Guild Wars 2

Why does a range weapon (longbow) do more damage than a melee weapon (mace)? Why does a defensive weapon (mace) do more damage than a offensive one (sword)? Why am I sitting on tons of useless ascended and legendary weapons because longbow just outclasses all of them? Is there anybody that is bothered by this aswell? :<

I really think guardian weapons need some changes in damage numbers considering that the risk vs reward factor is completly turned arround.

As an owner of Bolt and Rodgort I feel you. I think balance will come as right now most of the classes are pigeon-holed into specializations, core classes should become competitive at some point and I think sword will probably get the boost it deserves.

There are classes where sword is still viable… Try Mesmer/Chrono perhaps?

It’s less about the skins and more about the gameplay that makes me miss mace. I never liked sword that much since it’s just spamming auto and mace actually has some depth to it if you try to dps with it (canceling your auto after 2nd hit, using protectors strike efficiently).

Would still prefer sword over a range weapon though. Also it’s the weapon that puts you at the biggest risk since it has barely any defenses and is melee so it should do the most damage out of the three imo.

Well at least u got acended and legendary weapons.

Our weapons are fine. Longbow should out damage a mace, since the mace is largely a defensive weapon (although it still outputs respectable damage). The sword is a fine weapon that specializes in mobility, it just falls short in damage because it doesn’t have a nice damage pairing offhand to fill in its weaknesses. If torch was rebuilt to provide a strong DPS increase in the off hand slot then both mace and sword would see a lot more play.

Indure.5410:

Our weapons are fine. Longbow should out damage a mace, since the mace is largely a defensive weapon (although it still outputs respectable damage). The sword is a fine weapon that specializes in mobility, it just falls short in damage because it doesn’t have a nice damage pairing offhand to fill in its weaknesses. If torch was rebuilt to provide a strong DPS increase in the off hand slot then both mace and sword would see a lot more play.

…what…

Torch and Focus are really nice strong DPS offhands (in PvE) so what the hell are you talking about? xd

Also sword doesn’t really provide that great mobility. If it would be warrior sword we’re talking about which is basicly a utility weapon maybe I would agree with you but guard sword utility is tiny, especially in PvE where you don’t use the meh projectile defense or the port at all, apart from skips.

Well first of all

GS + Mace/Torch DPS vary between 0 and 5% less dps than a GS + Longbow guardian so I think it’s pretty great. Did you just look at what the meta is and think that anything that isn’t the meta in dungeon/fractal is garbage dps?

Scepter/Torch + GS condi DPS go higher and lower than GS + Longbow over time, but overall it’s pretty much the same.

Focus is very similar to torch in dps as an offhand while offering more defense, making it also a good weapon.

Hammer is around 5-10% less dps than GS + Longbow, while bringing a huge defensive boost to your team. It’s probably the best weapon in raid.

So really, GS, Longbow, Mace, Torch, Scepter, Hammer and Focus are all very good weapons, able to be used in build that are all very near in dps compare to the meta GS + Longbow. Even Shield also have niche used in a lot of situation, and more than often is part of the standard loadout of a guardian tank in raid.

Sure, a lot of those weapons could have some work on them. Torch 5 being the most obvious. But in reality only Sword is really in bad shape. Looks at the actual effectiveness of each weapons, because if you only think about the meta, there will always be on best setup a bit higher than everything else. The goal isn’t to make sure that doesn’t happen. The goal is too keep all other weapons set close enough to it that they are worth using, and to try to give all of them a little flavor that put them ahead in certain situation. And for the guardian, they pretty much got it right for the most part.

Thaddeus.4891:

Well first of all

GS + Mace/Torch DPS vary between 0 and 5% less dps than a GS + Longbow guardian so I think it’s pretty great. Did you just look at what the meta is and think that anything that isn’t the meta in dungeon/fractal is garbage dps?

Scepter/Torch + GS condi DPS go higher and lower than GS + Longbow over time, but overall it’s pretty much the same.

Focus is very similar to torch in dps as an offhand while offering more defense, making it also a good weapon.

Hammer is around 5-10% less dps than GS + Longbow, while bringing a huge defensive boost to your team. It’s probably the best weapon in raid.

So really, GS, Longbow, Mace, Torch, Scepter, Hammer and Focus are all very good weapons, able to be used in build that are all very near in dps compare to the meta GS + Longbow. Even Shield also have niche used in a lot of situation, and more than often is part of the standard loadout of a guardian tank in raid.

Sure, a lot of those weapons could have some work on them. Torch 5 being the most obvious. But in reality only Sword is really in bad shape. Looks at the actual effectiveness of each weapons, because if you only think about the meta, there will always be on best setup a bit higher than everything else. The goal isn’t to make sure that doesn’t happen. The goal is too keep all other weapons set close enough to it that they are worth using, and to try to give all of them a little flavor that put them ahead in certain situation. And for the guardian, they pretty much got it right for the most part.

I’m aware of all of these facts and I play mace instead of longbow from time to time when I really don’t feel like using longbow.

The thing is if mace wouldn’t be so much more fun for me there is just no reason to use it (outside of situations where you use it for surviving with the block, on skips, in dredge fractal or something).

