my sword / shield set and my greatsword using blinds properly using my block heal meditations to heal and such when my heal was on cd and the max damage i took was around 4.5kish damage. It was quite fun, i think i could of done the same on a warrior as long as you can learn the boss, and its great when a melee is able to avoid attacks because the other melee dont have to move and can go to town. If a ranged is kiting and no one is slowing the abom its a pain and when someone says “you cant slow it” slap them in the face and tell them to use their slows, unstoppable means you cant root them, stop them, it doesnt say anything about slows.

shelter 2second block direct heal great in pvp when being focused on

zeal trait, Zealous Blade greatsword attacks heal great for hitting lots of grouped up mobs you heal for eac person you hit

Altruistic Healing you get healed for every boon you place on an ally includes yourself great when around groups of allies 10 allies and one boon can mean up to 880 hp to you depending on your healing stat. great when supporting clumped up groups of allies. all skills and symbols that provide boons like mace symbol of faith and greatsword symbols that give boons work with this trait. Empowering might when you crit you boon you and alies also effects this trait.

Detonate staff and shield for heals you have and many more. you do not need more vitality you just need to build for it.

The problem is that toughness is the guardian’s main gig, and it is the weakest main stat in terms of effectiveness (except for PvE mobs). You can spec for it in PvP but you won’t really be able to capitalize on it like all other classes can on their max trait, because it won’t help you spike, dps, run solo, or survive on cooldown. What it will do is let you enter danger zones for a few seconds to help party members. If you’re doing anything else you have to be aware that all other classes can do it better.

I have a Guardian at 80 and currently working on a Warrior which is at 40 and for PvP at least I find my warrior to be more survivable ( as I cant speak fully for my warrior as its only 40 ). Dont get me wrong I feel the guardian has plenty of stalling tactics with blocks and the Constant protection when running a hammer can be nice but the crap damage of the hammer I feel lets it down also considering the speed of the final swing to set it up.

I also Agree with George that our weapons need looking at.

As for my warrior in PvP is sitting nice with 31k + hp 1hnd axe and shield and 1hnd axe does nice damage, im no 2hnd spam warrior but I get the job done. I also have healing shouts to support myself and allies and my shield block reflect projectiles . I ll run with hammer off hand for control or rifle for ranged ( thinking of trying a full hammer build for war aswell )

shelter 2second block direct heal great in pvp when being focused on
zeal trait, Zealous Blade greatsword attacks heal great for hitting lots of grouped up mobs you heal for eac person you hit
Altruistic Healing you get healed for every boon you place on an ally includes yourself great when around groups of allies 10 allies and one boon can mean up to 880 hp to you depending on your healing stat. great when supporting clumped up groups of allies. all skills and symbols that provide boons like mace symbol of faith and greatsword symbols that give boons work with this trait. Empowering might when you crit you boon you and alies also effects this trait.
Detonate staff and shield for heals you have and many more. you do not need more vitality you just need to build for it.

Altruistic Healing is hilarious with a staff in dungeon groups.

Zealous Blade is disappointing, however.

It all depends on your build though. All in all I don’t feel shorted on heals and survivability skills that make up for our low HP, though I’m usually traited for support and generally stay out of melee range except to drop a bubble or wall.

This is assuming PvP or Dungeon groups though. Solo PvE, just grab a greatsword and nothing else really matters.

Our actual health pool is on the low side. Our effective health is more than sufficient.

Hey I’m running around in 13k HP but the 3,300 armor definately helps out c: Kinda childish DPS but with that toughness I can go into the heart of the combat use skill #4 on the staff and leave with a wall of reflection and AoE condition removal from allies, after that it’s like watch my team devastating theirs, and if more power is needed I switch to tome of wrath to give frenzy twice, now THAT is fun to watch :P

@kaffaljidhma
where have you gotten the notion that toughness is a “the weakest stat”. its one of the few that hasnt got diminishing returns and actually gets relative better, in term of return on investment, the more you invest. Stacking toughness with signet of judgement and purity and 30s protection in a row makes you close to immortal if you have rune of the soldier and 2 shouts to back it up with.

All this possible with over 50% crit, 55% critdamage and 2600-3500 in attack.

Toughness is definitely great in pvp as long as you have enough conditionremovers so your relaively low healthpool isnt stacked with conditions.

