Guild Wars 2

In addition to that, don’t expect them to read lfg descriptions, dungeon categories or know the meaning of AR. That’s what peoples’ experiences are with the new tool.

Might as well just determine which auto-attack does the most damage in PVT gear, untraited and leave it at that, if we’re talking the average pug.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Might as well just determine which auto-attack does the most damage in PVT gear, untraited and leave it at that, if we’re talking the average pug.

Why not Cleric or Carrion?

(manly referred to guardians)

AndrewSX.3794:

So the pug level has gotten this low that, after not expecting them to dodge, not expecting them to gear and build properly, not expecting them to use proper tactics, now i should stop expecting them using the “\” button?

Neat.

Pretty much. Yesterday i did some CoE runs, had to pug 3 slots, we got 3 warriors, yet we had no banners until i asked for discp.
Not sure why you’re surprised tho, knowing rotations is far from the average pug hability in this game.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Might as well just determine which auto-attack does the most damage in PVT gear, untraited and leave it at that, if we’re talking the average pug.

That’s a little sensational but it’s probably closer to reality for a PUG than the Max DPS Guardian condition that was in your chart.

So how come torch is not considered when talking about maxing dps?

Torch’s #5 takes too long to actually build up damage and deal any kind of dps, it is not worth to use it just to throw #4 instead of having 6~ stacks of vulnerability, aoe blind and regeneration from focus #4, not to mention the eject button on #5.

Nothing on the torch increases dps over just auto attacking. Focus 5 can be cast without interrupting auto attack, its good damage and its nice safety aswell.

torch and shield i both love, but to me, they are definitely more PvP/WvW weapons. hard to not go focus if you’re going 1h-ed in dungeons.

quick question on rotations then. if i am sporting GS and sword/focus, and assuming vuln on blinds traited, is there an ideal time to reapply vulns throughout the fight with weapon skills? or just whenever they’re up? without interrupting either AA chain, that is..

Dune.2904:

I’m getting more and more fed up with the Guardians I’m meeting in (Speed) Dungeon Runs. The thing is:
I typically run the usual Dungeons CoF 1/2, SE 1/3, TA Up/FF, HotW1 etc. on a regular basis and as my mates and me, are sometimes not enough we add Randoms via LFG. My main class is guardian but I have a Max Gear Warrior and Mesmer aswell. So when we get a Guardian via LFG I usually switch to Mes or War. That’s where I’m getting fed up.

Problems 1 and 2 right there. Expecting to pick up a random to play bell boy for you and your buddies. Trying to use LFG for your “pro” group, that you obviously expect to play by a certain set of predefined rules…set by your and your buddies. If you expect that, then the LFG tool was not made for you.

These Guardians (wide range of Achievement Points and/or Equipment) often just add NOTHING to the success of the group. They just roam around there with their GS and deal “damage” using only GS-Skills and F1. Cond Remove? No. Aegis against Power Hits? No. Might? No. Stability? Sometimes. Heal?

Problem 3. LFG does not come with the prerequisite that anyone who joins is going to hold your hand while you walk across the street. You seem to think that a guardian “adds NOTHING to the success of the group” if they aren’t spoon feeding you and holding your hand while you faceroll into stuff that you should be dodging. Yes, a skilled guardian will use voc/retreat to block killing blows and major hits, but again…you picked from LFG…not from your hand selected pool of role players/fluffers. You should expand your in-game social circle if you want more people ready to polish your GS so you don’t have to dodge.

Why shouldn’t I trade them in for another warrior? I mean as I have to take Healing Surge instead of passive signet, abort 100Bs to dodge and take Shake it off instead of FGJ anyway I can just have another Zerk War.

You really want me to queue up the world’s smallest violin that you had to actually choose a strong heal ability instead of an open world farm passive heal? You want sympathy for that after QQing so hard about guards not taking the abilities you want them to support you with….

And when you ask them, most of the Guardians who play that way don’t even run Full Berserker Gear. Soldier Gear! Why in god’s name would you play Soldier Gear in a kittening Dungeon Run. Of course you’re going to be a serious bunker but for what? So you can die last when the rest of the group just ripped because of 25 bleeding stacks and a null field on cooldown? Congratulations you can now flame the rest of the party because they died before you. The other ones running Full Berserker Gear often just die first due to the toughness aggro and the low life pool. Why not run Healway and make sure the warriors aren’t disturbed or Knight’s with Boon duration, when the dungeon or the party setup isn’t allowing Zerker. If support isn’t for you, play a warrior kittenit!