Since it’s still useful (somewhat) and it was never designed to be an offensive weapon mace probably shouldn’t be touched, I agree with you on that. Maybe longbow is fine aswell since after all it’s supposed to be a high dps weapon (i think? xd) but longbow being much better than sword is kinda stupid considering that longbow is much safer since it’s ranged.

Pregnantman.8259:

The fact remains that however small, longbow still pulls better damage than mace or sword with focus or torch. It would still be bad design even if longbow had the same damage with mace and torch or focus because you don’t get to benefit from range with mace. The support comes with mace and torch or focus doesn’t really give enough excuse for the melee setup to be equal or lower in damage compared to longbow.

I don’t really get what you mean with “benefiting from range” since you still want to stand inside of less than 600 range to the boss to get might from revs and wars. I kinda somewhat agree a tiny bit on mace having some utility and that kinda justifying the lower damage, especially since the difference isn’t that big but my point of sword being worse for no reason still stands.

Keksmuffin.1450:

…what…

Torch and Focus are really nice strong DPS offhands (in PvE) so what the hell are you talking about? xd

Also sword doesn’t really provide that great mobility. If it would be warrior sword we’re talking about which is basicly a utility weapon maybe I would agree with you but guard sword utility is tiny, especially in PvE where you don’t use the meh projectile defense or the port at all, apart from skips.

They are good offhands, focus especially. Although I don’t understand how the 36s cooldown Shield of Wrath makes it considered a DPS offhand. Torch on the other hand is a mix. Zealot’s Flame is good, but only great with Radiant Fire. And Cleansing Flame is very lackluster in both PVE and PVP.

Indure.5410:

Keksmuffin.1450:

…what…

Torch and Focus are really nice strong DPS offhands (in PvE) so what the hell are you talking about? xd

Also sword doesn’t really provide that great mobility. If it would be warrior sword we’re talking about which is basicly a utility weapon maybe I would agree with you but guard sword utility is tiny, especially in PvE where you don’t use the meh projectile defense or the port at all, apart from skips.

They are good offhands, focus especially. Although I don’t understand how the 36s cooldown Shield of Wrath makes it considered a DPS offhand. Torch on the other hand is a mix. Zealot’s Flame is good, but only great with Radiant Fire. And Cleansing Flame is very lackluster in both PVE and PVP.

You’re kinda missinformed. Zealots Flame is good with and without radiant fire as it’s a DPS increase on it’s own. Also focus dps is good cause you can cancel and reset your auto after the 2nd strike with RoJ and it’s a DPS gain if the bounce hits your target. You’re obviously right about cleansing flame which is a skill that might aswell not exist but oh well.

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

You’re proving my point. Longbow is less risk than melee weapons and shouldn’t outDPS them in an optimal situation which is all I was saying from the start.

You are putting way too much value on range, if you want to stay at 300 range then you won’t put out that 5% increased dps.
Just longbow dps is lower than GS/mace dps, so you have to be in melee to get GS/LB dps so Longbow is a melee weapon too so it doesn’t have to be lower?

Arutha.9874:

You are putting way too much value on range, if you want to stay at 300 range then you won’t put out that 5% increased dps.
Just longbow dps is lower than GS/mace dps, so you have to be in melee to get GS/LB dps so Longbow is a melee weapon too so it doesn’t have to be lower?

So longbow damage is justified because GS is a melee weapon. What.

Yes longbow cannot be used from range for an optimal rotation so it is not doing optimal dps from range with “less risk” it doesn’t have better dps than melee options.

You can still get on range while on longbow since you can shoot 3 and 4 behind you and just go melee again when you’re about to switch to GS?

dont rly get the argument

Dragonhunter IS OUR DPS SPECC, the idea of this was to introduce a Pure Zerker specc to the guardian Why WOULDNT the zerker weapon we’ve been given be the higher DPS, Im sorry but Rangers LB have been outdamaging Melee Weapons for Years, they dont take “RISK” into the fact of “balance”

They intended us to be Ranged DPS or Melee Tanks, thats just how it is, to argue we sghould nerf our OWN elites based on a Risk factor in PvE is ridiculous because Right now we’re ALREAYD Pushed into being only tanks because DH DPS is performing at a high enough level to be taken willingly into PuGs.

We’re Dropping out of SPVP Meta at a alarming rate, ESL shows this every day, We’re being reduced to only being capable of tanking slowly, and you wish to aid this with actually nerfing the Specc all together, Anet have had Base guardian for 3 years and its worked out this way, why would u ask for nerfs given the factor u wont recieve any buffs, u’ll just be nerfed down.

I understand u want to see MORE then just dragonhunter used, but in my opinon i’d Rather have Dragonhunter then have Nothing, we’ll be the Next SPVP Warriors if they smack us with nerfs on the only kitten viable specc we have.

honestly if it annoys u so much, Reroll, its exactly what u would be forced to do if they nerf dragonhunter anyway.

Arutha.9874:

Yes longbow cannot be used from range for an optimal rotation so it is not doing optimal dps from range with “less risk” it doesn’t have better dps than melee options.

True, but Longbow still have 3 advantages.

1) 50% of the time I can be outside the range of any melee mobs, without sacrificing any dps, I’ll take less damage.

2) If things go bad or if the boss have a big damage AoE under him (Fractal Shaman three lava front for exemple). You have 50% chance to be in longbow and be able range him, which is better dps, than a melee only character that just need to get out of there for some second.

