Guild Wars 2

so I went to wvw after I made new guardian and I feel stronger with lvl 2 guardian than with fully geared lvl 80 mesmer who I have 3k h on Im gonna quit mesmer guardian will be my new main its just soo awsome. its not troll post btw

I fully agree with you. After playing ele as my first choice, and then trying enge, mesmer, necro for a few weeks each I was astonished how good guardians actually are compared to other classes just by existing. Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully aware of the high skill cap on ele, and how helpful mesmers can be in WvW, but guardian are (no insult on any kind intended) easy mode of this game. I go in, I kill 20 I go out like nothing happened. I was astonished how good they are, that’s all. Just like guy above me

I disagree with the notion that this class is “easy mode” in any way. But I will say that I think we are the most balanced class in the game. Unparalleled group support if you spec for it. A very solid 1v1/havoc build (my specialty) if you spec for it. All main hands and 2 handed weapons are very good.

It’s pretty nice that I can roll with 13,500 hp and have started feeling like a tank, playing the class for 3k hours kinda makes it second nature, and I’m at that point where I don’t think I’m getting much better (even though there is still room for improvement of course).

But if you play a staff-1 spamming 0-0-6-6-2 build, that is definitely easymode. If you want a challenge, try a spirit weapon or signet build :P. Those need a bit of a rework and I’m eager to see our Ready Up. I honestly wouldn’t be mad though if they say “guardians are in a good place,” because we are. I would just like to see some buffs for torch and/or shield.

I will go on the limb here and say that i think guardian was your first class.
Let me share my experience with you. I was playing ele since the first week of the game release(worst case first month) and even today i can’t do some stuff with ele that i did in 20 days of actively playing my ‘new’ guardian (It’s more then a year old in truth but I started to play her regularly only recently).
Of course I’m not deluding myself thinking that I am one of the best eles out there but I’m sure not the worst. I am above average at least. That said i can do good running stuff build (which we all know is boring as hell) or roaming. But being in the zerg with D/D ele is just sad compared to proper build guardian. This is basically all I meant when i said it was easy mode.
Also, one last remark – lucky for everyone else this class was put in lowest health pool!

trust me, there is a hell of a lot a d/d ele can do that a guardian most definitely can not do.
Guardian is actually NOT in a “pretty good spot” right now.
Why? The first problem is that the base stats of a Guardian leave you in a spot where you cannot survive spike damage in any way, shape or form. This forces nigh on every single guardian player ever to go down the route of investing heavily into the Vitality traitline, which gives us a an extremely narrow set of builds.
The second problem is our conditions. Or lack, thereof. We have burn and….sometimes vulnerability and blindness….one of the worst chill traits in the game…..and that’s about it. Our condition damage and traits are all over the place and the traitlines need a redesign so that condition Guardians can be viable in proper tPvP.
Thirdly, we cannot go full zerk in an effective way in teamfights. Go play an above average tPvP fight. Your opponents team has a zerker guardian, and your team is winning by a fair margin. Who is the first guy to get downed and stomped in almost every team fight? That’s right, the zerker guardian. He can’t disengage outside of a paltry GS3. He’s in the fight, and he’s committed. Except unlike warrior, he has no vitality, terrible condition clearance, no way of handling spike damage. Any attempts at doing either of the aforementioned blows an important cool down that leaves the guardian 10x as vulnerable as he was before. His damage is impressive and it’s super kewl when you land the old SoW+LoF+JI+Smite combo on a group of enemies, but let’s be realistic. That only happens against bads, and you just blew half your cooldowns. Or more.

So we are left with 1 super effective guardian build, and….the rest. I find it hard to believe anybody thinks guardian is a in a good spot right now. A good 50% of the Guardian traits and utlities are NEVER used.

This post indicates that the devs either made a mistake on their Mesmer design or their Guardian design :p

I think it’s a “grass is always greener” type of situation. When I started doing WvW on my Warrior, I liked that a lot more than my Guardian. This sort of comments aren’t indicative to anything concerning the Guardian’s powerlevel or viability.

I do think that the Guardian allows for slightly more mistakes in beginning players, thanks to the constant trickle of healing.

TrOtskY.5927:

Guardian is actually NOT in a “pretty good spot” right now.
Why? The first problem is that the base stats of a Guardian leave you in a spot where you cannot survive spike damage in any way, shape or form.

So Guardians, kings of blocks and Aegis, with lots of blinds access, have NO way to survive spike damage in any way, shape or form? YEAH, OK. Guardians are MORE than adequately provided for to prevent damage, especially burst.