Ontopic:
Guardians has one of the largest, effective, healthpools in the game and we can do kittenloads of damage while we have it.

ThePropagation.3692:

the crap damage of the hammer

Considering it has the highest burst of all our weapons and the one thats hardest to avodi i feel that you need to take a deeper look into the hammer and its uses.

If this is you feeling then i fully understand why you feel more survivability on your warrior.

Aww jeez, not this kitten again..

If you’re dying to conditions, use your removals more smartly. Don’t give me “THEY APPLY FASTER THAN I CAN REMOVE QQ” of course, how else would you expect condition specs to kill anything?

However if you do time your removals right, (usually 7-9 stacks of bleed), you completely break their momentum in damage and they have to start ramping up again.

Guardians may not have the highest passive stat bonuses in the health department, but if you’re “dying like a fly” in Soldier’s gear, you’re not playing the Guardian to its full potential and perhaps should reevaluate skill/trait choices along with your playstyle. I mean, the class is among the top of Bunker specs with Eles and what not right now. Do you hear complaints about bunker warriors? Zilch, nada.

@ at Brutaly
I do understand that the damage coming from the Hammer # 2 ability is good and the range makes it hard to escape from, But I seem to spend most of my time trying to set up the Hammer #1 protection field for the protection and retaliation and that first combo set I feel lacks. Don’t get me wrong I love the hammer and I want to make it work but so far I’m having a hard time finding a build that works for me and so far the biggest crit I’ve seen from that #2 ability is about 2k but I don’t spend to much time looking at the numbers during a fight. When even with my tankish build on my Warrior my auto attack combo can reach crits of 8oo to 1000 dmg and then the burst of Eviscerate it allows me to still hold my own while surviving longer.

I could be missing something and I’m still playing with my guardian to try and find a build that I can work with.

(also there is nothing as satisfying as launching someone over a ledge with the hammer #4)

@George: I’m not specced for full protection duration anymore, but I used to be. And no, I didn’t use a hammer. It can be done. When the average enemy has a swing time close to 3 seconds, you can afford to have gaps. Coupled with blocks, blinds, dodges, and other evasive capabilities, the uptime is effectively 100%.

Consider how imbalanced would it be to have superior innate defensive capabilities that make you inherently a tank even when you’re specced full damage. The abilities are available as a choice. If you want to be a tank, you have to take the traits and skills that make you one.

@ThePropagation

The third step of the chain is slow and there is a reason for that, it hits for about 75% of the damage from mighty blow, symboldamage included.

If you just hit for 2k with MB then something is wrong, i hit for that with the third stepof the chain in a pure supportbuild with over1k healing power and pre/vit/heal gear.

With berserkergear my record is a 6.8k hit on a warrior in spvp, with a 0/5/30/30/5 build and its about 5.5k in wvw, so no, mighty blow or guardians isnt a low dps class.

I think your last post actually shows why people should post less and read/play more, not directed towards you in person but to the community in general.

There are very few things in the guardian thats actually broken, our dps, health pool or our ability to remove conditions isnt broken, its definitely there and people just need to understand how to exploit it.

In short, there isnt anything weak or underpowered with a guardian, its just not as straightforward as in most other classes.

If conditions are your issue, use the signet as your heal, use shouts with Pure of Voice and Soldier Runes, and trait to drop another condition every 10 seconds. Guardians have the lowest tier of hitpoints, but have tons of condition removal to make up for it.

For condition removal, I feel pigeon-holed into shouts and Runes of the Soldier with Signet of Resolve if I try and go for an AH build. Ontop of that, if I go with Runes of the Soldier, my boon duration suffers. Shouts are mostly the only way we can buff allies and take advantage of AH. Do we get credit if allies complete combo finishers from combo fields towards AH through consecration? I guess my problem is, I can’t find a way to maintain my survivability without AH. Meditations can heal but only for burst heals and they are only around 1k.

I kind of think they should change some abilities around with the shield and focus. I think it would feel more shield like if you could use your shield to block instead of knockback. Does it NEED to happen, no. In pve against champs i think it should since knockbacks dont work on them and most champs are melee, i could just go to the focus but i hate the look with a passion. Either way though you get 33% damage reduction from either weapon, and you get a block that blocks 3 attacks or one that absorbs projectiles.