3) If you end up under too much pressure, you can go in range and stay there while you recuperate, which is a better solution than to stay in melee and die or get outside the boss range and do zero dps.

The point is, Longbow give you a bit more moving room for some situation that melee weapon just don’t give you. GS + Longow shouldn’t be completly nerf, just maybe 5% less dps than a GS + Mace/Torch build. But we are talking about micro balancing tbh. It’s not a big problem in reality, sword is much more of an issue.

Drayos.8759:

dont rly get the argument

Dragonhunter IS OUR DPS SPECC, the idea of this was to introduce a Pure Zerker specc to the guardian Why WOULDNT the zerker weapon we’ve been given be the higher DPS, Im sorry but Rangers LB have been outdamaging Melee Weapons for Years, they dont take “RISK” into the fact of “balance”

They intended us to be Ranged DPS or Melee Tanks, thats just how it is, to argue we sghould nerf our OWN elites based on a Risk factor in PvE is ridiculous because Right now we’re ALREAYD Pushed into being only tanks because DH DPS is performing at a high enough level to be taken willingly into PuGs.

We’re Dropping out of SPVP Meta at a alarming rate, ESL shows this every day, We’re being reduced to only being capable of tanking slowly, and you wish to aid this with actually nerfing the Specc all together, Anet have had Base guardian for 3 years and its worked out this way, why would u ask for nerfs given the factor u wont recieve any buffs, u’ll just be nerfed down.

I understand u want to see MORE then just dragonhunter used, but in my opinon i’d Rather have Dragonhunter then have Nothing, we’ll be the Next SPVP Warriors if they smack us with nerfs on the only kitten viable specc we have.

honestly if it annoys u so much, Reroll, its exactly what u would be forced to do if they nerf dragonhunter anyway.

You got something wrong. I love dragonhunter. I don’t dislike longbow. I just think it’s wrong for it to outdps melee weapons.

I’d like to offer my 2cents on the subject matter of Guardian Weaponry. I find nearly all if not all weapons to be either clunky, boring or unrewarding for how obvious some of the skills are. This is PURELY from an spvp perspective.

Hammer: Theoretically, this weapon would provide 100% protection uptime but in a real-world setting(pvp), this isn’t even close to being the case. This weapon is slow, the damage isn’t very high, the CC aspects of it are so obvious and unrewarding.

Great Sword: This almost feels like Hammer in how obvious the abilities are to damage ratio. For instance, Whirling Wrath is a poor version of say Whirlwind on Warrior which provides similar damage, acts as an evade, mobility and is far easier to pull off. The symbol is only useful against a downed-body.

Scepter: The tracking is still terrible, Smite provides very inconsistent damage. This weapon was only utilized for its immobilize.

Sword: This essentially is another ranged weapon that is very clunky on its auto, Zealot’s defense makes no sense since it allows your enemy to widen the distance even more. Also, why isn’t Flashing Blade a leap finisher?

Torch: Again, another obvious weapon to which only 1 of the 2 skills are actually useful. Cleansing Flame is under utilized due to it providing zero benefit to the Guardian himself but its obviousness is just prime to be interrupted.

Mace: The auto doesn’t cleave on the third strike, its healing is very small unless you invest a significant amount of HP(which is fine for support). Also, why does Protector’s Strike trigger at ranged when the vast majority of blocks only trigger in melee?

Shield: This weapon has been buffed several times and yet its still underutilized. I wonder why.

Keksmuffin.1450:

You’re kinda missinformed. Zealots Flame is good with and without radiant fire as it’s a DPS increase on it’s own. Also focus dps is good cause you can cancel and reset your auto after the 2nd strike with RoJ and it’s a DPS gain if the bounce hits your target. You’re obviously right about cleansing flame which is a skill that might aswell not exist but oh well.

I knew Zealots Flame was a DPS increase overall, but the RoJ info is helpful, thanks (I assume this is only for mace since sword AA3 is good).

i lik guards weapons atm, not a big fan of scept an ham tho

Keksmuffin.1450:

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

You’re proving my point. Longbow is less risk than melee weapons and shouldn’t outDPS them in an optimal situation which is all I was saying from the start.

These kinds of evaluations don’t make sense; you choose the best things about longbow, then proceeded to argue that it’s OP because it has these things and other weapons don’t. That’s a very cherry-picked argument. I could make the same argument that hammer is OP’ed because it gives me overlapping symbols and permanent protection as well with that kind of logic, but it’s not true.

Longbow has it’s place, but it’s not the be all end all weapon for Guardians by a long shot. I do think that it outpaces Scepter by a long shot and question why anyone might continue to use a Scepter given the LB option but if you can’t see how other weapons offer interesting and useful options that go beyond ‘range’ and ‘damage’, that’s not because the LB is OP, it’s because your assessment is too narrow.

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

You’re proving my point. Longbow is less risk than melee weapons and shouldn’t outDPS them in an optimal situation which is all I was saying from the start.

These kinds of evaluations don’t make sense; you choose the best things about longbow, then proceeded to argue that it’s OP because it has these things and other weapons don’t. That’s a very cherry-picked argument. I could make the same argument that hammer is OP’ed because it gives me overlapping symbols and permanent protection as well with that kind of logic, but it’s not true.