This part is a combo of agreement and face palm. I agree that its impossibly stupid running tank builds in dungeons as you can’t actually tank in this game by design. Anybody with open eyes can see that mobs do not consistently or even regularly stick to any player…especially not the lowest damage dealer in the run. This makes tank builds extremely useless and selfish in dungeons. I agree that adds nothing. The face palm is that you actually think its other classes jobs to compensate for your faceroll in a pug….and that they should actually reroll if they aren’t serving your ego…IN A PUG! By the way…if even one member of a group is a random…its still a pug!

The numbers dont lie, Guard does out dps War. Are Nades really the way to go for engi though?? Arent bombs better dps? I feel like 9k is impossibly low… I burst with my SD Engi for higher numbers than I do with my war and my bomb kit hits hard during the 8 seconds I dont get another 2 SDs… hmm

Azure.8670:

The numbers dont lie, Guard does out dps War. Are Nades really the way to go for engi though?? Arent bombs better dps? I feel like 9k is impossibly low… I burst with my SD Engi for higher numbers than I do with my war and my bomb kit hits hard during the 8 seconds I dont get another 2 SDs… hmm

I don’t know about the strict DPS, but grenade kit yields more utility via pretty overpowered vuln stacking.

Grenade dps may be low, but it is the best vul stacking in the game right now, by far, thus making the group dps higher.

Ninja’ed.

9K is low.

Grenades, Bombs and Rifle all built with Static Discharge are on par with other DPS. In my actual testing Bombs preform the best but if you take out the Vulnerability stacks Rifle/SD is a bit higher but don’t supply Vulnerability. Also, These builds are on par with Guard GSword for DPS in these tests. Not sure how they all scale up though as GK calculates with every possible buff.

In practice Grenades/SD should perform at the same level as Guard GSword and give Vulnerability for the group. If you already have higher Vulnerability Rifle/SD will push more DPS. Bombs are the happy medium.

Blood~

I guess i won’t be able to run with you in the dungeon. Not all of us know exactly how to play. I am new to MMOs. Everything i pickup is from doing things wrong and then reading about it. I just started a Gaurdian and i’m learning on the go. I have no idea what i’m doing but hey i didn’t know what i was doing when i started my Ele and i think i have gotten much better.

The point is stop crying about other players not knowing what they are doing. Instead ask your friends to run the dungeons with you or find a group of people that run dungeons like you do and try to join up with them.

If you don’t and you randomly pick up people to play with you why not help them out instead of bashing them. Maybe they don’t live to play GW2 or other MMOs. Maybe they are learning.

Bloodgruve.6038:

9K is low.

Grenades, Bombs and Rifle all built with Static Discharge are on par with other DPS. In my actual testing Bombs preform the best but if you take out the Vulnerability stacks Rifle/SD is a bit higher but don’t supply Vulnerability. Also, These builds are on par with Guard GSword for DPS in these tests. Not sure how they all scale up though as GK calculates with every possible buff.

In practice Grenades/SD should perform at the same level as Guard GSword and give Vulnerability for the group. If you already have higher Vulnerability Rifle/SD will push more DPS. Bombs are the happy medium.

Blood~

Static Discharge gives jack for damage. It’s a nice burst in PvP but in PvE where things don’t drop in one rotation, you’re basically unloading one burst for a negligible amount of damage then twiddling your thumbs for the next 20 seconds or so.

Also, I should revise that DPS post, because recently I have discovered that my staff build does literally ALL THE DEEPS. It is #1 by a pretty sizeable margin. Adding in the additional Ascended stats, 30/20/10/10/0 Fire Staff is an outrageously high 16.5k DPS, which cleanly beats out Mesmer at #2 with 15.3k. Meanwhile a full DPS spec 30/25/0/0/15 signet warrior is only getting a miserable12.5k and 20/30/20/0/0 DPS guard is 13k.

tl;dr trying to dps with warrior is dumb, time to roll longbow healshout. Guardians are also bad, time to jump ship to ele.

still need people to provide the might stacks though

That warrior requests you remember their flag pole thingies.

