Guild Wars 2

Im a dedicated Guardian (my only character i feel like playing at all, and im ok with that.) and as i’ve been going through this game learning about other classes, their tricks, maneuvers, and rotations. Theres something that been bothering me.

For all the CC, Dmg mitigation, and other attacks of the sort that we have. Why are our cooldowns so long? I really dont see how OP a sanctuary, shield bubbles, etc etc could be with a better cooldowns. But yet thieves can restealth every couple seconds along with mesmers, and stealth is basically the best defensive tactic since that solves the problem of being sneaky while with the bubble its basically like “HEY LOOK OVER HERE”

Idk. As a front line melee only type profession, we’re always on cooldown and seems like our defensive or supportive moves are more about prolonging the inevitable death then actually doing something to help you out of it.

Dont get me wrong i love the guardian and wont be changing to another class its just it always seems that after a couple seconds of fighting, popping your cooldowns basically means that you have to rely on your weapon only and you’ll be waiting on cooldowns trying to survive long enough and avoid focus fire. One thing thats bad about guardians is that we’re “flashy” and easily swarmed

I love guardians but im coming to realize that they’re a “Jack of All Trades and Master of None” sort of profession that can be out matched by another in terms of “purpose on the battlefield”. I dont really play support either, dont use consecrations, spirit weapons, or anything like that and i doubt i’ll ever want to, thinking i’ll be running away from the front line seconds after i just ran in popping those cooldowns just to avoid the focus fire that most likely imminent after popping things like wall of reflect, sanctuary, etc etc.

My 2 cents, interested in hear your opinions

Reducing the cooldowns would make them overpowered. Sorry, but i cannot agree with this statement, and I’m a dedicated guardian as well.

We are “flashy”. We are “easily swarmed”.

I think we are perfect just the way we are, the only thing I would like to have changed, is zealots defense on a sword should be mobile. We should be able to move while doing it.

Abilities meant to be used as actions have short cooldowns because they are meant to be used.
Abilities meant to be used as reactions have long cooldowns so they can only be used at the opportune moment.

A warrior can cripple you all she wants, and most of the time it doesn’t make a big difference. When you really need mobility, you remove the condition and do your thing—wasting a condition removal skill on each cripple effect is wasteful and the cooldowns are as high as they are to discourage that.

Shorter cooldowns allow the negation of too many actions, especially in a 1v1 situation.

Regarding Zealot’s Defense, I’d rather it function more like Magnetic Wave than simply permit mobility.

guardian got traits to reduce cooldown for singets, shouts and meditation
as well you can make consacration skill instant cast
with 30 points on virtues and some runes with boon duration you can almost keep some buffs like protection and retailation up non stop
i belive this is 1 of the reason, and cooldown looks fine for defensive shouts, stand your ground , hold the line 24 seconds

i agree with OP, our class have lost his mean, we arent real defenders(not for an action game concept), we dont do much damage (o maybe i have to say that some classes do too much damage), ok we heal a lot anche we can “reflect” damage, but What i see now, is a class like the WOW holy paladin, tough for sure, but unbalanced as hell.

Shouts dont do dmg. Consecrations are stationary as easily noitced/countered/waited through. And stacking all CD reduction is bad unless ur primarily focusing on something like meditations or shouts. Atleast i wouldnt run a signet with a meditation and consecration on my utilites. Too spread out for me.

@ Kashien – How would we be overpowered in the boost to our defensive ability through a cd reduction? When it doesnt increase dmg and really only increases dmg mitigation. I dont see how spike dmg can be so easily turned out by other classes in such easy/fast cooldowns and our defensive moves are limited to once a min or once every 2. I work so hard to just target and get a couple good hits on a thief dealing through their stealth, or fighting through mesmer illusions to find the real one when hes stealths and ports away, is it OP if they had a hard time hitting us as well?