Longbow has it’s place, but it’s not the be all end all weapon for Guardians by a long shot. I do think that it outpaces Scepter by a long shot and question why anyone might continue to use a Scepter given the LB option but if you can’t see how other weapons offer interesting and useful options that go beyond ‘range’ and ‘damage’, that’s not because the LB is OP, it’s because your assessment is too narrow.

Exept it is the be all end all weapon for everything but GS as far as PvE goes. The only other weapons you actually need to carry arround are hammer and staff and that’s only for utility and not for fighting. :<

Also I can count the “interesting and useful” options all the other weapons give me together with one hand.

Just a few questions:

• Why are we considering Mace a defensive weapon?
• Why is Sword classified as a damage weapon?
• Why do we talk about the support melee Weapons bring, but don’t consider the support LB brings when we compare?
• The GS trait Zealous Blade is a damage increase and a support increase. Does that make GS a support weapon?
• Most complaints seem to be when individual expectations aren’t changed to meet reality. Why?

Keksmuffin.1450:

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

You’re proving my point. Longbow is less risk than melee weapons and shouldn’t outDPS them in an optimal situation which is all I was saying from the start.

These kinds of evaluations don’t make sense; you choose the best things about longbow, then proceeded to argue that it’s OP because it has these things and other weapons don’t. That’s a very cherry-picked argument. I could make the same argument that hammer is OP’ed because it gives me overlapping symbols and permanent protection as well with that kind of logic, but it’s not true.

Longbow has it’s place, but it’s not the be all end all weapon for Guardians by a long shot. I do think that it outpaces Scepter by a long shot and question why anyone might continue to use a Scepter given the LB option but if you can’t see how other weapons offer interesting and useful options that go beyond ‘range’ and ‘damage’, that’s not because the LB is OP, it’s because your assessment is too narrow.

Exept it is the be all end all weapon for everything but GS as far as PvE goes. The only other weapons you actually need to carry arround are hammer and staff and that’s only for utility and not for fighting. :<

Also I can count the “interesting and useful” options all the other weapons give me together with one hand.

Just stating something doesn’t make it true. You’re logic flawed; simply picking two elements that LB has that other weapons don’t doesn’t make it outclass all the other weapon options that Guardians have. As well, what you find ‘interesting and useful’ is subjective and does not at all qualify as a comprehensive list of weapon elements that prove your statements about LB.

If DPS and Range were the only weapon factors that mattered, you might be right and in some circumstances it is all that matters. But that’s not absolutely true, even most the time. I would admit that LB is much better than Scepter, even when considering the diversity you get with an offhand, but that’s about it. Even then, it comes at the hefty price of having to trait DH to use one.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Just a few questions:

• Why are we considering Mace a defensive weapon?
• Why is Sword classified as a damage weapon?
• Why do we talk about the support melee Weapons bring, but don’t consider the support LB brings when we compare?
• The GS trait Zealous Blade is a damage increase and a support increase. Does that make GS a support weapon?
• Most complaints seem to be when individual expectations aren’t changed to meet reality. Why?

• Mace has blocks, protection, regen, heal and the only trait that buffs mace specificly gives healing power so I would say it’s pretty clear that it was intended to be a defensive weapon.

• Sword gives none of that and the only trait that buffed sword specificly gave damage (which doesnt exist anymore) so I would say it got designed as a damage weapon.

• Dunno. Probably because vigor isn’t that big of a deal anymore, almost every guard weapons has blinds and #5 is so niche that it’s not really worth mentioning.

• How is self healing support?

• I don’t think we’re talking about our expactations only. What I said above about the weapons are more or less facts and not my own expectations.

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

You’re proving my point. Longbow is less risk than melee weapons and shouldn’t outDPS them in an optimal situation which is all I was saying from the start.

These kinds of evaluations don’t make sense; you choose the best things about longbow, then proceeded to argue that it’s OP because it has these things and other weapons don’t. That’s a very cherry-picked argument. I could make the same argument that hammer is OP’ed because it gives me overlapping symbols and permanent protection as well with that kind of logic, but it’s not true.

Longbow has it’s place, but it’s not the be all end all weapon for Guardians by a long shot. I do think that it outpaces Scepter by a long shot and question why anyone might continue to use a Scepter given the LB option but if you can’t see how other weapons offer interesting and useful options that go beyond ‘range’ and ‘damage’, that’s not because the LB is OP, it’s because your assessment is too narrow.

Exept it is the be all end all weapon for everything but GS as far as PvE goes. The only other weapons you actually need to carry arround are hammer and staff and that’s only for utility and not for fighting. :<

Also I can count the “interesting and useful” options all the other weapons give me together with one hand.

Just stating something doesn’t make it true. You’re logic flawed; simply picking two elements that LB has that other weapons don’t doesn’t make it outclass all the other weapon options that Guardians have. As well, what you find ‘interesting and useful’ is subjective and does not at all qualify as a comprehensive list of weapon elements that prove your statements about LB.

If DPS and Range were the only weapon factors that mattered, you might be right and in some circumstances it is all that matters. But that’s not absolutely true, even most the time. I would admit that LB is much better than Scepter, even when considering the diversity you get with an offhand, but that’s about it. Even then, it comes at the hefty price of having to trait DH to use one.

Considering that damage, blinds and blocks are pretty much everything the guard weapons we’re discussing provide I don’t see what else we could talk about when we compare Lbow, Mace and Sword.