Dune.2904:

And when you ask them, most of the Guardians who play that way don’t even run Full Berserker Gear. Soldier Gear! Why in god’s name would you play Soldier Gear in a kittening Dungeon Run.

Because we are boring of raising berserk players from the floor.

Seriously. In the game (PvE + Dungeons) only a few monsters are capable to one-shot you; going full berserker turns a Guardian into a glass cannon with barely 13.000 HP, which means that suddenly a ton of monsters are capable to insta-gib you, which also means that the margin for error/window for mistakes becames very, very narrow.

Now take a look about the most repeteadly done path in the game: CoF P1. The final boss is the most well known fight in the whole game and still you will find people falling back under the AoE knockbacks, failing in the use of evades, blocks or stability. But people in PUGs -fortunately- doesn’t usually die due they take corservative approachs about their builds to compensate their lack of skill or incidentals (which doesn’t only involves knowledge and practice but also things like lag). At the end, the job gets done, everyone lives and instead of taking “x” time takes “x2”. No big drama.

Full damage builds in dungeons only works when 1) Everyone knowns what must do (which doesn’t apply in PUGs) and 2) Everyone goes full damage. So, you can kill, lets say, the incinerators, so fast that they are dead before their damage became a threat. But when only half of the party goes full berserk then bad things happens, because sometimes foes doesn’t die fast enough, and then the “squishy pro elite zerks” start to fall like flies.

I run a 80% berserker Warrior in dungeons (weapons, trinkets, most of armor) but for my Guardian I like a lot more to use Soldier (P/v/t) armor + Soldier Runes (and a mix between zerk and knight trinkets). I provide group stability, group regenaration, group pasive healing, group aegis, group damage reduction, and if the team is squishy I can bring Tome of Valor for huge team healings. I also provide Wall of Reflection 35% of time if is needed, an unvaluable tool which in dungeons as Arah and high level Fractals successful prevents team wipes.

“Bu-bu-bu-but… is slow!” Who cares. We are talking here about PUGs, if you want it faster then play with the teammates from your guild or something else. There’s another reason for starters to not going full zerk as a Guardian: economy. Soldier, Knight or Celestial stats are usefull for every content in the game, full berserker si useless in most of WvW encouters (outside duels) for Guardians.

Buran.3796:

Full damage builds in dungeons only works when 1) Everyone knowns what must do (which doesn’t apply in PUGs) and 2) Everyone goes full damage. So, you can kill, lets say, the incinerators, so fast that they are dead before their damage became a threat. But when only half of the party goes full berserk then bad things happens, because sometimes foes doesn’t die fast enough, and then the “squishy pro elite zerks” start to fall like flies.

Quite interesting assumption … but wrong. Neither point 1) nor point 2) are necessary prerequisites of success for full zerker builds, no matter whether on guard, warr or wherever. What you describe are bad players, which is not related to zerker stuff itself.

Any good player won’t down no matter what the group does (or he’ll go down as the last one). Even for me, and I’m a rather mediocre player, the main cause of death is not failure due to full zerker, but failure when trying to revive on of those PVT-whatever-guys who got downed …

Buran.3796:

Because we are boring of raising berserk players from the floor.

Right.

Dune.2904:

(Sry for the grammar and spelling)
I’m getting more and more fed up with the Guardians I’m meeting in (Speed) Dungeon Runs. The thing is:
I typically run the usual Dungeons CoF 1/2, SE 1/3, TA Up/FF, HotW1 etc. on a regular basis and as my mates and me, are sometimes not enough we add Randoms via LFG. My main class is guardian but I have a Max Gear Warrior and Mesmer aswell. So when we get a Guardian via LFG I usually switch to Mes or War. That’s where I’m getting fed up.
These Guardians (wide range of Achievement Points and/or Equipment) often just add NOTHING to the success of the group. They just roam around there with their GS and deal “damage” using only GS-Skills and F1. Cond Remove? No. Aegis against Power Hits? No. Might? No. Stability? Sometimes. Heal? No way.
Why shouldn’t I trade them in for another warrior? I mean as I have to take Healing Surge instead of passive signet, abort 100Bs to dodge and take Shake it off instead of FGJ anyway I can just have another Zerk War. Because compared to my Guardian (I have a complete Zerk Gear for SoloPVE) my Warrior deals so much more Damage against stationary targets (Mesmer or Corner Pull) with the GS/Axe Weapon Swap Build.
And when you ask them, most of the Guardians who play that way don’t even run Full Berserker Gear. Soldier Gear! Why in god’s name would you play Soldier Gear in a kittening Dungeon Run. Of course you’re going to be a serious bunker but for what? So you can die last when the rest of the group just ripped because of 25 bleeding stacks and a null field on cooldown? Congratulations you can now flame the rest of the party because they died before you. The other ones running Full Berserker Gear often just die first due to the toughness aggro and the low life pool. Why not run Healway and make sure the warriors aren’t disturbed or Knight’s with Boon duration, when the dungeon or the party setup isn’t allowing Zerker. If support isn’t for you, play a warrior kittenit!
I know this is a lot of rant but I just had to write it down somwhere, because in my personal view it has gotten a lot worse over the last months. This has also something to due with the active meta though:
The easiest and fastest way to do most of the dungeons in my opinion still is the 1 Offensive Support (Mes/Thief) 1 Defensive Support (Guard) 3 DPS (Warrior). Which doesn’t mean it can’t be done with other setups that can even be easier but not faster though.

I stopped playing a support guardian and then I stopped playing altogether. Why? Because elitist cretins that have never played an mmorpg in their entire lives kept kicking me from every single pug I tried to go into as a support guardian. They told me berserker or nothing, and I did not want to play that way, so I just quit. If Anet hasn’t changed this utterly stupid elitist system and made other stats useful in dungeons/PvE in general by now, then I didn’t see them doing it in the future so I quit.

Galtrix.7369:

I stopped playing a support guardian and then I stopped playing altogether. Why? Because elitist cretins that have never played an mmorpg in their entire lives kept kicking me from every single pug I tried to go into as a support guardian. They told me berserker or nothing, and I did not want to play that way, so I just quit. If Anet hasn’t changed this utterly stupid elitist system and made other stats useful in dungeons/PvE in general by now, then I didn’t see them doing it in the future so I quit.

I’ve played tons of mmos, and i use zerkers, why? Because i can adapt, if you think the same mindset you used at WoW, Aion, Rift, L2, or whatever mmo you played before will work here, you’re wrong. Plus, i’m pretty sure you tried to join zerker only runs, without reading, or worse, reading and thinking you could slip thru the gear ping. You’re exactly the kind of player i don’t want in my groups, even when i don’t put “zerker only” on the ad (and i usually don’t), because it seems you can’t learn and just want someone to pat your head and say you’re right.

In an attempt to defend Engi’s low ranking I’m posting some info here. Since this is the Guardian forums I will spoiler it.

Engineer 14K DPS?

Blood~

Everyone keeps saying pugs are crap and can’t play for kitten (pretty much) but remember, to the pug you are also a pug…

deadatspawn.6045:

If you don’t and you randomly pick up people to play with you why not help them out instead of bashing them. Maybe they don’t live to play GW2 or other MMOs. Maybe they are learning.

Preach, bro. Everyone was a newb at some point.

On topic, I actually ran my newly-minted level 80 Guardian in CoE 1 the other day, with yellow Zerker’s armor/weapons and Valk trinkets, Soldier Runes, 10/30/0/30/0 traits, various shouts on my utility bar, and Sword/Focus (Staff backup). I earned 40 new gray hairs trying to keep everyone (including myself) up with Aegis/Blinds/etc. It only went badly when the fights were too long and my cooldowns were at their limit. Had a professional Warrior in the group, who was a bro and tried to get people into the right spots without being a kitten about it.

Would PUG again.

Relentliss.2170:

Did you complete the run?

If so I am wondering what the issue is.

The OP mentioned that these were speed-runs.