Guardian is a turtle.

When you see a Guardian in roaming wvw or spvp you know that 2 things will happen :
– You kill him because HE CANNOT ESCAPE
– You dont kill him but YOU ESCAPE

Its probably the only class that everyone else can kite, even on a GS/scepter/signet build that has 2 immobilization, 1 knockdown, 1 leap.

If its a signet build it wont heal and you can still kite.

If its a meditation he can heal but you can kite him to recover your health – or just permastealth if you are thief/mesmer.

Guardian is the worst roaming wvw profession, because its a full support class only good on zergs, that does not do so well alone, unless the other guy does not knows to play.

Guardians have a good chance beating a ranger, because ranger is as bad as guardian except that meditations give the guard a chance to last longer than a ranger, but again the ranger can still reset the fight by kiting and the use of cripple/kb.

The guardian needs to be buffed, to have a little more mobility to escape or chase, and his cooldowns decreased, only then he will be balanced.

OFFTOPIC:
Imho, the buff ranger is receiving is well deserved but its still too little in comparison to OP classes such as thief/war/engi/necro.

PS : I have 8 character slots, I have all professions

Rasalhague.8270:

Guardian is a turtle.

When you see a Guardian in roaming wvw or spvp you know that 2 things will happen :
– You kill him because HE CANNOT ESCAPE
– You dont kill him but YOU ESCAPE

Its probably the only class that everyone else can kite, even on a GS/scepter/signet build that has 2 immobilization, 1 knockdown, 1 leap.

If its a signet build it wont heal and you can still kite.

If its a meditation he can heal but you can kite him to recover your health – or just permastealth if you are thief/mesmer.

Guardian is the worst roaming wvw profession, because its a full support class only good on zergs, that does not do so well alone, unless the other guy does not knows to play.

Guardians have a good chance beating a ranger, because ranger is as bad as guardian except that meditations give the guard a chance to last longer than a ranger, but again the ranger can still reset the fight by kiting and the use of cripple/kb.

The guardian needs to be buffed, to have a little more mobility to escape or chase, and his cooldowns decreased, only then he will be balanced.

OFFTOPIC:
Imho, the buff ranger is receiving is well deserved but its still too little in comparison to OP classes such as thief/war/engi/necro.

PS : I have 8 character slots, I have all professions

Isn’t this comment in another thread?

I don’t know how many builds other classes have that’s actually viable in tpvp/1v1…but I’ve been dueling and tpvp for quite a long time now, and I’m always seeing interesting builds that actually work; with all weapons.
Builds in order of popularity:
Bunk Builds
Medi Builds
Medi/Bunk Hybrids
Condi Builds

Then you have things like pure “healer”/support shout builds that are seen more in wvw… All this, and the Guardian is still incredibly balanced and very efficient, in any roll played.

Obtena.7952:

TrOtskY.5927:

Guardian is actually NOT in a “pretty good spot” right now.
Why? The first problem is that the base stats of a Guardian leave you in a spot where you cannot survive spike damage in any way, shape or form.

So Guardians, kings of blocks and Aegis, with lots of blinds access, have NO way to survive spike damage in any way, shape or form? YEAH, OK. Guardians are MORE than adequately provided for to prevent damage, especially burst.

For kings of blocks and aegis, they sure do get some pretty lame block access. VoC block is a joke with a huge cooldown in team fights and won’t do anything to save you against determined groups of enemies. The Aegis refresh is also laughably long. Retreat is terrible so let’s discount that straight away. Then we are left with some decent blocks – Shelter, Focus 5, Mace 3. The worst thing about the Guardian blocks with comparison to Warrior or Engi, is that their blocks are duration based, and ours are hit based. With so many AoE’s, multi-hit melee and ranged attacks going round, our block skills by and large are relatively useless and usually only function to aid a stomp or something.

Personally, I would argue that a PU mesmer is “better” at aegis purely cos of the way aegis functions in regards to that build….but that’s another argument altogether.

The reason Guardians can’t survive spiking is because they have no mobility and no way to survive condi-ganking without speccing heavily into it, usually taking extra vitality as well. Again, this forces us down very particular traitlines and forces us to take very particular utility skills.
I won’t go too much into the whole blinding thing, but with comparison to say a thief, guard is not great at it. Focus 4 is on a long kitten cooldown and couldn’t be more easy to dodge. Sword 2 is only good on offensive meditation builds. Offensive meditation have no sustain, and usually are the first to die, like I said in my last post.