Also calling traiting DH a hefty price made me laugh a bit.

I just want 3 things with Sword.

• The final Sword wave AA is replaced with a multi hit delayed attack mimicking Rev’s sword.
• Flashing Blade no longer requires a target and is now a leap finisher.
• Zeatlot’s defense now allows slow movement during the cast time, the projectiles pierce, and you block everything for 2 seconds (not just projectiles, which are destroyed, not blocked) from the front.

I would love for sword:

AA#3: Be straight line instead of spread out, but keep the three hits.
Flashing Blade: Add a burn
Zealot’s Defense: Move while casting and block instead of destory

Keksmuffin.1450:

• Mace has blocks, protection, regen, heal and the only trait that buffs mace specificly gives healing power so I would say it’s pretty clear that it was intended to be a defensive weapon.

Mace has a single block (or Prot if you fully channel it), regen, and healing. But, I wouldn’t necessarily call that defensive. It also has good coefficients and a Symbol so it’s understandable Mace damage might be higher than Sword. Mace is definitely built for sustain, but that doesn’t preclude damage

• Sword gives none of that and the only trait that buffed sword specificly gave damage (which doesnt exist anymore) so I would say it got designed as a damage weapon.

With the current traits, Sword is being pushed more for its utility. Compared to Mace it has projectile absorption over a block, and a high hit count auto compared to the slower Mace. Flashing Blade deals negligible damage but has mobility and a blind. Sword is slowly getting a new niche carved out for it.

• Dunno. Probably because vigor isn’t that big of a deal anymore, almost every guard weapons has blinds and #5 is so niche that it’s not really worth mentioning.

LB doesn’t offer near the support that the other weapons do, at least on a pve perspective. It’s understandable damage might be it’s defining feature.

• How is self healing support?

I should’ve directly said healing or even sustain. Poorly made point still stands that most people wouldn’t consider traited GS to be a sustain weapon even if it brings sustain. Similar with Mace, having sustain doesn’t make it a sustain weapon.

• I don’t think we’re talking about our expactations only. What I said above about the weapons are more or less facts and not my own expectations.

It’s not just in this thread, but throughout the forums people expect that whatever they think is the case is true. I’m probably being a little picky, but that’s what happens when you’re bored waiting for computer parts.

Daximus.8547:

I would love for sword:

AA#3: Be straight line instead of spread out, but keep the three hits.
Flashing Blade: Add a burn
Zealot’s Defense: Move while casting and block instead of destory

Your suggestions are very interesting. All of them. With it, the sword would actually be more useful, I mainly use as mobility weapon. (I use the sword only on my Hybrid Guardian).

Only afew things I would add to your suggestions: remove the projectile from AA#3 and make Flashing Blade a Leap finisher.

The projectile from AA#3 has too much terrain issues and is a big nerf aganist reflects or projectile destruction skills that the weapon doesn’t really needs. The AA is melee, shouldn’t have projectiles.

Keksmuffin.1450:

Indure.5410:

Our weapons are fine. Longbow should out damage a mace, since the mace is largely a defensive weapon (although it still outputs respectable damage). The sword is a fine weapon that specializes in mobility, it just falls short in damage because it doesn’t have a nice damage pairing offhand to fill in its weaknesses. If torch was rebuilt to provide a strong DPS increase in the off hand slot then both mace and sword would see a lot more play.

…what…

Torch and Focus are really nice strong DPS offhands (in PvE) so what the hell are you talking about? xd

Also sword doesn’t really provide that great mobility. If it would be warrior sword we’re talking about which is basicly a utility weapon maybe I would agree with you but guard sword utility is tiny, especially in PvE where you don’t use the meh projectile defense or the port at all, apart from skips.

condi berserker here!

just chiming in to let you know that warrior sword is no longer a “utility weapon” as, paired with torch and in viper/sin gear, (pve) I am auto attacking for 900-2000, 1000-4000 bleeds and 5-12k burning per second.

The sword shall rise!!!!

Azure.8670:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Indure.5410:

Our weapons are fine. Longbow should out damage a mace, since the mace is largely a defensive weapon (although it still outputs respectable damage). The sword is a fine weapon that specializes in mobility, it just falls short in damage because it doesn’t have a nice damage pairing offhand to fill in its weaknesses. If torch was rebuilt to provide a strong DPS increase in the off hand slot then both mace and sword would see a lot more play.

…what…

Torch and Focus are really nice strong DPS offhands (in PvE) so what the hell are you talking about? xd

Also sword doesn’t really provide that great mobility. If it would be warrior sword we’re talking about which is basicly a utility weapon maybe I would agree with you but guard sword utility is tiny, especially in PvE where you don’t use the meh projectile defense or the port at all, apart from skips.

condi berserker here!

just chiming in to let you know that warrior sword is no longer a “utility weapon” as, paired with torch and in viper/sin gear, (pve) I am auto attacking for 900-2000, 1000-4000 bleeds and 5-12k burning per second.

The sword shall rise!!!!

Well the only thing condi berserker is better at than phalanx strength berserker is utility though. At least as far as I know the one thing it’s really good at is spamming imobs on the big adds on gorseval which is a utility thing if you ask me.

I don’t get this “ranged dps has to be less than melee dps” mentality, especially when the reality of the situation in GW2 for quite some time now has not reflected this mentality.

