Guild Wars 2

After some intensive playing in WvW with my Guardian, I’m here to comment my findings.

Guardians suck for WvW.

I played extensively using Greatswords, Staff and Sword/Shield, arguably the best weapons for WvW. I run a build of Zeal 30, Valor 10, Honor 30, focused on Symbols enhancements (Healing and Larger) and Greatsword damage.

At first, I thought it was fun… well, it is still fun, but my Guardian started to lose it’s appeal to me when I started playing my Elementalist in WvW.
Both professions seems total opposites, one being the best in whatever role in WvW, the other being really subpar in almost everything.

Attacking locations with my Guardian is like watching people play while I heal around (this is why I use Staves), and sometimes drop a Symbol of Swiftness on top of towers. With my build, it deals 600~700 damage which is pretty lame, but it stacks with whatever else is damaging them.
The Orb hits for 1000~2000, but if I had to count… I’d say I hit 1 every 20 or 30.
Attacking through the gate with the Staff seems great, but even with all my Power build, I deal about 700~900 damage. It takes quite a time for people to start moving away from it.

Defending locations is a bit better, I stay on top of towers dropping Symbols in the mob, which doesn’t do much damage, but often I Empower myself and go down for a Symbol of Wrath + Whirling Wrath on the gate. When there’s an absurd amount of people, I can get 100% -> Down in a couple of seconds, so I stay away if I notice 50~75 or more at once.
Wall of Reflection in the gate is cool, but most damage to gates comes from Rams and Sieges, which the Wall doesn’t reflect. So it’s more for fun than anything else, because effectively speaking, it doesn’t do much.
Sanctuary near the Rams when it’s not big gates (Towers only) can help your location for 6~8 extra seconds, since people won’t be able to get near Rams. For a 96~120 sec CD… I don’t think it’s worth it, so I rarely use it.

Roaming around is the strong point of the Guardian. Fighting small groups of 5~15 is where you can shine. Being a juggernaut of damage and defense, you can break enemy lines and anyone who doesn’t move away from you.
This makes the enemy more dispersed, but I’m not sure if this is a good thing.

Chasing people is great since I use Judge’s Intervention and either Flashing Blade for a 1800 gap closer, or I try to preempt-block their escape route with Line of Warding. It’s simply dropping the line, swapping weapons and rushing towards them, and they’ll usually try to flee.

Escaping mobs is… complicated. With no extra movement or anything, if I’m being chased by a zerg and I am in combat, chances I’ll die are pretty high. Shelter and Renewed Focus can grant me some great invulnerable times, but they’re just chasing me at a higher speed so I can’t do much if I can’t get to safety.
The exception being if I can target an enemy far ahead (usually monsters) and double teleport away.

[Continued in the next post]

Now, comparing the same actions to my Elementalist:

I use Scepter/Dagger and Staff, with a build of either Fire 30 (damage), Air 20 (critical), Water 20 (vitality/heal) or Fire 20, Air 20, Water 10, Arcana 20 (extra effects).

Attacking locations with an Elementalist is game breaking. If I use a Staff, I can drop AoEs on top of towers with a pretty nasty range that I hit some Siege weapons as well. People don’t have much choice but move away.
Using the Scepter you can drop skills on top of towers even if you don’t have line of sight, and with a range of 900, it’s pretty decent to break down annoying Sieges.

Defending locations is the Elementalist forte. With a Staff and it’s AoE skills, people can’t stay still and even a single Elementalist makes it hard for people to Siege gates.
The only times I couldn’t properly defend a location was when there were too many at the gates, and ranged professions playing strictly to block me from AoEing their Sieges.
The number of Elementalists defending a location greatly affects the chance of taking that location. The more you have, the less likely the enemy will succeed.

Roaming around with an Elementalist has the advantage of permanent Swiftness for traveling around, but fighting small groups isn’t as strong as the Guardian. With most skills being ground targeted and the only other option is getting into melee range, the Elementalist isn’t as effective in these battles than a Guardian.
It depends strongly on location though, fights on tunnels and other cramped areas are great for Elementalists.
Though even not as effective in my opinion, a Elementalist alone can make 50 or more people retreat or advance at will. Dropping multiple AoE slows in the mob and behind them, and casting other AoE while using some protective skills usually makes a huge group flee. When they don’t flee, they’re taking free 3000~5000 damage.

Chasing people doesn’t exist. People can’t flee from an Elementalist. Having Swiftness at will, multiple slows (Freezing, Cripple, Immobilize, Stun) is a guaranteed way to kill someone fleeing.

Escaping is almost guaranteed as well for the same reasons above. Multiple slows and swiftness, teleports and invulnerability makes you pretty much unkillable if playing safe.

TLDR Version
Guardians are better for small group fights, can survive (take damage) better, but it’s terrible for attacking or defending locations. For 1v1, it’s a fearsome profession to play against with a limited objective (in WvW you can always run) like sPvP.
Elementalists are better for everything else, and even for small group fights they aren’t terrible and can hold their ground.

This is not a rant, I write this in expectation of someone from ArenaNet reading and trying to figure a way to make Guardians at least more useful than they are currently.

Though this should be difficult, since I think Guardians are one of the strongest professions for sPvP, but they’re just not worth their queue slot in WvW.

Kinda agree. I will reroll Elementalist and play it like a Guardian.

Guardians can also stand in a fight and win.

Because I’m sure an elementalist can blink into 10+ maggies, destroy them all and still have near full hp.

Funny, I saw a scene almost like that one, except it was in Eternal Battlegrounds, Jerrifer’s Tower, and there were also alot of red arrows around after I combed a Dragon’s Tooth and Phoenix for about… 8~18k damage.
(I saw a 10k crit among all those numbers, and kitten that was beautiful)

I didn’t had to blink in though, I was at a (sorta) safe spot behind some rock.

that must have been one fragile glass cannon.