@Fildy – I agree, but the thing is the abilites we use as reactions are also getting us killed lol. Everytime i see a sanctuary pop on another guardian in a fight, i see 3-5 enemies look at the and count down the seconds till the bubble falls so they can all jump in at once. Things like the shield bubble and or AoE pushes should be more available to us i think. We’re the profession with the least conditions, longest cooldowns. And everytime time someone brings up 1v1 they say the games not about that, and they when they’re talking about zerg v zerg or group v group they reference to 1v1s like it matters. Is this game a 1v1 balanced game or are other professions suppose to be 1v1 focused better then others? A warrior can cripple/range too. If they can cripple “all she wants” whats to stop her taking the quick dmg i might deal, apply cripple yet again after, waiting through my projectile reflect, and proceed to rifle through us.

If your statement is true then Guardian is already at a disadvantage being a “reactionary” profession while others would be “active” professions. I just think we should be able to mitigate the dmg. Thieves are designed to be slippery, hard to catch, and elusive. Guardians are suppose to protect and hold front line while defend your allies. Just doesn’t feel like we “Guard” as much as we Absorb. Feel likes a meat shield.

Btw i wasn’t talking about condition removal as much as “shielding” effects. But unless your rocking Purity, Signet Heal, Shout condition removal, and CoP all at once your condition removal isnt all that much better then some of the other classes out there.

@ Rayya – Shouts dont “protect you” thats the boon side of things. I see shouts as facilitators to group activites. Strike-Teams, small raids, etc. But even a hold the line wont protect your group for very long in the middle of a fight. Which is why one would think to turn to things like sanctuary and WoR and bubble bombing to provide dmg mitigation but its easily spotted, avoided, destroyed, or patiently waited through until the proper time allows them to attack you with minimal risk to themselves.

Maybe it would be OP idk. i have a problem with Defense/Armor/Toughness in this game compared to Power/Crit

Just my thoughts, im not a very support focused guardian. i run meds and roam around for 1v1s and i dont think we’re a “weak profession” i just think that the Signature Abilities that define our profession are a little… laughable by the enemies. Hence why i run AoE Bomb type guardian for small strike team ops and supply camp harassment.

On a side note – Yes Zealots Defense needs better “auto aiming” since this is the first ranged attack that can miss the enemy whos just sidestepping. Idk about full movement but definitely needs to be looked at.

I’ve often wished my cooldowns were short as well, but I’m not naive… We would become extremely unbalanced, or the abilities we all love so much would be nerfed to mediocrity. If you want spammy then you should get ability cooldown reduction and invest 15 points into Radiance and spam F1 every chance you get.

AbsintheMinded.

Personally, i am spammy at my current build. As of right now the way i play, i have no problems, but im still playing for DPS which isnt what our class is based around (atleast not to the description of the Devs). My point is that the defensive techniques we have dont actually accomplish a whole lot in terms of helping us kill or really survive an enemy. (Unless ur bubble pushing them off cliffs or something)

Im not saying they should reduce all cooldowns and make us all instant cast. Im saying the the abilities that define our profession are extremely long and usually not worth picking up because the time inbetween casting them on cooldown leaves us extremely vurnerable as a “defensive profession”

I find the best defense is a good offense. You’ll end up saving yourself more dmg, by dealing it out faster, scaring your enemy, and causing him to break-off the attack rather then wait through your bubbles knowing hes now got a full 3min to take you down before you come up with another 5 sec of no dmg. Thieves can get 5 sec of no dmg any time they want by stealthing and porting away to reset hp or just plain run. Do you see how that is an overall more effective defense then a 5sec bubble? The enemy you take down to 50% in less then 5sec isnt going to stay around for another 10sec to see whatelse you can do. But the profession that takes 20sec to get 50% that has to stop, bubble, and wait allows the other profession to much “thinking/strat” time. Even then another major problem is how our abilities force us into a “stationary fight”.

We have to stay inside the bubble, Behind the wall, within the circle. As a class with no range, this makes things even harder on us.

I told you precisely how to increase damage, and that’s just one little tiny way. I run 0/15/30/20/5. I burn and AoE blind non-stop, I distribute Might like McDonald’s does Happy Meals, I get healed for every boon put on every ally… Yeah sure I’m not a glass cannon, but right here is a build that can survive almost any onslaught and destroy mobs. Beyond that, if you want a build that doesn’t resemble a guardian in any way, then you are playing the wrong class.