Ranger longbow has been their highest dps weapon for a while. Staff is the highest dps weapon for elemetalists and frost bows offered the highest burst dps out of any conjured weapon (though it has been nerfed). Guardian scepter has always done more damage than guardian’s other 1-handed melee options (sword or mace) and Engineer’s highest dps weapon is also range as far as I know (grenades).

Thaddeus.4891:

Arutha.9874:

Yes longbow cannot be used from range for an optimal rotation so it is not doing optimal dps from range with “less risk” it doesn’t have better dps than melee options.

True, but Longbow still have 3 advantages.

1) 50% of the time I can be outside the range of any melee mobs, without sacrificing any dps, I’ll take less damage.

2) If things go bad or if the boss have a big damage AoE under him (Fractal Shaman three lava front for exemple). You have 50% chance to be in longbow and be able range him, which is better dps, than a melee only character that just need to get out of there for some second.

3) If you end up under too much pressure, you can go in range and stay there while you recuperate, which is a better solution than to stay in melee and die or get outside the boss range and do zero dps.

The point is, Longbow give you a bit more moving room for some situation that melee weapon just don’t give you. GS + Longow shouldn’t be completly nerf, just maybe 5% less dps than a GS + Mace/Torch build. But we are talking about micro balancing tbh. It’s not a big problem in reality, sword is much more of an issue.

I’d like to bring up the fact that your maths is wrong, 50% of the time you can be out of range with no DPS loss is wrong. Leaping further with GS takes longer and the margin between the two sets is so tiny that that extra time you spend leaping in and back peddling (if you can time it in between TS) you will probably drop below other weapons.

Similarly you say Mace would have to run out of AoE but in 90% of the cases it could block or ignore and out heal while GS/LB would need to run because likely it is too close anyway and can’t do the back peddling TS dance to keep up DPS. And zero sustain.

In reality most of you just don’t like that longbow is pretty much as effective in melee range as it is at long range and hence can be considered for meta comps. And to that I say play a different class or different game because that is what weapons do in GW2 and always have, eg. Ele staff, Engi grenades, Mesmer GS and pretty much any other class.

Phoenix the One.4071:

Well at least u got acended and legendary weapons.

That was whole point actually.He uploaded SS so other people can see what he got.

He could easily say what he wanted,without showing 10 k gold worth items.

all weapons should have the same dps so you could choose them by how you feel about them not by their damage, but thats not the case

what are you playing
i play Guardian GS and longbow that’s funny i do way more damage with GS then i do with longbow

Keksmuffin.1450:

Azure.8670:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Indure.5410:

Our weapons are fine. Longbow should out damage a mace, since the mace is largely a defensive weapon (although it still outputs respectable damage). The sword is a fine weapon that specializes in mobility, it just falls short in damage because it doesn’t have a nice damage pairing offhand to fill in its weaknesses. If torch was rebuilt to provide a strong DPS increase in the off hand slot then both mace and sword would see a lot more play.

…what…

Torch and Focus are really nice strong DPS offhands (in PvE) so what the hell are you talking about? xd

Also sword doesn’t really provide that great mobility. If it would be warrior sword we’re talking about which is basicly a utility weapon maybe I would agree with you but guard sword utility is tiny, especially in PvE where you don’t use the meh projectile defense or the port at all, apart from skips.

condi berserker here!

just chiming in to let you know that warrior sword is no longer a “utility weapon” as, paired with torch and in viper/sin gear, (pve) I am auto attacking for 900-2000, 1000-4000 bleeds and 5-12k burning per second.

The sword shall rise!!!!

Well the only thing condi berserker is better at than phalanx strength berserker is utility though. At least as far as I know the one thing it’s really good at is spamming imobs on the big adds on gorseval which is a utility thing if you ask me.

condi berserkers is outright more dps but stacks no might

Keksmuffin.1450:

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

You’re proving my point. Longbow is less risk than melee weapons and shouldn’t outDPS them in an optimal situation which is all I was saying from the start.

These kinds of evaluations don’t make sense; you choose the best things about longbow, then proceeded to argue that it’s OP because it has these things and other weapons don’t. That’s a very cherry-picked argument. I could make the same argument that hammer is OP’ed because it gives me overlapping symbols and permanent protection as well with that kind of logic, but it’s not true.

Longbow has it’s place, but it’s not the be all end all weapon for Guardians by a long shot. I do think that it outpaces Scepter by a long shot and question why anyone might continue to use a Scepter given the LB option but if you can’t see how other weapons offer interesting and useful options that go beyond ‘range’ and ‘damage’, that’s not because the LB is OP, it’s because your assessment is too narrow.

Exept it is the be all end all weapon for everything but GS as far as PvE goes. The only other weapons you actually need to carry arround are hammer and staff and that’s only for utility and not for fighting. :<

Also I can count the “interesting and useful” options all the other weapons give me together with one hand.

Just stating something doesn’t make it true. You’re logic flawed; simply picking two elements that LB has that other weapons don’t doesn’t make it outclass all the other weapon options that Guardians have. As well, what you find ‘interesting and useful’ is subjective and does not at all qualify as a comprehensive list of weapon elements that prove your statements about LB.

If DPS and Range were the only weapon factors that mattered, you might be right and in some circumstances it is all that matters. But that’s not absolutely true, even most the time. I would admit that LB is much better than Scepter, even when considering the diversity you get with an offhand, but that’s about it. Even then, it comes at the hefty price of having to trait DH to use one.