@Kita – that. is. glorious. do you mind sharing your setup? don’t mind a PM either if you’d be more comfortable. i’m looking to try out different play stylles in WvW. : )))

i run mainly hammer + staff or the scepter focus setup. and i’ve never played an ele so i gues my following points will be moot, but i never feel useless and still have great fun as a Guardian in WvW. defending as you mentioned, awesome and we can do a TON. when attacking though, i never feel i am just healing or just supporting. i love bashing mobs who are in their stomping animation, saving allies, helping them rally and THEN bring them back to near full health and giving them protection. chasing off stragglers? i do better than most other classes i’ve seen running with with more than a handful of CCs and snares at my disposal. while also being able to speed up.

perhaps it’s just me. but i love it.

[edit: added who first part of message was directed to]

I’ll tell you what I have now and what I will get soon that will make it better

Armor: Soldier stats. 3 knight accessories including amulet, 2 valkyrie. Sanctuary Runes. Beserker Greatsword. 0/10/30/30/0 with things like two handed mastery, shout reduction, pure of voice and altruistic healing.

What it will be

swap the 2 valk accessories for 2 beserker. Give staff sigil of perception, GS sigil of accuracy. Drop Pure of Voice for Empowering Might, add 6 Soldier Runes to mimic Pure of Voice’s effect.

nice. similar build to what i’m running. and i’m gunning for similar runes as well. do you hit that hard though with that setup even? that’s pretty ridiculous. there were 5, 6 dead guys around you!

(runnign rares instead of exotics atm, can it make that big a difference? unless if i’m doing something incredibly wrong lol)

If people are nearly dead, u TP in the midst and hit a couple of fast big hitters, they will down. Its totally situational and many classes can do it.

I use my guardian in WvW for supply camp raiding parties. You feel pretty beast. I usually run a group of 2-3 (I can solo supply camps).

I personally enjoy when the opposing server has to send 20+ to come kill me and back cap. Makes me feel very valuable.

Kita.7819:

Guardians can also stand in a fight and win.

Because I’m sure an elementalist can blink into 10+ maggies, destroy them all and still have near full hp.

Good ss, however, it’s clear it was not just you attacking that cluster around the siege. I truly hope you weren’t expecting us to believe you JI’d in and DPS’d down that whole group singlehandedly.

Not even a guardian can shrug off that much damage if being focused by those numbers. Additionally a guardian lacks the DPS to burst down most classes in one rotation like that unless they’ve already taken a decent amount.

Guardian loses effectiveness in zerg v zerg fights and in siege fights. That’s not to say they’re useless, but that they lack the two things that make a good WvW class: range DPS and range AOE.

I deal around 800-1200 on a basic Greatsword 1st chain slash. Its not that much sure, but as i said elsewhere that damage is going to 5 people at any given time.

That’s also why I’m giving myself more precision and taking use of empowering might.

Interesting post. Unfortunately I have the exact opposite feel of play than you do. In fact, I played a elemental all through the various beta weekends till retail then rolled a Guardian. My ele was a double dagger / staff build and found while range appeared to rule the GW 2 field of play the Guarding felt all around stronger and offered a better play style. For me, mind you.

The biggest weakness for the Guarding in open field WvWvW is game design. Simply put, you do not earn badges for support. That in of itself is the greatest weakness to Guardians and other melee classes. Range or those who can burst down someone quickly via in and out tactics earn more badges while we, the supporting class, struggle.

Having said all that, here is my take which may or may not help you at all. I roll with a spec of 0/15/30/20/5. Armor is Knight’s Draconic (exotic), weapon is Invader’s exotic, staff is berserker exotic, accessories are rare ruby mithril, and runes are 5 solider with 1 lyssa. Not sure how that fares with yours but it wasn’t too difficult I guess to set up. With this set up and spec I pretty much feel I can do just about anything in general as long as I play smart. Some area’s we excel:

Defending keeps, attacking keeps, and movement.

1 guardian’s + staff + wave of wrath can do a lot to delay attacking forces from breaking down the door.
2 guardian’s + staff + wave of wrath doubles the fun.
3 guardian’s + staff + wave of wrath = priceless. They just won’t get through no matter how many rams they have.

Wall of Reflection? Learn it, equip it, use it, love it. Jump down, pop it, and run back in. This rocks until the player base gets smart enough to understand what this does. I’ve personally seen zergs suicide on this simple trait. Run with another guardian, coordinate, and watch the fun.

Symbol of swiftness vs. siege is a good combo. You can assist taking out people on the walls, oil, arrow carts, etc. Furthermore, you can use Line of Warding and push people back, off, etc. Most forget they can jump over it.

Of course there is the speed movement which you mention via symbol of swiftness. This falls into support by moving large forces from point A to point B. Stacking guardians or guardians who communicate with one another can move people rather quickly across the map. This is just the staff and some small bits of it. There is a bit of range with it orbs and our swiftness symbol so you get the point I guess.

Offense and you.

Depending on weapon choice you can be a pretty lean mean fighting machine and get up close and personal and yet still walk away. However, I feel you have to be a bit more selective or smart I guess. I use a hammer and find that I can hold my own more or less. Basically I’m not the expert here and there are a few other threads that may be of help, but here is my style when I go on the offense.

Target select, mighty blow to close, ring of warding to isolate the two of us, banish, back to symbol / hammer 1 protection, zealot’s embrace if they run or dodge out, mighty blow again. I say dance because I’m trying my best to stay up close and personal on the target. If they move or turn and burn then I’m going to use Zealot’s if it is up to cc them again.

