Guild Wars 2

So the devs have stated they don’t want us to have too much access to Retaliation, they don’t want it to be a 100% uptime buff that neutralises glassy burst opponents when tied with a full defensive spec.

That’s fine, and to try and change this they nerfed the duration of Retaliation across traits and skills by 50% or more since release.

However, it seems the right hand isn’t talking to the left.

The Guardian is currently built around Retaliation more than any other boon, it’s everywhere and that’s what makes the past changes and future Retaliation changes flawed.

Our class has been built to have massive access to Retaliation across weapon skills, utilities and traits.

Symbol of Wrath – 4s, available on the GS and at 25% HP from 5 Zeal.
Symbol + Leap of Faith grants Retaliation.
Symbol + Blast finisher available for Hammer and Mace Focus grants area Retaliation.

Stand Your Ground – 5s.
Save Yourselves – 5s.
Symbol of Judgement – 3s.
Tome of Wrath – 20s (only while active).

Radiance I – 3s when using Heal skill (multi ticks for healing Breeze giving 15s)

Honor I – Aegis gives 3s Retaliation when it ends. (Passive Aegis, Aegis at 50%, Aegis from Retreat, Activate Courage + Renewed Focus + Activate and 6 Runes of the Monk Aegis when healing).

Virtues II Retaliation lasts 25% longer.
Vitues IV Retaliatory Subconscious – 3s of Retaliation when CC’d.
Virtues 10 – Activating a Virtue gives – 3s. With Boon time from speccing this and 25% you gain 12s for activating all 3, pop Renewed Focus and you can do it again.

This brings me to some balance between Professions, specifically the trait that activates when CC’d.

Let’s compare with the picture I have attached.

Now some are better than others but that’s balanced by the trait level, Adept, Master and Grandmaster.

2 main points:
Compare our 3s of (Retaliation-Again!) on a 30s recharge to say the Engineer trait.
3s of Protection (best boon in the game) on a 5 second recharge!

Why do we get Retaliation again, it’s worse than everything else available to the other classes in terms of a boon or a special effect they trigger, especially with 3s duration once every 30s.

So, please can we get some other boons in our traits and some other effects.

Retaliation is a problem and all classes need to have their access to it limited, do NOT just do this by obliterating all of the Guardians Retaliation timers.

Stop giving us Retaliation, give us other boons, give us Fury, Swiftness, Protection, Regen. Or effects – Block, Burning, Immobilise, Weakness.

I would propose changing all of the Guardian Retaliation traits into other things, different boons or effects. Limit Retaliation to Weapon skills and Utilities.

i agree with you, but to modify retaliation in this way, some balance decision made in past, must be reverted\fixed.

In my opinion, the way Retaliation works and is implemented is wrong.
Retaliation should do the same damage as is incoming. It should also have a very clear visual.
It should also something that is more or less completely controlled by the player, so no Retaliation procs.

Ynna.8769:

In my opinion, the way Retaliation works and is implemented is wrong.
Retaliation should do the same damage as is incoming. It should also have a very clear visual.
It should also something that is more or less completely controlled by the player, so no Retaliation procs.

You mean something like an “active block”, like an hit with the shield every time they try to hit you lol

I think that even aegis must work in this way.
All the block source, must be controlled by the player instead of proc every X seconds or be activated by random combo.

Aegis is different, because it’s tied (mostly) to a Virtue.
But yeah, Retaliation should be actively controlled. (Although I could stomach the traits that tie it to Aegis.)
How I see Retaliation is: You see a big hit incoming (like say, you see a Warrior Bull Rushing in your direction). As a response to this, you activate a skill that grants you Retaliation. This gives you big flashy thorns around your character. A good Warrior will cancel the attack, a bad Warrior won’t. It opens more decision space for everyone involved.

Either that or they make and active buff that the guardian has to act on in order to exploit it. Retaliation could stack in intensity which increases outgoing damage and the stacks are built by opponents attacking you and when you reach 20 stacks you consume the stacks in the next 5 attacks, you retaliate.

Or that 100% of incoming damage is reflected if it hits the player while he is dodging, when affected by retaliation. This would be really nice but exploitable.

Or…. Something else, anything is better, i feel almost dirty when using it since it takes no skill what so ever to use.

The entire idea of a boon that gets relatively better the worse you are at avoiding damage is misplaced in this game and suits wow and rift where skillbased damage negation isn’t a central mechanic in the game.

In GW2 it was/is almost one of the unique sellingpoints of the game and then we have retal that does more damage the less you use that selling point. Its just weird.

The point was that the mechanic is flawed and reduces the skillgap between players that know how to avoid damage and the ones that dont know and should be erased.

Personally i would like it removed and i dont need any “compensation” tbh other then a great ranged alternative.

Good post, I agree I would like to see us get some other boons in place of all the retaliation we get currently. Once they have gone in and swapped out some of our current ways of gaining retaliation Anet should then go back and revise the nerfs to our retaliation granting abilities.

Personally i would like it removed and i dont need any “compensation” tbh other then a great ranged alternative.

ok you are an tough guy, but not all players are like you, and not all player like the hammerworld :P(im not attacking you brutal, im joking ^^)
Retaliation is our cancer, and for the sake of this cursed boon, they have “balanced” our class.
Delete retaliation is Super ok for me, but all the decision made about the reta-granting weapons, skills and trait, must be revised(not simply reverted) to mantain a balance to attack and defence.

@ganzo

:-) Hey i use plenty of retaliation, in wvw all my utilities are retaliation for sure, it doesnt change the fact that i find the boon extremely counterproductive in the game and favours greatly bunkers that requires very little skill. Hammersbuilds isnt that affected by retal anyway due to slow attackspeed so personally i can live with it.

Yepp it would definitely change balance greatly and ofc it needs to be revised. Im prepared for the agony of that and i hope it comes sooner then later.

A boon like that is close to impossible to balance since it gets relatively stronger the less dps you and the opponent does.

Brutaly.6257:

@ganzo
A boon like that is close to impossible to balance since it gets relatively stronger the less dps you and the opponent does.

Because the error its that a buff like retaliation, is a must for that game that HAVE an holy trinity, its a pve tanky buff that help to mantain aggro on you, but on a PVx oriented ACTION game, With no trinity, no active aggro mechanic(taunt) with no split mechanics (and in gw2 only 2 things are splitted for now)… well its only a mechanic that improve the lazyness of some players, and i dont think that a defensive class = lazy class.

@Ganzo
Couldnt agree more, well put.

Can we make a list of things that are affected if Retaliation would be removed? Just as a thought exercise?

OP makes some valid points.

But I don’t feel simply replacing retaliation with other boons would solve the problem. That could possibly make guardian op or under powered…we don’t know. My point is, as you mentioned guardian practically revolves around retaliation. So removing it or replacing it will cause severe issues in the long run.

So lets give a look only for the guard things:

Weapons:
Simbol of Wrath (GS 4)
Refraction (Trident 4)

Utility:
Save Yourself
Stand your ground
Signet of Judgment

Major traits:
Healer retribution (Radiance 1)
Retaliatory Subconscious (Virtues 4)
Wrathful spirit (Honor 1)
Vengeful (Virtues 2)

Minor Traits:
Virtue of Retribution(15 points on virtues)

Combo:
Light combo field: LEAP
Light combo field: BLAST