I still believe everything I said earlier is true. There are no Guardians that are successful that do not spec into vitality and toughness somewhat. There are no Guardians that are successful that run signets or spirit weapons. There are no Guardians that are successful that do not spec relatively heavy into Condi Removal. I am willing to bet that 95% of Guardian players in pvp take Absolute Resolution as a trait.

Just cos we are good at the things we are good at, it doesn’t mean we are in a good spot. There are too many things we are just not competitive with, and I don’t need to over those again as I mentioned them in my earlier post.
It’s either Shout Guardian and be strong, Medi and be average, or nothing.

TrOtskY.5927:

Obtena.7952:

TrOtskY.5927:

Guardian is actually NOT in a “pretty good spot” right now.
Why? The first problem is that the base stats of a Guardian leave you in a spot where you cannot survive spike damage in any way, shape or form.

So Guardians, kings of blocks and Aegis, with lots of blinds access, have NO way to survive spike damage in any way, shape or form? YEAH, OK. Guardians are MORE than adequately provided for to prevent damage, especially burst.

For kings of blocks and aegis, they sure do get some pretty lame block access.

That’s a pretty ignorant point of view. Our access to blocks/Aegis/blinds is the best of any profession that exists. Of course, if a player sucks, it won’t matter.

TrOtskY.5927:

The reason Guardians can’t survive spiking is because they have no mobility and no way to survive condi-ganking without speccing heavily into it, usually taking extra vitality as well.

The reason most Guardians can’t survive spiking is because they suck. Even some idiot spamming blocks and Aegis can nullify a spike run. Condi-ganking is NOT spike damage, that’s sustained damage. That IS something Guardians have more problems with than spike damage.

Your post is indicative of the simple fact that Guardians have a very high threshold for using different build variations successfully in PVP. The reason most people aren’t successful with anything but a few builds? Because most people are just average or scrubs.

Obtena, while you’re mostly right (surviving actual burst damage is pretty much the only thing Guardians should be universally okay at), that was probably overly harsh. Calling people bad is never a way to have a useful discussion.

Obtena.7952:

The reason most people aren’t successful with anything but a few builds? Because most people are just average or scrubs.

Yes and no. Some builds are just widely better than others. And some builds are significantly easier to be successful with. You can’t fault individuals players for that.

You’re forgetting Elite skill Renewed Focus that makes you invulnerable… that’s basically another Shelter without heals unless you buff up your virtues.

If you’re a guardian that can’t survive “spiking”, then you definitely need to be in a different roll and remove your self from zerg fights.. I’m a condi dps myself, you will rarely see my head pop up in groups of 4v4’s, unless I know I can aoe a total of 8k dmg and retreat back to roam. OR the aftermath and start cleaning up the zerg group nom nom.

Ynna.8769:

Obtena, while you’re mostly right (surviving actual burst damage is pretty much the only thing Guardians should be universally okay at), that was probably overly harsh. Calling people bad is never a way to have a useful discussion.

Obtena.7952:

The reason most people aren’t successful with anything but a few builds? Because most people are just average or scrubs.

Yes and no. Some builds are just widely better than others. And some builds are significantly easier to be successful with. You can’t fault individuals players for that.

Harsh? Perhaps, but considering the ridiculous statement that Guardians have lame block access, it was appropriate. I recognize some builds are better than others but I also recognize that depending on how you want to play, additional builds can be good as well if your deficiencies are addressed by other players. Let’s remember that tPVP is more than just hot join or 1 vs. 1. Playing smart with others makes up for alot of what those not-best builds lack.

Obtena.7952:

TrOtskY.5927:

Obtena.7952:

TrOtskY.5927:

Guardian is actually NOT in a “pretty good spot” right now.
Why? The first problem is that the base stats of a Guardian leave you in a spot where you cannot survive spike damage in any way, shape or form.

So Guardians, kings of blocks and Aegis, with lots of blinds access, have NO way to survive spike damage in any way, shape or form? YEAH, OK. Guardians are MORE than adequately provided for to prevent damage, especially burst.

For kings of blocks and aegis, they sure do get some pretty lame block access.

That’s a pretty ignorant point of view. Our access to blocks/Aegis/blinds is the best of any profession that exists. Of course, if a player sucks, it won’t matter.

TrOtskY.5927:

The reason Guardians can’t survive spiking is because they have no mobility and no way to survive condi-ganking without speccing heavily into it, usually taking extra vitality as well.