With the hammer #2 you can possibly do more damage than the gs number 2 but if all your seeing is 2k crits and want damage your built wrong, ive gotten around 4-5k crits and about the same with the Greatsword #2 but the hammer number 2 is on a shorter cd. It lacks mobility though but ive done some pretty good damage with it with a sword and shield for mobility and more knockback. I dont find myself using knockbacks that much in pve so i think i might try to get rid of my shield which i love to use a focus.

ReaverKane.7598:

Hey.
So this issue has been bugging me for a while, and i wanted to see if i’m alone in this or not.
So i have a lvl 80 Guardian, geared/traited for Power, Toughness and Vitality. Its done to be a tankish thing, and generally it works nice, thanks to my high defense stat. But when i go vs condition damage dealers my character tends to drop like a fly.
The reason for this is that Guardians are hard-coded to be one of the classes with the lowest health (which for a melee, heavy armor wearing defensive class is nothing but odd). So i compared notes with some guildmates and specially my brother (who has a lvl 80 Crit warrior), i came up with the sad conclusion that even though i have a fair ammount of vitality more than my brother (about 200 or so) he still outmatches my HP by something like 3000HP. This is true for many other characters and classes.
So i wanna know, does this bother anyone else?

Logged about 400 hours on my Guardian now and this does not bother me at all.

I do run a defensive build, and I am extremely tough. In PVE it is extremely rare that I get downed.

In WvWvW I have not been in a 1v1 where I have died.

If we had the same health pool as warriors we would be extremely over powered. We simply do not need any more health as we have so many defensive abilities to choice from. If you are having problems with your survivability I would question your build/setup or skill.

IMO ArenaNet had done a good job on the Guardians health pool.

I am still loving my Guardian!

For condition removal you might consider virtues as a viable option if you want to trait 20 into it Absolute resolution removes up to 3 conditions and does a small burst heal to everyone nearby. Since you’re in virtues you can also take Master of Consecrations or Consecrated Ground and use Purging Flames which has some nice AoE and condition removal.

Guardian’s have lots of options for getting rid of conditions, Shouts, Meditations, Consecrations, Virtues and signets with inscribed removal. You just have to trait far enough into a Line to make it work for you.

Lastly if Guardians had more HP they’d be broken hasn’t that been stated a hundred times already?

I use smite conditions and have meditation setup to actually heal me when I remove condition. I also use signet that auto removes conditions every 10s. I don’t notice the Guardians low HP pool because I made conditions work for me!

Does anyone know how to play a guardian successfully?

UnderworldSkull: It’s not like it’s hard or anything.

“I kind of think they should change some abilities around with the shield and focus. I think it would feel more shield like if you could use your shield to block instead of knockback. Does it NEED to happen, no. In pve against champs i think it should since knockbacks dont work on them and most champs are melee, i could just go to the focus but i hate the look with a passion. Either way though you get 33% damage reduction from either weapon, and you get a block that blocks 3 attacks or one that absorbs projectiles.
With the hammer #2 you can possibly do more damage than the gs number 2 but if all your seeing is 2k crits and want damage your built wrong, ive gotten around 4-5k crits and about the same with the Greatsword #2 but the hammer number 2 is on a shorter cd. It lacks mobility though but ive done some pretty good damage with it with a sword and shield for mobility and more knockback. I dont find myself using knockbacks that much in pve so i think i might try to get rid of my shield which i love to use a focus.”

Let’s not forget that there is a pretty significant AoE burst Heal attached to the #5 skill on the shield. Hit #5 once and you get a knockback, ranged absorption, and interrupt. Hit #5 again before the duration of the bubble is up and you get that second function which is that large AoE burst Heal. Because of that i don’t ever see Anet switching the #5 skills between the focus and the shield. It would be nice because you would have an awesome go-to for healing, but it would be marginally OP. Let’s not forget that it would also leave the shield with double damage mitigation- and as nice as that would be, it’d also be entirely to brainless in terms of utilization, and again, a little overpowered. I’ve noticed all the offhands have a trend of providing either Damage/Condition removal, damage mitigation/healing, or damage/damage reduction/healing. As it stands, i think the current set-up is pretty well balanced and i don’t think they would be able to switch those skills out without kittening the utility of those items.

UnderworldSkull.1863:

Does anyone know how to play a guardian successfully?

