Guardian's becoming out dated?

Guardian's becoming out dated?

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Posted by: Valiant.4852

Valiant.4852

Overview

So i have noticed that each patch that has been released (not all patches) there have been “balance” changes to guardian but these balances are affecting the viability of even playing a guardian as some other people have said on this forum already everything a guardian can do can be done better by another class it seems that whenever we the guardians find a way to adapt and overcome the changes that make our builds ineffective we have it stripped from us to “balance” the game i understand that there will always be counter classes and counter builds but its getting to a point where it is unreasonable now.

Guardian Class Flaws

upon joining the GW2 community i instantly selected guardian as i was under the impression this would be a very “tanky” class that’s is the implication of the name Guardian by definition it protects and defends i came to discover that i was completely wrong about this pre conception and that guardians in fact had one of the lowest health pools in the game and weren’t at all useful as a tank that classes in light “cloth” armour served as better tanks and so i consigned myself to be a damage dealer i eventually fell in love with the damage dealing capability that guardians brought to the fore however over time the ability to actually do significant amounts of damage has been slowly stripped away and each build from direct damage to condition builds has become less and less potent and so we are forced to go back to “glass” builds such as berserker stats and that brings us back to the health pool issue, anyway moving on to mobility it is well known throughout the GW2 community that guardians are extremely slow and immobile if you want to get anywhere with a guardian you have to use either “wings of resolve” or great sword two “leap of faith” and even then you gain very little ground, you could use “retreat” but then that takes away from the utility and in any combat situation retreat is essentially useless, “what about symbol of swiftness?” i have been asked in the past anyone who has played a guardian will know that once placed the symbol will grant a very small period of swiftness and if so much as a random creature steps into it bang you are in combat and the whole purpose of the swiftness becomes negated. It is my understanding that most if not all other classes have some manner of non target mobility and or a passive speed boost be it either in traits or a “signet” why is it guardians have to suffer and lag behind a group when they aren’t even tank’s it seems to me that somewhere along the line the guardians purpose has become mixed up and confused. Conditions: guardians don’t seem to have many options when it come’s to applying condition’s it’s “burn or go home” now burn may be the most damaging offensive condition in the game but it is unbelievably easy to wipe away a stack of burns as it is only one condition and the duration is painfully low also i have had a few fellow guardians who use condition builds come to me and complain that since recent patches they are not burning for nearly as much as they did previously.

Healing Skills

lets start with shelter now this heal has always been essentially pointless alright it gives us a block for a very finite period of time but the heal is so miniscule that you may as well not have used it in the first place and the cooldown?! 30 seconds for so little a heal enough said on that skill. Litany of wrath do i even need to talk about this one? completely useless and unviable in every situation from WvW to PVE. Signet of resolve : 1 condition removed every 10 seconds provided you haven’t had to heal yourself which you more than likely have being that guardians have such a limited health pool anyhow that as a passive is ineffective the healing amount is reasonable enough but the cool down of 40 seconds once again hurts the viability of the skill. Receive the light is a “shout” and thus should act as a shout does and affect an area around the user as opposed to a very narrow cone which relies on your allies being densely grouped once again for such a small amount of healing 40 seconds is for want of a better term an unfair cool down. Purification is a fairly decent heal all in all being that it is a trap you have to rely on clever and well timed placements to make this useful.

Utility skills

“Spirit weapons” are completely pointless they serve no purpose they aren’t useful for combat and they aren’t useful for any kind of utility remove them from the game or make them useful the only reason anyone would use them is because it looks “cool” to have a bunch of floating weapons follow you about that’s all on spirit weapons.

“hold the line” is also useless why would you use that when you can equip a shield and have the same effect with the four skill “shield of judgement” for a smaller cool down period minus the regen.

“Stand your ground” I have no issues with this skill any more since the recent patch which corrected the damage done to stability as a defense against crowd control.

“Save yourselves” pulling conditions to yourself in a large fight situation for example WvW is basically instant death the skill itself isn’t terribly bad but perhaps the cool down could do with adjusting.

“Sanctuary” i don’t think i really need to go over this one its pretty self explanitory its a pointless skill with an excessive coold own for what it does, a tiny little bubble that generates an even smaller amount of healing i honestly don’t know why this skill exists let alone why the cool down is so long.

“Hallowed Ground” ok this skill has seen next to no use by anyone since its conception because there is no reason to use it when you have skills such as “stand your ground” and the boon duration bonus you have from it can be provided by runes, armour or other classes shared buffs such as the revenants F2 ability naturalistic resonance.