Lol again you misunderstand me.

Im not questioning the DPS of the profession for the last time… yes we can burn and apply blind and yes everyone loves empowering might. Yes we can be fast, the longest CD i use is 48sec. Im not doing this because “ZOMG I NEED HELP PLAYING MY PROFESSION” i found a perfectly nice way to play my profession and im fine with it.

Im questioning the design our or “signature abilities” when i think signature abilites i think of symbols, WoR, Sanctuary, shield bubble, THE BLUE STUFF, in particular the defensive ones and actually how “defensive” they are… for the last time.

Yes, i bet your quite the beast. And you can pwn anything. But i doubt your using things like WoR or Sanctuary, because you just proved my point that the best defense is a good offense….

Let me ask you, what utilities are you running?

Edit: Please people, i know i can be quite the long-winded typer and it usually comes out as a scary wall of text but there are REASONS for it. This thread is not a whine, its is not a plea for anet, it is a discuss behind the theory and actually utility of our defense/defensive maneuvers

Getting jumped after Sanctuary ends does suck, but the key point is that your opponents had to wait through it—it was your team’s responsibility to use that time to gain an advantage. The support from a guardian won’t turn the tide of battle on its own, it relies on the actions of other players to seize the opportunity it creates.

I cited 1v1 as an extreme case where a guardian that can counter abilities as fast as they can be activated is clearly overpowered. I look at 1v1 as an edge case that must be considered, but not used as the baseline for balance.

I used a warrior’s cripple as an example of a control ability that can be used against us fairly readily. Our condition removal isn’t anything too extraordinary, but the point I had wanted to illustrate was that we don’t need to react to every action taken against us. It is when that cripple/immobilize/stun lands as the big red rings appear around your feet that it matters—this is when you use your abilities, not when you’re not in danger. The guardian’s strength is that our protective abilities affect our allies, not just us, so when any of our allies is in trouble, we probably have a skill to help them out of it.

Because I run with a group, I don’t see my cooldowns as being prohibitively long. I feel they are generally well balanced. If you run solo, yeah, I can see you feeling as if they are too long. I wouldn’t mind seeing cooldowns tied to the number of allies affected or something where a middle ground could be found, but even when I run solo, I don’t feel as if I’m missing anything—my skills as a guardian are not a rotation, they are a collection of situational ‘oh kitten’ skills.

Your tone is condescending, but I’ll simply ignore it because I came in here to comment on the subject and not start a flame war.

For general PvE I use “Retreat” “SYG” and JI.
For dungeons and WvW I switch around utilities some, WoR is good, Hallowed Ground is situational, “SY!” can be a game changer.

Please lose the snide, sarcastic tone. It serves you no purpose. All of our abilities are our signature abilities, that’s how I look at it.

I didnt mean to be condensding towards you as much as i was in a general state of frustration due to the fact that i wasnt being heard properly. You’ll often run into people who read the first sentence and skip through a paragraphing thinking they already know everything that i was about to explain and comment as if they already know the answer.

I apologize if i upset you and or anyone else.

As far as your utility choice, in PvE that makes alot of sense. AH + Boons = Uptime.

SY and SYG are arguably the best shouts in the best shouts in the game, so your right in your choice.

unfortunately with warriors also having shouts im consistently wondering how many of our moves are “Unique” to our profession. Things like Symbols, Walls, Bubbles, are those that i found to be the “Unique” amongst the different professions, but also the least used moves through out our own profession.

I just find that strange to see that the moves that i find “unique” are also the moves that trap us and get us into pressure points that often leave us defenseless and dead.

Edit: @Fildy – Thank you for that response! Explained perfectly as well! I do see a increase of utility with these moves after guardian is in a group situation. Although the attention it brings from the enemy you’re fighting usually makes you the next target of your all your allies. Im starting to tie in your Reactionary Theory into it with a group mentality in mind.