Do anything other than stack Power, Precision & Crit (ie glass cannon).

Ynna.8769:

UnderworldSkull: It’s not like it’s hard or anything.

Apparently it is. Most people don’t pick up on the fact that symbols combined with finishers add buttloads of utility to some of their favorite weapons. If you want condition removal the greatsword is a great option. Drop the symbol and do your whirl attack and each target you hit will remove a condition making it one of the most effective and consistent condition removal abilities in our arsenal. Combined with a couple shouts and pure of voice as well as the healing signet- or the contemplation of purity and purging flames meditation business you’ll actually start to miss conditions and wonder if they had been removed from the game. Combine that with longer lasting symbols and all symbols heal and now you can swap to a hammer and hit the #2 while in the symbol and increase the duration of your Retaliation while healing yourself and all others in the symbol- or damaging mobs in said symbol. It’s great for face-tanking mobs especially with the 100% damage reduction from the hammer’s number 1 attack.

This is a complicated system, but if people were to… oh i don’t know, pay attention to what they were doing and read the stuff popping up on their screen, they’d figure the nuances out and realize just how incredibly durable and (dare i say) over-powered guardians can actually be. I mean, if you do it right, does it really matter how many hit points you have or how fast or slow your kills are, if you are virtually untouchable you can afford to play with your prey a little before dropping it like a bad habit.

compared to a warrior we have very low base health.. but our health dances up and down. while a warrior’s health just drains.. slowly

We have SO many sources of healing… jesus christ just make sure you have some condition removals in your spec even if it is a passive. To be honest I absolutely love Smite condition. Dealing more damage while removing a conditon -> I’ll take this any day !

And even if all your condition removals are on cd.. we still have plenty sources of regeneration, that outheals a whole bunch of conditions..

Well i’ve got a level 80 Guradian at the moment. I’m currently speced for Power,Vit, Toughness with a bit of healing power at the side(yes I know people are going to say it’s useless, but not really all that much true). Mine is a Mace and Shield Guardian, and I can say it’s working pretty well. Shield is wonderful for defensive off-hand(For the team,not so much for yourself aside from the damage reduction.) Now in PvE My guardian is sitting on top of 18.1k health, that’s mostly with Exotics though. If this is about SPvP, you’ll be sitting around 15.k health iirc. Properly traited our effective health is really high. Also depends on what runes you run as well. Been running Superior Runes of Dwyana and it’s been working splendidly. Warriors only have endure pain(5 sec) and Shield block which are it’s main attractions vs the Guardian’s in the tankign deepartment.. Guards have Damage Reduction (up to 43% is you run signet of Judgement), Regeneration, Dodge Roll Heals with a 1.0 ratio. Passive life Regen from virtue, and then you’ve got Aegis. Our weakness for the enormous amount of utility and deceptive sustainability, is having low base hp and a lack of a good ranged weapon.

I’ve 14k HP with 2.8k defense. I am usually the only one survive in dungeon apocalypse where my teammates are wiped out. I don’t know how I do that but I just can’t die, lol.
However, I don’t deal much damage as my teammate do.

In PvP, I win in every 1v1 except a pro Mesmer. Those who use glass cannon build will die whenever I command my Spirit Weapon Hammer to smash on their head.

George Steel.1804:

It’s funny how many uninformed responses this thread already has.

“guardian is the most tanking class in the game. warrior doesnt even come close, no matter what he is squishy”

No, Guardian is definitely not. Warriors can take MUCH more abuse then a Guardian, although Guardians can help their team take abuse. Warriors have a 5 second block-all on their shield, endure pain, etc etc… Guardians have absolutely nothing like this (Renewed Focus doesn’t count, you end up standing still and can’t act) not even taking into account things like Guard’s bad mobility.

“When you have 33% damage reduction more or less permanently, you don’t really need the health pool that a warrior has.”

In absolutely NO circumstance except for running a 2h hammer in PVE does a Guardian have 100% protection boon uptime. You MIGHT be able to achieve this running a shield(terrible offhand weapon) + Saveyourselves+Holdtheline (IF you are specced for BOON duration), otherwise you’re never getting anything close to100% protection uptime.

I’m not saying Guardians even NEED a health increase(I would MUCH RATHER have our broken weapons looked at (Shield, Scepter, Staff)), and I play one, but I just had to set people straight.