Considering that damage, blinds and blocks are pretty much everything the guard weapons we’re discussing provide I don’t see what else we could talk about when we compare Lbow, Mace and Sword.

Also calling traiting DH a hefty price made me laugh a bit.

Of course you don’t, because if you had a less narrow perspective, you would realize all the factors you aren’t considering, even if you think they aren’t relevant or significant. Frankly, just having the utility of different off hands is a significant factor for some people and LB has not got that flexibility at all.

I could spend much time going through a comprehensive list of factors you’re not willing to discuss, but I don’t see the point since you’ve already decided that LB is THE Guardian weapon because of range + damage.

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Obtena.7952:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Pregnantman on that. Longbow is a quality of life. Yes you want to keep yourself without a 600-300 range to keep the party buffs, but it’s still more room to move than with mace. It also give you more freedom in hard pressure situation. With Longbow I can back off a bit when I’m very low hp and still do some decent dps, while with Mace, If I need to back into a more secure zone, my dps drop. That’s risk vs reward balance.

If I’m using Longbow + GS I have more room for error because I can get into range if I need to and I can move outside of most boss melee attack about half the time. With those advantage, we should do less dps or at least equal dps to mace because Mace have some defensive abilities that Longbow doesn’t (I’m talking about the heal). But, true enough Longbow can give vigor to your party, so maybe longbow should really have a bit less dps than Mace.

Sword was just screwed over with the specialization patch. The Symbol of Avengers addition + removal of the sword dps trait really made the difference. With Longbow and Mace already in competition, I don’t think that trying to put Sword back into a direct damage dps role is a good idea. I would prefer to make it more similar to warrior sword as a Condi + Mobility package. Whatever they choose to do with sword, they need to find it a role and improve in that direction because right now it’s meh.

You’re proving my point. Longbow is less risk than melee weapons and shouldn’t outDPS them in an optimal situation which is all I was saying from the start.

These kinds of evaluations don’t make sense; you choose the best things about longbow, then proceeded to argue that it’s OP because it has these things and other weapons don’t. That’s a very cherry-picked argument. I could make the same argument that hammer is OP’ed because it gives me overlapping symbols and permanent protection as well with that kind of logic, but it’s not true.

Longbow has it’s place, but it’s not the be all end all weapon for Guardians by a long shot. I do think that it outpaces Scepter by a long shot and question why anyone might continue to use a Scepter given the LB option but if you can’t see how other weapons offer interesting and useful options that go beyond ‘range’ and ‘damage’, that’s not because the LB is OP, it’s because your assessment is too narrow.

Exept it is the be all end all weapon for everything but GS as far as PvE goes. The only other weapons you actually need to carry arround are hammer and staff and that’s only for utility and not for fighting. :<

Also I can count the “interesting and useful” options all the other weapons give me together with one hand.

Just stating something doesn’t make it true. You’re logic flawed; simply picking two elements that LB has that other weapons don’t doesn’t make it outclass all the other weapon options that Guardians have. As well, what you find ‘interesting and useful’ is subjective and does not at all qualify as a comprehensive list of weapon elements that prove your statements about LB.

If DPS and Range were the only weapon factors that mattered, you might be right and in some circumstances it is all that matters. But that’s not absolutely true, even most the time. I would admit that LB is much better than Scepter, even when considering the diversity you get with an offhand, but that’s about it. Even then, it comes at the hefty price of having to trait DH to use one.

Considering that damage, blinds and blocks are pretty much everything the guard weapons we’re discussing provide I don’t see what else we could talk about when we compare Lbow, Mace and Sword.

Also calling traiting DH a hefty price made me laugh a bit.

Of course you don’t, because if you had a less narrow perspective, you would realize all the factors you aren’t considering, even if you think they aren’t relevant or significant. Frankly, just having the utility of different off hands is a significant factor for some people and LB has not got that flexibility at all.

I could spend much time going through a comprehensive list of factors you’re not willing to discuss, but I don’t see the point since you’ve already decided that LB is THE Guardian weapon because of range + damage.

No, go ahead. Tell me specific PvE encounters where you would use something else than GS+Lbow.

Keksmuffin.1450:

No, go ahead. Tell me specific PvE encounters where you would use something else than GS+Lbow.

Vale Guardian and Sabetha. Probably fractal 75+ if they Anet had not nerf their dmg, but instead increase it over the level. Hammer for protection is kind of powerful in fight that put too much pressure on you for your active defense.

A condi Scepter/Torch + GS DH have pretty much the exact dps of a GS + Lbow DH.

Thaddeus.4891:

Keksmuffin.1450:

No, go ahead. Tell me specific PvE encounters where you would use something else than GS+Lbow.

Vale Guardian and Sabetha. Probably fractal 75+ if they Anet had not nerf their dmg, but instead increase it over the level. Hammer for protection is kind of powerful in fight that put too much pressure on you for your active defense.

A condi Scepter/Torch + GS DH have pretty much the exact dps of a GS + Lbow DH.

Hammer makes stuff easier, it’s not more optimal. I killed both of those bosses without any hammer guards.

Don’t know about that condi thing. Can you provide actual numbers? Last time I checked condi had to sacrafice all its utility for dps to come close to zerker and was thus considered inferior.