“Purging flames” a generally useful skill no major issues with this one other than it’s lacking duration and the ability to condition cleanse allies seems to be a one time deal perhaps pulsing cleanse may be an idea?

“wall of reflection” its a fairly handy skill in certain PVE situation’s as in some dungeons or fractals though you could just have a revenant use a hammer and have a portable version of this skill perhaps make it mobile for guards as well?

“merciful Intervention” once again we come to another pointless skill in this day and age unless you are traited and built for healing the small heal it provides isn’t going to do much you can have a friendly built with toughness and vitality and they will still take more than the amount healed in a single hit from almost anything at level 80 the cool down is far to long for the small utility it brings sure its a “blink” but its only useful if you have someone to blink to this skill should not require a friendly for the blink to work and the cool down should be significantly lower.

“Judge’s Intervention” This is a very widely used skill by all build’s from direct damage to condition it’s ability to get you into the thick of a fight or to catch up to a group is very useful but once again it requires a target to do anything else it is just wasted if a target goes out of range and as i’m sure any other guardian would tell you that’s a long wait for it to come back up again cool down is a problem here.

“Contemplation of purity” good skill no issues with this one at all it is well balanced for what it provide’s.

“Smite condition” perhaps this skill should apply burning as the animation is an exploding ring of fire.

“Signet of mercy” the potential here is good but the skill simply cant be used in anything but an ideal PVE situation the effect is similar to a warrior’s “war banner” but with a smaller area of effect the issue with this skill is the ridiculous cast time 3.75 seconds to cast it and its on a 150 second cool down not to mention how you are forced to remain stationary to cast the skill you may as well hold up a flashing sign saying “kill me now”. when using this skill you are basically begging to be interrupted and interrupting is easy these days just a little bit of crowd control a knock down, push or pull and bang huge cool down skill wasted and probably battle lost as a result.

“Bane Signet” no real issues with this one the passive is good and the cool down is appropriate for the active ability.

“Signet of wrath” like the bane signet good passive appropriate cool down.

“Signet of judgement” also pretty good all round although weakness doesn’t really feel useful.

“traps” all traps with the exception’s of Purification and Dragon’s maw are almost completly ineffective for everyone but a player running full berserker’s stats and if you manage to drop all thoose in a fight without being killed before you do so then bravo.

Elite skills

“dragon’s maw” again cool down is an issue for what the trap provides, the maximum “wall hit’s” will be over very fast in any situation involving a group fight making this skill only useful in smaller fights the 10 stacks of might is fantastic but that will run out in a hurry and you will be waiting 75 seconds to get more.

“feel my wrath” reasonable skill well balanced for what’s provided, no issue’s

“Signet of courage” absolutely brilliant skill however like “signet of mercy” the cast time (4.25)is absurd and forces you to be stationary to complete the skill once again inviting interruption and more than likely death as you will only be using this in a situation where your or your parties health is at a dangerously low point.

“Renewed Focus” useful skill recharging virtues in a tricky situation can be a life saver though three seconds is over awfully fast.

Weapon skills; i will only go over the ones i have issues with here as there are so many.

off hand shield number 5 skill now the description of this skill states that it absorbs projectiles however i have personally seen many different kinds of projectile pass straight through it perhaps this needs to be looked into as a bug of sorts or maybe the description needs to be changed to match the actual effect as a shield bubble i feel that enemies shouldn’t be able to pass through it the duration is 4 seconds which isn’t a long time so it’s isn’t an unreasonable suggestion.

Hammer 1 skill the final skill in this combo take far to long to cast it is easy to interupt and the lack of DPS provided makes the hammer a bad option for anything but crowd control
Hammer 2 mighty blow the animation is a leap so we should be leaping the range should be greater perhaps 600

Staff 3 “symbol of swiftness” should provide a longer duration of swiftness in one hit and instead of a ground targeted ring it should be a local AoE pulse it is well known that placing the symbol on the ground will more often than not result in your character entering combat once so much as a single enemy enter’s its radius.

Staff 5 “Line of warding” now this skill is limited on how many targets it can effect making it no longer effective as a means of controlling a “choke point” the cool down should be reduced somewhat

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Posted by: mrauls.6519

mrauls.6519

We have so many kittening useless traits. We literally have one build for every game mode

Mes (Guardian)
I make PvP & WvW videos

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

You said Shelter was pointless. I laughed and stopped reading. You have no clue what you’re talking about.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: King Cephalopod.7942

King Cephalopod.7942

This is a long post and I’m busy so I’m only going to point out a few things. 1) shelter is really good except for the addition of more unblockables thanks to power creep 2) You can move while casting signet of mercy, the problem is it takes so long that if there’s too much heat to hand-res they’ll be dead before it works anyways, and the range is short enough you could just run there 3) Signet of courage is just bad, the passive range is terrible, the interval is awful, the healing per second is trash, and the active is booty buttcheeks when people go 100-0 in a few seconds.