The reason most Guardians can’t survive spiking is because they suck. Even some idiot spamming blocks and Aegis can nullify a spike run. Condi-ganking is NOT spike damage, that’s sustained damage. That IS something Guardians have more problems with than spike damage.

Your post is indicative of the simple fact that Guardians have a very high threshold for using different build variations successfully in PVP. The reason most people aren’t successful with anything but a few builds? Because most people are just average or scrubs.

Hah, please. Your post is a self fulfilling prophecy. If only great players can use certain builds, then that must be because they are good enough to overcome the extreme deficits of the build itself. I think you can work the rest out. Ask yourself why there are so many other builds and classes in this game that do not require this “threshold of greatness” to perform to an average level. An average player should be able to perform average with a build. Not below average. This is about balance.

As I already pointed out, our blocks aren’t that great, they are on long cooldowns or are mitigated with 1 auto attack, which in a team fight is mitigated instantly. You say “king of blocks and aegis” when we don’t even has as much aegis access as a condi PU Mesmer. But please don’t just go tangential on the blocking issue. They help us survive 1v1 very well and 1vX against noobs. No noob unloads his entire cooldowns on the guardian using shelter. No noob unloads all his CC on a guard that is using stability. IMO you are looking at it from the wrong end, it is not a good guard that survives longer, it is his bad enemies that help him to to do so. A coordinated strip+immob+condi spike coverage and any non bunker guard is down instantly. He can’t escape.

Anyway, I believe you are focusing too much on one point. My point still stands overall. The guardian is extremely limited now. Mediation is barely BARELY viable and the player has to be pretty good and almost certainly a lot better than his opponents to work it succesfully. However, it has terrible sustain in tPVP, I don’t see how this is even up for argument.
Every single guardian build can be kited by almost every other class in the game, with the meditation build being the only one where you have to actually concentrate whilst doing so.
This is down to the guardians super low HP pool, and lack of mobility. It focuses our build sets on a very narrow path and means we can’t experiment much without severely weakening ourselves. Our traitlines are all over the place, and there is little synergy.

TrOtskY.5927:

Every single guardian build can be kited by almost every other class in the game, with the meditation build being the only one where you have to actually concentrate whilst doing so.
This is down to the guardians super low HP pool, and lack of mobility. It focuses our build sets on a very narrow path and means we can’t experiment much without severely weakening ourselves. Our traitlines are all over the place, and there is little synergy.

That’s why great players do well in builds outside the standard ones anyone can play … because they aren’t so narrow mindedly focused on only what their class does to kitten what they are capable of in PVP. You seem to be ignoring the fact that PVP in this game doesn’t always happen 1 vs. 1. Play smart and co-operate with others and a world of build opportunities opens up for you.

The whole concept of the Guardian class itself is team support, co-operation. I would say anyone taking a class with that concept and assessing it in a bubble has alot more to learn about PVP than they think.

Obtenna, what TrOtskY is saying isn’t that they wants to pigeonhole into one particular role. They’re saying that you need to be an above-average player to play anything except that particular role. Balance need to be had on every level of play and it’s not fun for the average-or-below Guardians to only have one viable build option.

For most players, PvP consists of doing the occasional game with random strangers. If Guardians can only have one viable build on that level (and they really have only one, maybe two viable builds for that level of play) that’s a certain imbalance.

I’ve said this before, but I don’t think that requiring allies nearby to really shine is a great thing. It’s really cool in organized PvP where you can rely on your team, but in the content that most players are playing at they can’t really do that.

I think we are all saying the same thing then. The difference is that I don’t believe that’s a problem. It’s just a consequence of the class concept and balancing.

Guardian is extremely subpar in comparison to everyone else, except ranger.
Its mobility is bad, cooldowns are long, projectiles are slow, low health pool…
Builds? what are those?
Most kiteable class, a necro can escape better with F1….
Guardian is a one trick pony that everyone can predict…..the lack of builds is the cause of it.
Oh and most classes dont need a group to be viable….all other classes have a good chance in 1v1, ofc except for ranger and guardian.
WvW roaming? Forget about it, you will be stomped, coz you cant escape from fights like other classes….so youre food.

btw I have 8 character slots, I play all classes.

I don’t think it’s realistic to compare one class to another because the concepts are different. Does Guardian work as it’s class is conceived, designed and implemented. I would say yes. If that’s ‘deficient’ when compared to other classes, players can choose other classes to play. Anet has made it VERY clear (as well as seen historically in other MMO’s) that class concepts dictate what you get and how you do stuff and that Guardian concept is where they want it to be based on the Ready Up interview on class balance.