Galtrix.7369:

Dune.2904:

(Sry for the grammar and spelling)
I’m getting more and more fed up with the Guardians I’m meeting in (Speed) Dungeon Runs. The thing is:
I typically run the usual Dungeons CoF 1/2, SE 1/3, TA Up/FF, HotW1 etc. on a regular basis and as my mates and me, are sometimes not enough we add Randoms via LFG. My main class is guardian but I have a Max Gear Warrior and Mesmer aswell. So when we get a Guardian via LFG I usually switch to Mes or War. That’s where I’m getting fed up.
These Guardians (wide range of Achievement Points and/or Equipment) often just add NOTHING to the success of the group. They just roam around there with their GS and deal “damage” using only GS-Skills and F1. Cond Remove? No. Aegis against Power Hits? No. Might? No. Stability? Sometimes. Heal? No way.
Why shouldn’t I trade them in for another warrior? I mean as I have to take Healing Surge instead of passive signet, abort 100Bs to dodge and take Shake it off instead of FGJ anyway I can just have another Zerk War. Because compared to my Guardian (I have a complete Zerk Gear for SoloPVE) my Warrior deals so much more Damage against stationary targets (Mesmer or Corner Pull) with the GS/Axe Weapon Swap Build.
And when you ask them, most of the Guardians who play that way don’t even run Full Berserker Gear. Soldier Gear! Why in god’s name would you play Soldier Gear in a kittening Dungeon Run. Of course you’re going to be a serious bunker but for what? So you can die last when the rest of the group just ripped because of 25 bleeding stacks and a null field on cooldown? Congratulations you can now flame the rest of the party because they died before you. The other ones running Full Berserker Gear often just die first due to the toughness aggro and the low life pool. Why not run Healway and make sure the warriors aren’t disturbed or Knight’s with Boon duration, when the dungeon or the party setup isn’t allowing Zerker. If support isn’t for you, play a warrior kittenit!
I know this is a lot of rant but I just had to write it down somwhere, because in my personal view it has gotten a lot worse over the last months. This has also something to due with the active meta though:
The easiest and fastest way to do most of the dungeons in my opinion still is the 1 Offensive Support (Mes/Thief) 1 Defensive Support (Guard) 3 DPS (Warrior). Which doesn’t mean it can’t be done with other setups that can even be easier but not faster though.

I stopped playing a support guardian and then I stopped playing altogether. Why? Because elitist cretins that have never played an mmorpg in their entire lives kept kicking me from every single pug I tried to go into as a support guardian. They told me berserker or nothing, and I did not want to play that way, so I just quit. If Anet hasn’t changed this utterly stupid elitist system and made other stats useful in dungeons/PvE in general by now, then I didn’t see them doing it in the future so I quit.

You didn’t want to play well so you quit.

And this is why the gw2 playerbase is awful, they like to play badly and not be told they’re playing badly.

colesy.8490:

And this is why the gw2 playerbase is awful, they like to play badly and not be told they’re playing badly.

As if it was only GW2 – I still have contact to some people who continued the guide I originally wrote in WoW BC and they have exactly the same issue. So it’s a safe bet that this is a problem of the whole MMO landscape (and beyond, probably).

CptAurellian.9537:

colesy.8490:

And this is why the gw2 playerbase is awful, they like to play badly and not be told they’re playing badly.

As if it was only GW2 – I still have contact to some people who continued the guide I originally wrote in WoW BC and they have exactly the same issue. So it’s a safe bet that this is a problem of the whole MMO landscape (and beyond, probably).

idk man, it’s pretty rife here. I’d say that it’s worse in GW2 than other mmo’s I’ve played. The carebear kitten is really sort of encouraged and nurtured in this game and it shows everytime I join a pug dungeon team and it has a bearbow ranger and a clerics guard who doesn’t use virtues and all that kinda deal.

I’ve refrained from commenting because it was about speed runs, which I do not do. However, “play badly”? You should really quantify that with “at speed runs” or something, because generalizing like that’s largely unfair. Not system optimal is not bad. You can wear other armor types (zerker’s too, its a fine type, don’t misunderstand my point here) and so long as you don’t drop all the time and are polite in the group, then you’re hardly bad at this game.

At best you can say you’re more skilled at certain aspects of the game then others, in the same way a professional sportsmen is better than a highschooler or college kid doing the same thing. None of them are bad, or they wouldn’t be playing or improving, the professional is just further down the same path. He’d hardly insult people for not being where he is, he’d give his advice, and leave it at that. Not berate others for taking his viewpoints. More experienced != right about everything for everybody.

At worst, you’re the sportsman who’s still in highschool or college trying to use his own skill at something as an excuse to lord over those who potentially have no interest in what your game is. So your words don’t get through to them and all they hear is “Sound and Fury, signifying Nothing.”