A little savagery now and then is relished by the wisest men.
Don’t cry, Signet of Mercy. Others may forget you, but I will always remember.
Our deficiencies may be overcome by practice and self-discipline.

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Posted by: Sinzaku.2980

Sinzaku.2980

If only u were playing necro so u could feel our pain
At least guard is pretty strong in pvp atm

“Necromancer in Heart and Soul” ~ #8k Hours#Asura
-(EvE ~ EU)-

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

If only u were playing necro so u could feel our pain
At least guard is pretty strong in pvp atm

LOL. At the competitive level, necro is much better than guardian.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: Silhouette.5631

Silhouette.5631

I use sanctuary more to break the defiance bars of PvE mobs than I do to shelter myself. Yup…

(edited by Silhouette.5631)

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Posted by: Weo weo.6378

Weo weo.6378

I genuinely feel sorry for guard in terms of pvp now, especially for those who like to roam in WvW with the recent nerfs to things like True shot. IMO, though they have lost their place in comp, they are still some of the nicest things to have in group pve and pugs as they improve everyone’s performance simply by having virtues.

I’d be a bit more annoyed about the traits however, as mrauls said you basically have a one viable build in most gamestyles, though I’d argue Core guard AH frontline can still be very effective in an organized wvw group even if it requires an entirely separate armor set. In fact with the buffs to shouts, I think frontline is probably the place where they shine for now which is unfortunate because dragonhunter itself is horrible for it.

Multiple Class Disorder

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Posted by: Kaim.5483

Kaim.5483

I have to add that there’s a problem when using “save yourselves” with the shout trait or rune of the trooper: it pulls all conditions from allies to you first and then clears/converts 1 condition for allies and yourself later. I would like to see it clears/converts 1 condition first and then pull the rest to me so my allies get a boon (from shout trait) and I get fewer conditions.

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Posted by: reign.2369

reign.2369

“lets start with shelter now this heal has always been essentially pointless”

You’re funny.

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Posted by: DePhoenix.2819

DePhoenix.2819

-Shelter isn’t bad.

-“Why take Guard if a Rev has a reflect on his hammer” because Rev doesn’t have a reflect on his hammer, it merely blocks them.

-“Hammer 1 skill the final skill in this combo take far to long to cast it is easy to interupt and the lack of DPS provided makes the hammer a bad option for anything but crowd control” Hammer is literally the best dps weapon

-“Staff 3 and 5 need buffs”, go play WvW, they’re good as it is.

-“Traps are ineffective etc. Except when zerk.” Not true. My tank uses the procession of blades and it’s a ton of extra dps.

(edited by DePhoenix.2819)

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Posted by: Ragnar the Rock.3174

Ragnar the Rock.3174

Pretty sure the Op meant sanctuary not shelter because sanctuary is absolute crap.
(although if “unblockable” continues to be given out like it was in HOT then shelter will be crap as well)

As for what he said, he gave bad examples & explained the reasons badly but is pretty right about guard skills being outdated or designed badly.

A good 50% if not more of the guardian traits & utility skills are so bad that nobody in their right mind would use them for anything other then a joke. (the number was lower at original launch but has continued to climb since then)

The traps at this point should frankly just have lower damage (say 20ish %), lower cool downs (Again 20ish %) & share their buffs with allies. (Anet has made it pretty clear they dont like guard having burst so why not boon share)

As for weapon skills

1: Hammer number 1 & 5 could definitely use some speed adjustment (and in the later case something to justify using it given how easily teleports & stability counter it)

2: The sword definitely needs some quality adjustments on the number 1 &3 given how easy to reflect, miss or just strafe around them it is.

3: The staff could definitely use some quality adjustments, the might it provides is done so much better by warriors/revs & ele’s without them having to stand still.
The symbol sucks as it requires you to stand still to get the most of it (standing still in this game is a big no no)
The ward could also use a secondary effect given how easy teleports and stability counter it.

4: The mace, again the fact you have to remain stationary for symbols makes it a bad choice allot of the time.

5: The scepter, the fact you can outrun or strafe the projectiles is just sad.

6: The greatsword, Arguably the best weapon the guardian has it still has one flaw. That flaw is the lack of a defensive skill that pretty much every other 2 handed weapon for every class in game has. This means its balls to the wall offense and you must rely on other things for your defense. (More of a personal gripe but makes ya wonder why it doesn’t have a defensive skill like other classes 2handed weapons do)

And don’t even get me started on the fact that if you want reliable survivability the only real option is meditations. Every other option is severely under par or just relies way way too much on stacking on top of a bunch of allies.
That alone pretty much neuters guardian flexibility of role & choice in a few game modes.