Other times I’m going to just do CC and let the rest of the force knock them out. This is done by using Zealot’s embrace, ring of warding to steer the opposing zerg, and even going suicidal and placing a warding ring and using shouts.

In the end it is really how you play and how it feels. To me it seems like the best class that lets you do everything and get away with it. Especially if you are keen on swapping weapons. One of my favorite things to do with I’m with large forces is to just go b@lls out and charge the enemy zerg head on. They have no idea what I’m doing and before they know it I’m pushing them back via a crazy guardian running at them with a hammer, then swapping to staff, then using wave of wrath, orbs, and lastly popping wall of reflection

It is fun. But…like I noted above badges for supporting the team do not fall out of the sky like skittles

I didn’t get into using siege, healing, etc. I just use hammer and staffs, swap between both. Use scepters from time to time. Target selection with hammer is important. But I find the staff as my go-to time and time again because people don’t understand what it can do. Pair that up with another guardian and it is almost silly.

Just my opinion.

@Kita,

Not trying to rain on your parade, but if people closely inspected that screenshot, I counted 7 Up leveled 80’s. As much as I love smashing lowbies, lets be realistic, that wasn’t a fight against geared players.

@skud,

Dunno if it really matters honestly because the beauty of GW2 and WvWvW is that you can enter at any level. Looking at the screenshot I see maybe 6 upticked 80’s with the clear majority being hard stop 80’s.

Gear check is another story. Anyway it doesn’t matter. The class isn’t for everyone and it does force people to adapt. The rewards are not there for support play and this isn’t only game that has had this issue and dates back to retail DaOC. Healers couldn’t get realm points no matter what they did. Just how it was. However, through the various patches guess what? They did some minor tweaks and all of a sudden healers and supporting classes netted the same amount of realm points as those of range or melee.

Crapgame.6519:

The biggest weakness for the Guarding in open field WvWvW is game design. Simply put, you do not earn badges for support. That in of itself is the greatest weakness to Guardians and other melee classes. Range or those who can burst down someone quickly via in and out tactics earn more badges while we, the supporting class, struggle.

That is a flaw, indeed. My build was made with support in mind, but just supporting… isn’t rewarding. Also, with the amount of stuff in the game, just supporting lacks.
By supporting I mean healing, because ressing everyone can do.
For example, with so many Arrow Carts it’s impractical to heal everyone. You use a skill, they’re taking even more damage. That’s how the game was made, no one is supposed to outheal the damage.

So supporting… helps, but just a little. And it’s not rewarding.

Crapgame.6519:

Defending keeps, attacking keeps, and movement.
…
Offense and you.

I did everything you mentioned already.
The problem isn’t that Guardians aren’t viable, they just aren’t worth being in WvW.

After playing with an Elementalist, most of the time I’m in WvW with my Guardian I can’t help but think “If I were with my Elementalist…”
- “…I’d take out those annoying Arrow Carts more easily”
- “…I’d help clear the gates with 3~4 AoEs more easily”
- “…I could’ve made the difference between not losing that keep”
- “…I could’ve killed that down’ed guy that far”
- “…I would not have died back there”
- “…I could suicide run those sieges for more damage”
- “…I could help take down those defenders up in the walls”
(The Scepter aside from Smite is a joke to kill (even damage) people on walls)

Among many, many others.

The only time I ever think it would be best being a Guardian is when I’m using a Ram (because some people just forget about it sometimes) and with a 1800 defense and 15k health and no health regen, things hurt.
But this was my build’s choice so I’m to blame.

Oh, I just remember another one, when I’m running around and either defending or attacking, and I get a 6~7k hit from a Ballista. These times I also think “If I were a Guardian, I wouldn’t have lost nearly 50% of my health” but only after “I shouldn’t been there”.

I hope they change Guardians to have a more active role in WvW, but for that… Guardians would be extremely OP in my opinion if they were given better ranged and/or better AoE.

SKuDDer.1860:

@Kita,

Not trying to rain on your parade, but if people closely inspected that screenshot, I counted 7 Up leveled 80’s. As much as I love smashing lowbies, lets be realistic, that wasn’t a fight against geared players.

I only count 3.

To the OP, your build needs a serious look at for WvW, I have found little to no use for symbol based skills in WvW. You need to look more around buffing up the consecration skills because that’s where the main party defense comes in.
High toughness, high precision through your runes and a lot of party ranged defense is a very effective play style.
But yeah, if you want to go farm badges play ele.

i was just thinking, true, perhaps supporting is not rewarding – in a sense where you don’t get as much loot. for me, at least, when i enter WvW, i’m going for the fun, the experience and the support you provide for your allies is priceless. think a little big picture and it helps with justifying playing a Guardian, if you will.

i love being able to banish invaders that are performing the stomp animation on a downed ally. and it just feels good. it doesn’t matter if i don’t get badges from that.

i agree that Guardians don’t have as much ranged options – least not a super viable one. however, the hammer, the GS, the staff all have AoE capabilities. just need to get lucky or learn to use them in the right time and places. Tome of Wrath does decent dmg when defending a wall. heck, i’ve even used ot to push enemies back on a standoff. and when my force are able to kill any of those off, i hit the invaders enough where i get credit and if i’m lucky, loot bags and badges from that.

so far with my build, i don’t change much up except for a couple major traits when going into WvW (from PvE). but i imagine if i spec for more PvP / WvW, the difference we can make is even greater.

Kita.7819:

I only count 3.

There’s actually 8, he missed one.

First, I think a lot of people, for whatever reason, still don’t seem to get how melee is played in this game.