Fildy, your point of view is right, but its not all, not all of us have the same playstile, but i think all guardians player want to use a class that can alternate defense, offense and support, with different %.
now looking the class, if you run with group is ok: you buff, you heal, you can handle your long cd (but a shout\stance warrion can do the same, and even better)

but if you are running alone (ok its a mmorpg and team play is a core mechaninc, but can happend):

Our wards, have a long CD and the enemy can pass trought it most of the time, so they are not a real costriction. (staff 5 and hammer 5 excluded)
We cant really control the enemy on melee range due to lack of slow effects, so he can engage us from distance easily (and when you have burn your wall of reflection, you are uncovered)we have some chain on 2 weapons, but they dont last too much or are easily avoidable like the hammer chain.
And our active block options rely on few skill: shelter, shield of wrath, renewed justice(is not a block, but they cant damage us anyway), protector strike… and VoC activation. (i dont remember if we have others block skill)

For the rotation thing, i dont use a rotation too, but is a bit obvious that if you run alone or with random groups (and the random group, tend to abbadon you too much times if you fall), you tend to use skill that you can rely on often, like shouts.

edit:
our greatest problem anyway are the weapons, we have not too much choice, and, they are too unbalanced, our weapons rely on direct damage but our class dont do much of it.
for my vision of guardian, i prefer that our weapons have their autoattack swing or death ray, but then the other 2\4 skills must have more simbols\ward\block\slow conditions (more control from our weapons) now the only 2 weapons that fit a bit my vision are hammer and mace, and theese are the 2 weapons im using recently.(hammer scepter of WvW, mace is not good for it)

You compared Guarian utilities to Thief weapon mechanics. All professions, even Thieves rely on cooldowns for their utilities. They can only spam their skills so many times before they’re outa initiative. After that, they’re blown. Guardian probably have the best overall set of utilities in GW2 and (potentially) longer CDs are the price we pay to have a lot of flavorful, useful skills. Also, we have 3 virtues that can be traited to have extremely fast CDs that we can deal dmg, heal, and mitigate with. Party wide. I’m never lacking for buttons to push.

I compared the thieves defensive mechanic as well as the thieves easy of use using that defensive mechanic.

It terms of defense, they are actually more “well off” then us. Simply because they cant be seen or targeted and thus un-hittable (unless through luck/incompetent thief play.) I do believe any good thief shouldnt have trouble running/getting away while still being alive. Unfortunately it isnt the same for us, even tho we are “defensive” it only seeks to prolong the moment before we are attacked and downed because we’re always seen and in fact very visible and easy to notice.

im sorry but i just dont agree with you Seras. I think we do have really good utilities, but most of them are similar and or shared with other professions. Shouts, Boon Generation, Teleports. The thing is the ones we have that are unique dont really serve us all that well.

Sanctuary – Makes you immobile, standing in a radius no bigger then a common AoE. Enemies only have to plant them at your feet all around you and wait till the bubble comes down till you explode from standing on what is essentially a bomb. Easy target for elementalist AoE and or Necro AoE.

WoR – limits the area your allowed to move around. Cant increase distance to close range distance to melee distance because if u move past/through WoR then you’ve successfully wasted it. Rangers, Engis, and Warriors need only backstep to increase distance between us and wait for the wall to come down. They even get a 8 sec breather to regain their own cooldowns.

These moves are prolonging the time we take to die, not helping us avoid death. On top of that, each second we use to “protect” ourselves is also an advantage to the enemy. They either can move around, regen hp, and also get all the time you do recieve to regain CDs which are usually on lower CD anways.

Our defensive moves seem to instill a sense of suicide. We’ve got to be on the front line, absorbing the dmg, waiting for allies to dps down enemies, hoping we might get to stay alive till the end of it or have to retreat to reset and wait for 3min and 1min CDs to come back to be to provide that support. Even then if your trying to play that kind of guardian. Your usually put in a lot of risk, which usually means you are probably dying somewhat often (even a 3.3k armor 21khp Retaliation guardian cant stand up against focus fire on the front line) and then that only makes me think “great the unique aspects of my profession are causing me to consistently put myself on the line and risking repair bills/walk backs”

Im sorry but i truly believe that a “Defensive” Guardian is only inviting a stress onto himself coupled with gold sink through repairs because we cant deal the dmg we’d need while supporting. And lets face it in WvW sometimes even in the middle of your own zerg you can feel “Alone”. I’ve seen plenty of guardians left out in the cold in their bubbles while their allies use the opportunity to run and the enemies stay at the guardian to wait out the bubble.