(edited by Ragnar the Rock.3174)

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Posted by: GenoGar.5497

GenoGar.5497

Shelter is the only good guardian heal. It’s also the only channeled block a guardian has access to.

All spirit weapons have a use. Stacking burns, CC, projectile defense and such. Though bow could be more useful.

Hold the Line is mainly used with soldier runes and tanking bombs sorta. But I would like to see a CD reduction. It was recently buffed to actually have the voice lines enabled so there’s that.

Sanctuary is fun in EotM. You can deny stomps at range as well. CD could be lower.

Wall of Reflection is basically the King alongside Feedback. Also Revenents can’t reflect projectiles. They only block them. You’re using Hammer… Or Ventari… What mode are we playing in?

JI is so good… Why are you complaining about a shadow step. Warriors have been crying for ages because of cliffing and lack or teleports.

Traps can be used by non berserkers.

Signet of Courage is terrible. Nothing about it is good other than looking shiny in DR.

Renewed Focus’s 3 second invuln is an eternity. I hate this skill lol.

Hammer is actually the guardian’s #1 DPS weapon.

The only weapon that needs serious review is Sword.

The other stuff is neutral or I agree with but man… The points I said above kinda show you don’t know what guardians need right now.

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Posted by: mrauls.6519

mrauls.6519

Shelter is the only good guardian heal. It’s also the only channeled block a guardian has access to.

All spirit weapons have a use. Stacking burns, CC, projectile defense and such. Though bow could be more useful.

Hold the Line is mainly used with soldier runes and tanking bombs sorta. But I would like to see a CD reduction. It was recently buffed to actually have the voice lines enabled so there’s that.

Sanctuary is fun in EotM. You can deny stomps at range as well. CD could be lower.

Wall of Reflection is basically the King alongside Feedback. Also Revenents can’t reflect projectiles. They only block them. You’re using Hammer… Or Ventari… What mode are we playing in?

JI is so good… Why are you complaining about a shadow step. Warriors have been crying for ages because of cliffing and lack or teleports.

Traps can be used by non berserkers.

Signet of Courage is terrible. Nothing about it is good other than looking shiny in DR.

Renewed Focus’s 3 second invuln is an eternity. I hate this skill lol.

Hammer is actually the guardian’s #1 DPS weapon.

The only weapon that needs serious review is Sword.

The other stuff is neutral or I agree with but man… The points I said above kinda show you don’t know what guardians need right now.

Hmm seems you only focused on PvE & WvW. Honestly anything can work there to a certain degree…

Mes (Guardian)
I make PvP & WvW videos

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

becoming ? No, it was already outdated, Anet tough they could put Guard to its place with a build that needs to be fighthing very squishy and bad players, and leech form this game power creep, any class with sturdy gear can nullify the power creep that DH needs to work, on some classes players can go afk for a secs while DH runs away after trap fail due DH damage output VS resilent classes.

Dh’s cant even kill mace shield bunker guards wich is easilly killed in seconds by any other class (wvw gameplay).
If pick up class that does good damage with sturdy gear, watch Dh panics cause he cant kill target nor run away, kill Dh, laught on its body.

It is a class that needs power creep to work, it is awfully designed.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Because our support and healing is bieng outdone by revenants, druids and elementalist. Our sustain is also bieng outdone by scrappers placing more boons on itself then a shoutcard can do. But at the same still do kittentons of damage.

Guardians have DPS but mediocore sustain.

You are better of taking a tankier class with equal dps or greater then a class with mediocore to subpar sustain, one trick poney

That’s why it kinda getting outdated.

It’s also why i find the damage nerfs ridiculous.

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Posted by: AGGabriel.9230

AGGabriel.9230

The guardian has so many useless traits skills and weapons that im surprised there are any guardians left and more that there still letting guardian to be a profession in the game. Each update it hurts since HOT at start it was fun the DH/guardian manage to survive the other professions but now seriously, after they have nerf the DH core (traps) they switch to bow (skill 2) that’s just ruining the elite specialization itself letting nothing left.
What in godforsaken its next the elite virtues if they touch that its game over DH (they should just remove it from the game)

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Posted by: Sird.4536

Sird.4536

Stopped ready after your healing paragraph.

What I will say is Guardains have a lot of useless traits and utility skills. I am hoping whenever this new elite spec is released that it is the most overpowered elite spec ever.