It’s not a “there’s a grp, i’m going to just run right in and start swinging”… that’s a “thanks for your badge” move. Like most things in life, you need to know your exit strategy BEFORE you ‘jump in’. Otherwise…. No Badge 4 U.

I easily have over 750 badges. I’m not saying that’s alot, but in no way is that small either. Yes, we’re not Theives who basically get free badges just for showing up in WvW… but still. I’ve not many complaints in the Badge Department for the very little amount of time I get to log in.

Support is not, standing in the back lines trying to ‘heal’ people… lol. Sorry, wrong game, wrong design.

Support is damage negation, damage mititgation, burst dps on /assist (yes, we can do 9k in a few seconds), speed, retaliation, etc…. not, sitting back and healing… that doesn’t exist, per say. WvW is too fluid, this isnt static PvE: Oh look a mob that stands there and tries to hit us, i’ll just throw down a symbol and have everyone stand in it and they get my ‘support’…

Um, WvWvW. If you haven’t figured it out, the signle most important aspect to PvP (in general, and even moreso in WvW) is Mobility… If you don’t have it, you die.

Next, imho, Damage Negation / Mititgation (and yes, killing them before them killing you is a form of it, contrary to belief): Blocking, Boons, Utilities.

The list goes on and on.

If you’re feeling ‘bad’ about the class, or jipped in some way, maybe it’s your peception of the class and you’re trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

Kita.7819:

SKuDDer.1860:

@Kita,

Not trying to rain on your parade, but if people closely inspected that screenshot, I counted 7 Up leveled 80’s. As much as I love smashing lowbies, lets be realistic, that wasn’t a fight against geared players.

I only count 3.

Not trying to be rude, but should count that again:
Who’s counting?

7, down by skill bar.

Like I said, there’s 8!

You don’t count the target because it could be any of these on the screen (also it can not) so to avoid double counting… just counted the arrows on screen.

Amins.3710:

First, I think a lot of people, for whatever reason, still don’t seem to get how melee is played in this game.

I seriously think that, after 5~6 replies the thread logic is totally lost. Do people even read before replying?

This is totally unrelated to the thread but I’ll reply anyway…

Amins.3710:

Support is damage negation, damage mititgation, burst dps on /assist (yes, we can do 9k in a few seconds), speed, retaliation, etc…. not, sitting back and healing… that doesn’t exist, per say.

Okay, let’s see.
Damage Negation: Guardians are unmatched, no contest here.
Damage Mitigation: I’d say they’re even with other classes. Though I don’t know what profession can keep something like Protection for a group constantly.
Burst Damage: Melee only. Any other profession can do much better burst, and from ranged. And AoE. You can’t melee on top of walls. You can’t melee from the top of walls either.
Speed: Guardians aren’t so good on this.
Retaliation: A boon that deals 450~ damage per hit you take? Seriously that you consider this support?

You forgot to mention Control, one of the most important things to actually get a kill. If you don’t use a Scepter for the Immobilize, how do you prevent someone from running to safety decently?
I can think of only one other choice, and it’s not worth the slot.

If you don’t kill them, they’ll just heal and come back.

Amins.3710:

Um, WvWvW. If you haven’t figured it out, the signle most important aspect to PvP (in general, and even moreso in WvW) is Mobility… If you don’t have it, you die.

So if I have more mobility I’ll be better at taking keeps and towers? And defending as well?

Amins.3710:

Next, imho, Damage Negation / Mititgation (and yes, killing them before them killing you is a form of it, contrary to belief): Blocking, Boons, Utilities.

You know, I tried this, but they always manage to kill me before I kill them. Even using a full bunker build, I just couldn’t melee the gate down in time (these gates need some serious nerfing) before I got zerged by their defense zerg-er, party.

Amins.3710:

If you’re feeling ‘bad’ about the class, or jipped in some way, maybe it’s your peception of the class and you’re trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

I’m sorry about the sarcastic responses, but I don’t like to keep repeating the original post everytime. If you didn’t read, why reply?

I suppose there is 8 :P, Also, Danicco you take my hatred for being a guardian in WvWvW straight out of my thoughts.

The thing people tend to not look at when comparing guardians:

1. Yes guardians have some of the best mitigation traits/skills in the game.
2. No guardians do no have the best survivability traits, as a guardian you make a choice. Either you go in and die, or you go in and win. If you go in and realize you are losing the battle, there is no escaping the battle as a guardian, we have very little to no survivability in this manner.
3. We have no range, the staff is a only 600 range, very poor skills, and its a damage is not in a 3d plane, but a 2d plane. You won’t hit anything above or below your plane.
4. We have very poor condition applications. Look at other classes, they have tons of ways to apply conditions via weapon skills, we do not. We barely get any form of viable CC. No bleeds, no cripples, a few blinds, a few vulnerabilities, a few burns, no fears, very few chills, very few/poor immobilze.
5. Our condition removal is sub par, most of the abilities only remove 1 condition and have a high CD.
6. Not a burst profession

The list can go on, but plain and simple, as a guardian if you don’t chase down someone with another profession such as a warrior, they will probably get away from you. No one fears a guardian, they are just annoyed that they take longer to kill then other professions.

Original poster who took the image and added numbers – I lol’d However, maybe use a different color next time For what it is worth we are arguing what exactly? There are 8 upticked 80’s vs 16 or so normal 80’s. Even if 16 is high it doesn’t matter because standard 80s far exceeded upticked.

Regarding badge farming and “my” comment. My only point is that when you look at the GW2 class structure some classes just don’t reap the same rewards equally. I get not everyone is equal. Fine. However, badges are part of the game regardless if you have your 500, gear, or what have you. New content will come and you “may” want them. Thus, some faster than others. Not a huge deal, but it is what it is.