Edit: It is worth noting that it seems like Galtrix brought a little personal baggage into the wider discussion regarding specifically speedruns. Yes he should have been more polite, but neither of you should let this deteriorate into an insult match. We’re all better than that here.

Oxxy.7068:

Galtrix.7369:

I stopped playing a support guardian and then I stopped playing altogether. Why? Because elitist cretins that have never played an mmorpg in their entire lives kept kicking me from every single pug I tried to go into as a support guardian. They told me berserker or nothing, and I did not want to play that way, so I just quit. If Anet hasn’t changed this utterly stupid elitist system and made other stats useful in dungeons/PvE in general by now, then I didn’t see them doing it in the future so I quit.

I’ve played tons of mmos, and i use zerkers, why? Because i can adapt, if you think the same mindset you used at WoW, Aion, Rift, L2, or whatever mmo you played before will work here, you’re wrong. Plus, i’m pretty sure you tried to join zerker only runs, without reading, or worse, reading and thinking you could slip thru the gear ping. You’re exactly the kind of player i don’t want in my groups, even when i don’t put “zerker only” on the ad (and i usually don’t), because it seems you can’t learn and just want someone to pat your head and say you’re right.

And that is why Guild Wars 2 is utterly stupid. Let me give you three types of people that play Guild Wars 2.

1. The people that have never played another mmorpg before.
2. The people that refuse to acknowledge GW2 failed at being an “mmorpg”.
3. The people that genuinely enjoy themselves and are content with it because they don’t see anything wrong with the game. Otherwise known as “Whiteknights”.

You seem to be under the number 2 and number 3 categories. In an mmorpg, you should not have to “adapt” unless there is a major nerf to your class, in which case you come up with a better version of your previous build. You cannot do this in GW2 when your build is nerfed into oblivion. You are forced into different builds that you do not like to play. GW2 is not an mmorpg and never will be… sorry to burst your bubble.

Ignore the title of that video and watch the first 10 minutes. Continue to be a whiteknight if you wish, but GW2 is not an mmorpg and never was. When you have pretty much no choice in what build you use, it is not an mmorpg.

Galatrix – that was just as general as they were being and just as rude. To everyone else playing the game. If you don’t like the game that’s fine. Personal tastes stand for a lot. But please don’t insult the intelligence of those playing. Just stay tuned until they either fix the game enough that you’d want to play it again while making some polite suggestions to help attain your vision, or don’t and go. But insulting people won’t win you any allies.

Also I disagree greatly with what I heard in that video and I only got to the part on risks.
I hate risk and avoid it, but I value those willing to take it. Its the soul source of major forward motion in anything done. I’d have recreated GW with a few changes. They tried to give us an entirely new game. One I’m enjoying, even in spite of the bugs and changes I’d like to see made.

And zerkers isn’t required to clear content, so you have a choice in build. But let’s not revisit CoDzilla arguments part 2.

Galtrix.7369:

And that is why Guild Wars 2 is utterly stupid. Let me give you three types of people that play Guild Wars 2.

1. The people that have never played another mmorpg before.
2. The people that refuse to acknowledge GW2 failed at being an “mmorpg”.
3. The people that genuinely enjoy themselves and are content with it because they don’t see anything wrong with the game. Otherwise known as “Whiteknights”.

You seem to be under the number 2 and number 3 categories. In an mmorpg, you should not have to “adapt” unless there is a major nerf to your class, in which case you come up with a better version of your previous build. You cannot do this in GW2 when your build is nerfed into oblivion. You are forced into different builds that you do not like to play. GW2 is not an mmorpg and never will be… sorry to burst your bubble.

And who said i don’t see anything wrong with this game? I’ve got my fair share of things that i found stupid, i just don’t think that build variety is one of’em. Plus, no one is forcing you to play as X instead of Y, what nobody likes is when we ask for X, and then people like you join, using Y and thinking they have the right to be carried thru content by everyone else. Want to play Y? Fine, get a group of people playing Z, Y, B, A and C or whatever letter they want, instead of joining any group asking for X.

@Bold: Bullkitten, and that’s about it. All this “GW2 is not a MMORPG” is the most bullkitten argument i’ve ever came across in this entire forum.

I’m a proponent for Zerker runs. But I enjoy GW2 so much because of the sheer number of builds you can mess with. I will never kick a pug for any build they run.