Keksmuffin.1450:

Hammer makes stuff easier, it’s not more optimal. I killed both of those bosses without any hammer guards.

Don’t know about that condi thing. Can you provide actual numbers? Last time I checked condi had to sacrafice all its utility for dps to come close to zerker and was thus considered inferior.

Well first it depend on how you describe optimal. Do you know what is most optimal in any of the three boss of the raid? If so tell me because so far I saw a lot of different composition do a really great job. How do we define the optimal setup? The group that go the faster? Does the raid are old enough to be sure we won’t see faster setup in the future? No so long ago, Snow Crow killed Gorseval in a bit more than 3-4min.

I don’t like using this exemple since it feel like I’m saying that DNT is who decide what is most optimal, but they killed the Vale with a hammer DH with 2:39sec left and since then they changed the build of their DH to be more offensive and I don’t know their new time. Does someone was able to do better than without a Hammer DH? Maybe, even probably. But what then, If someone kill the Vale Guardian without a Hammer DH with 1 more second left on the timer it won’t be consider optimal anymore, and if 1 week later someone else kill the guardian even faster by 1-2 second but with a Hammer DH, then it will be optimal again? I think it’s pretty narrow minded don’t you think?

DNT also killed Sabetha with 2 DH Hammer and 1:36 left on the timer. Again does a ground killed Sabetha with less time and no DH Hammer? Maybe. Does that mean that DH is not and optimal choice in those fight? I’m not sure.

For the condition, it was my opinion before HoT, but DH changed a little that. I don’t play condi guardian and I don’t plan on using it, but according to Obal, the difference in dps is pretty slim. A condi DH with 3 dps utility is about the same as a zerker DH with 2 dps utility. But a DH zerker with 1 dps utility is equal to a condi DH with 1 dps utility. For me, Zerker DH is more fun, more reliable and you always have 1 slot of a support utility so I prefer it. But in view of the difference in dps, both build seem pretty equal to me.

Thaddeus.4891:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Hammer makes stuff easier, it’s not more optimal. I killed both of those bosses without any hammer guards.

Don’t know about that condi thing. Can you provide actual numbers? Last time I checked condi had to sacrafice all its utility for dps to come close to zerker and was thus considered inferior.

Well first it depend on how you describe optimal. Do you know what is most optimal in any of the three boss of the raid? If so tell me because so far I saw a lot of different composition do a really great job. How do we define the optimal setup? The group that go the faster? Does the raid are old enough to be sure we won’t see faster setup in the future? No so long ago, Snow Crow killed Gorseval in a bit more than 3-4min.

I don’t like using this exemple since it feel like I’m saying that DNT is who decide what is most optimal, but they killed the Vale with a hammer DH with 2:39sec left and since then they changed the build of their DH to be more offensive and I don’t know their new time. Does someone was able to do better than without a Hammer DH? Maybe, even probably. But what then, If someone kill the Vale Guardian without a Hammer DH with 1 more second left on the timer it won’t be consider optimal anymore, and if 1 week later someone else kill the guardian even faster by 1-2 second but with a Hammer DH, then it will be optimal again? I think it’s pretty narrow minded don’t you think?

DNT also killed Sabetha with 2 DH Hammer and 1:36 left on the timer. Again does a ground killed Sabetha with less time and no DH Hammer? Maybe. Does that mean that DH is not and optimal choice in those fight? I’m not sure.

For the condition, it was my opinion before HoT, but DH changed a little that. I don’t play condi guardian and I don’t plan on using it, but according to Obal, the difference in dps is pretty slim. A condi DH with 3 dps utility is about the same as a zerker DH with 2 dps utility. But a DH zerker with 1 dps utility is equal to a condi DH with 1 dps utility. For me, Zerker DH is more fun, more reliable and you always have 1 slot of a support utility so I prefer it. But in view of the difference in dps, both build seem pretty equal to me.

Fair enough. You’re right, we can’t really say what’s optimal yet. On the other hand you probably shouldn’t say hammer is better in these fights either.

Keksmuffin.1450:

Fair enough. You’re right, we can’t really say what’s optimal yet. On the other hand you probably shouldn’t say hammer is better in these fights either.

Well, your question was what encounter where you should use something else than GS + Lbow. We can talk about semantic, should I have specified that some place you CAN use hammer and not SHOULD. In the end I never said that Hammer is better than GS + Lbow, just that there is place where Hammer is a good choice, not a suboptimal choice. TBH it’s not like Hammer was also SO Far behind the meta. It was always around 10% behind the best dps build.

Personnally, there is a point where two build are close enough in term of DPS that I really don’t a kitten about which one is the best in which situation. If several build are around 5-10% of each other, I pretty much put then on the same level. I feel that the community put build into two categeries. The most optimal dps build and everything else. I don’t mind a Meta, but there is always 3-4 very very good build next to it that seem to be view as garbage by the community. They are suboptimal so they are not worth anything. I find it sad.

Thaddeus.4891:

They are suboptimal so they are not worth anything. I find it sad.

Even then calling a 5% deviation suboptimalis too harsh, especially if the other option offers something else like boons, CC or tank.

So do you think Anet will buff all the other weapons to the degree of LB, or they’d just nerf the LB damage?

Think about it. The answer is rather obvious yknow.