WvWvW is group oriented, not solo.

Weapon selection. We have it for a reason, so use it. Yeah, it takes inventory space, but depending on what task is at hand, you have a proper tool. Heck, just yesterday I had to bust out a scepter to kill a couple kitten camping in the jump puzzle at the log/spike traps. Remove hammer, equip focus and scepter, attack. Switch between staff and scepter/focus and I removed the problem. 1/2 hand sword, focus/shield, staff, hammer. Seems like we have some options in front of us.

I guess I really don ’t know. Reminds me a lot of playing a Thane back in DaOC retail days. We have a lot of options. We can swap some abilities on the fly along with gear. Some range, some melee, some mitigation, and some dps. None of it equals some of the burst classes like a thief or warrior. In the end if you are really not having fun then you should play what is.

That is what matters and why we have a choice. Me personally? I enjoy it. Not so much solo play but in a small group of people it is fun and I feel I’m not leaching.

Anyways, I will have some videos up of WvW shortly, I was working on them and did not have time to finish them yesterday. It will all be small group play(4-5), as a guardian, don’t expect to ever solo run around.

Maybe it’s just Darkhaven Guardians, but I’m pretty much always on the front lines, and it takes 3+ people to bring me down. And even then, I can drag 10+ people the distance of a Supply depot to a Keep entrance with them trying to kill me.

/highfive Kita

I personally run an Alturistic Healing build with Hammer and Sword/Shield.

6 Lyssa Runes in full Valk Gear with Valk Weapons (Accuracy Sigil in Shield Strength Sigils in Sword and Hammer)

Full Knights Jewlery

0/15/30/20/5

Kami.7369:

Maybe it’s just Darkhaven Guardians, but I’m pretty much always on the front lines, and it takes 3+ people to bring me down. And even then, I can drag 10+ people the distance of a Supply depot to a Keep entrance with them trying to kill me.

/highfive Kita

I personally run an Alturistic Healing build with Hammer and Sword/Shield.

6 Lyssa Runes in full Valk Gear with Valk Weapons (Accuracy Sigil in Shield Strength Sigils in Sword and Hammer)

Full Knights Jewlery

0/15/30/20/5

Again, this kind of build is fine if you don’t actually want to do any damage, which to me is not fun. For some, it is fun to survive and force a zerg to chase you down. If that is your cup of tea, go for it. Mine is to do average dmg output while not being exploded from aoe and insane burst dps from other glass cannons, but without proper CC, it is hard for a guardian.

SKuDDer.1860:

Kami.7369:

Maybe it’s just Darkhaven Guardians, but I’m pretty much always on the front lines, and it takes 3+ people to bring me down. And even then, I can drag 10+ people the distance of a Supply depot to a Keep entrance with them trying to kill me.

/highfive Kita

I personally run an Alturistic Healing build with Hammer and Sword/Shield.

6 Lyssa Runes in full Valk Gear with Valk Weapons (Accuracy Sigil in Shield Strength Sigils in Sword and Hammer)

Full Knights Jewlery

0/15/30/20/5

Again, this kind of build is fine if you don’t actually want to do any damage, which to me is not fun. For some, it is fun to survive and force a zerg to chase you down. If that is your cup of tea, go for it. Mine is to do average dmg output while not being exploded from aoe and insane burst dps from other glass cannons, but without proper CC, it is hard for a guardian.

Hammer and Sword do fantastic damage. Hammer provides a more reliable burst on a shorter CD than a Greatsword, and Sword has a high burst single target attack.

Hammer and Shield also provide great CC to stop Glass Cannons from killing me.

I’ll probably start recording some WvW fights soon just to show.

@kami
Wouldn’t that put you at around 13000 hp?

SKuDDer.1860:

@kami
Wouldn’t that put you at around 13000 hp?

Valkyrie gear has Vitality+20 points in Honor. I’m at 15.5k with hammer, ad 17k with Sword and Shield. 1800 Power and 1600 Toughness. 45% crit with Hammer 50% crit with S/S. I think 48% bonus crit damage. I’m at work so these are just off the top of my head.

Clearly I do not know what I’m talking about.

Yes, I do actually read… I just get tired of the same teen coments Danicco.

You’re right, Guardians are sub-par at everything.

PLEASE BUFF US.

On a serious note however, it seems you’re one of those ‘min/max’ kind of people. I think this is your first mistake in approaching the class.

I tried this at first and honestly, felt a bit like you’re saying… You should try to change your perspective Danicco. It might make the class a bit more fun.

If you want to play support in a zerg, don’t just sit there w/ a staff and pretend it’s going to actually ‘support’ everyone around you…

A Guardian is NOT the ‘lets sit in the back of the bus’ class. If you haven’t figured that out by now I’m not sure what to tell you.

Get in the front line, remove conditions, give boons, lay down Damage Negation.

You say Guardains are sub-par because when you’re taking points all you do is watch everyone…. Um, why are you standing around watching? Is that really how you built your character?

I mean, if you’re full Cleric gear w/ Soilder Runes you should be on the front line of taking ~anyting~. Not sitting back watching people kill things.

We have a dual role that is very synergitic of each other: support & Melee. We do them both at the same time.

Unfortunatly, Scepter orbs need to be faster and until that’s fixed, there is no range game for Guardians… so stop trying to play it that way until it’s fixed… or go roll an elemental.

But to come to the forums saying we’re sub-par to every class just makes me laugh.

I do just fine at:
17.5hp
27% crit / 75% crit dmg
3003 Attk pwr
2560 Armor
+665 Healing

Oh, and your comment about Retaliation… stop trolling or figure out ~when~ to use it so you can see the benefit.