GW2 is absolutely an MMORPG, it fits the definition perfectly.

I do miss the days of Everquest and Ascherons Call, when people played for fun and were happy to reach out over the internet to like minded gamers. Since the popularity of MMO’s has risen so much we get all sorts of jerks here now but there’s not much we can do about it.

Find a guild with some good people, run whatever build you want. Support is alive and well in WvW too. I will take my support Guard buddy over an elitist jerk Zerker any day. I will never stop hoping he goes full Zerker some day though

Blood~

Galtrix.7369:

When you have pretty much no choice in what build you use, it is not an mmorpg.

So does vanilla WoW fail to be an MMO (don’t know about post burning crusade as I stopped playing before then)? In raid progression, each class essentially had one or two builds that were required to help the guild progress in the difficult content. Shows what I know…I guess.

Bloodgruve.6038:

In an attempt to defend Engi’s low ranking I’m posting some info here. Since this is the Guardian forums I will spoiler it.

Engineer 14K DPS?

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Static Discharge gives jack for damage. It’s a nice burst in PvP but in PvE where things don’t drop in one rotation, you’re basically unloading one burst for a negligible amount of damage then twiddling your thumbs for the next 20 seconds or so.

@GK

From what I can tell you’re calculating Engi DPS with Grenades and Blowtorch. Also, I think you’re calculations assume 25 stacks of Vulnerability and Might independent of the classes ability to stack them, and a lot of other buffs. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I did some in-game testing and this is what I got. Factoring out Vulnerability from the base damage as I believe your spreadsheet does. Tests with Zerker setup.

Rifle/Grenades/SD does ~20% more DPS then Blowtorch/Grenades.
Rifle/SD with RT, TK and PBR does 33% more DPS.
Rifle/SD with RT, TK and EG4 does 38% more DPS.
If you factor damage from Modified Ammunition with all Conditions on the target 38% goes to 56% more DPS then Grenades/Blowtorch.

I’ve also tested Zerker vs Rampager Grenades and Zerker is just a bit higher.

Depending on how damage scales up we could be looking at potentially taking 9K up to 14K. I’d be happy to go into more detail if you’d like.

Again, please correct me if I’m wrong on any assumptions I’ve made.

Blood~

Give me your builds and I will model this once I get home. I’m pretty sure Static Discharge/Rifle is going to come out as crap but we’ll see.

I’ve refrained from commenting because it was about speed runs, which I do not do. However, “play badly”? You should really quantify that with “at speed runs” or something, because generalizing like that’s largely unfair. Not system optimal is not bad. You can wear other armor types (zerker’s too, its a fine type, don’t misunderstand my point here) and so long as you don’t drop all the time and are polite in the group, then you’re hardly bad at this game.

A lack of understanding of the game’s weapon abilities, utility skills and encounters makes for a bad player.

Trying to be “tanky” when you can’t tank and where active damage mitigation is king, using the wrong utility skills and/or not swapping skills, placing the wrong combo fields at the wrong place and time (had this happen in TA a little while ago in a guild run, all I wanted was a fire field for banner blasts but people keep doing dumb stuff like dropping dark fields and light fields. No, retaliation, you are not relevant against 500k HP sponges.

To sum it up, poor understanding of mechanics makes for a bad player. Many pugs don’t understand the game’s mechanics and have a very warped perception of what is “good”. On an unrelated tangent, take the cries of “hundred blades OP” – today in Cursed Shore I took my warrior, used for great justice and then killed a risen noble. It died at the end of the 3.5s channel. I then waited for cooldown, used fgj again and killed a risen noble with axe auto. It died with the final hit which concluded the 3.6s axe auto chain. Thinking 100b is OP because of big number is just poor perception skills, just how a guardian thinking stacking healing power and toughness makes them tanky demonstrates a poor level of perception and a lack of understanding of the game’s unreliable aggro mechanics and the inability to group heal through burst damage.

All you’re really doing is demonstrating my point of bad players not wanting to be told they’re bad. I like to bring this up every now and then, but Guang telling us that classes X, Y and Z do good DPS and all of us jerking to hundred blades and warriors OP, and then blanking him just, in hindsight not only made us look bad but just showed that we didn’t really understand the game as well as we think we did.