Seras.5702:

You compared Guarian utilities to Thief weapon mechanics. All professions, even Thieves rely on cooldowns for their utilities.

most of the thief stretegy attacks rely on autoattack, so they disengage\stealth skill can be used a lot of time.

Wizardauz.3761:

I compared the thieves defensive mechanic as well as the thieves easy of use using that defensive mechanic.

It terms of defense, they are actually more “well off” then us. Simply because they cant be seen or targeted and thus un-hittable (unless through luck/incompetent thief play.) I do believe any good thief shouldnt have trouble running/getting away while still being alive. Unfortunately it isnt the same for us, even tho we are “defensive” it only seeks to prolong the moment before we are attacked and downed because we’re always seen and in fact very visible and easy to notice.

im sorry but i just dont agree with you Seras. I think we do have really good utilities, but most of them are similar and or shared with other professions. Shouts, Boon Generation, Teleports. The thing is the ones we have that are unique dont really serve us all that well.

Sanctuary – Makes you immobile, standing in a radius no bigger then a common AoE. Enemies only have to plant them at your feet all around you and wait till the bubble comes down till you explode from standing on what is essentially a bomb. Easy target for elementalist AoE and or Necro AoE.

WoR – limits the area your allowed to move around. Cant increase distance to close range distance to melee distance because if u move past/through WoR then you’ve successfully wasted it. Rangers, Engis, and Warriors need only backstep to increase distance between us and wait for the wall to come down. They even get a 8 sec breather to regain their own cooldowns.

These moves are prolonging the time we take to die, not helping us avoid death. On top of that, each second we use to “protect” ourselves is also an advantage to the enemy. They either can move around, regen hp, and also get all the time you do recieve to regain CDs which are usually on lower CD anways.

Our defensive moves seem to instill a sense of suicide. We’ve got to be on the front line, absorbing the dmg, waiting for allies to dps down enemies, hoping we might get to stay alive till the end of it or have to retreat to reset and wait for 3min and 1min CDs to come back to be to provide that support. Even then if your trying to play that kind of guardian. Your usually put in a lot of risk, which usually means you are probably dying somewhat often (even a 3.3k armor 21khp Retaliation guardian cant stand up against focus fire on the front line) and then that only makes me think “great the unique aspects of my profession are causing me to consistently put myself on the line and risking repair bills/walk backs”

Im sorry but i truly believe that a “Defensive” Guardian is only inviting a stress onto himself coupled with gold sink through repairs because we cant deal the dmg we’d need while supporting. And lets face it in WvW sometimes even in the middle of your own zerg you can feel “Alone”. I’ve seen plenty of guardians left out in the cold in their bubbles while their allies use the opportunity to run and the enemies stay at the guardian to wait out the bubble.

i like you way of thinking, i beleve that all that can protect something, can constrict some other think, so if i can use a wall to defend myself, i can use it too for change the enemy move and take advantage, offensively or defensively. (depend player on playstyle)

ID like to see the unique mechanic of guardians used in more way

-Big blue bouble used like protective Dome, or Prison for an enemy
-Walls, to reflect damage, or negate movement in one direction
-Simbols used for buff allies , or incapacitate enemies
-More block, like a virtue of courage that grant some more hp (giust 500 more) but i can use it for an active aegis with a lower cooldown.(an not 90 sec cd, but 15\20 sec)

I like the way you think too Ganzo, but i think a sanctuary prison on the enemy every 3 min is still rough. You would be wasting a utility for a skill thats only castable once every 3 min. Which again means your primarly relying on weapon skills which are pretty much only melee (except for the magical tennis racket) Not to mention we already have it on a lower CD with the hammer.