Ps. Have they nerfed any of the other elite spec weapons? I pretty much only play guard so excuse my ignorance but if we are the only class to have our elite spec weapon nerfed then wow.

RP enthusiast

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Posted by: Ragnar the Rock.3174

Ragnar the Rock.3174

Stopped ready after your healing paragraph.

What I will say is Guardains have a lot of useless traits and utility skills. I am hoping whenever this new elite spec is released that it is the most overpowered elite spec ever.

Ps. Have they nerfed any of the other elite spec weapons? I pretty much only play guard so excuse my ignorance but if we are the only class to have our elite spec weapon nerfed then wow.

They have nerfed a few skills & traits for others here & there but so far guard got the only weapon nerf other then gunflame with could easily crit for 20k if not more pre nerf.

As for elite specs, no elite spec will solve the issues guardian has & if it starts out OP it will only make them worse in the long run because it will be nerfed to crap later.

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Posted by: Elpredator.8523

Elpredator.8523

meh the devs dont even care or read this i bet so they have no clue how this or class works intricately and theres no dedicated revamp team so things wont change and the latest " balance patch" proves this.

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Posted by: Alaryk.6310

Alaryk.6310

Guardians outdated, short answer is yes … long answer is more nerfs will be seen at a later date. Working as intended.

On a serious note the class needs a serious look over and rework. I want my 25% run speed passive and spirit weapons need more love.

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Posted by: Gwaihir.1745

Gwaihir.1745

I recall anet stating “that’s not in the works for the guardian” when they addressed the sword projectile issue on revenant and the issue with spirit weapons vs gyros. Both times when pushed they stated that guards would not receive the same fixes.

The class has been abandoned for now.

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Honestly if they allowed dragonhunter to have it’s old ’’broken’’ dps and skills. Then it would actually be semi equal with the rest of the classes. Because it’s sustain is still subpar. No amount of little aegis. Or blocks is gonna save you from unblockables. pulsing CC, Pulsing AOE damage and condi bombs. No blocks will compensate for like 2 or 3 burst heals and a few condi clears. while having 2.167 armour.

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Posted by: mrauls.6519

mrauls.6519

Honestly if they allowed dragonhunter to have it’s old ’’broken’’ dps and skills. Then it would actually be semi equal with the rest of the classes. Because it’s sustain is still subpar. No amount of little aegis. Or blocks is gonna save you from unblockables. pulsing CC, Pulsing AOE damage and condi bombs. No blocks will compensate for like 2 or 3 burst heals and a few condi clears. while having 2.167 armour.

So true :| Why is class balance so bad AN?

Mes (Guardian)
I make PvP & WvW videos

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Posted by: Alaryk.6310

Alaryk.6310

Why are the three light armored classes more tank-ier than Guardian? I wear platemail and you are telling me that someone wearing cloth can go toe to toe with me and still come out on top… I think something broke.

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Why are the three light armored classes more tank-ier than Guardian? I wear platemail and you are telling me that someone wearing cloth can go toe to toe with me and still come out on top… I think something broke.

It’s similar to magic female armour trope. The lesser u wear the tankier u get .

Only in reverse. the heavier the class the less tankier it gets. With an added flavour of lower dps as well.

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Why are the three light armored classes more tank-ier than Guardian? I wear platemail and you are telling me that someone wearing cloth can go toe to toe with me and still come out on top… I think something broke.

It’s similar to magic female armour trope. The lesser u wear the tankier u get .

Only in reverse. the heavier the class the less tankier it gets. With an added flavour of lower dps as well.

only on guard :| cause kitten balance.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Why are the three light armored classes more tank-ier than Guardian? I wear platemail and you are telling me that someone wearing cloth can go toe to toe with me and still come out on top… I think something broke.

It’s similar to magic female armour trope. The lesser u wear the tankier u get .

Only in reverse. the heavier the class the less tankier it gets. With an added flavour of lower dps as well.

only on guard :| cause kitten balance.

Yep. cause kitten guardians. They stomp people in hotjoin so i guess they need to be nerfed.

Today I litterally told a friend who hasn’t played gw2 in months how to deal with traps. And within less then a battle he dealt with traps.

We all know why they nerfed DH. It’s because it’s very unfriendly to new players and hotjoiners.

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

DH works to good cause many want squishy fast killing gimmick builds… if they bring back the defensive trinkets some classes were unkilable against a dh trapper, and could kill DH easilly..

DH only works on power creep situation, on WvW ill ic is DH killing rally bot builds, for some reason ive seen 5dh looking for 5vs1 situations to have sure they kill the target… it is a hilarious class design on the negative conotation.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)