Bumbler.7581:

Galtrix.7369:

When you have pretty much no choice in what build you use, it is not an mmorpg.

So does vanilla WoW fail to be an MMO (don’t know about post burning crusade as I stopped playing before then)? In raid progression, each class essentially had one or two builds that were required to help the guild progress in the difficult content. Shows what I know…I guess.

I honestly have no clue as to what you’re alluding to. I’ve played WoW since the day it came out and I have never felt like there was a lack of build variety. Ever. I tanked, dps’d, and healed on my Druid depending upon the situation. Same with my Paladin. In GW2 it’s zerk or nothing for PvE.

If you’re not to worry about max-dps, you can just carry dungeons just fine with

0/15/30/20/5
knight armour, zerker trinkets.

I’d say 0/30/0/30/10 would be the ultimate carry build, while 10/30/0/0/30 is the “I’m in a good group, just smoothing a few rough edges” build. Obviously take out 5 in virtues in to honour if the encounters in that dungeon are evade-intensive.

Pugging with my Guard:
0/30/0/30/10 – 10/30/0/20/10 (depends if i need PoV, manly.)
Sword/Focus fixed. Secondary set swapped on the fly (usually GS or Hammer. Scepter and Staff – TA only – are used too if needed),
Zerk trinkets and weapons.
Knight Armor (with Soldier Runes).

Babysit bad pugs, contribute decently to dps if you see you’ve got a decent group.

About “not speedrunner then bad player?” thing.
No, if you’re not speedrunning doesn’t mean you’re a bad player.
But if you’re using the “i’m not speedrunning” sentence as excuse to do not use your brain while building your char, equipping your char and playing your char, then yes, you’re a bad player.

Example: a Warrior who say “I’m not speedrunning or min/maxing, so i trow in Knight gear in the zerk mix for extra survivability” but still uses GS + Axe/Mace rotation, banners, 30/0/0/10/30 build is a decent player who isn’t speedrunning, so don’t bother with min/max his char to the extreme.
A Warrior playing a full support Hammer Healing Shout build with Cleric/Shaman gear and facetanking every encounter is just a kitten .

Well I think I’ll respectfully bow out now. I believe we’re using slightly different quantification for what’s bad in the game and perhaps how we’d like to approach playing it. And I think that’s fine, so long as when we’re pugging we try not to step on one another’s toes. (speaking figuratively. I’m just saying I think we can be respectful of one another’s positions without agreeing.)

And, as always, don’t think I decrying the importance of optimizing a build towards being useful. I simply don’t think that, in a casual pickup group, particular builds are contributing so little they should never be used. But that’s a personal opinion.

So you’re saying a lack of understanding of game mechanics doesn’t make for a bad player?

When you first get a game and need to learn it all, you’re not actually bad at it? Of course you are. It’s just that these pugs have been playing for hundreds of hours, so even though their understanding hasn’t progressed from their first ten hours they’re apparently not bad.

I didn’t see him say that … does everything have to be an argument starter with you? People play their way, you play yours. If you don’t like it, don’t play with those people. Find people that do share your game values and play with them. If yoru values are so prevalent that many people share them, then it should be no problem for you to do that. Problem solved.

Yes, they play their way, but they do so because they are either hipster or don’t understand why “tanky” and “healer” characters don’t work, i.e. they’re bad players.

I don’t see why it’s hard to admit that.

They play their way because they have different gaming values than others do. That doesn’t define them as bad. Their values are the reason they enjoy continue playing. You aren’t going to have a compelling argument to convince them the reason they derive pleasure from the game is ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’. That goes to my original question to you .. why is this always some argument with you? Even if you COULD convince someone the reason they play is bad, berating them is probably the least compelling way to do it.

You’re both arguing semantics, it’s never going to reach a conclusion.

Obtena.7952:

They play their way because they have different gaming values than others do. That doesn’t define them as bad.

Then who is bad?

No, really, because following your idea i guess somebody playing naked without dodging with only off hands useless utilities and no traits is just “Playing with a different gaming value”.

Enlighten me.

It’s not even about playing tanky builds. People are using tanky gear that allows them to complete a content without adapting. Give them no passive defences and they most likely won’t complete a content which would have normally forced them to rethink their approach.

They are bad because they don’t think at all while using wrong skills. Using bad gear is being an ignorant or casual. Using wrong skills is being bad.