@amins,

Your stat combination seems to be off, unless when you say 2560 toughness you mean armor? Then I could believe that combination. To have 2560 toughness with 17.5k hp and 75% crit damage and +665 healing, something in your statement is wrong.

Yeah, I edited it Skudder. Sorry bout that.

I too run the Alturistic Healing build and just don’t see any issues at all. Is it a bursty class? Not like all the other classes, not by any means. However, it seems there is a lot of control when I use the hammer. When I use the staff I’m playing another style all together and honestly find that I’m actually wreckless. To the point, I charge in full speed and make the enemy react. To me, that is fun. In fact, nothing is more fun that running head long into a zerg, popping wall of reflection and watching stupid people thin the herd…

I’m not great by any means. Full Draconic exotics, Invaders hammer exotic, Bersekers staff exotic, 5 runes of eagle, 1 rune of lyssa (rares on types), exotic sigel of accuracy, and rare accesseries which are all ruby mithril. I think this puts me on the lower side of the health pool @

Health 15,000
Crit with hammer 43%
Crit with Staff 49%
Armor 2800
Attack 2800

I guess what I’m saying is that even with above average gear the Guardian can compete. Both in solo play and group. Heck, a elementalist and I danced one on one last night for about 20 minutes around a capture point. He/She couldn’t kill me and I them. However, I at least got them close to death on several occasions and I felt I had a chance. Had I timed some CC a bit better or stayed on target (hell, or even keybind) they would have been dead.

Amins.3710:

PLEASE BUFF US.

That’s not what I want, but if that’s what you read, then you missed the point I tried to make.

Amins.3710:

On a serious note however, it seems you’re one of those ‘min/max’ kind of people. I think this is your first mistake in approaching the class.

Indeed I am, but that’s not relevant here…

Amins.3710:

Get in the front line, remove conditions, give boons, lay down Damage Negation.

You say Guardains are sub-par because when you’re taking points all you do is watch everyone…. Um, why are you standing around watching? Is that really how you built your character?

Resuming what I’ve said, Guardians are awesome for PvP. No doubts.
But they have very little participation compared to other professions in WvW massive battles (the most important of them all) because we don’t have a decent ranged or AoEs like other professions do.

Scepter’s Smite is terrible since it’s erratic and unreliable, and it’s auto-attack is a joke. I can only hit people AFK with it.
The other option being the Staff doesn’t hit above or below the area, so it’s unusable either.

Amins.3710:

I do just fine at:

Yeah yeah, everyone does “fine”. You can be just another one running in circles near the gates taking damage from AoEs, or another one running on top of walls casting a slow orb of 1500ish damage every 3~10 seconds (to hit), or one of the suicidal guys who jump down in the middle of a 30+ zerg to give the enemy free bags.

Even the mightiest Guardian can do nothing against people outside their limited reach.

Or you can be one of the guys helping taking these enemies out with decent ranged, AoE and controls.

And just to brag about my stats as well:

Attack 3481 (currently bugged so it’s at 3431)
Crit Chance 21% / Crit Damage 55%
Defense 2465
Health 19365
Healing 300

With 25 stacks of Bloodlust and Sharpening Stones (Mithril because I’m poor) and no Food because I’m poor and have no Chef, I stand at 3800 Attack most of the time.
My Greatsword’s Wrathful Strike averages 1500~3000 noncrit. It’s no wonder people run away from me.

Too bad even with all that power, I can do nothing about that pesky Engineer dropping grenades from the Wall, or the Necromancer raining Conditions everywhere.

But Buffs are what you want. You don’t like the way in which thier system works, so you want it changed… you want it, Buffed.

Your playstyle and how you set up your character is Relevant. It’s the basis for which your statements are founded on. This type of playstle works really well when you have dedicated support classes to make up for what you can’t do: heal / dmg mitigation.

As for ‘Massive Battles’, it’s not that we’re not effective, it’s that ~you’re~ not effective, because the way in which we are effective is not your style of play…. You believe we’re only effective if we have good range. That’s just not the case and no matter how many times you’re told or the suggestion to change your perspective or playstle, you’re not going to becuase it’s not what you want to do.

Doesn’t mean Guardians are in-effective in Massive WvW… just means ~you’re~ in-effective in Massive WvW.

And yes, I do just fine. Unlike most new players who jump in and blow all thier Utilities, I’m seasoned enough to always keep my Escape Cooldowns for just taht… Escape.

As for brag’n about stats, that was not the intention. You misread that. Rather, it was to show a base for which my playstle and stats work, for me.

Clearly you need to work on either Utilites / Defense to keep ‘Up Time’ in combat, if you’re complaining about our “Effectiveness”.

… and whose to say you need to stand at the front of the keep and let that “Pesky” Engineer drop bombs on you? There is sooo much more to do.

does no one use Tome of Wrath here? given yes, again, we’re giving up all 10+ of our regular skills for just 5. but i’ve done some decent damage just spamming #1. whether it be defending, attacking and or even just pushing enemy lines back. not saying i’m a one man army, of course, i work best with other people as well.