I’d say it is realistic to compare the Guardian with other professions, since we do play with and against those other professions.

I’ve said it before that if the Guardian’s mobility doesn’t increase (which I don’t necessarily say it should), we could definitely use more ways to dictate the position of our enemies.

I can’t be the only one who does well 1v1. Blaming everything on our deficiencies is really passing the blame. I certainly agree we need natural access to 25% movement speed, preferably in adept radiance or an elite signet for synergy with dps builds, but there are many options to get close.

As it stands now, there’s a teleport on sword, a leap on greatsword and judge’s intervention. Those all work very well if used at the right time. You can add traveler’s runes for constant mobility or runes of the pack for 50% uptime on swiftness (and fury).

There are solutions, you don’t have to just slowly chase your enemy down getting kited around the point. Though, it does seem I’m pigeonholed into my runes and weapons just to stay close.

I’d rather not join the crying parade because guardians are awesome especially in wvw zergs and still easy to play namely because groups help cover our main weakness of mobility, but our blocks are simply not that great. We have nothing like the engineer’s gear shield, for example, which is on a 20s cooldown and blocks any and all attacks that aren’t unblockable. Well, actually we have shelter, but that’s our heal skill. Gear shield is merely just a skill within a utility slot.

And speaking of shields, we can block with our own shields… oh wait.

Aegis is good, and natural aegis is even better, but in larger fights when you get focused or just a lot of crap flying around, it’s not really the best. Warriors can use their invul or blocks to nullify any number of attacks in that time frame. Guardians cannot outside of their elite and to a lesser degree, shelter.

In a sense, the guardian defense is not unlike the necromancer. Their defenses are more suited for big attacks from a single enemy or two and small scale attacks and falter when focused. But the Necromancer’s death shroud is persistent as long as he can sustain life force, while the guardian’s remain single use. In some ways, even the persistency of the thief’s black powder is a more efficient defense.

Guardians aren’t individually strong, but they clearly can make the difference in wvw zerg fights with condi clears and group stability and cleave. This game just isn’t balanced around individual players.

Rasalhague.8270:

Most kiteable class, a necro can escape better with F1….

That’s a pretty cruel joke. A necro cannot run away from another class (includes guardians) unless they’re like afk or something. Necros have zero leaps or teleports that can be used to escape on a dime. And no, DS2 doesn’t count, since you can walk faster than that. Hell, even guardians can jump away. Once the necro has any form of CC landed on them, they fight or die.

There are more exotic methods of tricking people via spectral walk and the teleport wurm but those require setup and do not involve DS in any way, besides fear.

Guardians at the very least could access speed/traveler runes. In these cases, guardians will have better mobility than necros due to leaps and teleports, since the only edge the necro has by default is the speed signet or permaswiftness

Shanks.2907:

I can’t be the only one who does well 1v1. Blaming everything on our deficiencies is really passing the blame. I certainly agree we need natural access to 25% movement speed, preferably in adept radiance or an elite signet for synergy with dps builds, but there are many options to get close.

As it stands now, there’s a teleport on sword, a leap on greatsword and judge’s intervention. Those all work very well if used at the right time. You can add traveler’s runes for constant mobility or runes of the pack for 50% uptime on swiftness (and fury).

There are solutions, you don’t have to just slowly chase your enemy down getting kited around the point. Though, it does seem I’m pigeonholed into my runes and weapons just to stay close.

We have a couple of options to get close, but not a lot to stay close. And you really have to build around just getting close. From my (admittedly little) experience, the most common scenario is something like this: Judge’s Intervention combined with Greatsword 5 as an opener. You get in a couple of hits and you activate 5 again when they have dodged out of the way. They use a disengagement skill, you leap (and leap frequently has you end up everywhere except on the enemy, but that’s a different issue). They use another disengagement skill, you switch your weapon to Sword, teleport to them. You get Chilled, Crippled or Immobilized and you end up stumbling behind them. This doesn’t require superior skill on part of the opponent. The reaction to an incoming Guardian is always: create some distance.

You need a very specific build to have access to mobility as a Guardian and any class that has a weapon with some sort of movement skill and/or a CC of some sort can outrun us even then.

I should probably create a whole new thread to outline my philosophy on this issue but the basic argument would be this: It’s okay that Guardians aren’t very mobile. It’s okay that they are better at holding a specific point instead of roaming the battlefield. What is not okay is that it requires outstanding play just to stay on our opponents. If we are lacking in terms of mobility, we need ways of countering the mobility of others.