Even our elites are among the longest for each class. And although some people really like the “Tomes” i find them pretty laughable that not only is it a 3min wait but also that we pull out a boook and use it as a weapon… what? since when were Books so power?! But thats just me. Even the other book is a bit of pain. Its awesome we get a full heal but usually dont see it very much in WvW or being very viable in any place outside of a bunker guardian in tPvP. And renewed focus is a crap version of Endure Pain that gives us back our virtues… whooopie…. I dont use elite skills as a guardian. Like… at all. Never not once.

I’d almost wager i could argue that Smite Condition is an overall better/more defensively oriented skill than Sanctuary when traited.

- Smite Condition -

• 20 Base CD (16sec when traited)
• Heals for over 2k+ when traited
• AoE Burst dmg (Mine can crit up too 4k)
• Instant, No Cast Time.
• Can be used while Mobile

- Sanctuary -

• Cast Time
• Heals (Less then 2k)
• 120 Second CD (96 Seconds when Traited)
• Immune to dmg for 5 sec.
• Immobile

Sorry if i seem condesending or anything, i just find it to be a big issue with me when taking this game seriously looking at how the Devs made dmg vs defense. I know Smite Condition is nothing near a defensive maneuver and conventionally shouldnt be compared to Sanctuary, but im sorry. Smite Condition, hands down, keeps me up in the fight longer then Sanctuary.

This opinion is may be personal to me only, but i can say with out a doubt it is proven in my experience to be 100% true 100% of the time.

Edit: I edit quite a bit, sorry :P. Just adding info, not really changing my message.

as far as i can rembemer, sanctuary was an elite skill on some very old build of gw2, and renewed focus was an utility… so they exchange the skills without touch the cooldowns.

but most of our skill and traits, need a total rethinking… because if they are going to tweak the way how retaliation is work, we really risk to become something good only for heals and buffs.

Lol Guardians aren’t good for heals lol.

You have Engis getting better stacking from healing power then us! Have you seen those med kits on the ground!

well, i can say that i heal and buff a lot on dungeons, my warrior mate is lost W\out my heals :P

well we can definitely, do it. Its just not in our favor to do so, since we only have 1 heal that can heal other people. (barely) and even then i’ve found a guardian will take aggro doing this and be forced to tank in situations. Not that its horrible or bad, but you try and focus on helping out in PvE and it gets you killed lol.

For a defensive profession, i see all the greatest guardians running hybrid builds built for dmg with stats to make up for armor/toughness then actually using skills like WoR and Sanctuary. They just dont waste time with those.

Guardians aren’t kittened or anything, we’re powerful and we can do our jobs. But like i said in the beginning….

Jack of Trades, Master of None.

I prefer call us “master of defense”, because we have all the cards to do it, but for now these cards are all on our deck.
We have wonderful mechanics as magical knights(dome, ward, simbols, spiritual weapons etc etc…) , but these mechanics are developed only partially

Thats a good way of looking at it, and i agree.

These skills are lacking, not that they need dmg per say, but i feel like they might need to be expanded upon to really give a defensive feel with out giving that hopelessness that comes at the end once their down.

I may not play a support guardian primarily but i’d love to see Sanctuary/WoR/ and the actual defense of the guardian to be used for more then just kittens and giggles. Only time i ever think to use the bubble is for the fun of knocking people off large cliffs and listening in for the long scream XD

Our defensive skills have long cooldowns by design, because Arenanet doesn’t want defense to be too powerful. And given how good we are (defensively) even with longer cooldowns, I don’t think given us lower cooldowns will really be balanced.

Only lower CD is not a good thing, rethik what our Defense do, and make them more viable, is the way.

The perfect example is the 120 sec CD on sanctuary, cant really justify 2k heals and be unmovable. i try to use it on WvW, but i died like a noob, because some warrior simply hit trough it. and even if sanctuary give us immunity to damage, 120 sec for a skill that block you on the place, is a too long time.

The only use I find for Sanctuary is when portal bombing. Its cd is too long for anything else.

It would be nice to have more skills with shorter cd.

Actually sanctuary is a pop up alert, saying “im in trouble” or payers inside are in troube so, the hostile teams will notice and target those inside.

I tend to agree that most of the time I’m mashing 1….1111111111111