Guardians by no means i feel are weak in WvW. we have a lot of CC which is extremely useful. sure, maybe not in large scale battles, but we do have our parts to play. sadly, when i first joined WvW (albeit at lvl 21 lol) it seemed like pretty much ranged or gtfo. but then you can learn to adapt? run small strike squads. like you mentioned, Dannico, Guards are aweomse at PvP so let yourself shine in those moments.

even in large zergs, at the gate, i won’t just stand in the back. staff #3 or smite (scepter #2) does good consistent damage against enemy siege. while melee is up at the gate and getting rained upon, i can offer them protection while still doing, even if only little, damage to the gate. i always keep an eye around and make sure i take out, or just CC, any of those crazy ones tha tjump down trying to stir crap up. and when they ARE cc-ed, the rest of my teammates take ’em down.

or team up with people, using teamspeak or even just chat and work together. the Guardian can do a lot and can be a huge asset in WvW. again, we may not be able to rain down AoE as other classes do, but please don’t make us sound useless. in every situation, there will be a class or build than is better than others. i don’t believe there is a MASTER OF ALL class or build out there. so we just can find ourselves in situations where we are going to be the best or going to be most effective.

Amins.3710:

Doesn’t mean Guardians are in-effective in Massive WvW… just means ~you’re~ in-effective in Massive WvW.

I’m sorry but I can’t see this happening. I’ve been playing WvW only, because I enjoy it and I’ve seen thousands of Guardians already, and I remember clearly that no Guardian has ever showed a significant participation in any kind of massive battle, defending or attacking locations.

I’ve seen too many Mesmers, Engineers and Elementalists significantly helping their team or hindering enemies which always stroke me in awe “Wow, is this even possible?”

Amins.3710:

Clearly you need to work on either Utilites / Defense to keep ‘Up Time’ in combat, if you’re complaining about our “Effectiveness”.

I seriously hope you’re not trolling, but I’m starting to guess I’ve been fooled so far. Well, I don’t mind it too much, except I hate to repeat myself everytime…

I’m not questioning Guardian “effectiveness” in combat, if you’ve read, you’d know it. I’m questioning it’s usefulness as a whole in WvW.
Some people, such as myself, are like this. I can’t help but think “I want to be even more useful” to the point of getting the best of what I can offer. Yeah, that’s min-maxing in a way.

I might have been unclear, so I apologize. I should have explained it better.

Player A controls the overpowered Guardian. Let’s assume he has all utility skills slotted, as well as all weapons equipped.

Player A is attacking a keep with his group of 20. The enemy, who is a little bit smart, will fight them off from the top of walls, simply because it’s more advantageous to do so.

Player A’s group puts up a Ram. Player A is helping build it. The enemies, not so dumb, have an Elementalist who casts two ground targetted spells on the Ram. One deals 1500 x4, the other one 2000 and bleeds 4000 for 8 seconds.
Player A can choose to remain on location or run. He has nothing to do to prevent that damage, or heal the Ram. He has no healing skill that is able to heal that much damage from any players in his group who’ve chosen to stay there.

Regardless of choice, let’s advance a bit. 6 seconds later, the same Elementalist casts the same spell of 1500 x4 and a Meteor Shower for randomly 2500 damage over a large area.
Does Player A stays or run from the area?

Again, regardless of choice, let’s advance. Your group’s Ram has been destroyed from the AoEs (there wasn’t only one, there’s ALWAYS more). The entire group is taking damage from a couple of Arrow Carts positioned a few steps away from the wall’s edges. It deals 1000 damage each second in the area, cripple and bleed, and has a constant uptime. What does Player A do?

Now, let’s advance a little bit. The enemy got reinforcements of around 10 players, and they’re bolder now. They’re visibly standing at the edges of walls casting everything they can on Player A’s group. What does Player A do?

Since he has access to all skills, I’d say the best effective way to participate is to pick the Scepter, and Smite away. It deals 300ish damage with high power, hits an uncertain amount of hits, so it’s relatively weak compared to damages of 1500+ your team is being attacked with.
Another less effective way is to pick up the Staff, and drop a Symbol of Swiftness for 700ish damage on walls.
And lastly and really less effective, Player A can attack gates for 50 damage.

Now, let’s say he wants to “support”. He drops a Symbol of Wrath in the Ram group of 10 players, everyone with Retaliation. All 10 players stand still in an Elementalist’s Lava Font, take 7500 damage each, and assuming the retaliation damage of 350, the Elementalist suffers a whooping damage of 17500 over 5 seconds. He’s down unless he heals himself!

Now, this is indeed useful!
If you have this 10 man group take damage from all Elementalists/Engineers on walls, they can take out the entire wall like this! But oh, wait, do they have enough health or heals to survive at least 2 or 3?

Amins.3710:

… and whose to say you need to stand at the front of the keep and let that “Pesky” Engineer drop bombs on you? There is sooo much more to do.

Such as?
Going elsewhere and taking an open camp? Sure, that’s something you could do. Abandon your group and their squad objective because there’s much more to do, right?

As strong as Guardians can be on ground fighting, so is every other profession. Yet, every other profession has stronger points in defending and attacking keeps than a Guardian.

I simply ask for a change in either the WvW setup (that’s not going to happen), skills (allowing us to defend sieges and AoE weaponry with our shields to make us more valuable defenders/attackers), or weapons (improvements on Scepter, Staff or for god’s sake please let us use Longbows).

akamon.2769:

does no one use Tome of Wrath here? given yes, again, we’re giving up all 10+ of our regular skills for just 5. but i’ve done some decent damage just spamming #1. whether it be defending, attacking and or even just pushing enemy lines back. not saying i’m a one man army, of course, i work best with other people as well.

I did, but 20 seconds every 3 min isn’t worth the slot for me. It makes us finally 1200 ranged casters with AoE, but it’s short duration doesn’t justify the long CD. It is unreliable, since the uptime is terrible because of that.

akamon.2769:

run small strike squads. like you mentioned, Dannico, Guards are aweomse at PvP so let yourself shine in those moments.