The perma ~33% is a signet passive plus the trait that improves it by 20%. Not to mention how much other mitigation and healing we have. We have more mitigation and healing than a warrior even in the forms of blinds etc… Hell my glass build with GS and MH sword OH torch has 4 blinds with weapon swaps and renewed focus. Why do you think every one complains about bunker guardians not bunker warriors. The classes are designed for slightly different purposes and it’s stated that one of the guardians designed roles is to be able to take damage. If you’re saying they spent how ever many years designing this game and you’ve figured out in the couple months it’s been out they kittened that up, then clearly my post will be a wasted one.

I really feel we could use a health boost. Or at the very least be able to spec power/precision/ health like we can in spvp. In spvp my health is about 20k, in WvW and pve 16k… its too low. The game has been balanced around tpvp where a Knight’s amulet gives you all you need… these numbers are unavailable in pve or WvW.

KnarleyMarley.6937:

George Steel.1804:

It’s funny how many uninformed responses this thread already has.

“guardian is the most tanking class in the game. warrior doesnt even come close, no matter what he is squishy”

No, Guardian is definitely not. Warriors can take MUCH more abuse then a Guardian, although Guardians can help their team take abuse. Warriors have a 5 second block-all on their shield, endure pain, etc etc… Guardians have absolutely nothing like this (Renewed Focus doesn’t count, you end up standing still and can’t act) not even taking into account things like Guard’s bad mobility.

“When you have 33% damage reduction more or less permanently, you don’t really need the health pool that a warrior has.”

In absolutely NO circumstance except for running a 2h hammer in PVE does a Guardian have 100% protection boon uptime. You MIGHT be able to achieve this running a shield(terrible offhand weapon) + Saveyourselves+Holdtheline (IF you are specced for BOON duration), otherwise you’re never getting anything close to100% protection uptime.

I’m not saying Guardians even NEED a health increase(I would MUCH RATHER have our broken weapons looked at (Shield, Scepter, Staff)), and I play one, but I just had to set people straight.

The perma ~33% is a signet passive plus the trait that improves it by 20%. Not to mention how much other mitigation and healing we have. We have more mitigation and healing than a warrior even in the forms of blinds etc… Hell my glass build with GS and MH sword OH torch has 4 blinds with weapon swaps and renewed focus. Why do you think every one complains about bunker guardians not bunker warriors. The classes are designed for slightly different purposes and it’s stated that one of the guardians designed roles is to be able to take damage. If you’re saying they spent how ever many years designing this game and you’ve figured out in the couple months it’s been out they kittened that up, then clearly my post will be a wasted one.

Signet passive only reduce 10% incoming damage.

Perfect inscriptions increases how much incoming dmg it reduces. It says Improves signet passives by 20%, if that’s true at it further reduces incoming dmg by 20% on top of the signets base 10%, that’s 30%. Either way, point still stands. We don’t need the health pool we have a metric ton of other things to mitigate, heal, avoid, or soak up dmg with.

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Perfect inscriptions increases how much incoming dmg it reduces. It says Improves signet passives by 20%, if that’s true at it further reduces incoming dmg by 20% on top of the signets base 10%, that’s 30%. Either way, point still stands. We don’t need the health pool we have a metric ton of other things to mitigate, heal, avoid, or soak up dmg with.

God man, you’re really clueless aren’t you. This is how I know you don’t even play a Guardian.

The trait that improves signets states “Signet passive effects are improved” You are referring to the trait that REDUCES COOLDOWN BY 20%.

Even IF you were right about the 20%, which you’re not, you’re now adding a flat 20% to a 10% damage reduction? Seriously? You don’t think it would be a 20% improvement over 10% damage reduction, or 12%???

So really, the point still doesn’t stand. Dedicating a utility slot towards 10% passive damage reduction (and keep in mind, it’s often much better to actually use the signet for Fumble + Retaliation) is still a big sacrifice. And newsflash, 10% dmg reduction isn’t gonna do anything when you have a base pool of 13K.

I don’t see the necessity for Guardians to have improved health pool.. but your argument was so wrong..

Spec in symbols, use mace/shield-focus and Staff. If you use the trait, all symbols heal it works very well with AH. Feeling bold? Throw on a hammer and you still get the same results.