This is where Guardians shine indeed, but unfortunately, these are the least important battles in my opinion, because every other profession can do just fine like a Guardian does, and not all battles are for camps/roamers.
Sometimes, actually, most of the times, you’ll be fighting for towers and keeps, and this is where you should strive to make the difference and help your group succeed.

This is my opinion, though, because I’m mainly an objective player. I know some players who have a blast just picking fights on the road, but my play style is going for the objective always (and winning!).

@Dannico – sorry, can’t quote again. c’mon forums! and i agree. that slot is semi wasted so usually i only have it while i know i’m going to be abel to use it. i guess i’m coming from a “make-do-with-what-we-can” as Guardians. i guess best bet is to pop it when the time is right.

regarding strike teams / fights on the road. i can see where you’re coming from. i myself strive more for the objectives as well as wanting to be part of big battles, taking towers or defending our own. at the same time, by taking out supply camps, or downing yaks or what not, you are ultimately contributing to the big picture. i don’t go on strike team runs for the sheer fun of it, but beause i believe it truly disrupts the enemy and helps our own cause.

that being said, what are some other ideas or strategies that other Guardians felt they have been able t contribute and make a big difference? especially in situations such as fighting for towers and keeps, as Danicco had pointed out.

I’d like to have a stronger role in keep warfare and massive zerg. But I have found a role in skirmishing, flanking and portal bombing. A true ranged weapon like a bow would make these situations a bit more fun.

akamon.2769:

i guess i’m coming from a “make-do-with-what-we-can” as Guardians. i guess best bet is to pop it when the time is right.

There’s times where it is indeed useful, but the bad thing is that during it’s CD you can’t use Renewed Focus for example, which really decreases your chances of survival if you get in the middle of the enemy mob.
If it weren’t for that, it’d be an awesome skill in my opinion… but I guess if you avoid the front lines and play safer, it’s a great skill to some situations.

akamon.2769:

that being said, what are some other ideas or strategies that other Guardians felt they have been able t contribute and make a big difference? especially in situations such as fighting for towers and keeps, as Danicco had pointed out.

The best I could come with is changing a few traits in my build to suit Spirit Weapons better, and use Sanctuary, Wall of Reflection, Shield of the Avenger and Bow of Truth.

Shield of the Avenger is awesome, borderline overpowered because it absorbs pretty much all projectiles and stays for a long time, it’s flaw is that it doesn’t follow you as soon as you enter combat.
But if you use it on top of a wall, for example, you’ll enter combat as soon as you get damaged or damage someone, and it’ll stay there for 20~30 seconds blocking projectiles.

Though it’s ineffective against ground targeted skills, there’s still a bunch of damage that comes in forms of projectiles, so this greatly helps your fellow casters/engineers to stay a bit more in the edges attacking stuff. I don’t remember if it blocks Engineer’s grenades though, but stuff that bypasses it’s protections are usually Necromancer’s conditions (from Marks) and Elementalists’ AoEs.

The same goes for Bow of Truth. It’s condition removal is terrible, but since you’re standing still most of the time on top a wall, it actually removes one or two. And it’s great when it removes that single condition that was killing you even though you moved away from the edge, such as Bleed or Burning.
And the healing skill from it seems highly underrated, it heals for a really nice amount and can be used twice if you have Eternal Spirits (Zeal 20) and Improved Spirit Weapon Duration (Virtue 10).

It’s positioning is annoying just like Shield of the Avenger though.

Wall of Reflection doesn’t need explanations.

Sanctuary has a really long CD, but I find it useful to use it right on top of enemy rams, which is probably the siege weapon that deals the most damage to gates.
So drop down the wall on top of Rams, cast one, and you buy 6~8 seconds. It’s not much, but it’s something.

Now, if you’re attacking it’s a bit more troublesome because most of these aren’t as effective due to all the moving and AoE raining down, but well, it’s still the best we can do.

Usually that’s what I do, try to protect our casters on top of walls with these skills while granting Empower whenever I can, and healing in general with Symbols (traited) and Orb of Light, though it’s a bit annoying to aim the camera “forward” – it goes to the center of your screen when you don’t have a target – so it doesn’t instantly disappears into the ground after you cast (so you can explode it for the heal).

Well, though we lack the ranged firepower, we excel at these stuff though!

There are a few things that I think make guardians unique – particularly in WvW:

- Wall! The wall of shinies makes a Skritt’s heart melt.

- Sanctuary: I love this skill! I trait for both increased duration and ground targeting on consecrations, and the sanctuary goes from an “okay” skill to a major source of annoying. As far as I know, this skill is the only major source of roadblocking of any class. Other bubbles can be dodged through, but this will block the path of most enemies. Without ground targeting, it’s very risky to use, but with it, you can put it anywhere and impede the progress of an entire enemy force for a surprisingly long time. You can also drop one in the middle of the enemy rank and run into it. It’s fun to watch people get bumped back repeatedly several times… and then slowly back away from you. Sure, AOEs will still hurt, but a lot of classes don’t have strong AOEs, and it usually take the rest a few seconds to get out of tunnel vision and switch their target to you – quite disruptive in siege defense or open-field standoffs. You can also knock people off cliffs, save a downed ally, trap an enemy in a corner. The cooldown is long, but there is a lot of fun to be had with it.

Group stability – Stability is wonderful in WvW, and very few classes has reliable sources of it outside their elite skills. Here you are, Mr. my-boots-are-made-of-rocks, giving group stability with stand-yer-ground (up to something like 8 seconds every 24 seconds if you trait and use runes) to you and your buddies. Not mentioning the incredibly situational, but powerful halloween ground (might as well make it ground-targeting to fit the theme!). Use it to your advantage. Your allies may not realize it, but your enemies will. Stay grounded, my friends.