I can almost keep regen up constantly for my grps. Run with 1400 heal power and still have ~17K hit points because all of my gear is not Cleric. I use some of the Karma gear with hp and vit and lower my toughness a but. I don’t use Cleric weapons either but Shaman gear for the extra vit.

IMO its a mistake to run all Cleric because your hit points are too low even in PVE. For WVW, drop more Cleric gear for HOTWs and your hit points go to ~ 20.5K at a mild loss of healing power to ~950.

There is a lot of latitude in building a Guardian for both pve and pvp. With SY nerf, its time to pump that vit up a bit and in pvp IMO. More vit at the sacrafice of tougness is probably a good idea considering that toughness is squat against conditions.

KnarleyMarley.6937:
“Perfect inscriptions increases how much incoming dmg it reduces. It says Improves signet passives by 20%, if that’s true at it further reduces incoming dmg by 20% on top of the signets base 10%, that’s 30%. Either way, point still stands. We don’t need the health pool we have a metric ton of other things to mitigate, heal, avoid, or soak up dmg with.”

George Steel.1804
“God man, you’re really clueless aren’t you. This is how I know you don’t even play a Guardian.
The trait that improves signets states “Signet passive effects are improved” You are referring to the trait that REDUCES COOLDOWN BY 20%.
Even IF you were right about the 20%, which you’re not, you’re now adding a flat 20% to a 10% damage reduction? Seriously? You don’t think it would be a 20% improvement over 10% damage reduction, or 12%???
So really, the point still doesn’t stand. Dedicating a utility slot towards 10% passive damage reduction (and keep in mind, it’s often much better to actually use the signet for Fumble + Retaliation) is still a big sacrifice. And newsflash, 10% dmg reduction isn’t gonna do anything when you have a base pool of 13K.
I don’t see the necessity for Guardians to have improved health pool.. but your argument was so wrong.. "

No, I am talking about the trait. It says increases passive effects, not how much, it’s been speculated to be around 20% at least on the other sites I’ve read. However the trait it’s self is bugged in several ways making testing for anyone very difficult. You can read about it in the bug’s forum.

The description on the trait just reads “Improves Signet Passives” it doesn’t give you enough information to determine wether or not that is 20% of the base 10% on the signet or just adding another 20% onto the 10%. So your assumption is also wrong. This exact same speculation I have just described has also been discussed on many different forums in many different posts. No testing has been conclusive mostly due to the bugs. But one of the big points argued is that for a master trait jumping from 10%-12% really doesn’t seem at all enough for a master trait.

Lastly, you failed to read my posts in there entirety as well as the posts to which I was replying and so have skewed my points. The point of my post was to show a couple of the many, many ways that guardians have of dealing with damage beyond the health pool meat shield approach. This signet and it’s improved version was something I mentioned because it showcases a damage reduction the player doesn’t even have to be involved in, it requires no thinking or planning, it requires basically no knowledge of the game or other classes/bosses/mobs.

So, in summary. No my argument isn’t wrong, your understanding of it is, and your comprehension of my argument and how it relates to other previous posts is. Regardless we’re both making the same point that we don’t need the larger HP pools of other classes, so we both understand the basics of:
A. The class
B. The debate of this thread as a whole.
So what the kitten is the deal?

Also, for the record, guardian is my main atm. I haven’t been playing GW2 long, but I do have lot’s of experience in MMO’s as well as other competitive gameplay.

deherch.3158:

compared to a warrior we have very low base health.. but our health dances up and down. while a warrior’s health just drains.. slowly

We have SO many sources of healing… jesus christ just make sure you have some condition removals in your spec even if it is a passive. To be honest I absolutely love Smite condition. Dealing more damage while removing a conditon -> I’ll take this any day !

And even if all your condition removals are on cd.. we still have plenty sources of regeneration, that outheals a whole bunch of conditions..

You grossly underestimate a warrior’s ability to heal.

Adrenal Health and Healing Signet alone will give them 320 HP/s with ZERO healing power. Start adding in things like regen and shout healing and they are on par to guardians with health restoration. However warriors have another advantage other than 8k more base HP. Hard CC. Only engineers can match the CC potential of a warrior.

Most people underestimate warriors defensive capabilities because nearly all of them are glass cannon 100b users.

See it this way: we’re already at the bottom of the healthpoolclub, so it’s impossible for them to nerf our HP